Sorcerer: Recover Sorcery Points on Short Rest

[Easy_Lee]

The sorcerer needs a buff, polling as one of the two least satisfying classes (http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?4403-2017-D-D-5E-Class-Satisfaction-Survey-Results). I don't think the class needs a huge buff and I would not want the class to change to be the same as other spell casters. But I do think the sorcerer needs improvement.

Recovering some sorcery points on a short rest might be the ticket. If I made this change, I'm not sure how many points I would have the sorcerer recover, nor what the scaling should be. Starting at 1 and ending at 4 (per the tiers of play) might be reasonable.

Another option (that could be combined with the first) is to convert all sorcerer spell casting to use sorcery points, similar to the spell point variant in the DMG. Some tables already do this. This would remove the need for Flexible Casting, simplifying the class and removing sketchy interactions with warlock spell slots.

What are the playground's thoughts?

[strangebloke]

The sorcerer needs a buff, polling as one of the two least satisfying classes (http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?4403-2017-D-D-5E-Class-Satisfaction-Survey-Results). I don't think the class needs a huge buff and I would not want the class to change to be the same as other spell casters. But I do think the sorcerer needs improvement.

Recovering some sorcery points on a short rest might be the ticket. If I made this change, I'm not sure how many points I would have the sorcerer recover, nor what the scaling should be. Starting at 1 and ending at 4 (per the tiers of play) might be reasonable.

Another option (that could be combined with the first) is to convert all sorcerer spell casting to use sorcery points, similar to the spell point variant in the DMG. Some tables already do this. This would remove the need for Flexible Casting, simplifying the class and removing sketchy interactions with warlock spell slots.

What are the playground's thoughts?

I think changing it to spell points is a pretty sensible, lightweight change that won't screw over balance, of the ones you listed.

Most of Sorcerer's problems don't have anything to with power, as has been discussed ad nauseaum. Rather, they're not very intuitive to build and it's easy to build a less-than-effectual character if you aren't careful. A few spells known as a bonus from the subclass wouldn't be a nightmare, IMO.

[Mortis_Elrod]

I’d be wary of the spell Cat Nap, from Xanathars. Besides that no issue

[adolann]

I’d be wary of the spell Cat Nap, from Xanathars. Besides that no issue

Probably should just give it the same restrictions as the Land Druid and Wizard recovery features (i.e., only usable one short rest per long rest). Scale it somewhat similarly, and it should be reasonable.

[Ganymede]

Probably should just give it the same restrictions as the Land Druid and Wizard recovery features (i.e., only usable one short rest per long rest). Scale it somewhat similarly, and it should be reasonable.

But spell points ARE the sorcerer's version of Arcane Recovery and Natural Recovery. If you give sorcerers spell points and a sorcererous recovery, you're letting them have twice what other casters get once.

[Easy_Lee]

Most of Sorcerer's problems don't have anything to with power, as has been discussed ad nauseaum. Rather, they're not very intuitive to build and it's easy to build a less-than-effectual character if you aren't careful. A few spells known as a bonus from the subclass wouldn't be a nightmare, IMO.

Good reminder. I wonder if changing spells known on a long rest (as druids and clerics do) and the option to change Metamagic when leveling up would be too powerful.

[Blood of Gaea]

You could just multiclass into Warlock. Metamatic is already an extra power the Sorcerer gets, I don't think just giving them more points will solve anything.

[Theodoxus]

I did two things:
1) Sorcerers recover 2 expended sorcery points on a short rest.
2) Added a feat that recovers 1/2 your level of expended sorcery points when you roll initiative, and Sorcerous Restoration restores all sorcery points when you roll initiative or take a short rest.

Noting that they only get expended sorcery points is important; don't want to make the mistake of letting them stack points.

Using the spell point variant would also work, but my players were less enthusiastic about tracking points like that. (I personally love it, and jump at the chance to play anything with spell points instead.)

ETA: I just remembered that I also grant sorcerers additional spells known equal to their charisma mod.

[Innocent_bystan]

Another option (that could be combined with the first) is to convert all sorcerer spell casting to use sorcery points, similar to the spell point variant in the DMG. Some tables already do this. This would remove the need for Flexible Casting, simplifying the class and removing sketchy interactions with warlock spell slots.


I'm testing this in my current campaign (lvl 6 at the moment). It is a serious power boost for the sorcerer. It is also a lot of fun for the sorcerer's player (and not just because of the power boost).

The main difference in playstyle is the abundance of sorcery points to metamagic with. Suddenly Quicken Spell isn't all that expensive, every spell can be Heightened and so on. This also allows sorcerers to conserve resources somewhat better: there is now a 'slow burn'-option, i.e. metamagiced cantrips.

Combine this with the option to throw a ridiculous amount of fireballs (because: no slots per level) and I definitely understand why this is a very popular houserule. For once, the wizard's player is jealous and not vice-versa.

I can only recommend it. Too bad the DM of the campaign I play in won't allow it.

[Blood of Gaea]

The Wizard is jealous of the Sorcerer for their Metamagic, and the Sorcerer is jealous of the Wizard for the spell selection flexibility. Converting a Sorcerer to spell points is absolutely 100% broken from a balance point of view.

Not to say you can't do it as homebrew, but having it be official would be ridiculous.

[Easy_Lee]

The Wizard is jealous of the Sorcerer for their Metamagic, and the Sorcerer is jealous of the Wizard for the spell selection flexibility. Converting a Sorcerer to spell points is absolutely 100% broken from a balance point of view.

Not to say you can't do it as homebrew, but having it be official would be ridiculous.

Suppose it was done but the total number of points did not equal the total number of combined spell slot levels that a wizard can access. Combine this with some short rest recovery and it might be balanced.

[Nifft]

The obvious caveat seems to be: Ensure you can only refill or "create" an expended spell slot by merging Sorcery Points.

Beyond that, it'd be nice if there were more uses for Sorcery Points, specifically more subclass-relevant uses. The dragon sorcerer's elemental resistance is a good one, but there could be significantly more.


Finally, a short-rest point system that lines up exactly with the Monk's resource gives an obvious advantage -- you can declare that Sorcerers and Monks use the same resource, and therefore they are able to multi-class well.

[Blood of Gaea]

Suppose it was done but the total number of points did not equal the total number of combined spell slot levels that a wizard can access. Combine this with some short rest recovery and it might be balanced.
Not unless it was a significantly lower number. The problem isn't how many spells they can cast a day, it's that they can conserve the majority of their points to cast their highest level spells multiple times. If you go low enough that that's not a problem, you basically just made a Warlock.

[MrStabby]

The Wizard is jealous of the Sorcerer for their Metamagic, and the Sorcerer is jealous of the Wizard for the spell selection flexibility. Converting a Sorcerer to spell points is absolutely 100% broken from a balance point of view.

Not to say you can't do it as homebrew, but having it be official would be ridiculous.

Yeah, sorcerer is already one of the most powerful classes - at least in combat. Giving them more of anything like this is totally uncalled for.

If you want to boost sorcerer but keep the game balanced (or a narrow definition of it anyway) i would look at out of combat boosts. Maybe a metamagic that lets you cast a ritual spell from any list or similar (for an appropriate amount of SP).

[Aett_Thorn]

The sorcerer needs a buff, polling as one of the two least satisfying classes (http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?4403-2017-D-D-5E-Class-Satisfaction-Survey-Results). I don't think the class needs a huge buff and I would not want the class to change to be the same as other spell casters. But I do think the sorcerer needs improvement.

Recovering some sorcery points on a short rest might be the ticket. If I made this change, I'm not sure how many points I would have the sorcerer recover, nor what the scaling should be. Starting at 1 and ending at 4 (per the tiers of play) might be reasonable.

Another option (that could be combined with the first) is to convert all sorcerer spell casting to use sorcery points, similar to the spell point variant in the DMG. Some tables already do this. This would remove the need for Flexible Casting, simplifying the class and removing sketchy interactions with warlock spell slots.

What are the playground's thoughts?

Just to point out: least satisfying =/= imbalanced. Something can be very well balanced, but not fun. If so, changing it to increase the power without taking a look at how it fits in the overall balance of the game is problematic.

[Zene]

My 2 cents: I don't think this solution is all that broken. But I do think it doesn't address the problem.

Sorcerers rank low on the "satisfying classes" scale, IMO, for exactly one reason: Extremely restricted spells known. They have very few to begin with, then by the time they hit 11th level they're only getting one more spell known every two levels; and once they hit 17, they get no more spells known for the rest of the game!

You can do all kinds of tweaks, even make them twice as powerful as they already are (which is quite powerful); but unless you give them more spells known, they're still going to be unsatisfying for most players to play.

[Easy_Lee]

Just to point out: least satisfying =/= imbalanced. Something can be very well balanced, but not fun. If so, changing it to increase the power without taking a look at how it fits in the overall balance of the game is problematic.

You have a point but, in this case, the balance is skewed. Sorcerers have fewer spells known, smaller spell lists, and no ritual casting compared to wizards. While sorcerers have Metamagic and sorcery points, most wizard archetypes allow the wizard to regain lower level spell slots upon casting a higher level spell of the correct school. Optimized, that can lead to a wizard casting more spells per day than a sorcerer, not less, especially when we consider ritual casting.

The biggest complaint I've seen regarding sorcerers is that they run out of sorcery points too quickly in the first two tiers of play. Since most play happens in the first two tiers of play, it's usually the case that sorcerers expend their one edge over wizards too early in the day unless they play very conservatively.

Lack of spells known is the second biggest complaint I've seen. The third is that, since everyone casts spells now the way sorcerers used to, sorcerers no longer feel like they have an identity. Some homebrew combines sorcerer and warlock into a single class for this reason.

[Daphne]

I would give the Sorcerer the same number of spell known the Bard has, and also give the class the Ritual Casting feature.

[Blood of Gaea]

You can do all kinds of tweaks, even make them twice as powerful as they already are (which is quite powerful); but unless you give them more spells known, they're still going to be unsatisfying for most players to play.
This would be the key to it, giving Sorcerers even a handful of more spells would ease up on the player a lot. Having to be extremely stingy about your spell selection is bummer for making a fun PC to play.

I would probably give them an extra spell at 11th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th level. That puts them up to 20 spells know, rather than 15. Combine that with a decent item for casting spells and you have a Sorcerer with a decent chunk of options, but still notably less than a Wizard.

[Daphne]

that can lead to a wizard casting more spells per day than a sorcerer, not less, especially when we consider ritual casting.

Wizards already cast more spells every day thanks to Arcane Recovery.

[Easy_Lee]

This would be the key to it, giving Sorcerers even a handful of more spells would ease up on the player a lot. Having to be extremely stingy about your spell selection is bummer for making a fun PC to play.

I would probably give them an extra spell at 11th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th level. That puts them up to 20 spells know, rather than 15. Combine that with a decent item for casting spells and you have a Sorcerer with a decent chunk of options, but still notably less than a Wizard.

As most play occurs at levels 1-10, your suggestion would accomplish little at the typical table. It also doesn't fix the bigger problem: sorcerers have no identity and severely limited access to their one unique mechanic.

[Blood of Gaea]

I would give the Sorcerer the same number of spell known the Bard has, and also give the class the Ritual Casting feature.
Actually, this is probably a better idea, it would spread the spells out more, and 22 really is still a reasonable amount.


As most play occurs at levels 1-10, your suggestion would accomplish little at the typical table.
Perhaps, though most of my campaigns tend to go higher than that.

[Easy_Lee]

I would give the Sorcerer the same number of spell known the Bard has, and also give the class the Ritual Casting feature.

In that case, the sorcerer is even less distinct from other casters. From a design perspective, that's currently the biggest problem with the class. The other two biggest problems, limited spells known and too few sorcery points for Metamagic if you don't multiclass into warlock, have a bigger impact on play. Your suggestion would only fix one of the three big problems.

Admittedly, my first suggestion in the OP would only resolve one of the problems as well.

I think that switching sorcerers over to a pure sorcery point casting system with some (but not full) recovery on a short rest (perhaps similar to Arcane Recovery, once per day) would fix all of the problems in one go.

[Aett_Thorn]

The biggest complaint I've seen regarding sorcerers is that they run out of sorcery points too quickly in the first two tiers of play. Since most play happens in the first two tiers of play, it's usually the case that sorcerers expend their one edge over wizards too early in the day unless they play very conservatively.

Well, this has somewhat to do with the limited number of sorcery points, and somewhat to do with both costs and choices of metamagic. So metamagic choices are almost traps at low levels, since their use means draining a ton of sorcery points in a single go. And some of these don't have benefits commensurate with the cost compared to others. The lack of another metamagic option (or the ability to swap them out) until level 10 really hurts here, since a bad choice early on can lead to trouble for all of Tier 1-2 play.


Lack of spells known is the second biggest complaint I've seen.

This is a very fair point, and on top of that, some Sorc origin choices (especially if you're just going with the PHB) can be horribly suboptimal given the spell list on top of this. For instance, Black/Copper Dragon Sorcs can apply their bonus damage to only two spells from the PHB spell list: Acid Splash and Chromatic Orb. Going for a theme here can literally restrict your choices later. Here, I think having a "bonus spell" list for each subclass (and in the case of Dragon Sorcs, probably for each element choice) would be a huge help. Sorcs don't even get Melf's Acid Arrow to help them out.


The third is that, since everyone casts spells now the way sorcerers used to, sorcerers no longer feel like they have an identity. Some homebrew combines sorcerer and warlock into a single class for this reason.

Honestly, I think that if they were going in this direction, they should have removed Sorcs from the game or made them cast differently. As they are now, they're really not different enough from Wizards in many ways that hurt their image, if not their balance.

[Breashios]

Experience in play has shown me at least that the Sorcerer is neither under-powered, nor lacking a role in combat encounters. I could see a Sorcerer feeling he or she lacked a role outside of combat, or in combat depending on the selection of spells. Spell selection is limited to the point that where a character making sure they had all the combat angles covered for instance, could find their tool box lacking when facing a non-combat challenge.

The experience I most recently had with a Sorcerer character in our party was that he did well using his Charisma based skills in non-combat situations. He wasn't the party leader or the face all the time, but he was effective picking up those roles when appropriate and sharing in the main social/interrogation/investigation encounters. He had considered taking Read Thoughts early in the campaign, but gave up on it in exchange for more combat effective choices.

Edit: He never complained about running low on Sorcery Points. I remember him asking the party members more than once if they thought he should be using them more often or planning to get a spell back with them if necessary when planning for a known encounter.

[Skyblaze]

I like the idea of sorcerery points on short rest but I would also like seeing more spells known, equal to what a bard knows would be my preferred option.

[Daphne]

One thing I find really annoying about the Sorcerer is how Flexible Casting works:

It costs 5 Sorcery Points to create a 3rd level slot but you only get 3 SP for converting a slot into Points. You can waste resources by doing this.

Changing this might be a less drastic change them turning Sorcerers to a Spell Points caster while also increasing their flexibility.

[Blood of Gaea]

If you converted Sorcerer spell slots into metamagic points, you would get 89 points, and the 20 they normally get, giving 109 points. That's twelve ninth-level spells a day, with a few points left to metamagic them. Even if you cut it in half, you're still getting up to 5-6 9th level spells a day.

[Daphne]

If you converted Sorcerer spell slots into metamagic points, you would get 89 points, and the 20 they normally get, giving 109 points. That's twelve ninth-level spells a day, with a few points left to metamagic them. Even if you cut it in half, you're still getting up to 5-6 9th level spells a day.

Most people when talking about spell points are referring to the system from the DMG, where you can only cast spells from 6th to 9th level once a day.

[Zalabim]

Shotgunning for this first one. Sorry if I miss anything.


The sorcerer needs a buff, polling as one of the two least satisfying classes (http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?4403-2017-D-D-5E-Class-Satisfaction-Survey-Results). I don't think the class needs a huge buff and I would not want the class to change to be the same as other spell casters. But I do think the sorcerer needs improvement.

Recovering some sorcery points on a short rest might be the ticket. If I made this change, I'm not sure how many points I would have the sorcerer recover, nor what the scaling should be. Starting at 1 and ending at 4 (per the tiers of play) might be reasonable.

Another option (that could be combined with the first) is to convert all sorcerer spell casting to use sorcery points, similar to the spell point variant in the DMG. Some tables already do this. This would remove the need for Flexible Casting, simplifying the class and removing sketchy interactions with warlock spell slots.

What are the playground's thoughts?
The interaction with Flexible Casting occurs whenever the sorcerer is able to get back sorcery points without taking a long rest. It's not unique to warlock multiclasses; it also works for sorcerer 20 with the capstone, as it would for any kind of lesser short rest recovery. Converting the class to spell points would be interesting, but if Flexible Casting/Font of Power is leaving as a class feature, something would also need to replace it. I'd actually argue that level 1 can be addressed with better designed subclasses and level 2 should be replaced or augmented as a way to make the class feel more fun to play. More on that later though.

Probably should just give it the same restrictions as the Land Druid and Wizard recovery features (i.e., only usable one short rest per long rest). Scale it somewhat similarly, and it should be reasonable.
This. It's a way to allow extra recovery without prompting questions of Sorcerer's going unbounded with spell slot creation.

But spell points ARE the sorcerer's version of Arcane Recovery and Natural Recovery. If you give sorcerers spell points and a sorcererous recovery, you're letting them have twice what other casters get once.
Yes, and?

The Wizard is jealous of the Sorcerer for their Metamagic, and the Sorcerer is jealous of the Wizard for the spell selection flexibility. Converting a Sorcerer to spell points is absolutely 100% broken from a balance point of view.

Not to say you can't do it as homebrew, but having it be official would be ridiculous.
I rarely see wizard's jealous of metamagic. Anyway, spell points is a power up, but I wouldn't say sorcerers need that kind of power up to solve satisfaction issues.

Just to point out: least satisfying =/= imbalanced. Something can be very well balanced, but not fun. If so, changing it to increase the power without taking a look at how it fits in the overall balance of the game is problematic.
This is the real crux of the matter. It's not that it's too weak. It's that it's not enough fun.

So here's my initial brainstorm suggestions: Replace or modify Font of Power/Flexible Casting/sorcery points/metamagic as class features. Instead of giving points and doing calculus, use it as an ability to cast a spell without spending a spell slot, like a sorcerer's version of ritual casting. Limited use per long rest. Or if this will be kept point based, it can boost a spell's level or completely replace the spell slot based on points expended. Not really different, ultimately. The other side of this is to add a limited ability to cast a spell the sorcerer doesn't know. Finally, maybe try out metaspells instead of metamagic as a class feature. Make them into metamagic spells, exclusive to the sorcerer spell list. (I know bards would love it, sue me.) That gives the sorcerer flexibility to take more or less of the abilities, an excuse to allow more spells known, and frees up progression for a different ability. Plus they'd be able to replace a metaspell on level up like any other.

In summary, my three suggestions to try out would be 1) Simplify sorcery points. 2) Reckless Dwoemer: Limited access to varied spell knowledge. 3) Metamagic as spells.

[KorvinStarmast]

I could see a Sorcerer feeling he or she lacked a role outside of combat, or in combat depending on the selection of spells. How is the sorcerer lacking outside of combat with a high Charisma? :smallfrown:

[Blood of Gaea]

Most people when talking about spell points are referring to the system from the DMG, where you can only cast spells from 6th to 9th level once a day.
Ah, if you were to go about it that way, it might work. Though at the same time you'd kind of be going from a Wizard like class to a Warlock like class.

[Easy_Lee]

If you converted Sorcerer spell slots into metamagic points, you would get 89 points, and the 20 they normally get, giving 109 points. That's twelve ninth-level spells a day, with a few points left to metamagic them. Even if you cut it in half, you're still getting up to 5-6 9th level spells a day.

A common point, but a good one. Perhaps the following:

Sorcery points average out to 4*sorcerer level.
Can recover sorcery points equal to current level on a short rest once per day.
Can only cast a specific spell of level 6+ once per day (similar to Mystic Arcanums but with a bit more flexibility).

That would keep sorcerers from spamming high level spells, promote diversity of spell choice, and give them a unique identity. Twentieth level total effective sorcery points would be 100.

Edit: 3*level might be better, effectively capping them at 80. I can't see that being broken, all things considered.

[strangebloke]

Good reminder. I wonder if changing spells known on a long rest (as druids and clerics do) and the option to change Metamagic when leveling up would be too powerful.

It's less that this would be too powerful, and more that this would destroy the sorcerer's niche. It would also make Sorc 3 and even better multiclass.

Sorcerers are on the lower end of power. They aren't 'too weak' but they also certainly aren't bards or paladins or clerics, so there's plenty of room to buff them a bit. But all buffs should be made with the goal in mind of making them more intuitive to build.

[Theodoxus]

I like the idea of sorcerery points on short rest but I would also like seeing more spells known, equal to what a bard knows would be my preferred option.

Glad to know my solution has some love from the crowd.

[clash]

Just give sorcerers origins bonus spells known. Something like:

Draconic:
1: Chromatic Orb
2: Dragons Breath
3: Fly
4: Fire Shield
5: Cone of Cold

Wildmagic:
1: Chaos Bolt
2: Crown of Madness
3: Counterspell
4: Confusion
5: Animate Objects

Storm sorcerer:
1: Thunderwave
2: Gust of Wind
3: Lightning Bolt
4: Storm Sphere
5: Control Winds

Shadow Sorcerer:
1: Ray of Sickness
2: Shadow Blade
3: Fear
4: Shadow of Moil
5: Geas

Divine Soul:
Chaos
1: Bane
2: Hold Person
3: Bestow Curse
4: Freedom of Movement
5: Telekinesis

Evil
1: Inflict Wounds
2: Blindness/Deafness
3: Animate Dead
4: Blight
5: Contagion

Good
1: Cure Wounds
2: Lesser Restoration
3: Revivify
4: Guardian of Faith
5: Greater Restoration

Law
1: Bless
2: Enhance Ability
3: Magic Circle
4: Death ward
5: Hallow

Neutrality
1: Protection from evil and good
2: Silence
3: Dispel Magic
4: Banishment
5: Planar Binding

[Aett_Thorn]

Just give sorcerers origins bonus spells known. Something like:
SNIP

Sadly, you'd need to limit the PHB Sorcs to the PHB. Otherwise, you'd automatically trip the PHB +1 restriction for AL characters. So you'd never be able to create a Sorc with Volo's races, or take a Sorc with GFB/BB, etc.

[Blood of Gaea]

A common point, but a good one. Perhaps the following:

Sorcery points average out to 4*sorcerer level.
Can recover sorcery points equal to current level on a short rest once per day.
Can only cast a specific spell of level 6+ once per day (similar to Mystic Arcanums but with a bit more flexibility).

That would keep sorcerers from spamming high-level spells, promote diversity of spell choice, and give them a unique identity. Twentieth level total effective sorcery points would be 100.

Edit: 3*level might be better, effectively capping them at 80. I can't see that being broken, all things considered.
That's certainly not broken, but you just went from being like a Wizard who trades spells known for metamagic and are instead now a long rest Warlock that trades invocations for metamagic. If that's enough for you, go right ahead.

A similar idea:

Sorcery points are reduced to 1 point every other level, with a maximum of 10 at level 20.
You can no longer create spell slots from metamagic points.
You can now cast 1-5th level spells with metamagic points.
You now regain Sorcery points on a short rest.
Spell slots can still be sacrificed for metamagic points.
Your level 20 capstone now increases metamagic points by your charisma modifier. Making for a maximum of 15 metamagic points at level 20.

You get both a bit of a bump in power, as well as making metamagic a bit more unique.

[Lombra]

One of the problems I think is that it's not very intreasting in the beginning, mid-late game is totally fine and badass, but in the first levels you really just feel like a wizard with less spells. I'd fix it by adding CHA mod to the number of sorcery points, so that you can already start with a bunch of stuff to dip your hands into, use more often the metamagic you choose, and be more flexible with the spell slots right from the beginning.

[Easy_Lee]

That's certainly not broken, but you just went from being like a Wizard who trades spells known for metamagic and are instead now a long rest Warlock that trades invocations for metamagic. If that's enough for you, go right ahead.

How? Warlock slots are of a fixed level (unlike sorcery point casting under my proposed system) and warlocks can't learn as many spells past spell level 5 as a sorcerer can.

If you could only cast a given 6th level spell once per day, that doesn't stop you from casting a different 6th level spell later under my proposition. Sorcerers have more than twenty spells on their list past sixth level and, while they wouldn't learn all of them, they could pick up a decent selection and choose the ones that best suited the day's needs. But they wouldn't be able to just chain-cast Wish; they'd only get one casting of Wish per day while Wizards could do two.

That said, I'm not as worried about these levels just because I've seldom seen tier 3 campaigns and have never seen one go to tier 4.

[youtellatale]

In my experience with 5E I've not seen a sorcerer complain about these things. Granted, that's just my limited experience. I think boosting the number of sorcery points would be a nice buff. What I am not sold on is the short rest recovery of points or slots. If the complaint is that you don't want to feel like a wizard then this doesn't make sense to me. Boost the points sorcerers get and possibly give them more reason to differentiate between the subclasses by adding spells known (as many others have suggested).

All that said - do whatever is fun at your table. We play with house rules at our table and I think just about every table has their own things. No errata should be issued and no changes should be done to the official rules in my opinion, but it could use some help if people feel they want to make it more interesting.

[Dr. Cliché]

Honestly, I think the biggest issue with sorcerers is metamagic.

Put simply, it takes up far too much design space, leading ton everything else being cut to the bone (tiny number of spells known, many arcane spells not on the spell list, limited background features etc.).

I think metamagic should have been the focus of one specific sorcerer subclass, rather than a core feature.

Given that sorcerers get their magic from a variety of difference sources, I think the extra design space should be used to greatly expand their subclass abilities. This could also include some free spells known, tailored to that specific background.

Possibly spell points could stay, being used to activate certain background features.

[Easy_Lee]

Honestly, I think the biggest issue with sorcerers is metamagic.

Put simply, it takes up far too much design space, leading ton everything else being cut to the bone (tiny number of spells known, many arcane spells not on the spell list, limited background features etc.).

I think metamagic should have been the focus of one specific sorcerer subclass, rather than a core feature.

Given that sorcerers get their magic from a variety of difference sources, I think the extra design space should be used to greatly expand their subclass abilities. This could also include some free spells known, tailored to that specific background.

Possibly spell points could stay, being used to activate certain background features.

Take Metamagic away from sorcerers and you no longer have a distinct class. The only homebrew I've seen that does this also combined the sorcerer and warlock into one class, realizing that sorcerers already were in the verge of not needing to be there.

[Dr. Cliché]

Take Metamagic away from sorcerers and you no longer have a distinct class.

Why? Because they'd be getting most of their unique stuff from their subclasses?

I fail to see how that wouldn't still make them a distinct class.

[clash]

Sadly, you'd need to limit the PHB Sorcs to the PHB. Otherwise, you'd automatically trip the PHB +1 restriction for AL characters. So you'd never be able to create a Sorc with Volo's races, or take a Sorc with GFB/BB, etc.

Just need to switch out those spells then although in general, any form of a solution like this probably wont be AL legal anyways so I didint think it would matter.

[Kyrinthic]

Honestly, the problem I have playing my sorcerer, is that there are so many metamagics, but you only get to pick two for most of the game, and many of them are just bad. Improve the metamagic system, and the class can really come into its own.

As a sorcerer, you cannot hope to match the versitility of a wizard. They get more spells known, larger lists of spells to chose from, more spells per day, and they can ritual up spells when time isnt an issue. They can just cast more variety of spells more often than the sorcerer. So you need to hyper focus on a single thing, and changes are there is a wizard archetype that does it better anyhow.

A classic choice is the blaster sorcerer, thats what they were generally best at in earlier editions.

But then we look at the evocation wizard, who can for free make every spell they cast ever ignore enough allies to effectively ignore the issue of friendly fire. at level 6 their cantrips always land some damage, at 10 they add their casting stat to spell damage, at 14 they can maximize a spell once a day (or kill themselves doing it a lot). This is the competition, lets see what the sorcerer can do;

Lets go with dragon bloodline, thats the traditional damage archetype. At level 1 they get survival abilities. They dont need to cast mage armor, thats fine, they cant afford the spell selection and slot to take it anyhow. they get an extra hp/level, doesnt help them kill things, but its a good thing to have. at 6 they get to add their caster stat to damage, but only to 1 element. Its not as good as wizards, but they get it 4 levels earlier. They also get resistance to that element at 6, and wings at 14, so more survivability again. So we NEED those metamagic to not just be worse than an evoker at everything.

your options:
Careful spell: can do what evokers do for free, by costing a sorcery point, but is less good because friendlies still take damage. Almost so bad it isnt worth taking for what it is designed to do.

Distant spell: Fun, but rarely is max range a huge issue, and there arent enough touch range spells to really justify taking it for that, if you are in 30', you may as well be in touch range when they attack back.

Extend spell: Most spells have thresholds of relevance. doubling a spell that lasts 1 round per level wont get you a second fight out of it, and it will probably still last the whole fight. 10m/level might see some use, but again, its super situational at best.

Subtle spell: Good for RP reasons, good to avoid counterspells, unique to sorcerer. A good choice, but doesnt really help on the damage dealer front.

Heightened: Gives disadvantage on saves, amazingly strong on single target effects, mediocre on aoe effects, expensive to use.

Quickened: Great option for action economy, except you cant use it to cast two real spells, so its a lot less amazing that it sounds, hard to justify 2 sorcerery points for a free cantrip or dodge action, but its still useful.

Twinned: This is the good stuff, lets you actually double the effectiveness of certain spells, single target concentration and damage spells really shine with this, but the price is extremely high to use. Twinned disintigrate sounds amazing until you realize you are basically spending all of your sorcery points to do it. Worth taking on most builds even so.

Empowered: This is the way you can do damage to a target above the +cha to damage ability, and helps make low dice rolls less painful. Unique to sorcerers, and inexpensive to use, and chosen after the roll. This is a great metamagic, even if it isnt as strong as twin or heighten.

With twin, empower, heighten, subtle and quicken, you really actually feel like you have some strong options for different needs, you cant stack them on the same spell, and your point pool is limited, but at least you would have some options. The problem is you get 2. A third at 10, and a fourth at 17. You cant even get all 5 of the good ones, never mind experimenting with the bad ones or the ones that require to specific of an edge case. You spend the vast majority of your time playing with 2 metamagic options, and that just isnt enough to make you feel better at what you do than an evocation wizard.

And that problem happens with each direction you want to take sorcerer, the wizard archtype usually does it better.

Better metamagic and more access to it is the only way you are going to fix the sorcerer without turning them into wizards.

[Easy_Lee]

Why? Because they'd be getting most of their unique stuff from their subclasses?

I fail to see how that wouldn't still make them a distinct class.

Before considering archetypes, what does the wizard do that nobody else does? What about the cleric, bard, druid, and warlock? For each of these classes, there are several answers.

If we ask this question of the sorcerer, we only find two things: sorcery points and metamagic. These things are extremely limited, fixed, and are one more thing to track on top of tracking spell slots and spells known.

In exchange for these two things, sorcerers have fewer spells known, less ability to change their spells known, and no ritual casting compared to other casters. They also have a short spell list.

Take away metamagic and the only distinct features of the sorcerer will be how weak it is compared to other casters.

[Nifft]

In exchange for these two things, sorcerers have fewer spells known, less ability to change their spells known, and no ritual casting compared to other casters. They also have a short spell list.

Take away metamagic and the only distinct features of the sorcerer will be how weak it is compared to other casters.

My answer would be to give the Sorcerer more things to spend SP on, and remove some of the relatively poor Metamagic options.

[Easy_Lee]

My answer would be to give the Sorcerer more things to spend SP on, and remove some of the relatively poor Metamagic options.

Like what?

Regardless of the answer, you're talking about a major rewrite. In my experience, major rewrites are best avoided whenever possible. The fewer your changes, the less likely you are to break something and the more likely your players are to accept them.

Additionally, all of the Metamagic options are good if used with the correct spells. The least useful, distant, can still be useful with the right setup. But the problem with setting up any build around Metamagic is that sorcerers get so damn few sorcery points at low levels.

[Nifft]

Like what? One example was already given: a Dragon Sorcerer can spend one SP to gain energy resistance for an hour.

Sorcerers are limited in spells known, and that's fine, but it means they need to get some non-spell things to do.

Metamagic isn't a non-spell thing, it's a more-spell thing. Since metamagic builds on spellcasting, you need to synergize your spells and your metamagic. That means metamagic amplifies bad or good decisions, rather than mitigating the need to carefully choose.


Regardless of the answer, you're talking about a major rewrite. In my experience, major rewrites are best avoided whenever possible. The fewer your changes, the less likely you are to break something and the more likely your players are to accept them. Well, the Ranger re-write is great, so I think your theory is inconsistent with the facts.

People who say a thing is impossible should never be allowed to talk over the people who are getting that thing done.

[Easy_Lee]

Well, the Ranger re-write is great, so I think your theory is inconsistent with the facts.

People who say a thing is impossible should never be allowed to talk over the people who are getting that thing done.

Three points:

You didn't create Revised Ranger; WotC did. You are not WotC and there's no reason to assume players will accept as much out of you as they do out of WotC.
Players usually bring the Revised Ranger, wanting to use it, but everyone already knows what it is. In our case, we're talking about DMs making changes and presenting them to their players or players making changes and presenting them to their DMs or groups, most likely at the table.
People have short attention spans and even less patience than usual when they're trying to get the game started.

I'm not dismissing anyone's ideas. I'm expressing concerns with trying to significantly rewrite anything when such is avoidable.

Additionally, you didn't address the other half of my point: the more you change, the more likely you are to break something. Revised Ranger is absolutely broken (in comparison to other martials' damage output) with the correct setup, even if you don't multiclass. Thus, even WotC is not exempt from this principle.

[strangebloke]

Easy, did you really need to make a thread for this? 'Fixing the Sorcerer' is a pretty common thread by now, and I know that this idea has come up multiple times.

I can't remember if Zman gave them sorcery point recovery or if he gave them bonus spells or both. Usually, any time I think of a tweak I'd like to do, he's already done it.

[Easy_Lee]

Easy, did you really need to make a thread for this? 'Fixing the Sorcerer' is a pretty common thread by now, and I know that this idea has come up multiple times.

I can't remember if Zman gave them sorcery point recovery or if he gave them bonus spells or both. Usually, any time I think of a tweak I'd like to do, he's already done it.

And yet the discussion continues because people can't agree on how to do it.

[Theodoxus]

Easy, did you really need to make a thread for this? 'Fixing the Sorcerer' is a pretty common thread by now, and I know that this idea has come up multiple times.

I can't remember if Zman gave them sorcery point recovery or if he gave them bonus spells or both. Usually, any time I think of a tweak I'd like to do, he's already done it.

both - I'm using Zman's E10 rules as a base for my game (originally E10, but with playtesting and player approval, expanded back to full 20, but with the core concepts of E10 still there.

Sorcerers get 2 sorcery points back on a short rest. They also get an extra spell known for every point of charisma modifier.

The only limiter I placed was with the interaction between warlock slots and sorcery conversion. You can restore expended slots or replenish expended sorcery points, but you can't "overcharge" - so no Coffeelock shenanigans.

My one sorcerer player has really enjoyed the expanded potential.

ETA:
And yet the discussion continues because people can't agree on how to do it.

That's because the simplest solution is the one few people really want to accept, because Sorcerers have been around since 3rd Ed: Removing the class and moving sorcery points and metamagic to all caster classes.

This is one tradition that is literally there for the sake of tradition and harms nothing by simply removing them from the game. Bards already feel more sorcerer-like than sorcerers and warlocks pick up the rest of the slack. Make a Draconic patron and a Weave patron and you can pick the last of the sorcerer carcass and let the concept die.

When contemplating allowing a change to spell casting, where you pick a spell list (Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Warlock or Wizard) , caster stat (Cha, Int or Wis) and caster style (Bloodline, Divine, Patron or Spellbook), it became abundantly clear that sorcerer wasn't needed. I scraped the idea, but that niggling feeling of inadequacy to the class led me to the realization that it wasn't needed, and the "unique" features it brought could be just as easily used by other classes without missing a beat.

[strangebloke]

And yet the discussion continues because people can't agree on how to do it.

Proposing another solution is not the way to build a consensus. I want to further plug Zman's rules. He does good work, and has probably already covered all the fixes you can think of.

[Easy_Lee]

Proposing another solution is not the way to build a consensus. I want to further plug Zman's rules. He does good work, and has probably already covered all the fixes you can think of.

Discussing pros and cons of different solutions is the way to build a consensus, unless you'd rather do things in a totalitarian manner.

Regarding sorcerers, I don't think Zman's tweaks get to the heart of the matter: that sorcerers don't have a distinct identity outside of their Metamagic. That deeper problem is the reason why so many wish to do away with sorcerers entirely and give all casters access to Metamagic.

[Daphne]

My answer would be to give the Sorcerer more things to spend SP on, and remove some of the relatively poor Metamagic options.

That's not really good answer to the problem, and most players don't like more options that spend from the same resource pool. This would only make people feel even more that there aren't enough Sorcery Points

[Citan]

The sorcerer needs a buff, polling as one of the two least satisfying classes (http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?4403-2017-D-D-5E-Class-Satisfaction-Survey-Results). I don't think the class needs a huge buff and I would not want the class to change to be the same as other spell casters. But I do think the sorcerer needs improvement.

Recovering some sorcery points on a short rest might be the ticket. If I made this change, I'm not sure how many points I would have the sorcerer recover, nor what the scaling should be. Starting at 1 and ending at 4 (per the tiers of play) might be reasonable.

Another option (that could be combined with the first) is to convert all sorcerer spell casting to use sorcery points, similar to the spell point variant in the DMG. Some tables already do this. This would remove the need for Flexible Casting, simplifying the class and removing sketchy interactions with warlock spell slots.

What are the playground's thoughts?
Hi!

I won't open the discussion about current Sorcerer's quality to focus on OP.

So, in short...

1. Converting everything to Spellcasting point.
This is a very, VERY bad idea. Honestly.
Simply because this would give so much flexibility in casting to Sorcerer, compared to any other caster, than you would quickly overshadow everyone else. Two reasons...
- no action economy cost: you directly have the perfect level without bonus action convert.
- no fuel cost: you don't lose anything compared to a normal Sorcerer.
Basically, compared to any other caster, you have a 100% consumption efficiency.
It could seem the same in theory, not in practice: such a caster would suddenly be able to be as tanky as a heavy-armor fighter, half-a-day long or even all day long for example.
Or just spamming Hold Person or Enhance Ability as needed, while other casters always have to consider how to spend their slots because of the risk ending to either be out of big slots, or in the opposite having to waste a higher level slot just because you burnt all 1st and 2nd level already, still you REALLY need to avoid that attack (Shield/Misty Step) or try and paralyse that guy (Hold Person).

2. Recovering SP on short rest.
This is by far the simplest and best idea (although it doesn't address the number of spell known that is often frowned at, so you may also take a "Domain spell" like feature).
If you want to be sure to avoid any problem balance-wise, you could make it "half-prof"... But I'd say it would be a bit frustrating to feel as a player, only 3 SP at higher levels...

I'd say one balanced way to go would be to instead go with a once per long rest recovery, that you get somewhere between 6 and 10, that allows you to recover half your Sorcerer level as SP by spending a minute on it. In addition to keeping the current capstone.

That way a Sorcerer would still need to pace himsef, but still get a way to not feel helpless when a sudden and powerful threat rises.

[Nifft]

Three points:
[LIST]
You didn't create Revised Ranger; WotC did. You are not WotC and there's no reason to assume players will accept as much out of you as they do out of WotC. You initially claimed players would never accept new things. Now you're moving the goal posts to something about how ~I~ must create the new things? Sorry, not playing that game.

You're wrong -- the Sorcerer would be better if it got a re-write.


Players usually bring the Revised Ranger, wanting to use it Yeah, it's almost like players have no difficulty accepting new things when the new things are better.

Thanks for directly contradicting yourself. You're correct when you agree with me that players like the Revised Ranger -- which means your previous point was wrong.


People have short attention spans and even less patience Well, seeing how you've provided evidence in contradiction of your previous point, I think you're correct about ~some~ people. But that's a tangent which isn't actually relevant to the thread.


I'm not dismissing anyone's ideas. I'm expressing concerns with trying to significantly rewrite anything when such is avoidable.
Previously you did dismiss the idea of a re-write.

Now you're claiming that you're not against the idea of improvement, you're an ally who is merely concerned about the issues inherent in change.

Please pardon me if I don't trust that heel-face turn immediately -- I've seen that behavior used as a rhetorical tactic before, and in fact there's a name for it: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/concern_troll

-- -- --

Anyway, moving on, IMHO the Sorcerer needs...

- Non-spell things to do with Sorcery Points. This could be attacks but preferably it'd include some general utility, so you don't feel quite as sad about your lack of Ritual spells.

- Cleaner multi-classing, for example allow SP and Ki Points to pool together so you could do something funky like being a Shadow Monk / Shadow Sorcerer and get better resource synergy.

- Less reliance on Metamagic to be your one cool thing.

-- -- --

Here's one idea which I haven't seen elsewhere yet: Sorcerers can spend (several) SP in place of a magic item charge. This means a Sorcerer with a Wand of Fire can throw around a LOT of fire. The exact conversion rate would need to be worked out, but the basic idea would be that a Sorcerer can interact with the magic item better than a Wizard or Thief could, and therefore the Sorcerer can be the flexible item-user.

A Wizard prepares new spells every day; a Sorcerer swaps out which items she's attuned.

Imperfect because it relies on magic items existing, but it might be interesting.


EDIT:
That's not really good answer to the problem, and most players don't like more options that spend from the same resource pool. This would only make people feel even more that there aren't enough Sorcery Points

This would be in combination with making SP a short rest resource, so there would also be more SP per day.

[Kane0]

I've said my piece in previous threads, but I really like using spell points for sorcs (and only sorcs) along with merging the two resource pools. Then tweak spells known, metamagic and short rest recovery to taste. I like to add in a second unique class feature as well to flesh things out.

Edit: For those interested. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?537049-Sorcerer-Rework)

[Pex]

Sadly, you'd need to limit the PHB Sorcs to the PHB. Otherwise, you'd automatically trip the PHB +1 restriction for AL characters. So you'd never be able to create a Sorc with Volo's races, or take a Sorc with GFB/BB, etc.

:smallconfused:

Since this is all homebrew house rules, Adventure League has nothing to do with it and has no authority to dictate what anyone does for their own game.

[Kane0]

Also, is it just me or do the forums have this uncanny ability to bounce between ranger and sorcerer threads?

Where's the element monk / frenzy barbarian love?

[TheUser]

The sorcerer needs a buff, polling as one of the two least satisfying classes (http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?4403-2017-D-D-5E-Class-Satisfaction-Survey-Results). I don't think the class needs a huge buff and I would not want the class to change to be the same as other spell casters. But I do think the sorcerer needs improvement.

Recovering some sorcery points on a short rest might be the ticket. If I made this change, I'm not sure how many points I would have the sorcerer recover, nor what the scaling should be. Starting at 1 and ending at 4 (per the tiers of play) might be reasonable.

Another option (that could be combined with the first) is to convert all sorcerer spell casting to use sorcery points, similar to the spell point variant in the DMG. Some tables already do this. This would remove the need for Flexible Casting, simplifying the class and removing sketchy interactions with warlock spell slots.

What are the playground's thoughts?

Short rest recovery of sorcery points doesn't fix the dissatisfaction people have with the class.

Relevant thread from another forum:

https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/72vd9f/thread_response_if_youre_unsatisfied_with/

TL;DR: Sorcerers are mostly unsatisfying because they are a) starved for spells known and b) locked into their spell selection until levelling up, make them have 1 spell swapped per long rest and you fix a huge bulk of the problem without changing their power level

EDIT: as an aside this thread has an upvote percentage of 94% which is to say that this particular community agrees with the sentiment that indeed these are the pain points of the class.


Anyone who's test driven Sorcery Points knows how bonkers strong they are. I personally wouldn't allow them at my table because spells in general are balanced around the limitations of spell slots; without them martials are very quickly overshadowed by casters. If WotC felt that sorcery points were fair and balanced then Font of Magic wouldn't have any conversion entropy; the fact that it does is proof that WotC needed to put a tax on the exchange to keep it balanced.

[Daphne]

If WotC felt that sorcery points were fair and balanced then Font of Magic wouldn't have any conversion entropy; the fact that it does is proof that WotC needed to put a tax on the exchange to keep it balanced.

I think WotC overrated Metamagic, and conversion entropy was a misguided idea, it goes against 5e's philosophy of "keep it simple".

[Theodoxus]

EDIT: as an aside this thread has an upvote percentage of 94% which is to say that this particular community agrees with the sentiment that indeed these are the pain points of the class.

Well, that's one interpretation of what 94% upvote means. It could also be simply that no one has taken the initiative to figure out what other pain points the sorcerer has, and thus are gloming on to the option presented because that's what people do.

As for playing with spell points, I've done it both as a player, and allowed it as a DM. Yes, you can cast more fireballs... and then you're relegated to pewpew cantrips. Converting all your spells to your max level is amazing nova potential. But unless you're running a days/months long slog like OotA - and getting one encounter every few days - that nova will take its toll.

You become a warlock with long rest spell slots. It's far wiser to actually use a lot more level 1 or 2 spells - more than a normal caster gets - it's a lot more bang for your buck. Like folks who stumble across a wand of magic missiles and after a couple 4 or 5 charge hits in an adventure, have the epiphany that 3d4+3 6 times is way better than 9d4+9 once. Action economy or not.

[Kane0]

https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/72vd9f/thread_response_if_youre_unsatisfied_with/


Funny how close his dynamic magic is to my spontaneous sorcery.

[Easy_Lee]

Being able to cast freely, rather than having to prepare specific spells in specific slots at the start of the day, used to be the entire shtick of the sorcerer. Now that everyone can do that, the sorcerer doesn't have an identity.

The most obvious resolution is to let sorcerers cast exclusively from sorcery points, even if their total number did not match the combined levels over other casters' spell slots. That gives the sorcerer his identity back.

But some people oppose it because they think that would make the sorcerer too powerful. Fewer total spell points per day? Nope, still too powerful. How dare the sorcerer make the wizard jealous.

Some people will never be happy.

A few years ago, I said that the problem with BM Ranger was that it didn't have a free acting beast, and that the reason why it didn't was because of extra attack. I suggested to remove extra attack from the BM Ranger and give him a free acting beast. People on this forum made fun of me for it. Then WotC did exactly what I suggested with the Revised Ranger. Suddenly, the entire community was on-board and totally cool with it.

If WotC released a spell point style revised sorcerer tomorrow, I bet every single one of you would praise them for it and claim it was exactly what the sorcerer needed.

[Ganymede]

I kinda like the idea of completely eliminating the sorcerer spell list and letting sorcerers take their spells known from any list they want.





Yes, and?

I thought my implication was clear, but I'll spell it out: doubling a sorcerer's daily sorcery points just makes the class more powerful without actually addressing the broad issues players have with the class.

[Dr. Cliché]

Before considering archetypes, what does the wizard do that nobody else does? What about the cleric, bard, druid, and warlock? For each of these classes, there are several answers.

If we ask this question of the sorcerer, we only find two things: sorcery points and metamagic. These things are extremely limited, fixed, and are one more thing to track on top of tracking spell slots and spells known.

In exchange for these two things, sorcerers have fewer spells known, less ability to change their spells known, and no ritual casting compared to other casters. They also have a short spell list.

Take away metamagic and the only distinct features of the sorcerer will be how weak it is compared to other casters.

Why are you even quoting me when you clearly can't be bothered to read what I actually wrote? :smallconfused:

[Breashios]

How is the sorcerer lacking outside of combat with a high Charisma? :smallfrown:

I did not say they were. I gave examples that clearly indicated a character that did not lack because he did use his high Charisma effectively.

But the case where someone might want a magic solution to a non-combat challenge is an area where a wizard has a higher probability of being able to apply himself (Assuming he knows the challenge or has some kind of hint beforehand) and that might equal more fun to such an individual.

There might also be players that are not social themselves, or character concepts that while being a Sorcerer, want to excel at investigation or tests of brawn. In those cases they either use a precious creation points or ASIs to raise a tertiary stat or use some of their precious spell selections on potentially non-combat spells. I can see some players being frustrated by this trade-off much more likely than a real issue with combat competitiveness.

My point is Do Not Recover Sorcery Points on Short Rest to make the class more fun. Maybe something else in a completely different area would be more effective in bringing fun to the class, but the experience I have is that a player interested in employing Charisma based skills will have fun playing a Sorcerer, even if most of their spells are bent toward battlefield control and direct combat.

[TheUser]

Well, that's one interpretation of what 94% upvote means. It could also be simply that no one has taken the initiative to figure out what other pain points the sorcerer has, and thus are gloming on to the option presented because that's what people do.

As for playing with spell points, I've done it both as a player, and allowed it as a DM. Yes, you can cast more fireballs... and then you're relegated to pewpew cantrips. Converting all your spells to your max level is amazing nova potential. But unless you're running a days/months long slog like OotA - and getting one encounter every few days - that nova will take its toll.

You become a warlock with long rest spell slots. It's far wiser to actually use a lot more level 1 or 2 spells - more than a normal caster gets - it's a lot more bang for your buck. Like folks who stumble across a wand of magic missiles and after a couple 4 or 5 charge hits in an adventure, have the epiphany that 3d4+3 6 times is way better than 9d4+9 once. Action economy or not.

It means that 94% of the community that viewed the post agreed with the assessment enough to upvote it.

You can ration your power all you like into level 2 spells but every time you do it's at the expense of your group taking on more damage or using more resources. A level 3 spell vs a level 2 spell is a staggering gap in power and utilizing your turns poorly in tier 2 and not swinging fights early can have tremendous blowback on the entire party.

(Also what kind of adventuring days are you having where 13 fireballs doesn't get you through the day?!)

Short rest recovery for sorcerers only creates incentives to use more costly metamagics in less efficient ways.

If you're so desperate to get a capstone feature earlier then multiclass 3 levels in warlock and eat the appropriate multiclassing tax.

[Citan]

Being able to cast freely, rather than having to prepare specific spells in specific slots at the start of the day, used to be the entire shtick of the sorcerer. Now that everyone can do that, the sorcerer doesn't have an identity.

The most obvious resolution is to let sorcerers cast exclusively from sorcery points, even if their total number did not match the combined levels over other casters' spell slots. That gives the sorcerer his identity back.

But some people oppose it because they think that would make the sorcerer too powerful. Fewer total spell points per day? Nope, still too powerful. How dare the sorcerer make the wizard jealous.

Some people will never be happy.

A few years ago, I said that the problem with BM Ranger was that it didn't have a free acting beast, and that the reason why it didn't was because of extra attack. I suggested to remove extra attack from the BM Ranger and give him a free acting beast. People on this forum made fun of me for it. Then WotC did exactly what I suggested with the Revised Ranger. Suddenly, the entire community was on-board and totally cool with it.

If WotC released a spell point style revised sorcerer tomorrow, I bet every single one of you would praise them for it and claim it was exactly what the sorcerer needed.
You really should not conflate yourself as such, you're disserving yourself here.

Besides the fact you weren't the only one saying that,
WoTC did that with Revised Ranger because it was overall the same balance wise, as far as single-class "Extra Attack" goes at least : Ranger still "gets three attacks" with his Attack action in the end. Seemed easy enough a fix.
But then why didn't they release it officially yet? Because some changes in the whole class were a bit more powerful than first anticipated, and multiclass can push the power balance between classes above and off the board, notably with the Beast master archetype.

IF they were to make a spell points based Sorcerer, it would require heaps and tons of efforts balancing it as a single-class compared to other casters (especially since there is also Warlock to spare), then trying to find a way to make it work in the multiclass system without making it 1) overly clunky 2) under- or over-powered.
It would be like 10x more difficult to balance and integrate than Revised Ranger, simply because you completely break the design expectations of normal casters which are that you release chunks of power in a forcefully distributed ways (slots), with a mechanic of potential waste that always make each use something to think about, even the lowest level slots.

Reason why it will never happen.
Or rather, it at least won't happen before they release the Mystic class which is kinda a prototype for any such approach.

Spell points is fine for a caster if he's the only one in the party and martials are fine with having pals that are even more awesome than usual...
Or if everyone plays with spell points.
Only exception is a lone Warlock in a party otherwise composed of long-rest based classes.

Now, I agree with you that slot conversion and metamagic are the Sorcerer's authentic part. Just emphasis that.
- Take one of the suggestions about sorcery point recovery.
- Allow one more metamagic learned on each step OR allow one metamagic to be swapped every long rest.
- Give 2 auto spell known per slot level like Cleric's Domain, and allow one spell to be swapped each long rest (call it whatever you like).
Should be easy enough to implement, and far enough to make any reasonable player more than happy.

[MaxWilson]

I’d be wary of the spell Cat Nap, from Xanathars. Besides that no issue

Why? Spending five spell points to cast Catnap to gain back 1 to 4 spell points via short rest... doesn't seem problematic. And Catnap only works once per long rest anyway.

Frankly I'd be more worried about Rope Trick.

[quark12000]

Most people when talking about spell points are referring to the system from the DMG, where you can only cast spells from 6th to 9th level once a day.

At 20th level full casters can cast two 6th and two 7th level spells.

[MaxWilson]

At 20th level full casters can cast two 6th and two 7th level spells.

...unless they are using the DMG spell point system.

[Easy_Lee]

I'm reading what you guys are saying here, but I think my point is being missed. I'll be as clear as I can in this post.

The sorcerer, in past editions, was the only class that could cast spontaneously. Other casters had to load specific spells into their slots. In exchange for spontaneous casting, sorcerers knew fewer spells.

In 5e, every caster can cast spontaneously. The sorcerer has no advantage in this regard, but still knows fewer spells. He also has inferior spell recovery and no ritual casting.

The Real Problem: No Class Identity

People misdiagnose the sorcerer's drawbacks as the problem with the class. Those drawbacks are not the problem. The problem is that the sorcerer lost its niche. In this edition, sorcerers are not sorcerers. That's why they're so dissatisfying, tied with the PHB ranger whose beast master companion has less free will than a mule. Tweaks can adjust the class' power, but giving it more spells known or some recovery will not fix the feel.

The only way to truly fix the class is to give it its niche back. The sorcerer MUST be able to cast spontaneously compared to other spellcasters. If we try to fix the class in any other way, it won't be a sorcerer.

A spell point system that does not allow spamming of 6+ level spells is the simplest, easiest solution. People are opposed to that, but the reasons seldom have anything to do with the sorcerer.

Some people think casters are OP and so "buffing" any caster is bad
Some people think the sorcerer is "strong" enough and so there is no problem
Some people think the sorcerer needs to be nerfed because of sorlocks and sorcadins
Some people just want the sorcerer to be done away with altogether so that other classes can have metamagic
Some people hear "spell point" and have an immediate emotional reaction

In other words, most people who talk about the sorcerer or propose fixes for the sorcerer, myself included in the past, are missing the point by a mile. And many of them don't actually want the problem fixed in the first place because they don't like the class to begin with.

[strangebloke]

I'm reading what you guys are saying here, but I think my point is being missed. I'll be as clear as I can in this post.

The Real Problem: No Class Identity

A spell point system that does not allow spamming of 6+ level spells is the simplest, easiest solution. People are opposed to that, but the reasons seldom have anything to do with the sorcerer.
So you've shifted the goalposts on me heavily from when I proposed Zman's fixes.

This is the argument that has always befuddled me. They're sorcerers! Magical specialists! Magicians with narrow focus on their inborn magic traits. Like wizards but sexier, more mysterious, and with more turn-by-turn power output. Spontaneous casting was how they showed this in 3x, but metamagic is how they show it in 3x. Of the two, I think metamagic is a much more interesting and cool feature.

You can burn two second level spell slots to cast hold person as a bonus action! Nobody else can do that! You can subtly cast dominate person on the king with no one being any the wiser! I don't have any of the attitudes you talk about. I'm not saying they're OP. They're probably a little on the weak side overall. I don't hate the idea of spell points. I just don't see them as flavorless, so I don't see the need for what is really a pretty big change in balance.

Honestly the only thing that they're really missing is a few signature spells like what all the other arcane casters have. Remember those 'Wings of X' spells? Those were fun. At least as far as flavor anyways. As far as design, they're unsatisfying because they're non-intuitive. There are a few ways to fix that, but if you're conscientious enough of a DM/Player to be homebrewing this stuff, you're also probably knowledgeable enough to just steer your player clear of any pitfalls.

[Pex]

Another possibility is to allow the Sorcerer to change the damage type of spells. He can only do it among fire, electricity, acid, and cold, but now he can cast Acidball or Cold Bolt etc. It will help non-fire Dragon Sorcerers.

[Zalabim]

If you could only cast a given 6th level spell once per day, that doesn't stop you from casting a different 6th level spell later under my proposition. Sorcerers have more than twenty spells on their list past sixth level and, while they wouldn't learn all of them, they could pick up a decent selection and choose the ones that best suited the day's needs. But they wouldn't be able to just chain-cast Wish; they'd only get one casting of Wish per day while Wizards could do two.
That's still pretty extreme compared to normal, and wizards can't cast Wish twice in a day. I don't know what you're smoking.

Funny how close his dynamic magic is to my spontaneous sorcery.
Agreed. I like the idea. I think it's a positive way to show the sorcerer being intuitive with magic (as opposed to the negative way of removing all non-intuitive spells from their list). I think it's something that could stand as an alternative to or companion with metamagic abilities.

Being able to cast freely, rather than having to prepare specific spells in specific slots at the start of the day, used to be the entire shtick of the sorcerer. Now that everyone can do that, the sorcerer doesn't have an identity.

The most obvious resolution is to let sorcerers cast exclusively from sorcery points, even if their total number did not match the combined levels over other casters' spell slots. That gives the sorcerer his identity back.
It's obviously similar in aesthetic, but it's not necessarily the right answer. Game balance is easier when resource use is more predictable.

Furthermore, as a way to address dissatisfaction with the sorcerer, the change makes the least difference in play at the lowest levels where I think dissatisfaction is highest? And the most difference at the highest levels where you don't have experience. That's shaky ground to start a change from. I don't think it makes spell selection easier. I don't think it makes the sorcerer feel more magical. I do not think changing the sorcerer to use spell points is the way to go.


A few years ago, I said that the problem with BM Ranger was that it didn't have a free acting beast, and that the reason why it didn't was because of extra attack. I suggested to remove extra attack from the BM Ranger and give him a free acting beast. People on this forum made fun of me for it. Then WotC did exactly what I suggested with the Revised Ranger. Suddenly, the entire community was on-board and totally cool with it.
Don't strain your arm patting yourself on the back. The whole community isn't totally on-board and cool with the revised ranger. It's easy to see the revised beast mastery conclave requires its beast in combat, has a clunky action economy around initiative, and has more hangups to consider with multiclassing. Overall it's far stronger, but it's not necessarily right. It's not uncommon for UA to feature community suggestions, even community suggestions that don't ultimately work. Just look at everything surrounding Pact of the Blade.

[Citan]

I'm reading what you guys are saying here, but I think my point is being missed. I'll be as clear as I can in this post.

The sorcerer, in past editions, was the only class that could cast spontaneously. Other casters had to load specific spells into their slots. In exchange for spontaneous casting, sorcerers knew fewer spells.

In 5e, every caster can cast spontaneously. The sorcerer has no advantage in this regard, but still knows fewer spells. He also has inferior spell recovery and no ritual casting.

The Real Problem: No Class Identity

People misdiagnose the sorcerer's drawbacks as the problem with the class. Those drawbacks are not the problem. The problem is that the sorcerer lost its niche. In this edition, sorcerers are not sorcerers. That's why they're so dissatisfying, tied with the PHB ranger whose beast master companion has less free will than a mule. Tweaks can adjust the class' power, but giving it more spells known or some recovery will not fix the feel.


I'm sorry but we'll probably always stay in heavy disagreement here.

I frankly don't care about older editions. The important thing is how in one given edition each class gets some defining features, that other classes could not replicate at all or only with a very heavy feat/multiclass investment.

In 5E, Sorcerer is the one, and the only one that can flex his magic in both raw power, shape and duration, all day long, all life long.

That is his identity, he needs nothing else.
Increase the number of spell known and metamagic known so a player doesn't need to "walk on eggs" when building a Sorcerer, and most people will be more than happy to play it like this, it may even trump Bards or Wizards.

[Kane0]

I would posit that manipulating spells to suit your needs is not quite the same as manipulating magic to suit your needs. A small difference but one that I feel is important when considering the sorcerer's fluff and the mis atch of that fluff to its mechanics.

[Theodoxus]

I'm gonna be laughing my ass off when Paizo's Pathfinder 2 sorcerer solution becomes the Go To solution for 5E. I have no idea what it is, but I'm betting it'll be a resounding success - because reasons.

[Easy_Lee]

I'm sorry but we'll probably always stay in heavy disagreement here.

I frankly don't care about older editions. The important thing is how in one given edition each class gets some defining features, that other classes could not replicate at all or only with a very heavy feat/multiclass investment.

In 5E, Sorcerer is the one, and the only one that can flex his magic in both raw power, shape and duration, all day long, all life long.

That is his identity, he needs nothing else.
Increase the number of spell known and metamagic known so a player doesn't need to "walk on eggs" when building a Sorcerer, and most people will be more than happy to play it like this, it may even trump Bards or Wizards.

Two things:

Tradition is important whether you want it to be or not. I could go on for pages about comfort, conservatism, how people prefer games they're familiar with over totally new experiences, and so on. But I don't think I need to. You and I both know that throwing away the past is a bad idea.
Based on average Metamagic cost, the level three sorcerer has approximately one-and-a-half uses per day of his entire shtick - Metamagic. In contrast, Bards can use their inspiration an average of three times per long rest at level one and up to five times per short rest by level eight, and that's just one part of the Bard's schtick. The only Sorcerer who can "flex his magic" all day long is the Coffeelock. And I don't think you much like Coffeelocks, so I have no idea what you mean by "all day long, all life long."

People don't like the fact that only Sorcerers get Metamagic. Many players resent the sorcerer class in this edition for that reason. Multiple homebrews add Metamagic feats to address this. Some combine the sorcerer and warlock into a single class.

By making Metamagic the sorcerer's identity but giving sorcerers inordinately limited access to that identity, WotC made sorcerers unsatisfying to play and annoyed every other spellcaster in one stroke.

I get that you don't like change and don't like me, but that doesn't change the fact that I'm right about this. Metamagic as the sorcerer's identity was, for multiple reasons, the wrong choice.

[Daphne]

Tradition is important whether you want it to be or not.

It isn't, most 5e players didn't play previous editions, so this "tradition" is not actually important. And can we really can it a tradition? Spontaneous casting was Sorcerer's thing only in 3.X, Sorcerers didn't have that in 4e, where they were blasters while Wizards were controllers but otherwise used a similar power system.

[Easy_Lee]

It isn't, most 5e players didn't play previous editions, so this "tradition" is not actually important. And can we really can it a tradition? Spontaneous casting was Sorcerer's thing only in 3.X, Sorcerers didn't have that in 4e, where they were blasters while Wizards were controllers but otherwise used a similar power system.

Tradition is the biggest reason why 4e was unsuccessful. There was plenty to like about 4e, but it did not feel like D&D anymore to many players - so many that WotC did away with it. That's why they made 5e so similar to 3.5e.

Again, I don't have to explain why tradition is important because you already know it. Resistance to change and adherence to tradition versus a desire for extreme and rapid change is the entire basis behind Conservatism versus Progressivism as fundamental political ideologies. That's right, tradition is so important in life that it's about half of our political system.

Gaming is no exception. Create a sequel to a game that has nothing to do with the original and you alienate half of the old audience. Nintendo made more money off of Mario Party sequels than they did off of Mario Galaxy. Game developers, regardless of type, can dismiss tradition only at their own great peril. It's a bad idea.

D&D is a winding dragon with unpredictable chaos on one side and oppressive, lawful order on the other. Sometimes you have to lean further in a particular direction, but lean too far and you'll fall off and fail. Under no circumstances is it the right idea to totally throw out what came before, like you think you know better. That's an immature, childish, and unprofitable way to approach design.

[Daphne]

Skip



4e failed multiple reason, saying it failed "because tradition" is a reductionism;
5e is not similar just to 3.X, it takes things from every edition (including 4e), I would even say it feels more similar to 2e than any other edition;
You ignore the fact that most of the player base never tried older editions, so tradition is irrelevant to them.

[strangebloke]

4e failed multiple reason, saying it failed "because tradition" is a reductionism;
5e is not similar just to 3.X, it takes things from every edition (including 4e), I would even say it feels more similar to 2e than any other edition;
You ignore the fact that most of the player base never tried older editions, so tradition is irrelevant to them.


Even if you've never played another edition of dnd, your dm might have, and sorcerer does look easier to play at first glance, which would reinforce a (possibly wrong) expectation. Moreover, there tends to be a bit of cross-influence, where DND bleeds into other media. It would be pretty easy to get the idea that 'sorcerer's blast' even if you'd never played dnd.

[strangebloke]

Tradition is important because it informs people's expectations. They expect sorcerer to be simpler or to excel at blasting, neither of which is really true. I see that as a problem.

Time has a way of fixing this anyway, though.

But I disagree with your assertion that sorcerers only get 1.5 metamagic usages at level three. They get three, if you don't use font of magic and you do get good metamagic advice. Basically so long as you don't take quicken or heighten right away you're golden. That's right on par with bards and their bardic inspiration at that level, or 1/Sr abilities that a lot of classes get.

[Daphne]

Basically so long as you don't take quicken or heighten right away y you're hold. That's right on par with bards and their bardic inspiration at that level, or 1/Sr abilities that a lot of classes get.

I agree with you, but the problem is that you can only learn new Metamagic at level 10 (and a lot of groups don't get this far), so if you want to use Quicken or Heighten you will have to choose them at level 3 when they are barely useful.

[Theodoxus]

Tradition is important, but tradition for the sake of tradition isn't.

What I find fascinating is people complaining about the sorcerer because it lacks identity from older editions, but at the same time, completely love the warlock and it's as far from it's original identity as you can get.

Both classes came out in 3rd Ed (though Warlocks weren't Core). The sorcerer was the blaster niche - which it kept into 4th. If WotC had kept that tradition, it'd be the blaster of 5E, but instead, they took the Warlock from 3rd, which was about as gishy a gish that you could ask for, and turned it into the blaster with the emo lifestyle and mechanic.

WotC heard the complaints, requesting an honest gish, and gave us the Hexblade, returning the warlock to its traditional roots, yet never addressed the problem with sorcerer.

Instead, they created a sorcerer bloodline (Divine Soul) that opened up the sorcerer's spell list to clerics. Which is literally the opposite direction from tradition.

WotC is as schizophrenic in what they think we want, as we are! No wonder so many call for the removal of the class, it's pretty obvious everyone wants something different, and each of those differences is easier to recreate as a subclass of other caster classes.

[strangebloke]

I agree with you, but the problem is that you can only learn new Metamagic at level 10 (and a lot of groups don't get this far), so if you want to use Quicken or Heighten you will have to choose them at level 3 when they are barely useful.

I think that even having one metamagic you get to use reasonably often, like subtle or empower, is still pretty good, and quicken metamagic is really only a dead pick for two or three levels. Distant or extend are harder to build into, but still are potentially awesome.

Heighten is straight-up bad until like 8th or 9th level, so waiting until 10th isn't such a big deal. TBH I think it would be better if it's cost was spell level/2 round up, so that it'd actually be usable on spells lower than 4th level.

But yeah, there are a few things that could be done to make sorcerer a little more intuitive. I think Zman and many others have suggested reasonable fixes in this regard. My personal take would be: staple a metamagic option and a couple bonus spells known that synergize with it to each subclass.

Draconic sorc gets quicken and a few 'channeled' spells. Fits with Draconic in that you're going to be throwing more attacks out there.
Wild gets heighten and some enchantment/illusion spells
Divine soul and Shadow sorc already get bonus metamagic options; it isn't hard to think of appropriate spells for them.
Storm Sorc gets careful and evocation spells (like call lightning and thunderwave)

That would resolve all my issues with the class right now.

[Citan]

2. People don't like the fact that only Sorcerers get Metamagic. Many players resent the sorcerer class in this edition for that reason. Multiple homebrews add Metamagic feats to address this. Some combine the sorcerer and warlock into a single class.

By making Metamagic the sorcerer's identity but giving sorcerers inordinately limited access to that identity, WotC made sorcerers unsatisfying to play and annoyed every other spellcaster in one stroke.

1. I get that you don't like change and don't like me, but that doesn't change the fact that I'm right about this. Metamagic as the sorcerer's identity was, for multiple reasons, the wrong choice.
1. You're dead wrong on both accounts: I like change (I'm a homebrewer myself, even if my work is in stasis since more than one year XD) and I have no beef with you.

However, I have no hesitation expressing opposition to whomever I think is reducing debate. And here you were.

2. "Many players resenting Sorcerers because only one to get metamatics" is something totally unquantified, and it cannot be. You just brought this from a hat, maybe because you personally regret that design choice, IDK.

The things that have been visibly causes of frustration as anyone could check by him/herself in internet forums (aiming at those simply because easier to double-check than live conversations) are very different, and have been solely regarding how the Sorcerer is played with...
First, lack of spell known.
Second, lack of Metamagic flexibility.
Third, lack of Sorcery points (with that point being often put by people having chosen the most expensive metamagics right off the bat).

None of those is pertaining Sorcerer's "identify".
If you go that way, then Bard would have no identity either: Rogue beat him in skills, Wizard and Druid beat him in versatility. In older editions, he was all built around mass AOE buffs that required him to sing or play an instrument. Now that musicality is just expressed through the fact instruments can be focus, but Bard is otherwise a simple caster with just one feature that is largely used but could be easily replicated with spells (Bardic Inspiration) and two others that go largely unnoticed (Song of Rest, Countercharm).

[Pex]

My only issue with Sorcerer is too few spells known. Presuming I only choose to know the highest level spell I can as soon as I can, I'm always finding myself wanting one more spell than I will get of each level including Cantrips. Accepting I can't know everything and have to make choices, there will be a spell each level I really, really want but don't get.

I wouldn't say no to a third metamagic at 2nd level and Sorcery Points recovery, but it's the spells known that frustrates me.

[Dimers]

The biggest complaint I've seen regarding sorcerers is that they run out of sorcery points too quickly in the first two tiers of play. ... Lack of spells known is the second biggest complaint I've seen.

My experience is different. Most frequently I see laments about spells known, most frequently by far. The people who say that often follow it up with "I'd love the class if they just got some thematic spells known from their subclass", something to that effect.

[Luccan]

The sorcerer needs a buff, polling as one of the two least satisfying classes (http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?4403-2017-D-D-5E-Class-Satisfaction-Survey-Results). I don't think the class needs a huge buff and I would not want the class to change to be the same as other spell casters. But I do think the sorcerer needs improvement.

Recovering some sorcery points on a short rest might be the ticket. If I made this change, I'm not sure how many points I would have the sorcerer recover, nor what the scaling should be. Starting at 1 and ending at 4 (per the tiers of play) might be reasonable.

Another option (that could be combined with the first) is to convert all sorcerer spell casting to use sorcery points, similar to the spell point variant in the DMG. Some tables already do this. This would remove the need for Flexible Casting, simplifying the class and removing sketchy interactions with warlock spell slots.

What are the playground's thoughts?

I've been thinking for awhile that Sorcererous Origins could each use bonus spells, because I believe the small spells known is where it really suffers, but allowing recovery of sorcery points on short rest seems like a good idea too. Not sure I'd mix them, but given Wizards and some Druids get limited spell slot recovery on short rests, I think sorcery point recovery would be fair. Of course, that's their capstone, so now they need a massive nerf.

[Zalabim]

I'm gonna be laughing my ass off when Paizo's Pathfinder 2 sorcerer solution becomes the Go To solution for 5E. I have no idea what it is, but I'm betting it'll be a resounding success - because reasons.
Because porting Favored Terrain for the Ranger worked so well...

RPG design does go back and forth across companies, but I can only be surprised when Paizo manages to write a good mechanic even by accident, and it does seem only on accident.

Tradition is important, but tradition for the sake of tradition isn't.

What I find fascinating is people complaining about the sorcerer because it lacks identity from older editions, but at the same time, completely love the warlock and it's as far from it's original identity as you can get.
Hold that thought. The concerns and praises about identity are concerning the class right now. The warlock brings something unique to the game. The sorcerer not so much. How they compare to previous editions has nothing to do with it.

I also didn't get any Gish vibe from the original Warlock. It was constantly magical, but never felt fighter-ish.

[Theodoxus]

Because porting Favored Terrain for the Ranger worked so well...

RPG design does go back and forth across companies, but I can only be surprised when Paizo manages to write a good mechanic even by accident, and it does seem only on accident.

Hold that thought. The concerns and praises about identity are concerning the class right now. The warlock brings something unique to the game. The sorcerer not so much. How they compare to previous editions has nothing to do with it.

I also didn't get any Gish vibe from the original Warlock. It was constantly magical, but never felt fighter-ish.

Really? On a complaint about tradition, you don't think previous editions, i.e. tradition, has anything to do with it? Dude, that's literally what the complaint is about.

Regarding warlock gish, everyone I knew that played warlock - legitimately small sample size - went with eldritch glaive; what with damage reduction, fiendish resilience and energy resistance, they made pretty decent front liners when played that way.

[ToastyTobasco]

Honestly, the problem I have playing my sorcerer, is that there are so many metamagics, but you only get to pick two for most of the game, and many of them are just bad. Improve the metamagic system, and the class can really come into its own.

As a sorcerer, you cannot hope to match the versitility of a wizard. They get more spells known, larger lists of spells to chose from, more spells per day, and they can ritual up spells when time isnt an issue. They can just cast more variety of spells more often than the sorcerer. So you need to hyper focus on a single thing, and changes are there is a wizard archetype that does it better anyhow.

A classic choice is the blaster sorcerer, thats what they were generally best at in earlier editions.

But then we look at the evocation wizard, who can for free make every spell they cast ever ignore enough allies to effectively ignore the issue of friendly fire. at level 6 their cantrips always land some damage, at 10 they add their casting stat to spell damage, at 14 they can maximize a spell once a day (or kill themselves doing it a lot). This is the competition, lets see what the sorcerer can do;

Lets go with dragon bloodline, thats the traditional damage archetype. At level 1 they get survival abilities. They dont need to cast mage armor, thats fine, they cant afford the spell selection and slot to take it anyhow. they get an extra hp/level, doesnt help them kill things, but its a good thing to have. at 6 they get to add their caster stat to damage, but only to 1 element. Its not as good as wizards, but they get it 4 levels earlier. They also get resistance to that element at 6, and wings at 14, so more survivability again. So we NEED those metamagic to not just be worse than an evoker at everything.

your options:
Careful spell: can do what evokers do for free, by costing a sorcery point, but is less good because friendlies still take damage. Almost so bad it isnt worth taking for what it is designed to do.

Distant spell: Fun, but rarely is max range a huge issue, and there arent enough touch range spells to really justify taking it for that, if you are in 30', you may as well be in touch range when they attack back.

Extend spell: Most spells have thresholds of relevance. doubling a spell that lasts 1 round per level wont get you a second fight out of it, and it will probably still last the whole fight. 10m/level might see some use, but again, its super situational at best.

Subtle spell: Good for RP reasons, good to avoid counterspells, unique to sorcerer. A good choice, but doesnt really help on the damage dealer front.

Heightened: Gives disadvantage on saves, amazingly strong on single target effects, mediocre on aoe effects, expensive to use.

Quickened: Great option for action economy, except you cant use it to cast two real spells, so its a lot less amazing that it sounds, hard to justify 2 sorcerery points for a free cantrip or dodge action, but its still useful.

Twinned: This is the good stuff, lets you actually double the effectiveness of certain spells, single target concentration and damage spells really shine with this, but the price is extremely high to use. Twinned disintigrate sounds amazing until you realize you are basically spending all of your sorcery points to do it. Worth taking on most builds even so.

Empowered: This is the way you can do damage to a target above the +cha to damage ability, and helps make low dice rolls less painful. Unique to sorcerers, and inexpensive to use, and chosen after the roll. This is a great metamagic, even if it isnt as strong as twin or heighten.

With twin, empower, heighten, subtle and quicken, you really actually feel like you have some strong options for different needs, you cant stack them on the same spell, and your point pool is limited, but at least you would have some options. The problem is you get 2. A third at 10, and a fourth at 17. You cant even get all 5 of the good ones, never mind experimenting with the bad ones or the ones that require to specific of an edge case. You spend the vast majority of your time playing with 2 metamagic options, and that just isnt enough to make you feel better at what you do than an evocation wizard.

And that problem happens with each direction you want to take sorcerer, the wizard archtype usually does it better.

Better metamagic and more access to it is the only way you are going to fix the sorcerer without turning them into wizards.

Bolding by me
Even after playing a sorceror for a few games, this is the part that bothers me the most. I like Cha based characters and casters. It's just so different from INT and the roleplay changes accordingly. My biggest gripe with Sorcerors is that we get a stumpy spell list and Wizards can do damn near everything we can do, do it better AND get stuff back on short rests.

I have similar complaints about Warlock, yeah you get free spells in invocations but 2 spells for the first few levels just plain sucks. I love the flavor of Warlock to no end but it is so damn boring to play after those two spells are gone. Every single fight is "Well if I cast now, we could get screwed later" Yeah short rest recharge is fantastic but unless you run a short rest being 5-30min, things could go south.

[TheUser]

Bolding by me
Even after playing a sorceror for a few games, this is the part that bothers me the most. I like Cha based characters and casters. It's just so different from INT and the roleplay changes accordingly. My biggest gripe with Sorcerors is that we get a stumpy spell list and Wizards can do damn near everything we can do, do it better AND get stuff back on short rests.


Maybe you just played poorly?

I realized that subtle spell illusions and enchantments are 10x better than those with verbal and somatic components and that a sorcerer doesn't need to short rest to get resources back (they can get slots back with a bonus action). No wizard will ever amount to the sneak mage that a sorcerer can until an illusion wizard gets level 6 slots for until dispelled* major images.


Invokers can keep their allies safe but if you start using 3 dimensional space when launching your spells its easy to do almost the exact same thing while also increasing the average damage of your spells by egregious amounts using empower. No wizard can re-roll damage flubbs on AoE spells either (seriously underrated).

No wizard can twin buffs like haste or polymorph.