A Thought on Dragon Shaman. Would like some additional insight.

[Rizban]

As most people know, Dragon Shaman is an incredibly underwhelming class, and there have been quite a few attempts to fix it. The one I see most often is doing a semi-gestalt with dragonfire adept. Tonight, I was building a character for something and came up with an idea for a small tweak to the class that I wanted to share and get input on.


Breath Weapon: Make the breath weapon become available at 2nd level, dealing only 1d6 damage. Otherwise, the progression is unchanged.
Draconic Auras: Dragon Magic added new draconic auras that the dragon shaman may choose. At every odd level, the dragon shaman may choose a new draconic aura to a total of 12 at 19th level (rather than a maximum of 7 at 9th level).
Draconic Heritage: A dragon shaman gains Draconic Heritage as a bonus feat at 1st level, which must be the same dragon type as his Totem Dragon. For the purposes of draconic feats, a dragon shaman is treated as a sorcerer of his class level.
Activating Draconic Feats: For the purposes of draconic feats that trigger when a spell is cast or that require sacrificing a spell slot, a dragon shaman uses his breath weapon. Feats that trigger when a spell is cast are triggered when the dragon shaman attacks with his breath weapon. Feats that require sacrificing a spell slot may be activated by sacrificing the breath weapon for 1d4 rounds just as if the dragon shaman had made a breath attack (this doesn't trigger other feats). In either case, the effective spell slot is treated as a level equal to the base number of dice of damage his breath weapon deals. So, a 6th-level dragon shaman will be activating draconic feats as though using 3rd-level spell slots.


Not a massive power boost, but I think it's an interesting take on things.

Questions to Consider
Do you think this would grant enough of an incentive to make the class interesting and worth playing without it being too weak?
With these changes in place, is there anything else you think it needs to be a fun, viable class in a moderately well optimized party?
Are there further tweaks needed to make this more balanced? Is giving unlimited draconic feat activations too strong? When compared to invocations?
What role do you see a character of this class filling in a more or less typical adventuring party?
Thematically, does this feel more "dragony" than the original version, which is only very loosely tied to dragons?

[nonsi]

.
Seems to me like more auras would just make things more cumbersome. 7 Seems a high enough number for making a character do what you'd want it to do with auras. It's not like auras can be as versatile as spells.

I always found it lacking that the DS doesn't reflect the awesome physical might of dragons.

And in general, the official rules allow you to build a Raptoran DFA that took Dragonborn of Bahamut (1st level) and gain flight + breath + senses + effects + metabreath + invocations.
Why in the world would I prefer DS over DFA?

[Nifft]

IMHO the Dragonfire Adept does the breath-weapon thing so much better that there's just not much room left for the Dragon Shaman.

I'd suggest taking nice things away from the Dragon Shaman and giving them to to the Dragonfire Adept, either as new invocations or as an ACF.

Draconic Aura is already available as a feat, for example, and auto-scales for Dragonfire Adepts (thanks to their dragonblood-granting feat). So what more do they need...

- More auras? Make a Least Invocation which grants 3 auras, and grants more auras at set levels. The auras auto-scale, as normal for (Dragonblood) characters.

- Healing Touch? Make a Lesser Invocation, so you can get it on time (at level 6). The benefits auto-scale at the same level that they would for a Dragon Shaman.


Is there anything else vital that's missing?

[Rizban]

Thanks, but that doesn't actually answer any of my questions or address the changes I suggested at all. Simply adding more auras was probably the smallest change to the class I mentioned. I'm interested in the thoughts on the draconic feats.

I'm well aware that DFA is better. I even mentioned that in my first post. So, I'm not sure that just repeating that as an argument against doing anything with DS really helps, nor do I really think making DFA stronger or more versatile to be the right direction. I'm trying to do something interesting with the dragon shaman.

[Nifft]

Thanks, but that doesn't actually answer any of my questions or address the changes I suggested at all. Simply adding more auras was probably the smallest change to the class I mentioned. I'm interested in the thoughts on the draconic feats.

I'm well aware that DFA is better. I even mentioned that in my first post. So, I'm not sure that just repeating that as an argument against doing anything with DS really helps, nor do I really think making DFA stronger or more versatile to be the right direction. I'm trying to do something interesting with the dragon shaman.

Guess I should have spelled it out better.

IMHO the Dragon Shaman isn't fixable, not unless you massively overhaul what it does.

So my suggestion was to take the parts you like, and move them over to a better foundation -- for example, the DFA, but Sorcerer or Bard could also work.


If you want to massively overhaul what it does, that is also an option. You'd need to do a lot more than just adding low-power perks like Draconic Heritage.

You'd need to do something like...
- Dragon Shaman gain maneuvers & stances as a Warblade, from the disciplines White Raven, Devoted Spirit, and Stone Dragon.
- Maneuvers refresh when you use your breath weapon.
- Breath weapon is available from level 1.

... or whatever, but it's got to be pretty massive, since the Dragon Shaman chassis is just so awful.


-----

Regrading your post, "semi-gestalt with DFA" doesn't seem to mean anything concrete, and it's certainly not the same as what I suggested ("remove nice things from DS, make into invocations for DFA"), so yeah. Not really sure what you think I missed.

Your tweaks would allow a DS to spend feats to buy [Draconic] effects, but those feats are already allowed for DFAs, and they're not used by DFAs because they're overall pretty bad.

You've proposed some small tweaks to something very bad. The bad thing remains very bad.

Not sure why you want to save the bad thing, but if you do, my advice is to tweak longer, harder, and deeper.

[Deepbluediver]

Thanks, but that doesn't actually answer any of my questions or address the changes I suggested at all. Simply adding more auras was probably the smallest change to the class I mentioned. I'm interested in the thoughts on the draconic feats.

I'm well aware that DFA is better. I even mentioned that in my first post. So, I'm not sure that just repeating that as an argument against doing anything with DS really helps, nor do I really think making DFA stronger or more versatile to be the right direction. I'm trying to do something interesting with the dragon shaman.
Honestly, I agree with Nifft that the class really needs an extensive fix. I think there are lots of potential directions you could go in, but I'll try to answer your questions specifically.


Do you think this would grant enough of an incentive to make the class interesting and worth playing without it being too weak?
No.
Hang on, let me qualify that- what are we comparing it to? It's a perfectly serviceable tier-3ish class. I think you have to work at your build to get it to be decent at any one thing, but it's not terribad or broken.


With these changes in place, is there anything else you think it needs to be a fun, viable class in a moderately well optimized party?
Unique, interesting abilities.


Are there further tweaks needed to make this more balanced? Is giving unlimited draconic feat activations too strong? When compared to invocations?
Given how little I've ever heard about Draconic feats as far as optimization goes, I doubt it. Unless I misunderstand the interaction, your breath-weapon will still be limited to 1 or at most 2 uses per fight, and you're trading away one of your few major class features for things that can usually be replicated easier or sooner with spells.


What role do you see a character of this class filling in a more or less typical adventuring party?
Thematically, does this feel more "dragony" than the original version, which is only very loosely tied to dragons?
It's a bit more role-play-ey I guess, but I don't really see this as changing much mechanically.



The original class wasn't "bad" IMO, it just wasn't anything special. Especially not when it was linked to something as integrated in fantasy as DRAGONS.
I liked your idea of gaining access to stuff normally reserved for other types of classes- I think it shows good creativity. I just don't think it goes far enough in terms of boosting power or adaptability. If you want to make the class really stand out, then you gotta be willing to knuckle down and rebuild it from the ground up. I have some ideas of my own to that end if you're interested.

[Rizban]

I have some ideas of my own to that end if you're interested.I'm definitely interested in hearing what others have to say, as long as it's not "play something else."

[nonsi]

I'm definitely interested in hearing what others have to say, as long as it's not "play something else."

You could draw ideas from this class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18777479&postcount=23).
It might be over the top for what you're trying to achieve (even though it's by all means inferior to fullcasters), but if it's draconic aspects that you're looking for, you're most likely to find them there.

[Deepbluediver]

I'm definitely interested in hearing what others have to say, as long as it's not "play something else."
I've never gotten around to doing the writeup for my own fixes for the Dragon Shaman or Dragonbreath Adept, but I'll try to describe the main points and the reasoning behind them.


First, decide what you want the class to be. And it's alright if you want the class to be flexible and not be shoehorned into a specific role, but having a goal guides you into what sort of abilities you want for the class.

For me, I decided that the Dragon Shaman would represent the physical might of dragons, while the DBA represents the more magical aspects. To that end, I shuffled ALL the auras off to the DBA, since for what I wanted they feel like they are just cluttering up the class. Then I set about buffing the DS: d12, full BAB, Fighter bonus feats or Ranger weapon style feats, etc etc etc.

Next I tweaked the damage dice of their breath weapon, so it's now 1d10 at level 1, and increases every 3rd level: 2d10 at 4th, 3d10 at 7th, up to 7d10 at 19th. This makes the damage largely the same progression as for Sneak Attack, but it FEELS different, which is an important element of style I think (my version of Skirmish, for example, deals damage in d8's). I increased the cooldown to once per 1d6 rounds, but I'll come back to that more later.


I also started casting about for inspiration, and I eventually came across the Dragon Disciple (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/dragonDisciple.htm). Like many PrCs, it's underwhelming at best and a trap at worst, but no one has ever turned down stat-boosts, so I decided to incorporate those as part of something else.

Specifically, I reworked Draconic Adaptations. These are the big "unique and interesting" class features I mentioned. The existing draconic adaptations are so "meh" I'd just give them to players at level 1 along with their Totem Dragon choice. My version gives the player an Adaptation at levels 2, 6, 12, and 18, and there are 8 to choose from (9 really, but the last is specifically for multi-classers).


Wings of the Dragon grant flight; if taken at level 2 maybe only have them let you glide, but since most spellcasters can gain flying around levels 5-7, making the DS wait until level 19 is way to late (a chronic problem with non-spellscasters in 3.5)
Heart of the Dragon grants a bonus to saves (equal to 1/2 your DS level) to any effect that would cause you to become Dazed, Dazzled, Energy Drained, Frightened, Paralyzed, Panicked, Shaken, Sickened, Sleeped, or Stunned
Scales of the Dragon boosts your Con score*, and gives you energy resistance equal to 1/2 your DS level of the same type as your breath weapon
Claws of the Dragon boosts your Str score*, allows you to deal lethal damage with unarmed strikes, and gives you a monk's unarmed damage
Tail of the Dragon boosts Dex*, and gives you a bonus to resist being Tripped or Bullrushed (like a Dwarve's racial Stability)
Shadow of the Dragon boosts Int*, and grants you the Commune with Dragon special ability; if taken at 2nd level, have it act more like Augury (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/augury.htm).
Eyes of the Dragon boosts Wis*, and grants Darkvision; if you already have Darkvision, it removes light-sensitivity and light-blindness
Fangs of the Dragon boosts Cha*, and reduces the cooldown on your breath weapon to 1d4
Touch of the Dragon (is for multiclassers) makes the damage and range of your breath weapon equal to a DS of your ECL, and boosts the spells or other special features from other classes at 1/3 your DS level

In this way, a player has to pick and choose, allowing for different builds and increasing replayability, instead of having every single DS be almost exactly like every other DS.
*the boost is +2 at 2nd level, +4 at 9th level, and +6 at 16th level

Also from a roleplaying aspect, someone else linked me to these: draconic esses (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Taninim_(5e_Race)#Draconic_Essences_and_Compulsion s), which are kind of like mini-versions of a Paladin's code and seem like a great way to add some flavor to your interactions with other creatures.


Finally, lets talk about something not directly class-related: metabreath feats. Metabreath feats either boost your breath-weapon's damage or grant it other effects (usually causing various status ailments). I think that the damage-boosts to special abilities are boring, but I won't get into that rant right now. The issue is that most players can't really use their breath weapon more than once per encounter.

Part of that is the cooldown: you need to be really lucky with the rolls, even at 1d4, to get to use it often. The other problem is that if you try and use it once melee has gotten started, you tend to hit your own team. The cone is usually judged as better than the weapon because your enemies rarely line up single file for you and combat rarely takes place at more than 50 ft. anyway, but unless your other teammates have all managed to acquire energy immunity trying to target with a cone is likely to result in incidents of friendly fire.

Also, just like metamagic has a cost to using it (in higher spells slots), metabreath feats have a cost- they increase the cooldown for your breath ability. As we discussed though, using your breath weapon more than once in an encounter is already difficult, and adding even a single metabreath effect tends to make it nigh-impossible. The end result of all this is that most players pile on a ton of metabreath feats until the cooldown is 1d4+15 and just use their breath weapon as a combat-opening nuke. Which can be a nice-if-somewhat-cheesy trick IMO, but it's the ONLY thing people do with it.

My preference would be to scrap all the damage-related metabreath feats, and instead of increasing the cooldown have the cost be in reducing damage dice. So for example, you might have to choose between dealing 4d10 fire damage, or applying the Sickening Breath effect (I'm pulling numbers of my ass here, but lets say it's cost is 2) which means you deal 2d10 fire damage and anyone hit by it is Sickened. So you trade damage for status effects, which players can decide if it's worth it encounter by encounter.


Ok, if you made it through that wall of text, good for you, thanks for reading. You don't have to use any or all of my suggestions, if you don't like what they make of the DS. But hopefully there's at least something in there that appeals to you, even if only as inspiration for your own fixes.

[Rizban]

Despite the whole, "I want to be a dragon!" theme that they shoehorn in there while then giving almost nothing actually related to dragons, that's not how I see the class. That's the Dragon Disciple. I see the dragon shaman as the draconic version of a priest. The dragon shaman is the religious leader of the kobold tribe who worships their patron dragon as a sort of demigod. He is the human who has become the mouthpiece of the dragon to the kingdom the dragon has settled in and come to rule over. She is the obsessive lover of dragons who wishes to dedicate herself heart and soul to spreading the awesomeness that is Dragon to the world around them. It's the mortal herald of the dragon overlord to the mere mortals within his dominion, the priest who worships a Dragon Ascendant, the lover who happily gives birth to half-dragon offspring.

I see dragon shamans as channeling the power of dragons as clerics channel the power of their gods. Any dragon-like abilities that the dragon shaman gains is the expression of that channeled power, not some sort of mutation into a dragon. So, simply giving them draconic aspects, or buffing up their physical scores, or making them slowly turn into dragons isn't really within my idea of what a dragon shaman is or should be.


I appreciate the thoughts and insight. I'm actually planning to do more for the dragon shaman than just what I listed in the opening post, but I wanted to see what the thoughts on those changes were while I worked on the rest.

[Deepbluediver]

Despite the whole, "I want to be a dragon!" theme that they shoehorn in there while then giving almost nothing actually related to dragons, that's not how I see the class. That's the Dragon Disciple. I see the dragon shaman as the draconic version of a priest.
...
I see dragon shamans as channeling the power of dragons as clerics channel the power of their gods.
Name-wise I think you could make the argument for either, but in the long run that's not really important.

Anywho, let me just clarify one thing- do you envision the DS's power as coming from another source, more like the Cleric, or being internal, more like a Wizard or Barbarian? If it's the former, how do you plan to differentiate the DS thematically from someone playing something like a Cleric of Tiamat?

Mostly what you're talking about is flavor though.

[Rizban]

This is the rough draft I have so far. I'd like to refine it a bit more and come up with at least another 3 or 4 draconic auras. I'm also working on the new dragonpacts as well, so that each dragon type will have 5 different dragonpacts to choose from. As it is, only reds have 3, while blue, brass, and bronze have 2 each, and black, copper, gold, green, and silver each only offer 1.

I also need to add language as to how it interacts with PrCs. I'm seeing it as any PrC that advances arcane spellcasting would advances breath weapon damage, effective caster level, auras known, and possibly aura strength (if I feel generous).


Dragon Shaman

Base Attack
BonusFort
SaveRef
SaveWill
SaveSpecialBreath
WeaponDraconic
Auras1st+1
+2
+0
+2Draconic aura +1, draconic power, dragon patron
-
32nd+2
+3
+0
+3Breath weapon, draconic adaptation
1d6
33rd+3
+3
+1
+3Draconic lineage
1d6
44th+4
+4
+1
+4Draconic resolve, energy resistance
2d6
45th+5
+4
+1
+4Draconic aura +2
2d6
56th+6/+1
+5
+2
+5Dragonpact
3d6
57th+7/+2
+5
+2
+5Draconic aura (second aura), draconic adaptation
3d6
68th+8/+3
+6
+2
+6Energy immunity
4d6
69th+9/+4
+6
+3
+6Commune with dragon patron
4d6
710th+10/+5
+7
+3
+7Draconic aura +3
5d6
711th+11/+6/+1
+7
+3
+7Second dragonpact
5d6
812th+12/+7/+2
+8
+4
+8Draconic aura (third aura), draconic adaptation
6d6
813th+13/+8/+3
+8
+4
+8—
6d6
914th+14/+9/+4
+9
+4
+9—
7d6
915th+15/+10/+5
+9
+5
+9Draconic aura +4
7d6
1016th+16/+11/+6/+1
+10
+5
+10Thrid dragonpact
8d6
1017th+17/+12/+7/+2
+10
+5
+10Draconic aura (fourth aura), draconic adaptation
8d6
1118th+18/+13/+8/+3
+11
+6
+11—
9d6
1119th+19/+14/+9/+4
+11
+6
+11—
9d6
1220th+20/+15/+10/+5
+12
+6
+12Draconic aura +5
10d6
12

Hit Die: 10
Class Skills (2 + Int modifier per level):

Class Features
All of the following are the class features of the Dragon Shaman.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Dragon shamans are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with light and medium armor, and with shields, but not tower shields.

Dragon Patron: Each dragon shaman serves a powerful, ancient dragon who becomes their patron. By performing a mystical ceremony, a dragon shaman forms an arcane bond with a willing dragon, even if the two have never met or are separated by vast distances. It is through this link that a dragon shaman gains their powers. The dragon patron may choose to contact the dragon shaman telepathically at any time, regardless of distance and across planar boundaries, though the patron only rarely does so. How active a role the dragon plays in the dragon shaman's life depends on the personality and interests of the dragon patron.

A dragon shaman must choose a type of true dragon as his patron: black, blue, brass, bronze, copper, gold, green, red, silver, or white. His alignment must be within one step of the patron dragon, or it will refuse the bond.

The dragon shaman gains additional class skills based on the type of dragon chosen. He also gains the related Draconic Heritage feat as a bonus feat.

Draconic Power: A dragon shaman can select draconic feats as if he were a sorcerer of his class level. His caster level for all of his class features is equal to his class level. The save DC for any of the dragon shaman's supernatural or spell-like abilities is equal to 10 + 1/2 his class level + his Cha modifier, unless otherwise stated.

Unlike a sorcerer, a dragon shaman does not gain spell slots. For the purposes of draconic feats that interact with spellcasting, a dragon shaman uses his breath weapon. The effective spell level of his breath weapon for the purposes of activating draconic feats is equal to its base damage. So, the breath weapon of a 6th level dragon shaman counts as a 3rd-level spell.

Feats that activate when a spell is cast, such as Draconic Flight, are activated when he attacks with his breath weapon. If he is required to sacrifice a spell slot to activate a feat, such as Draconic Arcane Grace, he may sacrifice a use of his breath weapon, requiring him to wait 1d4 rounds before using it again as normal.

Draconic Aura (Su): By channeling the arcane might of his patron dragon, the dragon shaman can form an aura of power. A dragon shaman knows three draconic auras of his choice at 1st level, gaining more auras known at every odd level. He can choose to manifest any aura he knows. His aura's benefits affect each ally within 30 feet, including himself. Any aura penalties instead affect each enemy within range. He may define any creature within his aura as ally, enemy, or neither as he chooses.

The dragon shaman's aura bonus begins at +1 and increases by 1 for every class five levels he has.

A dragon shaman may have two auras active at the same time at level 7, three active at level 12, and four at level 17.

Projecting an aura is a swift action. The aura remains in effect until the dragon shaman dismisses it as a free action or he becomes unconscious or is slain.

Breath Weapon (Su): At 2nd level, a dragon shaman gains a breath weapon of a type based on his dragon patron. Each time he uses his breath weapon, he can choose to breath in either a 15-foot cone or a 30-foot line. His breath weapon deals 1d6 damage for every two class levels. A successful Reflex saves (DC 12 + 1/2 class level + Con modifier) halves this damage.

A dragon shaman is immune to his own breath weapon but not to other breath weapons or similar effects, even those of other dragon shamans. Once a dragon shaman breathes, he can’t use his breath weapon again until 1d4 rounds later.

At 10th level, the range of a dragon shaman's breath weapon increases to a 30-foot cone or a 60-foot line. The range increases again at level 16 to a 60-foot cone or 120-foot line.

Draconic Adaptation (Ex): Channeling the arcane might of their patron dragon changes a dragon shaman physically, granting him some of the benefits of dragonkind. At 2nd level, a dragon shaman gains low-light vision, darkvision out to 30 feet, and his natural armor increases by +1.
At level 7, darkvision increases to 60 feet, and the bonus to natural armor increases to +2.
At level 12, low-light vision distance doubles, darkvision functions out to 90 feet, and natural armor increases to +3.
Finally, at level 17, low-light vision is four times that of a normal human, darkvision extends to 120 feet, and natural armor increases to +4.

Additionally, each time a dragon shaman gains dragonic adaptation, he gains a draconic bonus feat. He must meet the prerequisites of the feat he chooses.

Draconic Lineage: Dragon shamans of 3rd level gain the Dragon Lineage feat appropriate to their patron dragon as a bonus feat. For example, a dragon shaman with a blue dragon as their patron dragon would gain Blue Dragon Lineage.

Draconic Resolve (Ex): At 4th level, a dragon shaman becomes immune to the frightful presence of dragons. He also becomes immune to paralysis and sleep effects.

Energy Resistance (Ex): A dragon shaman of 4th level gains resistance 10 to the energy type associated with his patron dragon. At 9th level, he gains immunity to that energy type.

Dragonpact (Su): A dragonpact is a mystical bargain made between a sorcerer and a powerful dragon, which costs the sorcerer gold, spell slots, and tedious negotiation. A dragon shaman, however, has a powerful dragon patron who grants him the benefits of such pacts without need for such meaningless haggling. At 6th level, a dragon shaman may select any dragonpact offered his dragon patron, gaining the spell-like abilities that the pact offers with no further cost to himself. The effective spell slot for his dragonpact is the effective spell level of his breath weapon.

A dragon shaman may change his chosen dragonpact with an hour of meditation, but he may do so only once per day and must not have used any of the spell-like abilities of his current dragonpact that day. Once the meditation is completed, the dragon shaman immediately loses one dragonpact and gains the new one.

At levels 11 and 16, a dragon shaman may form additional dragonpacts at the same time, allowing him to have access to more spell-like abilities each day.

Commune With Dragon Patron (Su): While a dragon patron may choose to contact its dragon shamans at any time, they rarely do so. Beginning at 9th level, a dragon shaman gains the ability to telepathically contact his dragon patron to ask questions directly. This functions as the commune spell, but the dragon shaman is limited to asking only one question per three class levels. This ability may be used once per week.

Draconic Auras
Breath Guard: Allies within your aura are immune to damage from your breath weapon. Additionally, they gain resistance 5 × your aura bonus to your breath weapon's energy type.
Dragontongue: This aura grants a bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks. Allies within your aura also temporarily gain the ability to speak draconic.
Arcane Insight: This aura grants a bonus on Decipher Script, Knowledge, and Spellcraft checks. While active, you have the ability use read magic as a spell-like ability at will.
Keen Senses: Your aura grants a bonus to Initiative and twice your aura bonus to Listen and Spot checks. Allies within range temporarily gain low-light vision.
Hoard Sense: This aura also grants a bonus on Appraise checks. While active, you, but not your allies, may use a spell-like ability similar to detect magic, except that it detects coins and gems within range of your aura.
Frightful Presence: You gain a frightful presence like a true dragon while this aura remains active. The DC to resist this effect is 10 + 1/2 your class level + your Cha modifier + your aura bonus. Your allies are immune to this effect. Creatures who succeed on their Will save remain immune to your frightful presence for 24 hours.
Dragonhide: This aura grants damage reduction 2/magic for each point of your aura bonus. It also grants you, but not your allies, spell resistance equal to your Cha bonus plus twice your aura bonus.
Draconic Prowess: This aura grants a bonus on weapon damage rolls and the save DC of any effect that has the same energy type as your breath weapon.
Arcane Vigor: Your aura grants fast healing equal to your aura bonus, but it can only restore creatures to a maximum of one-half their normal hit points.
Resolve: The aura of resolve grants a bonus on Concentration checks, Constitution checks, and saves against fear, paralysis, and sleep.
Dragonfire: Your breath weapon deals 1d6 extra damage for each point of your aura bonus (this does not increase your breath weapon's effective spell level). Your allies deal extra weapon damage equal to your aura bonus. This extra damage is energy damage of the same type as your breath weapon.
Potent Breath: The recovery time for breath weapons within your aura is reduced by a number of rounds equal to your aura bonus, to a minimum of 1.
Swiftwing: Your aura grants a bonus on Climb, Jump, and Swim checks and increases climb, fly, and swim speed by 5 × your aura bonus. It does not grant these move speeds if you do not already have them.

[Nifft]

The changes in the full-progression post are significant and some are great.

Giving away Dragonpacts is a great idea. You turn a non-caster into a caster, and some of the pacts have good spells. The only potential problem I see is that there aren't very many Draconpacts, so the DM will need to come up with a bunch more. That's not necessarily a problem, of course, if the DM is on board with that and good at game design / balance.

You might want to create a bunch more Dragonpacts and link to them.


I like a lot of the aura improvements you've made -- some of them are really good.

The aura that grants SR ought to center around (10 + class level), which is generally a 50% success chance from equal-CR opponents (generally). You could add aura bonus to that.

My suggestion would be to actually REDUCE the number of auras, give fewer of them, and make each one more versatile. Right now it's a bit like each Aura has one optimal occasion, which makes them a bit of a no-brainer -- "we are doing a social encounter so I put on the social aura". (That's how they were written by WotC so this isn't really a criticism of you.)

IMHO a more interesting design might be to focus on some thematic aspect of a dragon, and then give bonuses that apply across a lot of different scenarios. For example:


Aura of Ferocity - You and your allies gain a bonus to Intimidate checks, the save DCs of [Fear] effects, Rage & Frenzy duration, attack rolls when Charging, and to Initiative.
Aura of Guile - You and your allies gain a bonus to Bluff and Move Silently checks, the save DCs of Illusion effects, AC against opportunity attacks, and Reflex saves.


Both of those are good in the following situations:
- Social encounters
- Before combat (sneaking vs. initiative)
- Buffing spellcasting
- Buffing melee


The bonus Draconic Feats are a poor fit to the rest of the class, which is mostly good at armored stabbing.

The forced bonus Lineage feat is from a list that's mostly garbage, so that feature is worth very little. I mean look at Red Dragon Lineage: it gives you a fire breath weapon. The class already gave you a fire breath weapon. So you're trading out your fire breath weapon to use a different fire breath weapon. This can be decent (not great) for a Sorcerer because they don't normally have any breath weapon, but for a Dragon Shaman it's redundant.

Also the Lineage feat list is restricted to Core dragons, while everything else could apply to a non-Core dragon patron. So it's both poor and restrictive.


Regarding the "skeleton" of the class -- why not go full Dragon HD and give the DS d12 / 6 skill points / all good saves? Having a pile of skill points means the 1st level lack of features won't hurt nearly as much.

[Rizban]

The changes in the full-progression post are significant and some are great.

Giving away Dragonpacts is a great idea. You turn a non-caster into a caster, and some of the pacts have good spells. The only potential problem I see is that there aren't very many Draconpacts, so the DM will need to come up with a bunch more. That's not necessarily a problem, of course, if the DM is on board with that and good at game design / balance.

You might want to create a bunch more Dragonpacts and link to them.I'm working on new dragonpacts so that each type of dragon offers 5.



I like a lot of the aura improvements you've made -- some of them are really good.

The aura that grants SR ought to center around (10 + class level), which is generally a 50% success chance from equal-CR opponents (generally). You could add aura bonus to that.I was debating how to handle that one. SR and DR are one of those things that tends to be either worthless or overpowered. I pretty much just threw my first idea out there and figured I'd go back and run some numbers on it later. I definitely have a lot to refine on this class before I'd consider it anything more than a rough draft.


My suggestion would be to actually REDUCE the number of auras, give fewer of them, and make each one more versatile. Right now it's a bit like each Aura has one optimal occasion, which makes them a bit of a no-brainer -- "we are doing a social encounter so I put on the social aura". (That's how they were written by WotC so this isn't really a criticism of you.)Originally, WotC gave you all the auras available within 9 levels. Later, they published more so that there were choices but didn't change the progession, making anything beyond level 9 in the class pointless. I wanted to change that without slowing the progression. Hence, more auras.

I think I like having more options than fewer. Ideally, I'd like to have 15 or 16 auras available, allowing players to gain 12 of them through class levels and pick up any others they might want using the Draconic Aura feat (which can already be taken multiple times, albeit it grants slower progression to aura strength). It makes you make choices in which powers you'll have available and when, which is a thing I like. Just personal preference on that one.

As to making them single purpose, that was also a deliberate choice on my part, though it was heavily influenced by the original design of the auras. I wanted the auras to have a fairly clear purpose and use. I can see your reasoning on that though.


IMHO a more interesting design might be to focus on some thematic aspect of a dragon, and then give bonuses that apply across a lot of different scenarios. For example:


Aura of Ferocity - You and your allies gain a bonus to Intimidate checks, the save DCs of [Fear] effects, Rage & Frenzy duration, attack rolls when Charging, and to Initiative.
Aura of Guile - You and your allies gain a bonus to Bluff and Move Silently checks, the save DCs of Illusion effects, AC against opportunity attacks, and Reflex saves.


Both of those are good in the following situations:
- Social encounters
- Before combat (sneaking vs. initiative)
- Buffing spellcasting
- Buffing meleeThat's an interesting direction to take the auras. I'm going to think about that a bit more when I revise things. I might implement some of that. Would be interesting not just for party buffing but also for multiclassing. You'd definitely want to pick that Aura of Ferocity as a DS/Barb multiclass. Hmm...



The bonus Draconic Feats are a poor fit to the rest of the class, which is mostly good at armored stabbing.

The forced bonus Lineage feat is from a list that's mostly garbage, so that feature is worth very little. I mean look at Red Dragon Lineage: it gives you a fire breath weapon. The class already gave you a fire breath weapon. So you're trading out your fire breath weapon to use a different fire breath weapon. This can be decent (not great) for a Sorcerer because they don't normally have any breath weapon, but for a Dragon Shaman it's redundant.

Also the Lineage feat list is restricted to Core dragons, while everything else could apply to a non-Core dragon patron. So it's both poor and restrictive.*shrug* Yes and no. Bonus feats aren't a bad thing. I think the lineage feats are meh, but they're not awful. Yeah, Red Dragon Lineage doesn't give you anything new, but it does up your breath weapon damage from d6s to d8s and creates an ongoing damage effect at full damage that the target has to spend a full-round action and make a successful save to extinguish. It may not be a new ability, but it's a definite upgrade over the standard breath weapon. If your DS is doing a breath weapon focus, then this is definitely the lineage feat you want.

Here's the list of lineage feats and their apparent roles.

Black (melee debuff) - Covert breath weapon into a touch poison that deals damage and causes fatigue.
Blue (blaster) - Create multiple electric orbs, which each add your Cha mod to damage.
Brass (control) - Creature falls asleep for 1 round (Will negate). Probably the worst option here due to the action required and being single target, but sleeping creatures are helpless, allowing coup de grace, and are considered willing, allowing for allies to hit them with nasty spells/effects.
Bronze (control/defense) - Swift action to force opponents to spend actions to move away, giving you space and potential action advantage.
Copper (control) - Slow enemies around you.
Gold (buffer) - Grant allies a luck bonus on a save of the ally's choice.
Green (debuff) - Debuff a target's Will save. In the running for worst option, but it does setup for a save-or-suck spell.
Red (breath attacker) - Increases breath weapon potency. I covered this above.
Silver (control) - AoE paralyzation (Fort negate).
White (melee) - Rage as a barbarian, retain spellcasting and other abilities normally blocked by rage.



Draconic feats overall are pretty underwhelming, but I felt like they fit thematically. The class grants 6 over 17 levels, with 3 in the first 3 levels, one of which is selectable. It may not be great, but there are a number of feats that grant bonuses based on the number of draconic feats you have. This gives you a fairly front loaded bonus on those.

If you're focused on an armored stabbing build, then Draconic Toughness gives you 6hp and doesn't cost a feat slot. The Draconic Heritage feat you get at 1st gives you some increasing save bonuses. Draconic Claw can give you natural weapons. Draconic Knowledge gives an increasing bonus on a Knowledge Devotion build. The individual feats aren't great, but they have a decent niche use which gives a small, thematic buff to the class.

In other news, I've also added Draconic Legacy onto the normal progression at level 8, bringing it up to 7 bonus draconic feats overall. You gain the spells known from Draconic Legacy as SLAs.



Regarding the "skeleton" of the class -- why not go full Dragon HD and give the DS d12 / 6 skill points / all good saves? Having a pile of skill points means the 1st level lack of features won't hurt nearly as much.I decided against that based on a mix of not wanting to give it too much and not wanting to make it into a dragon. I wanted to keep that definite line where they're worshiping a dragon, not becoming one or gaining all the benefits of being one.

[Caelestion]

I too have been working on a Dragon Shaman upgrade, mostly by adding in preset invocation-like abilities. I particularly like your upgrades to the auras, as that's something I hadn't considered.

[Rizban]

I too have been working on a Dragon Shaman upgrade, mostly by adding in preset invocation-like abilities. I particularly like your upgrades to the auras, as that's something I hadn't considered.Adding draconic invocations seems to be the direction most people go, the second most common seems to be doing a slow transformation into a dragon. I didn't want to just make it into a slight variation of the dragonfire adept or have it turn into a dragon. Neither fit the concept of the class to me.

[Ranged Ranger]

-SNIP-
I see the dragon shaman as the draconic version of a priest. The dragon shaman is the religious leader of the kobold tribe who worships their patron dragon as a sort of demigod. He is the human who has become the mouthpiece of the dragon to the kingdom the dragon has settled in and come to rule over. She is the obsessive lover of dragons who wishes to dedicate herself heart and soul to spreading the awesomeness that is Dragon to the world around them. It's the mortal herald of the dragon overlord to the mere mortals within his dominion, the priest who worships a Dragon Ascendant, the lover who happily gives birth to half-dragon offspring.

I see dragon shamans as channeling the power of dragons as clerics channel the power of their gods. Any dragon-like abilities that the dragon shaman gains is the expression of that channeled power, not some sort of mutation into a dragon. -SNIP-
I love this!

I also need to add language as to how it interacts with PrCs. I'm seeing it as any PrC that advances arcane spellcasting would advances breath weapon damage, effective caster level, auras known, and possibly aura strength (if I feel generous).
I like this .


Dragon Patron: Each dragon shaman serves a powerful, ancient dragon who becomes their patron. By performing a mystical ceremony, a dragon shaman forms an arcane bond with a willing dragon, even if the two have never met or are separated by vast distances. It is through this link that a dragon shaman gains their powers. The dragon patron may choose to contact the dragon shaman telepathically at any time, regardless of distance and across planar boundaries, though the patron only rarely does so. How active a role the dragon plays in the dragon shaman's life depends on the personality and interests of the dragon patron.

A dragon shaman must choose a type of true dragon as his patron: black, blue, brass, bronze, copper, gold, green, red, silver, or white. His alignment must be within one step of the patron dragon, or it will refuse the bond.

The dragon shaman gains additional class skills based on the type of dragon chosen. He also gains the related Draconic Heritage feat as a bonus feat.
Love this, but.... No Love for Gem Dragons?! :smallfrown: :smallsigh:

Draconic Power: A dragon shaman can select draconic feats as if he were a sorcerer of his class level. His caster level for all of his class features is equal to his class level. The save DC for any of the dragon shaman's supernatural or spell-like abilities is equal to 10 + 1/2 his class level + his Cha modifier, unless otherwise stated.

Unlike a sorcerer, a dragon shaman does not gain spell slots. For the purposes of draconic feats that interact with spellcasting, a dragon shaman uses his breath weapon. The effective spell level of his breath weapon for the purposes of activating draconic feats is equal to its base damage. So, the breath weapon of a 6th level dragon shaman counts as a 3rd-level spell.

Feats that activate when a spell is cast, such as Draconic Flight, are activated when he attacks with his breath weapon. If he is required to sacrifice a spell slot to activate a feat, such as Draconic Arcane Grace, he may sacrifice a use of his breath weapon, requiring him to wait 1d4 rounds before using it again as normal.
Good thematic options, if nothing else. Nice to have them available if the player wants them.

Draconic Aura (Su): By channeling the arcane might of his patron dragon, the dragon shaman can form an aura of power. A dragon shaman knows three draconic auras of his choice at 1st level, gaining more auras known at every odd level. He can choose to manifest any aura he knows. His aura's benefits affect each ally within 30 feet, including himself. Any aura penalties instead affect each enemy within range. He may define any creature within his aura as ally, enemy, or neither as he chooses.

The dragon shaman's aura bonus begins at +1 and increases by 1 for every class five levels he has.

A dragon shaman may have two auras active at the same time at level 7, three active at level 12, and four at level 17.

Projecting an aura is a swift action. The aura remains in effect until the dragon shaman dismisses it as a free action or he becomes unconscious or is slain.
:smallbiggrin:

Dragonpact (Su): A dragonpact is a mystical bargain made between a sorcerer and a powerful dragon, which costs the sorcerer gold, spell slots, and tedious negotiation. A dragon shaman, however, has a powerful dragon patron who grants him the benefits of such pacts without need for such meaningless haggling. At 6th level, a dragon shaman may select any dragonpact offered his dragon patron, gaining the spell-like abilities that the pact offers with no further cost to himself. The effective spell slot for his dragonpact is the effective spell level of his breath weapon.

A dragon shaman may change his chosen dragonpact with an hour of meditation, but he may do so only once per day and must not have used any of the spell-like abilities of his current dragonpact that day. Once the meditation is completed, the dragon shaman immediately loses one dragonpact and gains the new one.

At levels 11 and 16, a dragon shaman may form additional dragonpacts at the same time, allowing him to have access to more spell-like abilities each day.
:biggrin::cool:

Class Features
Breath Guard: Allies within your aura are immune to damage from your breath weapon. Additionally, they gain resistance 5 × your aura bonus to your breath weapon's energy type.
Dragontongue: This aura grants a bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks. Allies within your aura also temporarily gain the ability to speak draconic.
Arcane Insight: This aura grants a bonus on Decipher Script, Knowledge, and Spellcraft checks. While active, you have the ability use read magic as a spell-like ability at will.
Keen Senses: Your aura grants a bonus to Initiative and twice your aura bonus to Listen and Spot checks. Allies within range temporarily gain low-light vision.
Hoard Sense: This aura also grants a bonus on Appraise checks. While active, you, but not your allies, may use a spell-like ability similar to detect magic, except that it detects coins and gems within range of your aura.
Frightful Presence: You gain a frightful presence like a true dragon while this aura remains active. The DC to resist this effect is 10 + 1/2 your class level + your Cha modifier + your aura bonus. Your allies are immune to this effect. Creatures who succeed on their Will save remain immune to your frightful presence for 24 hours.
Dragonhide: This aura grants damage reduction 2/magic for each point of your aura bonus. It also grants you, but not your allies, spell resistance equal to your Cha bonus plus twice your aura bonus.
Draconic Power: This aura grants a bonus on weapon damage rolls and the save DC of any effect that has the same energy type as your breath weapon.
Arcane Vigor: Your aura grants fast healing equal to your aura bonus, but it can only restore creatures to a maximum of one-half their normal hit points.
Resolve: The aura of resolve grants a bonus on Concentration checks, Constitution checks, and saves against fear, paralysis, and sleep.
Dragonfire: Your breath weapon deals 1d6 extra damage for each point of your aura bonus (this does not increase your breath weapon's effective spell level). Your allies deal extra weapon damage equal to your aura bonus. This extra damage is energy damage of the same type as your breath weapon.
Potent Breath: The recovery time for breath weapons within your aura is reduced by a number of rounds equal to your aura bonus, to a minimum of 1.
Swiftwing: Your aura grants a bonus on Climb, Jump, and Swim checks and increases climb, fly, and swim speed by 5 × your aura bonus. It does not grant these move speeds if you do not already have them.
Should the heading on this list read Auras instead of class features?

The changes in the full-progression post are significant and some are great.

Giving away Dragonpacts is a great idea. You turn a non-caster into a caster, and some of the pacts have good spells.
Agreed!

My suggestion would be to actually REDUCE the number of auras, give fewer of them, and make each one more versatile. Right now it's a bit like each Aura has one optimal occasion, which makes them a bit of a no-brainer -- "we are doing a social encounter so I put on the social aura". (That's how they were written by WotC so this isn't really a criticism of you.)

IMHO a more interesting design might be to focus on some thematic aspect of a dragon, and then give bonuses that apply across a lot of different scenarios. For example:


Aura of Ferocity - You and your allies gain a bonus to Intimidate checks, the save DCs of [Fear] effects, Rage & Frenzy duration, attack rolls when Charging, and to Initiative.
Aura of Guile - You and your allies gain a bonus to Bluff and Move Silently checks, the save DCs of Illusion effects, AC against opportunity attacks, and Reflex saves.


Both of those are good in the following situations:
- Social encounters
- Before combat (sneaking vs. initiative)
- Buffing spellcasting
- Buffing melee

I like the improved versatility suggestion and the examples...

[Rizban]

Love this, but.... No Love for Gem Dragons?! :smallfrown: :smallsigh:I'm planning to start with the 10 basic dragons from the MM and then build from there.

Good thematic options, if nothing else. Nice to have them available if the player wants them.


Should the heading on this list read Auras instead of class features?Yeah. Like I said, this is just the rough draft, and I haven't done any editing to it since just typing it out. Copy/paste errors are sure to crop up. :smalltongue:

[Deepbluediver]

I'm planning to start with the 10 basic dragons from the MM and then build from there.
Personally I'm not a fan of the 10 standard dragon types as presented. Gold, silver, and Copper? Ok, those are all elements. But Bronze and Brass? Those are alloys, and alloys composed mainly of copper, at that; they don't fit the theme. I'd rather see iron dragons, lead dragons, quicksilver (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_(element)) dragons, MAGNESIUM dragons maybe, and stuff like that.

Also, if we're going to give dragons a racial-alignment like outsiders, why just have Good and Evil? Why not use the entire 9-point alignment (https://1d4chan.org/images/thumb/4/45/Alignment_Demotivational.jpg/350px-Alignment_Demotivational.jpg) spectrum? Or if you want to, get even more complex (http://easydamus.com/Composite2.png) than that.

[Caelestion]

Magnesium would be a silly idea. However, the other metals did appear in 2nd Edition as various types of lesser metallic dragon.

[Deepbluediver]

Magnesium would be a AWESOME idea.
Corrected. :smallwink:

Also, in my own homebrew the current dragon types include: Stellar, Song, Imperial, Shimmer, Copper (name pending), Feathered, Astral, Battle, Pyre, Mist, Venom, Rust, Glacial, Nether, Shadow, Slag, Plague, and Fang.

Variants under consideration include: Bestial, Ectoplasmic, Howling, Hellfire, Chrono, Hex, Arboreal, Marine, Sand, & Deep.

[Caelestion]

Magnesium is a soft, flammable metal that also reacts with water at room temperature. It's also not a classic fantasy metal at all, so fake quotes aside, it would be a terrible choice for a dragon.

[Rizban]

Personally I'm not a fan of the 10 standard dragon types as presented. Gold, silver, and Copper? Ok, those are all elements. But Bronze and Brass? Those are alloys, and alloys composed mainly of copper, at that; they don't fit the theme. I'd rather see iron dragons, lead dragons, quicksilver (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_(element)) dragons, MAGNESIUM dragons maybe, and stuff like that.

Also, if we're going to give dragons a racial-alignment like outsiders, why just have Good and Evil? Why not use the entire 9-point alignment (https://1d4chan.org/images/thumb/4/45/Alignment_Demotivational.jpg/350px-Alignment_Demotivational.jpg) spectrum? Or if you want to, get even more complex (http://easydamus.com/Composite2.png) than that.

It's a neat idea, but I'm here to revise the Dragon Shaman, not the dragon everything. :smalltongue:

[Deepbluediver]

Magnesium is a soft, flammable metal that also reacts with water at room temperature. It's also not a classic fantasy metal at all, so fake quotes aside, it would be a terrible choice for a dragon.
You can't tell me that flaming, exploding dragons wouldn't make for awesome scenes!
Ok but seriously, I don't use Magnesium; the closest I have are the "slag" dragons, who's breath weapons is basically an RPG.

[Deepbluediver]

It's a neat idea, but I'm here to revise the Dragon Shaman, not the dragon everything. :smalltongue:
But your goal is to intimately link the DS to a dragons, either in general or to a specific one- you should give some thought to how they are going to act.

Here's an idea though- since your version of the DS is something like a cleric, maybe require each DS to be linked to a specific Dragon, but unlike a deity, each Dragon is only powerful enough to support a single DS. And the DR in turn acts sort of like a herald in addition to their other duties.

[Rizban]

But your goal is to intimately link the DS to a dragons, either in general or to a specific one- you should give some thought to how they are going to act.

Here's an idea though- since your version of the DS is something like a cleric, maybe require each DS to be linked to a specific Dragon, but unlike a deity, each Dragon is only powerful enough to support a single DS. And the DR in turn acts sort of like a herald in addition to their other duties.

That's pretty much exactly what my rough draft up there does, except for the limitations on the dragon.

[Deepbluediver]

That's pretty much exactly what my rough draft up there does, except for the limitations on the dragon.
Oh, sorry then- I must have missed it. I've been skimming your posts for mechanics but not really paying attention to all the fluff.