Movies Avengers: Infinity War [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Red Fel

2018-03-16, 01:14 PM

-No Son of Coul Haven't checked last season, don't blame me

Blame the TV series for that. And then go watch it. And then ask yourself why did I bother to watch this.

-No Nick Fury kicking alien asses like a real mot****

Honestly, I kinda want a standalone Fury: Origins movie, the way we're now getting these A Star Wars Story movies. I would love to see badass spy Nick Fury earning his way up the ranks at SHIELD.

-No WE GOTTA HULK style line

Wait for it.

-Hawkeye and Ant-Man are very much missed

Because arrows and bugs are totally going to help out against a galactic conqueror.

Let's be honest, they're fun, but they're B-listers. Besides, Ant-Man is getting a sequel; he doesn't need the extra hassle of fighting purple giants.

Also, judging from the Poster, I think Iron Man's death is assured. I mean, look at that Christ like pose.

Also, Do you think Spiderman is going to become the new main focus of the MCU, I mean he is down in front right in our eyeline.

I think they're preparing their second-phase heroes for when the first-phase heroes' contracts run out. Cap, Tony, and Thor are all running down the clock at this point; they need to have us eyeballing the leads for Marvel: The Next Generation.

I still say they really managed to capture the adorable awkwardness of Spidey in this guy.

Personally? Quite reasonably stoked about this film.

When Avengers first came out, I was really impressed; so much of the story was character-driven, rather than mindless action setpieces all stacked one on top of the other. There was a lot of dialogue, world-building, and character development, and it was good, really good, so that when we finally got to the action, it felt like an earned culmination to the arc. I also liked the fact that action happened outdoors, in daylight, which makes it so much easier to see than those dark, gritty, nighttime fight scenes we always seem to get.

This gives me confidence for Infinity War. Hopefully, they'll strike that same balance between story and action. And from the trailers, the fight scenes are - again - visible and brightly-lit, which my weakening eyes appreciate.

The big challenge with a movie like this is squeezing characters in in a way that feels meaningful. So I can see why Hawkeye and Ant-Man are nowhere to be found, for instance. I'm not holding my breath with respect to that; they're going to drop the ball somewhere, inevitably, and a lot of people will be asking, "Where is X?" But as long as they give the characters who do get plot-related screentime enough depth and development, it's going to be solid.

I'm confident that, at the very least, it will be a popcorn-munching good time. Even the worst among the Marvel movies (looking at you, Thor 2) at least gave us an entertaining romp worth sitting through. I have confidence that they'll do at least a little better than that, and if they can pull that off, it's a good movie.

Doesn't have to be high art. Just good. Really good.

Lacuna Caster

2018-03-16, 01:21 PM

I'm still baffled as to how Mantis transitioned from a quasi-topical vietnamese superheroine to a super-touchy alien space bug lady. I mean, I like the new version and all, but the history eludes me?

thorgrim29

2018-03-16, 01:55 PM

Because arrows and bugs are totally going to help out against a galactic conqueror.

Let's be honest, they're fun, but they're B-listers. Besides, Ant-Man is getting a sequel; he doesn't need the extra hassle of fighting purple giants.

Counterpoint, Falcon and Black Widow are in it. Falcon is a regular guy with a fancy jetpack, and Black Widow is a regular woman with pistols and fancy tasers. Antman is for sure more useful then they are. Hawkeye... not so much but he's just as much a core avenger as Black Widow is. Hell even Dr Strange's librarian is in the movie.

Speaking of B characters, Warmachine is on the poster (looking about as convincing as the MECs in X-Com Enemy Within, good job Marvel graphics department) so I assume he gets a bigger role then paraplegic best friend.

Lord Joeltion

2018-03-16, 01:55 PM

Blame the TV series for that. And then go watch it. And then ask yourself why did I bother to watch this.

Eh... I like the show. Specially Coulson. I didn't have much time to watch it this year tho

Because arrows and bugs are totally going to help out against a galactic conqueror.

Let's be honest, they're fun, but they're B-listers. Besides, Ant-Man is getting a sequel; he doesn't need the extra hassle of fighting purple giants.

Well, hear me out when I say these words, as the biggest Falcon fan in the room: Falcon is in this movie. As B-listers go, he's near rock bottom. Specially out of the three four Average Humans there are in MCU (I'm counting Nick, just cause).

Besides, in his Giant Man form, Ant-man can actually DO something vs the army, unlike Black Widow. Plus, his nonchalant personality would be missing some potentially funny scenes with all the scenery chewiness from Tony and Starlord.

ETA: Yes, I know Falcon is Caps buddy, but with Jesus Barnes on it; the Cap is already one sidekick too many.

The big challenge with a movie like this is squeezing characters in in a way that feels meaningful. So I can see why Hawkeye and Ant-Man are nowhere to be found, for instance. I'm not holding my breath with respect to that; they're going to drop the ball somewhere, inevitably, and a lot of people will be asking, "Where is X?" But as long as they give the characters who do get plot-related screentime enough depth and development, it's going to be solid.

I'm a firm believer they were removed from trailers for doublefold reasons (pick either two):
-They have little screentime, and most of it is too spoilery to show
-They will be missed throughout most of the film, but will show to do something awesome in the nick of time
-They will die unexpectedly/first, a la Johnny Cage
-Most of their scenes are "comedy gold", which doesn't fit the trailer so whoever edited the video just gave up

Kitten Champion

2018-03-16, 01:58 PM

I'm still baffled as to how Mantis transitioned from a quasi-topical vietnamese superheroine to a super-touchy alien space bug lady. I mean, I like the new version and all, but the history eludes me?

I believe the Abnett & Lanning run on GotG just retconned her to suit their needs - where she's mostly a narrative tool for the characters to reflect off of - because no one used her for a long while and... well, they could. Plus copyright IPs and comics, it's a thing. They kept enough of her original appearance and her name to justify her being Mantis, but the Celestial Madonna stuff I don't believe was mentioned. Marvel Studios took her a step further to make her fit the plot and be more comedic, same as Drax.

Mantis' general issue appears to be largely that she was more her creator's baby (apparently he kept making Mantises under different names even when he left Marvel, and vocally complained about the movie's portrayal of her) first and foremost and when he left she didn't see much longevity once divorced from him. There are a lot of characters like that.

Red Fel

2018-03-16, 02:13 PM

Eh... I like the show. Specially Coulson. I didn't have much time to watch it this year tho

I do, too. Have watched it since the beginning. And this season is very much a return to form after last season's... Underwhelming... Stuff.

Still, you'll understand once you've caught up.

Counterpoint, Falcon and Black Widow are in it. Falcon is a regular guy with a fancy jetpack, and Black Widow is a regular woman with pistols and fancy tasers. Antman is for sure more useful then they are. Hawkeye... not so much but he's just as much a core avenger as Black Widow is. Hell even Dr Strange's librarian is in the movie.

Speaking of B characters, Warmachine is on the poster (looking about as convincing as the MECs in X-Com Enemy Within, good job Marvel graphics department) so I assume he gets a bigger role then paraplegic best friend.

Well, hear me out when I say these words, as the biggest Falcon fan in the room: Falcon is in this movie. As B-listers go, he's near rock bottom. Specially out of the three four Average Humans there are in MCU (I'm counting Nick, just cause).

Besides, in his Giant Man form, Ant-man can actually DO something vs the army, unlike Black Widow. Plus, his nonchalant personality would be missing some potentially funny scenes with all the scenery chewiness from Tony and Starlord.

ETA: Yes, I know Falcon is Caps buddy, but with Jesus Barnes on it; the Cap is already one sidekick too many.

To be fair, Falcon may be set up to be the next Cap, like he was in the comics. And while Bucky has also been Cap, Black Panther suggests they may be exploring alternative avenues for that character. Point is that Falcon, like War Machine, is potentially second-gen; they're going to give him screentime.

As for Ant-Man snarking with Tony and Peter, you do see how that becomes a bit... hm... excessive, after a point? I mean, you've got Tony Snark, Peter Zero Chill, Doctor Sarcasm, Puppy Parker, and at a certain point you have more quips than actual dialogue.

I'm a firm believer they were removed from trailers for doublefold reasons (pick either two):
-They have little screentime, and most of it is too spoilery to show
-They will be missed throughout most of the film, but will show to do something awesome in the nick of time
-They will die unexpectedly/first, a la Johnny Cage
-Most of their scenes are "comedy gold", which doesn't fit the trailer so whoever edited the video just gave up

1 seems probable. 2 seems possible, but less likely. 3 seems unlikely; don't kill off a character unless there's an impact, and there's no impact if they've been absent. Especially true for Ant-Man, who, as mentioned, has a sequel, and killing him off so promptly after that's released just makes zero sense. 4 seems possible, but the wrong tone; hopefully, they're going more Black Panther and less Thor: Ragnarok with this one.

Rogar Demonblud

2018-03-16, 02:21 PM

Douglas

2018-03-16, 02:33 PM

I like how Peter assumes that "Doctor Strange" is a made up superhero alias rather than his real name.

Kitten Champion

2018-03-16, 02:55 PM

I'm surprised Spider-Man's in the movie as much as he appears to be, when the first trailer dropped I assumed he'd only be in the first act and get Worfed along with Iron Man when Thanos appears.

As for Ant-Man, I suspect we'll get something with him having been caught and sent back to prison after his escape in Civil War, and the events of this movie might go to explain why they reduce that punishment to mere house arrest... or it could be probation maybe.

Lacuna Caster

2018-03-16, 03:04 PM

Frankly, I like that they seem to be angling towards making Mantis something other than just another superpunchy, occasionally blasty hero. And if she follows the usual arc of an empathic hero, she'll also be non-lethal, which is a rarity in the MCU and thus welcome.
Oh, I have no specific grudge against the new version, and yeah, it could be interesting to see someone using psychic abilities to good effect.

Legato Endless

2018-03-16, 03:10 PM

The thing that grabs me most at the end of the trailer isn't the ever present quipping or action shots, or the look who gets to meet who. Those are all fun sure.

No, it's that very brief cut of a (probably) young Gamora holding hands with her father. Guardians has always been about dysfunctional families and their love, abuse, isolation.

With Thanos as our headliner for this, undergirding his pseudophilosophical balancing of life and death nonsense through magic rocks with a real theme about his relationship with his children might give a touch of humanity to this shameless popcorn fest. Not that there's anything wrong with pure popcorn.

Lord Joeltion

2018-03-16, 03:16 PM

I do, too. Have watched it since the beginning. And this season is very much a return to form after last season's... Underwhelming... Stuff.

Still, you'll understand once you've caught up.

Oh... I see... They did it again *cries in the corner*

To be fair, Falcon may be set up to be the next Cap, like he was in the comics. And while Bucky has also been Cap, Black Panther suggests they may be exploring alternative avenues for that character. Point is that Falcon, like War Machine, is potentially second-gen; they're going to give him screentime.

As for Ant-Man snarking with Tony and Peter, you do see how that becomes a bit... hm... excessive, after a point? I mean, you've got Tony Snark, Peter Zero Chill, Doctor Sarcasm, Puppy Parker, and at a certain point you have more quips than actual dialogue.

Hey, I never said it was a good idea, just that the potential for jokes is there. And we know how MCU goes when there is snarkiness potential: they will seize it. And if there is none: they will force it down your throat till you choke on those popcorn!!!!

I haven't looked at the BP/Bucky side. That sounds interesting. But I rather not have Falcon as Cap, because I haven't liked much that editorial decision. Besides, Bucky deserves it more than him, because please give him a second chance. He has the looks of our Lord and Saviour Krispy Cheesus!

3 seems unlikely; don't kill off a character unless there's an impact, and there's no impact if they've been absent. Especially true for Ant-Man, who, as mentioned, has a sequel, and killing him off so promptly after that's released just makes zero sense.

Yeah, well thell that to the Three Cavalieros Warriors Three. Honestly, #3 was just addressing Clint; and I only put it there bc I read it on Twitter. I also think it's unlikely we see any character's death on this one. If anyone, I'd vote for the Cap.

4 seems possible, but the wrong tone; hopefully, they're going more Black Panther and less Thor: Ragnarok with this one.

Never underestimate the power of everything below PG-13!!!

I like how Peter assumes that "Doctor Strange" is a made up superhero alias rather than his real name.

What do you mean it's not?!?!?

Ardentex

2018-03-16, 03:47 PM

Lvl45DM!

2018-03-16, 09:35 PM

The hype is real. My favorite part was Gamora tipping the hat to the comics by talking about the whole "wiping of galaxies with a snap". Also, Cap stopping Thanos' hand was one of the most bad-ass things I've seen in a while, and I can't even articulate it properly as to why.

Its honestly Evans's acting. Look as his face. Damn, its intense. Despite the fact that its a super-soldier from WW2 in a costume wrassling with a giant purple alien in gold armour, in a fictional African country you can feel what he's feeling.

Clertar

2018-03-18, 04:49 AM

Unexpectedly, the Russo brothers have ended up becoming the heart of the MCU in a really successful way. Joss Whedon was credited as a genius for making a film with 6 superheroes all together. And he did do a very good job (but he flopped it with Avengers 2). The Russos managed 12 superheroes, twice as many, in Civil War, and they're multiplying this number again in Infinity War, which hopefully will at least be better than Age of Ultron.

With Justice League, even with BvS, we saw the hard way how hard it can be to manage coexisting superheroes in a single movie. The Russos, and the screenwriters (the same ones for Civil War and Infinity War), no doubt with a good steering hand in Kevin Feige, are breaking glass ceiling after glass ceiling.

GloatingSwine

2018-03-18, 06:21 AM

Unexpectedly, the Russo brothers have ended up becoming the heart of the MCU in a really successful way. Joss Whedon was credited as a genius for making a film with 6 superheroes all together. And he did do a very good job (but he flopped it with Avengers 2).

Joss Whedon got a lot of residual credit for being Joss Whedon (before it became public he was a bit of a scumbag), but he's nowhere near the Nerd Director Jesus people thought he was when Avengers came out. He has basically one voice for characters, which is "quippy", which is why in the Avengers most of the actual characters have to get out of the way for quips and action.

(Check out the difference in how the dialogue sounds in Guardians of the Galaxy to Avengers, the Guardians all talk much more like real people and one of them can only say five words!)

It's not like ensemble movies are such an insurmountable task though, and that's what a big superhero crossover really is. It's an ensemble where the usual "everyone has unique skills and personality that all contribute to the caper" of something like Oceans Eleven gets turned up to, well, eleven.

I'm expecting Infinity War to have a lot of heroes who are just there to make things feel bigger*, with only a few lines of dialogue to hint at future character direction. It's likely most of the actual heavy character lifting will be done by Tony and Steve for the earth side and probably Gamora and Nebula for the Guardians.

* Which is not unreasonable, that's what most of the non-cosmic heroes are for in Infinity Gauntlet and basically everyone who isn't Adam Warlock is for in Infinity War

Lacuna Caster

2018-03-18, 08:37 AM

Unexpectedly, the Russo brothers have ended up becoming the heart of the MCU in a really successful way. Joss Whedon was credited as a genius for making a film with 6 superheroes all together. And he did do a very good job (but he flopped it with Avengers 2). The Russos managed 12 superheroes, twice as many, in Civil War, and they're multiplying this number again in Infinity War, which hopefully will at least be better than Age of Ultron.
I think Age of Ultron suffered from being an interstitial piece that had to satisfy the demands of a lot of other films in planned production, with the effect of feeling overstuffed despite the primary villain's anaemic development. 'Flopped it' seems a bit strong, though- it's still a perfectly serviceable movie, it just never reached it's full potential.

Also, Firefly/Serenity were very very good.

Aotrs Commander

2018-03-18, 09:16 AM

Er, guys and gals? Can we not drop/imply unmarked spoilers for the current season Agents of Shield, please? It's only just started airing in the UK, like, two weeks ago and we're a looooong way behind you folks stateside. Ta muchly.

Clertar

2018-03-18, 10:47 AM

I think Age of Ultron suffered from being an interstitial piece that had to satisfy the demands of a lot of other films in planned production, with the effect of feeling overstuffed despite the primary villain's anaemic development. 'Flopped it' seems a bit strong, though- it's still a perfectly serviceable movie, it just never reached it's full potential.

Also, Firefly/Serenity were very very good.

I would agree that Age of Ultron is a decent film. For the record, I meant that Whedon flopped the multi-superhero juggling in the movie, not the movie itself. And while it's true that it suffered from having to set up future movie archs, so could have Civil War, which had at least just as many. Compare Thor's arc in AoU with both Spider-man and Black Panther in CW.

Traab

2018-03-18, 11:05 AM

I do like the idea that this will be a changing of the guard movie, where a lot of the current big names are stepping down so the next gen can have their movie series to keep things going. Its a lot like wrestling. When the new characters come in, the old hands are supposed to help "get them over" with the crowd. Joey "Brown Shoes" Bannon would have a lot harder of a time turning into the new face of the company if Hulk Hogan didnt take a clean loss against him in a good story. Same for the movies. You cant just switch from iron man to penance movies, but if you have the guy show up in an iron man movie, work well within that film and get the chance to raise some interest, his stand alone movie will likely do a lot better.

GAZ

2018-03-18, 12:13 PM

I personally liked the Thanos vs Steve stand-off scene, as ludicrous as it may look for comics fans.

I love that it looks ludicrous to Thanos too. Look at his face, he's all "I don't get it. Why aren't you squished yet?"

When the heroes all out fight Thanos in the comics (after he cuts himself off from the omniscience of having all the gems and gives the heroes something like a 0.5% chance of winning) I'm pretty sure Cap is last man standing (however briefly).

https://welshyfilms.files.wordpress.com/2016/07/america.jpg?w=640

Because arrows and bugs are totally going to help out against a galactic conqueror.

Let's be honest, they're fun, but they're B-listers. Besides, Ant-Man is getting a sequel; he doesn't need the extra hassle of fighting purple giants.

Hawkeye has far more substantial showings than a lot of these characters. Hawkeye has demonstrated proficiency in contributing to the defeat of alien invasions before and practically shot the hellicarrier out of the sky. Avengers (https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9bCLV1yJHqM/V_Z8dXTexPI/AAAAAAAAAEo/tqdRvOSmHhQubU49U0t3Z6FKKc3XUY7OwCLcB/s320/mjEprge.gif) and Age of Ultron (http://wpmedia.nationalpost.com/2015/03/avengers.gif?w=620&h=289) both treat him like a core member of the team. Dropping him for Wong and Mantis feels like a disservice to the previous Avengers films.

As for Ant-Man snarking with Tony and Peter, you do see how that becomes a bit... hm... excessive, after a point? I mean, you've got Tony Snark, Peter Zero Chill, Doctor Sarcasm, Puppy Parker, and at a certain point you have more quips than actual dialogue.

I actually think it would be totally in line with what all these Marvel movies have been to have one scene of Tony, Quill, Parker, Strange, Lang, and Rocket all mouthing off simultaneously until like Gamora or Banner or somebody reminds them what's at stake and that they're being idiots.

The thing that grabs me most at the end of the trailer isn't the ever present quipping or action shots, or the look who gets to meet who. Those are all fun sure.

No, it's that very brief cut of a (probably) young Gamora holding hands with her father. Guardians has always been about dysfunctional families and their love, abuse, isolation.

With Thanos as our headliner for this, undergirding his pseudophilosophical balancing of life and death nonsense through magic rocks with a real theme about his relationship with his children might give a touch of humanity to this shameless popcorn fest. Not that there's anything wrong with pure popcorn.

I agree with almost all of this. Many of the phase 2 and 3 movies have had something to say about something on top of being action spectacles. Like you say, GotG is about dysfunctional family relationships. Plus Black Panther is about marginalized people, Ragnarok is about legacy, Civil War is about justice, Winter Soldier is about freedom, etc. I think the Russos have been a big part of that and I trust that they'll do a good job with this.

I also love that we'll apparently be getting a history and a story for Thanos. We know all the heroes, so it's great to get to know the villain.

And my one disagreement is that I am more enthused about all the different character interactions. I do know and love all these heroes and I do want to see what happens when they all meet each other.

Lacuna Caster

2018-03-18, 12:53 PM

I thought Age of Ultron made it clear that Hawkeye was looking to retire from active hero work? Give the scene with him in the homestead with the wife and kids? I wouldn't be surprised if he's just opted to duck out of the Avengers by now.

I would agree that Age of Ultron is a decent film. For the record, I meant that Whedon flopped the multi-superhero juggling in the movie, not the movie itself. And while it's true that it suffered from having to set up future movie archs, so could have Civil War, which had at least just as many. Compare Thor's arc in AoU with both Spider-man and Black Panther in CW.
Oh... yeah. Thor's little detour in AoU felt really awkward. Point to the Russos, I guess.

Rogar Demonblud

2018-03-18, 01:49 PM

It makes more sense in the extended scene. Really, what AoU needed was slightly different cuts to tighten up a few things and to open up time for the hooks. And maybe junking that scene between Nat and Bruce.

J-H

2018-03-18, 03:21 PM

I skipped Guardians of the Galaxy, Thor 3, the new Spider Man (3rd in less than 20 years), and Ant-Man. Haven't seen the most recent Star Wars movie or Black Panther due to kids and moving.

So...
Who are the two guys under Iron Man's armpits? I think the one on the right might be that Starlord guy from GG. The guy on the left is completely unfamiliar.
Is the bottom middle guy the new spider man? Doesn't look right for a Spidey costume.

I'm assuming the heavy guy behind Dr. Strange is from that movie (also skipped, didn't even realize it was MCU). Anyone else I'm assuming is from BP, GG, or some other random movie (like the alien in the blue helmet).

The Glyphstone

2018-03-18, 03:23 PM

Captain Beardmerica still just looks weird to me. Has he really been hiding somewhere so remote that he couldn't even shave?

So...
Who are the two guys under Iron Man's armpits? I think the one on the right might be that Starlord guy from GG. The guy on the left is completely unfamiliar.
Is the bottom middle guy the new spider man? Doesn't look right for a Spidey costume.

The guy on the left under Tony's arm is Steve Rogers, aka Captain Beardmerica. The guy on the right is Thor post-Ragnarok. The guy behind Strange is Wong, Strange's sidekick.

JadedDM

2018-03-18, 03:32 PM

So...
Who are the two guys under Iron Man's armpits? I think the one on the right might be that Starlord guy from GG. The guy on the left is completely unfamiliar.
Is the bottom middle guy the new spider man? Doesn't look right for a Spidey costume.

I'm assuming the heavy guy behind Dr. Strange is from that movie (also skipped, didn't even realize it was MCU). Anyone else I'm assuming is from BP, GG, or some other random movie (like the alien in the blue helmet).

Starlord from Guardians is the guy with the sci-fi laser pistol that he's pointing forward. The two men under Iron Man's armpits are (left) Captain America and (right) Thor.

Spiderman is the kid crouched on the hill, yeah.

The guy behind Strange is Wong, and yeah, he's from the Dr. Strange movie.

The blue alien is not wearing a helmet, she's a cyborg; that's Nebula and she's from Guardians.

Kitten Champion

2018-03-18, 03:33 PM

Captain Beardmerica still just looks weird to me. Has he really been hiding somewhere so remote that he couldn't even shave?

Obviously he's emulating his own hero, William Riker.

JadedDM

2018-03-18, 03:50 PM

Keep in mind he is a fugitive. He might have intentionally let the beard grow out so it's harder for people to identify him at first glance.

Rogar Demonblud

2018-03-18, 04:07 PM

More importantly, Chris Evans likes having a beard, and having to shave it is in the running for his least favorite thing about the role.

The Glyphstone

2018-03-18, 04:34 PM

More importantly, Chris Evans likes having a beard, and having to shave it is in the running for his least favorite thing about the role.

This makes more sense than any in-universe explanation, I think.

Clertar

2018-03-18, 05:22 PM

This makes more sense than any in-universe explanation, I think.

Does it make more sense if you take into account that Black Widow goes around with blond hair to also be less recognizable? https://www.racocatala.cat/imatges/smileys/pensar.gif

J-H

2018-03-18, 05:23 PM

Wow. I didn't recognize Cap or Thor.

The hair cut changes do not favor either of them... especially Captain Beardmerica.

Lord Joeltion

2018-03-18, 07:13 PM

I love that it looks ludicrous to Thanos too. Look at his face, he's all "I don't get it. Why aren't you squished yet?"

I know, right? That's probably where the genius lies. The scene is just a glimpse, but they managed to perfectly portray a meaningful reaction from both, while also keeping it totally badass for Caps. My bet is he can only hold it for half a second or two. Alternative theory is he somehow managed to smuggle a Stone on his pants to briefly boost his Beardawesomeness

PS: There's also the smart editing that makes it seem like Caps is saving Tony's ass, but that's not exactly why I think the scene works best. That's just a nice plus.

Hawkeye has far more substantial showings than a lot of these characters. Hawkeye has demonstrated proficiency in contributing to the defeat of alien invasions before and practically shot the hellicarrier out of the sky. Avengers (https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9bCLV1yJHqM/V_Z8dXTexPI/AAAAAAAAAEo/tqdRvOSmHhQubU49U0t3Z6FKKc3XUY7OwCLcB/s320/mjEprge.gif) and Age of Ultron (http://wpmedia.nationalpost.com/2015/03/avengers.gif?w=620&h=289) both treat him like a core member of the team. Dropping him for Wong and Mantis feels like a disservice to the previous Avengers films.

Yeah, please let's not give Hawkeye the Sif treatment :smallfrown:

I thought Age of Ultron made it clear that Hawkeye was looking to retire from active hero work? Give the scene with him in the homestead with the wife and kids? I wouldn't be surprised if he's just opted to duck out of the Avengers by now.

Then again, he also became a fugitive, so whether he stayed hidden with his family or sent them to a different shelter, it's up to interpretation.

I skipped Guardians of the Galaxy, Thor 3, the new Spider Man (3rd in less than 20 years), and Ant-Man. Haven't seen the most recent Star Wars movie or Black Panther due to kids and moving.

I know it's you life and all but, DUDE... how did you manage to miss out the three* movies that totally rocked the MCU when they came out? I mean, I know people who skipped certain films of the saga for reasons, but if you had also missed Winter Soldier you would have gotten a good Four of a Kind (https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3854/14720102477_71fc83fb12_b.jpg) in your hands.

*I'm leaving Thor out, because, as much as an improvement it was from earlier films; it still received a lot more critiques, when compared with the other three at least.

Captain Beardmerica still just looks weird to me. Has he really been hiding somewhere so remote that he couldn't even shave?

You mean Wakanda? Now that I think about it, I can't seem to recall many full shaved male faces there, barring Bilbo Baggins. Maybe that's a serious offense to the Kitten God? Something to do with whiskers? :smallconfused:

GAZ

2018-03-18, 08:19 PM

You mean Wakanda? Now that I think about it, I can't seem to recall many full shaved male faces there, barring Bilbo Baggins. Maybe that's a serious offense to the Kitten God? Something to do with whiskers? :smallconfused:

Steve hasn't been hanging out in Wakanda. The Infinity War Prelude comic has him, Sam, and Natasha working together to take down terrorists throughout the Middle East.

Rogar Demonblud

2018-03-18, 11:37 PM

Well, a beard would help out culturally in that region.

Lord Joeltion

2018-03-19, 09:30 AM

Steve hasn't been hanging out in Wakanda. The Infinity War Prelude comic has him, Sam, and Natasha working together to take down terrorists throughout the Middle East.

Marvel Comics are now part of Legends, silly. They don't count as real canon :smalltongue:

He still has his Wakandan visa, doesn't he? I mean, he was a refugee at some point, and we clearly see him fighting for Wakanda in this one so if he had any opportunity to shave, it should have been on Wakanda, while visiting Jesus Barnes or something.

GloatingSwine

2018-03-19, 11:17 AM

Marvel Comics are now part of Legends, silly. They don't count as real canon :smalltongue:

He still has his Wakandan visa, doesn't he? I mean, he was a refugee at some point, and we clearly see him fighting for Wakanda in this one so if he had any opportunity to shave, it should have been on Wakanda, while visiting Jesus Barnes or something.

Marvel Comics aren't even the same company as Marvel Studios any more (since Civil War).

Iruka

2018-03-19, 11:56 AM

The hair cut changes do not favor either of them... especially Captain Beardmerica.

Speak for yourself. :smalltongue:

Lacuna Caster

2018-03-19, 12:50 PM

Yeah, please let's not give Hawkeye the Sif treatment :smallfrown:
Whatever did happens to Sif, exactly?

Rogar Demonblud

2018-03-19, 01:10 PM

Not a thing.

Chen

2018-03-19, 01:35 PM

Back to the trailer itself, in the scene where Cap grabs Thanos' hand he still only has the power and space stones in the gauntlet. It looks like this is in the Wakanda jungle too. So, the Time stone is with Strange, Soul stone is MIA, Mind stone is with Vision and the Reality stone is still with the Collector. This tends to imply the Wakanda scenes are pretty early in the movie if there's only two stones in the gauntlet. Or it means Thanos is going to get the Reality and Soul stones in some other movie.

Lord Joeltion

2018-03-19, 01:42 PM

Whatever did happens to Sif, exactly?

She was cut from the film, despite that it made narrative sense for her to have an important role during Ragnarok. The only good thing is, the actress didn't give the writers the chance to actually kill her on screen :smallbiggrin:

Chen

2018-03-19, 01:59 PM

She was cut from the film, despite that it made narrative sense for her to have an important role during Ragnarok. The only good thing is, the actress didn't give the writers the chance to actually kill her on screen :smallbiggrin:

Though to be fair she was cut because she wasn't available to film it due to TV appearances.

Lord Joeltion

2018-03-19, 02:09 PM

Though to be fair she was cut because she wasn't available to film it due to TV appearances.

The actress alleged she was still called but refused after they told her what her part consisted of. It's safe to assume she would have fulfilled Hogun's role and received the same undeserved impalement.

Rogar Demonblud

2018-03-19, 02:45 PM

Well, NBC allegedly also demanded a seven figure 'convenience fee' for not scheduling her to be shooting for Blindspot while they were making the movie. It sounds like there wasn't a lot of good faith going on anywhere in the deal, although NBC did have to eat Jaimie's Failure to Appear fee because of the whole deal.

Clertar

2018-03-19, 02:58 PM

She does a decent job at Blindspot, much better than the campy Sif character. Although she might have worked better with Thor 3's tone.

LaZodiac

2018-03-19, 03:11 PM

Ramza00

2018-03-19, 03:21 PM

Obviously he's emulating his own hero, William Riker.

I would so love a Gargoyles remake with Chris Evans doing the voice of David Xanatos.

FreddyNoNose

2018-03-19, 11:32 PM

I'm glad Sif's gone so Valkyrie could get her badass rainbow bridge moment, to be honest. Sif's just busy Doing Other Things. She comes back home from a five month long tour of war against some horrible space goblins or whatever to find a smoking crater with the firedad sitting in the middle of it "oh hey Sif the apocolypse happened sorry you missed it".

Then she and Sutr can go on space adventures or whatever. Just stay out of the films because I really like Valkyrie.

Valkyrie is amazing! She steals every scene that Goldblum isn't in. Love them both actually. Thor Ragnarok is one of the better marvel films.

Have you seen the honest trailer for it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bJ_gb19pKQ

Dilvish

2018-03-20, 08:36 PM

Steve hasn't been hanging out in Wakanda. The Infinity War Prelude comic has him, Sam, and Natasha working together to take down terrorists throughout the Middle East.

Thanks to the previous mention of Bilbo, my first thought after reading your comment was Captain America and Black Widow are working with Sam Gamgee? :smallsmile:

Clertar

2018-03-21, 03:04 AM

In saw "Middle Earth" too :smallbiggrin:

Seharvepernfan

2018-03-27, 06:35 PM

Thanos and his children

I came here to ask who those 4 people with Loki were; guessing that's them?

Ramza00

2018-03-27, 08:14 PM

I came here to ask who those 4 people with Loki were; guessing that's them?

It appears the MCU is renaming some characters from the comics as a new group but using the same members of the old group but under a new name. Thano's children seems to be the new name for the group.

Now I am not an expert on comics by any means so I am going to keep this information in the spoiler blocks brief and it will probably cause you to ask more questions than it answers, for it will keep the answering brief.

I am doing two level of spoilers, first level answers the question but keeps spoilers as minimum as possible, the second spoiler block does the opposite and I mean extreme spoilers opposite.

The group in the comics is known as Thano's Black Order which are Lietauants who help Thanos track down the infinity stones. Note they are a recent invention only appearing in 2013 and already there is 4 different versions of this team in the comics (plus 2 more versions in tv shows). But yeah this group that is less than 5 years old is getting renamed Thano's children

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/6/64880/3497559-6614527337-Thano.jpg

https://nerdist.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/ThanosBlackOrder2.jpg

https://nerdist.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/childrenofthanos-07152017-768x432.jpg

The figurines in the 3rd picture come from a fan expo called Disney D23 where disney first revealed the Children of Thanos in July 2017 aka 8 months ago.

Note it appears they are removing Supergiant from the team.

Corvus Glaive is Thano's right hand man in the comics with the Black Order, leader of the team.

Do not read what I am about to write if you hate big reveals being ruined for a person notices hidden clues and they figured out the mystery box based off these clues. I am talking major spoilers in this 2nd spoiler block

So Ebony Maw is a person that can manipulate the human mind (think a mixture of a telepath and a diplomacifer bard). Well how is Thanos going to get the Time Stone from Dr. Strange when he has such awesome wizardry power of rewinding time. Well it looks like the answer is going to be Ebony Maw which has the power to influence the human mind and make you do things you would not do normally.

Aka Ebony Maw has the power to create a mind virus, and mind virus / telepaths are ultimate counters against time travelers for the mind virus remains even if you have time travel. Once infected you got problems.

Oh yeah in the comics Ebony Maw made Dr. Strange unleash a cosmic / lovecraftian horror as part of the goal of reassembling the infinity stones. Cosmic horror distracts human heroes while the villians do their thing.

So when you know some of the comic lore, and you see this in the Avengers Trailer well you kind of figured it out already what is probably going to happen.

https://fsmedia.imgix.net/e5/8f/da/95/7fea/4025/869e/6f87a804bdba/ebony-mawgif.gif

Clertar

2018-04-03, 09:40 AM

Speak about spoilers, it would seem we're in for a surprise and everybody behind the film is making a real effort to keep it spoiler-free:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DZ3SPodVMAApnbm.jpg

Clertar

2018-04-25, 01:40 AM

D-day is getting closer and closer, let's get ready to hide in a cave until we can see the film :smalltongue:

It's already starting to get good reviews. The hype is real!
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/avengers_infinity_war/

Ramza00

2018-04-25, 02:17 PM

Good article not directly about Infinity War (thus no spoilers) but it does have a clickbait title.

Superheroes Don’t Wear Ponytails, and Yes, It’s Sexist
https://www.racked.com/2018/4/25/17275020/avengers-infinity-war-hair-mantis-black-widow-gamora-scarlet-witch

Majin

2018-04-25, 02:57 PM

McNum

2018-04-25, 03:42 PM

Just came back from the theater.

Okay, some hastily written first impressions.

I really did like it. They handled the massive cast well, though if I had to pick main characters I'd pick Stark and Thor.

It was tightly packed, the action was neat and the amount of quipping was alright.

Couple of things did bother me though:

The death toll was so high, I feel like they're going to have to undo a lot of the stuff that happened. I hope they'll handle it well, I'm just afraid it'll negate the events of this movie somewhat. Guess we'll just have to wait a year to find out :smallsigh:
They can use smaller cast on the next movie though
I didn't really like how Quill basically screwed up the fight with Thanos. I prefer when one side wins due to their own competence, not due to someone violently grabbing the idiot ball
Doctor Strange went down a bit too easily. Then again, maybe he did have something planned...
Speaking of wizards, would have liked more of Loki
No Immigrant Song when Thor returned towards the end :smallannoyed:

Other notions... Thanos was abit different than I imagined (I don't really know much about how he's in the comics, so can't tell hiw different this incarnation is). I feel this motovation worked better than 'making Death love him' would have at least.

Also saw it today, so same disclaimer from me.

I think you're missing the obvious choice for who the main character is: Thanos. I really can't see anyone else really fit.

And yeah, Marvel went there. They actually went there. The Snap. Right out of the Infinity War/Gauntlet (forget which) comic book. I knew it was a possibility, but I didn't quite expect them to actually do it.

As for Star-Lord messing up, remember that Doctor Strange saw ONE possible outcome where Thanos loses in the end. And he is most definitely going for the longshot, even if it means letting Thanos win for a while.

And yeah... This movie does not have a happy ending. Or even a bittersweet one. Thanos wins and then the movie ends with half the universe dead. Marvel is playing hardball here. Also, I found it cute that instead of the usual "The Avengers will Return" at the end of the credits, it was "Thanos will return." Just like it was in the other solo movies. Because this movie might as well be called "Thanos: Infinity War".

FreddyNoNose

2018-04-26, 12:21 PM

The News reported that a theater in Los Angeles has a marvel movie marathon that starts with Iron Man and ends with Infinity War. They have been watching movies for 30 hours so far!

Rogar Demonblud

2018-04-26, 12:32 PM

Just reading about that makes my back hurt and legs go to sleep. And we have decent(ish) seats in my theater.

Scowling Dragon

2018-04-26, 12:45 PM

FreddyNoNose

2018-04-26, 01:16 PM

Androgeus

2018-04-26, 02:33 PM

I didn't really like how Quill basically screwed up the fight with Thanos. I prefer when one side wins due to their own competence, not due to someone violently grabbing the idiot ball

I hate how any character acting in character is labeled as "idoit ball".

I very much enjoyed the film, don't have much to complain about really. I mean I don't like Stark's latest armour, but that's not really a make or break thing.

The News reported that a theater in Los Angeles has a marvel movie marathon that starts with Iron Man and ends with Infinity War. They have been watching movies for 30 hours so far!

I mean I watched 18 movies in 7 days (which i realised was actually 19 movies in 8 days), but all in a row is just super ridiculous.

Majin

2018-04-26, 03:13 PM

I hate how any character acting in character is labeled as "idoit ball".

I very much enjoyed the film, don't have much to complain about really. I mean I don't like Stark's latest armour, but that's not really a make or break thing.

The "idiot ball" was mostly for comedic effect. I suppose the way the scene was handled just somehow rubbed me the wrong way, though it was not necessarily out of character for Quill to do what he did.

I did like the previous armors better as well, though the new armor had some cool visuals.

No idea how similar the movie is to the comic story line, though I imagine it's only very loosely based.

Chen

2018-04-26, 04:13 PM

I have not had a spark of interest in Marvel movies in years and I have found them nearly unwatchable from being immensly formuliac.

The idea of Adapting Infinity Gauntlet sounds like a TERRIBLE idea for me since thats not really a good proactive comic.

Honestly I don't think it can end worse than the stupid comic did.

Comic spoiler
Nebula just physically removes the Gauntlet from Thanos' hand because he's astrally projecting and somehow, despite being omnipotent and omniscient he doesn't notice. She then reverses everything and eventually Adam Warlock and the heroes take it from her. Also Thanos ends up as a farmer.

Scowling Dragon

2018-04-26, 04:22 PM

Honestly I don't think it can end worse than the stupid comic did.

Im just truly shocked how anybody cares about these at all. They are immensly replacable with the exact same structure that suffers dearly from the movie format.

Malimar

2018-04-26, 04:30 PM

I have not had a spark of interest in Marvel movies in years and I have found them nearly unwatchable from being immensly formuliac.

The idea of Adapting Infinity Gauntlet sounds like a TERRIBLE idea for me since thats not really a good proactive comic.

Im just truly shocked how anybody cares about these at all. They are immensly replacable with the exact same structure that suffers dearly from the movie format.
https://i.imgur.com/5Wh6Rfh.jpg

Scowling Dragon

2018-04-26, 04:41 PM

My likes of things are so insecure they can't handle criticism
This is the GITP I know and begrudignly tolerate. :smallannoyed:

JadedDM

2018-04-26, 04:59 PM

If you don't like the MCU, Scowling Dragon (and big surprise there--you hate something popular; color me shocked), that's fine. But acting like you're surprised that they are popular doesn't make you look cool. It makes it look like you have your head in the sand. These movies have been breaking box office records lately--Black Panther especially, and Infinity War is probably going to do even better.

Scowling Dragon

2018-04-26, 05:04 PM

But acting like you're surprised that they are popular doesn't make you look cool.

Its not caring what people think what makes me off the hook! :smallcool:
In all seriousness chalk it up to a fundemental difference to most people. So for me it is a genuine suprise on some fundemental level.

I do apreciate your apeal to majority. The mob always knows whats best. As we all know, Fast and the Furious 8 is the 13th best film of all time because it made a **** ton of money.

JadedDM

2018-04-26, 05:23 PM

This is your entire shtick. You think you're just so much smarter than everyone else. That liking something that is popular is clearly because we're all mindless sheep. It's sad, but mostly just annoying, that you feel the need to pop into every thread to crap on everyone for actually enjoying stuff. I'm just tired of it. I suspect most of us are.

Scowling Dragon

2018-04-26, 05:29 PM

This is your entire shtick. You think you're just so much smarter than everyone else.
Why? Because I have different taste in film?

Im sorry you extrapolated a superiority complex because I disliked something you like.

JadedDM

2018-04-26, 05:44 PM

Oh, please don't insult my intelligence, and the intelligence of everyone here, by pretending this is a single, isolated incident. As I said, this is your shtick. This is literally all you do in these forums: look your nose down on everyone else for liking things. Not just the Avengers, but everything.

Find a new shtick, please.

Scowling Dragon

2018-04-26, 05:53 PM

Not just the Avengers, but everything.

Oh whatever. Maybe people who have the GALL to dislike whatever you dislike don't ENJOY the stuff, and so you have to attribute malice to create a comforting worldview where anybody you disagree with MUST be a bad person.

Ramza00

2018-04-26, 06:53 PM

[LIST]
I didn't really like how Quill basically screwed up the fight with Thanos. I prefer when one side wins due to their own competence, not due to someone violently grabbing the idiot ball
[/SPOILER]

Let's talk about a specific character's action (see spoilers)

It was very in character of Quill.

1) Remember Quill is the same guy in Guardians of the Galaxy 2 who had a competition with Rocket over who is the better pilot and almost got everyone killed in a macho fight of who is bigger.

2) Everything about Quill is defined by loss and his inability to cope with loss. He fears intimacy because of his inability to cope with loss (see loser speech), yet he tries to become a "guardian" so there will be less loss for both him and for others.

3) He is a man with unresolved feelings, he did not open the cassette tape from his mom for over 20 years for he can't deal with unresolved feelings. He throws a temper tantrum with Gamora in Guardians 2 for she does not want to deal with someone who is so needy and it is not about avoiding the neediness it is about him avoiding his feelings. He says this to Gamora.

QUILL
You know, this isn’t Cheers after all. It’s whatever the show is where one person is willing to, you know, open themselves up to new possibilities, and the other person is just kind of a jerk who doesn’t trust anyone! It’s a show that doesn’t exist - it would never be made, it would be so horrible! It would get zero ratings!

GAMORA
I don’t know what Cheers is!

QUILL
I finally found my family, don’t you understand that!?

GAMORA
I thought you already had.

Note in the original script before Gamora says I don't know what Cheers is! She says "You’re having a conversation with yourself!" Because it is true Quill is having a conversation with himself. He is so afraid of loss that he will not open himself up to his feelings, he does not develop "bonds" for his fear of his feelings. Instead he just wants to date, dance, and feel busy in order to fill a void.

4) Quill is still suffering from unresolved feelings from the loss of his adoptive father Yondu.

So of course when another family member dies, Quill just spills over with his emotions and does not think things through. This is in character with Quill for Quill has not had a growth arc yet on this subject.

That said Guardians of the Galaxy has been dealing with this subject matter since the very beginning, for example watch this clips from Movies with Mikey about Guardians 1 (skip to timestamp 11:34 and then have 6 mins of pure feels where Mikey does a good job ... well just watch it.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjwzCrtK5G0

If you don't like the MCU, Scowling Dragon (and big surprise there--you hate something popular; color me shocked), that's fine. But acting like you're surprised that they are popular doesn't make you look cool. It makes it look like you have your head in the sand. These movies have been breaking box office records lately--Black Panther especially, and Infinity War is probably going to do even better.

Black Panther made more money in the US Market than Iron Man 1 (2008, $318 million), Thor 1 (2011, $181 million), and Captain American 1 (2011, $176 million) these 3 movies had a total US sales of $676 million. By contrast as of now Black Panther has a US sales of $683 million. Remember Iron Man 1 was only 10 years ago and it was consider a very good hit sales wise, extremely popular and effective in 2008, and Thor 1 and Captain American 1 may have made less money but they were still seen as box office successes.

I am agreeing with you JadedDM, but I am posting to just marvel (hehe a pun) and stand in aww at the financial success.

There is lots of things to complain about and critique about the Marvel Cinematic Universe but lets be honest, the most recent MCU movies (Guardians of the Galaxy 1 and 2, Thor 3 Ragnarok, Black Panther, Doctor Stranger are much better story telling experiences in story, visual, music, and themes that all humans can relate to than most of the other Marvel Cinematic Universe movies. In my opinion these most recent movies get it right for they deal with the subject of loss, of sacrifice, of change while still keeping a feeling of wonder and beauty in this world that can be quite cruel yet it at the same time beautiful. And flawed characters just highlight this all.)

Lord Vukodlak

2018-04-27, 01:39 AM

Damn that was intense, sadly I couldn't stay for the post credits scene. I weighted my options take the bus home or walk nearly two miles back home. I stand by my choice. One thing I clearly expected going into this was the damage would be so massive, so great the only way to resolve it would be for them to use the stones to undo the damage in part 2 next year.

Some of my favorite moments(excluding fight scenes ),

Learning that Groots language was an elective on Asgard

When little Gamora reached out and took Thano's finger, I fought aww its almost enough to make you forget murderous despot.

Red Skull nuff said.

Peter Dinklage as a dwarf,

Thor's arrival on earth.

I thought they did an excellent job dividing up the heroes into smaller groups so no one scene was to cluttered with heroes.

Was really amazed Stark survived, When he an Pepper talked about kids I figured it was headed straight forhttp://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SomeoneToRememberHimBy (SomeoneToRememberHimBy). Of course the this was only part one and I'm wagering whomever uses the stones to undo the damage won't survive the process. Dr. Strange gave up the stone to Stark would live so he must have foreseen the only future where they win because of Tony. And because the MCU began with Iron Man its only fitting that this phase ends with him.

And remember to preview posts before posting don't want to screw up the spoiler tags.

Anonymouswizard

2018-04-27, 02:17 AM

https://i.imgur.com/5Wh6Rfh.jpg

I'll admit I've been in the opposite situation, having been chewed out for not enjoying something (particularly Guardians of the Galaxy, as a fan of literary space opera I just found or boring). Apparently people think that because I like some popular things I must like all popular things, and that it's impossible to like only part of a cinematic universe. This firm is thankfully a place where it doesn't happen.

I'm still uncertain about seeing Infinity War. It's unlikely to have the Civil War problem of 'both sides are legitimate... nope lol Captain Shieldman is in the right', and if what I've heard about Thanks being the effective main character is true my worries about a lack of character development via so many characters might be moot, as Thanos and his supporting cast should get it.

tiornys

2018-04-27, 03:05 AM

Let's talk about a specific character's action (see spoilers)
Interesting as it is to talk about how in-character that was, I'd rather focus on the key out-of-character moment.
Namely, Dr. Strange surrendering the Time Stone without trying to use it (after searching the future) and in emphatic contradiction of his earlier promise to value the stone over anyone's life. Makes me curious about a few things, but most importantly, what would have gone wrong with attempts to use the Time Stone directly against Thanos? We'll obviously be finding out more about the overall plan, but I'm not sure if that detail will be covered.

Razade

2018-04-27, 04:02 AM

This is the GITP I know and begrudignly tolerate. :smallannoyed:

It's weird that you got that argument out of a picture posted with little to no context other than the comic itself. Like. Really weird. Do you have superpowers? Maybe we should make a Marvel Movie out of you. We'll call you Scarecrow because all your arguments are laid out on a foundation of straw people.

Its not caring what people think what makes me off the hook! :smallcool:
In all seriousness chalk it up to a fundemental difference to most people. So for me it is a genuine suprise on some fundemental level.

I do apreciate your apeal to majority. The mob always knows whats best. As we all know, Fast and the Furious 8 is the 13th best film of all time because it made a **** ton of money.

He never said they were good because they were popular. He just said they were popular. That's not an Appeal to Popularity. That's just stating a fact. They're popular. Period. End of discussion. If you want to engage in some fallacies I think, especially with the above, you should try your hand at strawmanning because you're insanely good at it. You're like a reverse psychic, instead of reading people's thoughts you put words in their mouth that weren't there. It's a shame Jaded engaged you on what you said instead of asking you to actually respond to what Malimar posted (and what they posted but doing it for one person seems hard enough for you).

You're allowed to dislike whatever you want and be vocal about it. Doubt that's what people are annoyed over. I think it's when they point out they don't care that you don't like it you immediately accuse them of being shallow, insecure people who can't handle other people's opinions. They can. Not caring about your opinion doesn't mean they can't handle it.

For what it's worth I'd be happy to hear your opinion on Infinity War. When you see it. I don't give two beans about how you feel about the Marvel films in general and I don't care what you think about Infinity War without having the chance to form an actual opinion about the thing. Because then there'll be a conversation worth having.

As to the movie...it was good but it sorta rings hollow when you know all the people who are "dead" are going to probably generally all come back. Not all of them probably. I admit there was a cynical thought in my head in the opening where I thought "and here you hear the sound of contracts running out and not being renewed" as people were killed off. It's also hard to feel impact when you know some of the people who died are going to have more movies because you know they signed a contract specifying a number of film appearances and that number hasn't come due.

Other than that though the movie was great. Thanos was good though I don't really like how he looked. The mention of purple ballsacks, the Grimace of McDonalds and some other good potshots all rang a little too true. Gamora stole the show however. Just a great act all around.

Chen

2018-04-27, 05:42 AM

Im just truly shocked how anybody cares about these at all. They are immensly replacable with the exact same structure that suffers dearly from the movie format.

Firstly I dont see how this is a response to anything I said. Secondly if you’re “truly shocked” it seems to point to a huge lack of understanding of humanity in general. Even if you personnally dislike something how is it surprising that the new film in a franchise that has made billions of dollars is going to be enjoyed by many people? What would be shocking would be if this movie flopped and made no money. Expecting people as a whole to suddenly start acting conpletely differently from how they behaved in the past (and not even distant past considering Black Panther’s results recently) is just naive.

MikelaC1

2018-04-27, 08:12 AM

UrielAwakened

2018-04-27, 09:12 AM

That was the best movie I've ever seen in theaters.

No movie has ever done what Infinity War just did.

Mato

2018-04-27, 09:21 AM

No movie has ever done what Infinity War just did.In before
The empire strikes back, matrix reloaded, deathly hallows part 1, or any other film series where it's sequel was recorded at the same time. Also most comics including the source material the film pulled it's ideas from and season finales.

UrielAwakened

2018-04-27, 10:49 AM

In before
The empire strikes back, matrix reloaded, deathly hallows part 1, or any other film series where it's sequel was recorded at the same time. Also most comics including the source material the film pulled it's ideas from and season finales.

Those didn't spend ten years having you fall in love with the characters, and didn't focus nearly as much on the main antagonist (who is honestly the protagonist).

I say again, what we just witnessed has never been done in film history.

Mato

2018-04-27, 11:25 AM

Those didn't spend ten years having you fall in love with the characters,
So Infinity War is unique because it's the only franchise you can think of that is ten years old? :smallsigh:
I kind of already mentioned a franchise with a massive plethora of media that waited over thirty eight years before working on killing off all of it's protagonists and their supporting staff. And unlike a comic book, almost all of them will stay dead instead of coming back to life at the end of the next film.

You know you can love the film without inappropriately awarding it special titles right? Plus, I'm not insulting you and saying you watching advertisement cameo Fury die off for the second time that was fully undercut by expecting his immediate resurrection as not being impactful. Rather you could experience your feelings again and again either by watching new media or by realizing context you missed before in media you've seen before. Like Ripley killing her self after thirteen years to keep the Xenomorph out of the company's hands, it was a very epic moment that was also ruined by it's squeals.

Dragonus45

2018-04-27, 12:36 PM

I always find myself giggling that there are still people who try to deny just how unique and groundbreaking the MCU has been.

UrielAwakened

2018-04-27, 02:12 PM

Yeah some people just don't want to see how this is different. Which is fine. They miss out on enjoying it.

Mato

2018-04-27, 02:53 PM

I always find myself giggling that there are still people who try to deny just how unique and groundbreaking the MCU has been.I always find myself a little sad that there are people who throw around the "groundbreaking" buzzword at every single thing that has come out. Like fictionalized history (https://chinohillshowler.org/4875/arts/reviews/the-greatest-showman-a-groundbreaking-musical/) or dramatizing WWII (http://www.firstshowing.net/2017/review-nolans-dunkirk-is-as-riveting-as-it-is-groundbreaking/), or rereleasing the 1989 Batman by today's standards (http://chimes.biola.edu/story/2018/mar/07/groundbreaking-superhero-movies-black-panther/), and a musical edition of a your year old movie (http://www.newreleasetoday.com/news_detail.php?newsid=1451). :smallsmile:

Again, doesn't make it terrible. The movie was great, but I'm not going to call part one of a third movie that it's self is simply an adoption of a previous story unique.

Ramza00

2018-04-27, 03:37 PM

I always find myself a little sad that there are people who throw around the "groundbreaking" buzzword at every single thing that has come out. Like fictionalized history (https://chinohillshowler.org/4875/arts/reviews/the-greatest-showman-a-groundbreaking-musical/) or dramatizing WWII (http://www.firstshowing.net/2017/review-nolans-dunkirk-is-as-riveting-as-it-is-groundbreaking/), or rereleasing the 1989 Batman by today's standards (http://chimes.biola.edu/story/2018/mar/07/groundbreaking-superhero-movies-black-panther/), and a musical edition of a your year old movie (http://www.newreleasetoday.com/news_detail.php?newsid=1451). :smallsmile:

So most people are not really thinking that hard and deep philosophy when they speak but let me make the argument that even if they do not understand its deep principles they are seeing the deep features when it occurs. Most people use the word "groundbreaking" to signify this is an inflection point, a tipping point that will trigger something new aka a 2nd derivative thingy in calculus. Aka a 3rd derivative, which is a also known as in physics such as jerk, lurch, jolt in physics is something that causes the inflection point to change, aka the 3rd derivative triggers a change in the 2nd derivative.

Remember

Position over Time is location
Speed / Velocity is 1st derivative of position over time
Acceleration is 2nd derivative of position over time
Jerk / Lurch / Jolt is 3rd derivative of position over time.

Now I been using all these fancy math and physic terms for calculus is mathematics which was designed to study change and change over time for calculus is literally the mathematical study of continuous change. So in other words calculus developed all this fancy language, all these fancy mathematical terms in order to explain change and to try to predict change and to explain change that already happened.

And most people do have basic calculus principles in their ability to predict change is going to happen. They may not have studied calculus in college or late high school, and even if they did many people forget the fancy math language (I completely forgot most of the mathematical notation over 10 years ago even though I got to Calc 2). But that is the beauty of the human brain many of the mathematical principles we have an intuitive sense of with biology, we understand in our heads location (position in reference to time), we understand speed, we understand acceleration, and we also understand when sudden things happen that are unexpected that cause changes in acceleration, speed, and position things like speed bumps and these speed bumps may change the direction of what is new and where the general trend, the fad, is going.

So yes this movie is groundbreaking even if you want to argue it is not really a jerk, but instead barely a change in the general direction, speed, or acceleration of superhero movies. It is going to be a jerk for most likely it is going to break a billion dollars worldwide for sales.

Note it is not just math and physics that have a language to describe the process of continuous change. Many philosophies and theologies do so as well. For example "Process Philosophy" is a comparative philosophy / religious term to say your metaphysics is based around continuous change and there is no permanent essences for all things die and when I say all things die I mean in reality all things change and become another (equivalent exchange and all that jazz) and that there is no permanent forever essence that guides / returns things to the mean.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_philosophy

Well these thoughts are so common in human nature irrespective of culture, and even if these cultures did not talk to each other that this term "Process Philosophy" was created to signify these worldviews and to help categorize worldviews from different cultures. That is because other philosophies exist cross culture and argue different world views, for example Substance Theory argue there is a permanent essence that is distinct from its properties, something that makes X into X. For example Substance Theory is very much rebuked by David Hume (Scottish Skepticist of the mid 1700s, Empiricist, Philosopher, Historian, Economist, and a dozen other things I am skipping over), Hume argues that much of the things we argue has permanent essence we just trust it has a permanent essence, that is because humans are so reliant on senses and our emotions/ our sentiments/ our passions that we create order in our head to try to organize the senses and our emotions. Often these orders we create are not really descriptive of actual reality but instead self reinforcing of what we think reality is and what it should be. David Hume then helped people refine the process of thought we later used in much of philosophy and also the scientific method for humans can't separate our senses and passions from ourselves but if we inject a little doubt that constantly challenges our assumptions to try to be better we are actually better at organizing our senses and passions even if we can't have perfect certainty.

-----

So Mato I kind of rambled in my defense of the term of "groundbreaking" but lets be honest this moment is groundbreaking. We just do not know the direction, the intensity, and the significance of how groundbreaking this moment is.

That is because there are also lots of other groundbreaking moments all the time...and most of these other moments we do not notice when they occur, prior to them occurring, and often even after the effect. It is just too much data for the human brain to handle. Yet the human brain is very good at noticing that X is different and it seems significant even if we can't plot the direction, intensity, and the final resting point of the significance.

Humans beings are so good at seeing and understanding some aspects of change and so bad at other aspects of change. :smallcool: We are after-all only human :smallbiggrin:

Anonymouswizard

2018-04-27, 06:00 PM

I always find myself giggling that there are still people who try to deny just how unique and groundbreaking the MCU has been.

The thing is, the 'new and unique thing' about the MCU isn't new or unique as soon as you go outside of movies, and honestly the MCU is starting to suffer from the main problem of this NAUT that other mediums have sometimes experienced.

Is it the first real successful attempt to bring this NAUT to cinema? Maybe, I honestly can't be asked to check. It's certainly the first wildly popular attempt with staying power. But I'm not kidding when I say that almost every other medium has done the 'interconnected web of stories spanning years sharing characters' thing. It's like, literally the first thing I think of when somebody says 'American comics'.

I honestly don't think the idea that I go to a cinema to see it instead of a bookstore to buy the paperback as making any big difference.

tiornys

2018-04-27, 08:38 PM

The thing is, the 'new and unique thing' about the MCU isn't new or unique as soon as you go outside of movies, and honestly the MCU is starting to suffer from the main problem of this NAUT that other mediums have sometimes experienced.

Is it the first real successful attempt to bring this NAUT to cinema? Maybe, I honestly can't be asked to check. It's certainly the first wildly popular attempt with staying power. But I'm not kidding when I say that almost every other medium has done the 'interconnected web of stories spanning years sharing characters' thing. It's like, literally the first thing I think of when somebody says 'American comics'.

I honestly don't think the idea that I go to a cinema to see it instead of a bookstore to buy the paperback as making any big difference.
FFVII is widely considered groundbreaking, not because it did anything that hadn't already been seen within its genre but because it did those things while dramatically expanding the audience of that genre.

The MCU has done the same thing for comics while simultaneously translating them into a different form of media. And Infinity Wars just proved that they could pull off the massive crossover events within the movie format.

edit: to elaborate on this, yes it's true that "all" Marvel has done here is successfully translate some long-standing comic book stuff to the big screen. The key word here is "successful" because there have been a lot of failed attempts over the years.

Razade

2018-04-27, 08:57 PM

The thing is, the 'new and unique thing' about the MCU isn't new or unique as soon as you go outside of movies, and honestly the MCU is starting to suffer from the main problem of this NAUT that other mediums have sometimes experienced.

Is it the first real successful attempt to bring this NAUT to cinema? Maybe, I honestly can't be asked to check. It's certainly the first wildly popular attempt with staying power. But I'm not kidding when I say that almost every other medium has done the 'interconnected web of stories spanning years sharing characters' thing. It's like, literally the first thing I think of when somebody says 'American comics'.

I honestly don't think the idea that I go to a cinema to see it instead of a bookstore to buy the paperback as making any big difference.

Good for you. This isn't about you but the wider public. Infinity War is set to break records for opening night sales. It already broke sales records for pre-sales. This is a big thing in movies and it's a big thing for the general populous who don't read comic books.

Ramza00

2018-04-27, 10:33 PM

A metaphor,

Point: I complain about music for there is nothing new about music it is not like the music of my fathers or grandfathers where everything seemed new.

Counterpoint: Well that is not that true. Music is mostly the same as its older versions, it is just the combination of multiple genres and new technology medium that makes music more common in our daily lives.

For example this video (you just need to watch the first five minutes) which traces the history of the "descending bass" and how a collection of types of notes often triggers the feelings of sadness and melancholy and its been that way for hundrend of years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=933tIGe0n24

Even in songs like Hit the Road Jack (1960 Percy Mayfield, 1961 Ray Charles) which we think are upbeat it also includes the descending bass to create a more complicated emotion where we feel both joy and sadness at the same time and it is the complexity of the multiple parts, being rammed together in a new and unique combination that triggers THE FEELS.

----

That is the power of the aural medium with sound, where we can feel multiple emotions at the same time, and when you combine it with visual mediums, and also story telling mediums (not just one vision but multiple visions told together as a story) we are able to trigger complexities that are greater than the sum of its parts.

(Starting now I will set up a strawman that I wish someone will punch back with)

So nothing is new under the sun with Avengers Infinity War, and that's the point. Something can be new and groundbreaking even if its not really new.

Rhetorical question for anyone to answer: Would you be happier if we use fancier words such as nouveau or neo to describe Infinity War? Perhaps we should use the word renaissance, revival, or resurgence? What fancy word do we have to use again if we can't use the word new?

Another Rhetorical Question: People who are complaining nothing is new in infinity war? What is the definition of infinity again?

Anonymouswizard

2018-04-28, 01:10 AM

Good for you. This isn't about you but the wider public. Infinity War is set to break records for opening night sales. It already broke sales records for pre-sales. This is a big thing in movies and it's a big thing for the general populous who don't read comic books.

The thing is, this rally has nothing to do with the MCU being consistently high quality (even the films I dislike I can happily admit are competently written and well executed) and being what's 'in' right now.

But my point was that I've seen thus formula of interlocking stories in books. I've seen it in TV shows (although it's rare and almost never gets this complex). I've seen it in music. If I tried hard enough I could probably find examples in theatre.

Why does the MCU and by extension Infinity War have to be new and groundbreaking? Why can't it just be really good, or great fun? What's wrong with just being good? Why must we claim that everything is groundbreaking when it's not?

BeerMug Paladin

2018-04-28, 02:37 AM

So Mato I kind of rambled in my defense of the term of "groundbreaking" but lets be honest this moment is groundbreaking. We just do not know the direction, the intensity, and the significance of how groundbreaking this moment is.

I don't watch these movies, but I do tend to watch these threads for puzzling moments of rambling like this. Highly entertaining, if nothing else. Doesn't the quoted part contradict itself?

Anyway, it's great that most people seem to enjoy the movie. It'll be a sad day for nerditude if and when the bubble bursts.

GloatingSwine

2018-04-28, 03:29 AM

FFVII is widely considered groundbreaking, not because it did anything that hadn't already been seen within its genre but because it did those things while dramatically expanding the audience of that genre.

FFVII is widely considered groundbreaking because it leveraged the CD format to dramatically alter the way the narrative of its genre was presented.

It was the move away from sprite and tile, and the wider range of interactions with the background including the use of animated background and blending polygon characters over video backgrounds, that was groundbreaking.

Is it the first real successful attempt to bring this NAUT to cinema? Maybe, I honestly can't be asked to check. It's certainly the first wildly popular attempt with staying power. But I'm not kidding when I say that almost every other medium has done the 'interconnected web of stories spanning years sharing characters' thing. It's like, literally the first thing I think of when somebody says 'American comics'.

It is the first successful attempt to bring this sort of thing to cinema. And frankly I don't think it could have been done in cinema before now. The other media that have done this sort of thing are much more likely to be serialised, which means regular publication and visibility and much less of a "miss it and you've missed it until it shows up somewhere else much later" nature than cinema. Miss an episode of a TV show and there'll be another one next week, books stay in circulation for ages, etc.

The range and immediacy of stored information via the internet is what has made this possible in cinema now. Because it doesn't matter if you missed even most of the individual movies you can get caught up on the wiki.

Razade

2018-04-28, 05:24 AM

Why does the MCU and by extension Infinity War have to be new and groundbreaking? Why can't it just be really good, or great fun? What's wrong with just being good? Why must we claim that everything is groundbreaking when it's not?

Because it's never been done in movies to this scale and to this degree of success. It's groundbreaking because the other mediums allow for this all the time. No one said it was unique. No one said it was the first ime this has happened ever, period, full stop. They've said it's the biggest, most complex series of films and actors and etc etc. For. Film.

That's why I said I didn't give a hoot where else you'd seen it. Because who cares where else. No one is talking about where else. They're talking specifically of film. So who cares if books have had mega cross over? Who cares if comics have? Who cares? Those are all pointless in this discussion. It's like someone saying they made the biggest, most complex cake and then you talking about eggs Benedict and how that's difficult to make so why should we care about your damn confectionary?

Aedilred

2018-04-28, 11:21 AM

FFVII is widely considered groundbreaking because it leveraged the CD format to dramatically alter the way the narrative of its genre was presented.

It was the move away from sprite and tile, and the wider range of interactions with the background including the use of animated background and blending polygon characters over video backgrounds, that was groundbreaking.
I feel like Myst beat it to the punch by a few years, but then to be fair I haven't played FFVI.

It's easy to suppose that the Marvel movie juggernaut is running out of steam and there have been huge numbers of articles written prophesying that Infinity War must fail because it's doomed by the scale of its ambition. But all those articles were written before release and so have no real value. As to the idea that the MCU is dying, there's no evidence for that. Black Panther smashed records. Infinity War is projected to beat Black Panther's opening weekend.

I don't think it can be sustained forever and I have started to find the films a little formulaic, but there's a lot of life left in them. Much may depend on the ability of the next generation of actors and characters to carry it forward. RDJ, Chris Evans, Chris Hemsworth and Mark Ruffalo can't last forever. When they call it a day, one way or another, will people still be drawn to watch the movies? The success of Black Panther, Homecoming and the unfailing affability of Paul Rudd say yes, but there's still time.

Anyway, on the film itself.

It did feel a little cluttered. It did a good job of incorporating its heroes without feeling merely like a parade of cameos but, like Thor: Ragnarok, it had to cram a lot into its running time and as a result a couple of things did seem a little rushed.

In particular, and for just about the first time in the MCU, the film at times sacrificed character relationship for plot advancement. The Stark-Banner reunion deserved more. Ditto, perhaps, the renegades' return to Avengers HQ.

Incapacitating Vision so early was clearly to help with the plot acceleration. As (more or less) the most powerful of the terrestrial Avengers, we needed to settle early on why he wasn't contributing more to the defensive effort. But this move was also a bit obvious, and even though his death was anticipated, it would have been nice to see him in full flight before the end.

And similarly there was something repetitive in how Thanos acquired some of the stones. On three separate occasions a good guy who had control of a stone beyond Thanos's reach was induced to hand it over to him by watching an ally suffer (Loki, Gamora, Strange). In Loki's and Strange's cases, clearly they had a plan. But even so, Loki's seen worse. He's done worse. His plan was half-baked and unworthy of him. And Strange doesn't even really like Stark, from what the film had shown us.

With a bit more time, and a bit more dwelling on each of these occasions, or a little more opportunity to contemplate, this could have worked better. But the film's already two and a half hours and made the justifiable decision not to do so. In the trade-off between a much longer film (or multiple films) versus a shallower one, they opted for the latter and, after The Hobbit I can't blame them for it. But it does make me wonder about the film's longevity on rewatch.

The ending, however harrowing, did rather suggest that the gauntlet-induced deaths will be undone, not least because we already know some of those characters are to feature in further Marvel movies, so it didn't have quite the impact it might have done. Maybe another "real" death would have really set the tone. Or maybe the three/four (if you count Heimdall) is enough.

One frivolous question that occurred to me even at the time and has not gone away: Why did Heimdall only use the Bifrost to evacuate Hulk and not anyone else (Thor?) I suppose we could surmise that some of the other Asgardians got away via Bifrost before Thanos took the ship? Thor said Thanos killed "half of them" but when the Guardians arrived it seemed like they were all dead.

Bartmanhomer

2018-04-28, 11:45 AM

I saw the movie this morning and all I can say is that the movie was good but the ending was horrible. Enough said. :mad:

GloatingSwine

2018-04-28, 12:27 PM

And similarly there was something repetitive in how Thanos acquired some of the stones. On three separate occasions a good guy who had control of a stone beyond Thanos's reach was induced to hand it over to him by watching an ally suffer (Loki, Gamora, Strange). In Loki's and Strange's cases, clearly they had a plan. But even so, Loki's seen worse. He's done worse. His plan was half-baked and unworthy of him. And Strange doesn't even really like Stark, from what the film had shown us.

The film regularly shows people not making the same sacrifice that Thanos does make to get the Soul stone. I am pretty sure that will be significant in part 2, especially as Gamora appears to be in the Soul World instead of actual dead.

Rakaydos

2018-04-28, 01:18 PM

So about the stinger...
Before Nick fury dissolves, he sends a super-tech text message/pager call, and some symbol appears on the screen when it is sent. Is that Captain Marvel?

Mato

2018-04-28, 01:32 PM

Good for you. This isn't about you but the wider public. Infinity War is set to break records for opening night sales.So did Batman v Superman. And to belittle it even further, as the population grows sending more people to an ever increasing ticket price the trend is just going to keep going irregardless of film quality.

Anyway, on the film itself.
And similarly there was something repetitive in how Thanos acquired some of the stones. On three separate occasions a good guy who had control of a stone beyond Thanos's reach was induced to hand it over to him by watching an ally suffer (Loki, Gamora, Strange). In Loki's and Strange's cases, clearly they had a plan. But even so, Loki's seen worse. He's done worse. His plan was half-baked and unworthy of him. And Strange doesn't even really like Stark, from what the film had shown us.

One frivolous question that occurred to me even at the time and has not gone away: Why did Heimdall only use the Bifrost to evacuate Hulk and not anyone else (Thor?) I suppose we could surmise that some of the other Asgardians got away via Bifrost before Thanos took the ship? Thor said Thanos killed "half of them" but when the Guardians arrived it seemed like they were all dead.I feel like those two points need to be repeated.
You are spot on with how Thanos acquiring the stones was pretty repetitive, several characters played out-of-role of sorts and there are several plot holes in the film that you can pick up on the first viewing. And you know the second time you watch the film things in that area only get worse.

Bartmanhomer

2018-04-28, 01:38 PM

So about the stinger...
Before Nick fury dissolves, he sends a super-tech text message/pager call, and some symbol appears on the screen when it is sent. Is that Captain Marvel?

That what I want to know that myself. I didn't recognize the symbol.

Aedilred

2018-04-28, 01:54 PM

So about the stinger...
Before Nick fury dissolves, he sends a super-tech text message/pager call, and some symbol appears on the screen when it is sent. Is that Captain Marvel?

Yes.

Or, rather, it's the symbol apparently used by Captain Marvel, and since we know that film is coming and she's the sort of person Fury would call under the circumstances, I can't imagine who else it would be.

Of course this presupposes that she wasn't one of those disintegrated by Thanos. Which would be an amusing anticlimax.

Jeivar

2018-04-28, 02:11 PM

Overall, I absolutely loved this movie. Fantastic action, good performances, good use of each character...

... but I tend to roll my eyes at the standard Heroic Choice: Ie, a hero letting a villain gain the means to end a vast number of lives to save just one. The math of that just doesn't add up. You can't hand a nuke over to a psychopath and just hope you'll somehow survive long enough to stop him. Yet the heroes make this choice multiple times here.

Also, I find I just generally don't like Star Lord. He's an absolute man-child. Peter Parker is an an actual teenager, yet shows way more responsibility than he does.

As for Doctor Strange... I'd say that one victory he foresaw definitely included letting Thanos have a win for now. As for his plan, I want to theorise:

What was the result of Thanos getting the Time Stone? He got the final stone, gained ultimate power, and wiped out half of all life. This may be a stretch here, but I'm going to guess that Death, as in the entity Death, exists in the cinematic universe. And Thanos' act of unprecedented cosmic genocide has either strengthened her/it, or weakened the barrier to her/it in some way. So Strange, being the Sorcerer Supreme, means to either appeal to Death or confront it somehow.

Thoughts?

Aedilred

2018-04-28, 02:31 PM

Overall, I absolutely loved this movie. Fantastic action, good performances, good use of each character...

Also, I find I just generally don't like Star Lord. He's an absolute man-child. Peter Parker is an an actual teenager, yet shows way more responsibility than he does.

Well, with great power comes great responsibility, and he has no power...

I intended that as a joke but I realise it's true. At this point he really is just a bog-standard human with some (by Earth standards) fancy gear. He doesn't have an Infinity Stone. He's no longer a Celestial. He hasn't been augmented in any way with cybernetics or hormones. He doesn't have the genius-level intellect of Tony Stark or the exhaustive training of Black Widow. Even Hawkeye probably has more natural ability. He doesn't really have any remaining allies like Yondu or the Nova Corps to call on*. He can't even control his own crew. Rocket and Groot wander off at the earliest opportunity.

He may well be the weakest member of the "team" apart from - possibly - Falcon and Okoye, and even that's pretty debatable.

So most likely he feels rather insecure when he's confronted with new people who are actually superhuman. With his names and his accomplishments and despite his protest to Ego that there's nothing wrong with being like everyone else, he thought of himself as a player, and now he's starting to realise he's not playing in anything like the division he thought he was.

But still, yes. I started to like him in Guardians 2, but here he regressed rather. While I can forgive his not shooting Gamora as she asked (or, rather, delaying doing so until Thanos could anticpate it and stop him) and, for that matter, splitting up the team to suicidally attack Thanos on Knowhere in the first place rather than going to gear up with Thor, and thus indirectly giving Thanos access to the Soul Stone, his actions on Titan, single-handedly ruining the best chance they would have to stop him for no good reason at all was aggravating. I mean, what was punching him in the face even supposed to accomplish? He could at least have shot him.

*Which reminds me: where's Kraglin?

GloatingSwine

2018-04-28, 02:38 PM

Mato

2018-04-28, 02:50 PM

As for his plan, I want to theorise:
Adam Warlock (GotA2 post-credits) wakes up and him and Carol Danvers flirt for a bit while Tony gets jealous that he isn't the center character. Everything gets better the end.

Then homecoming II jokes about Sony botching Venom and in guardians 3 Peter is stranded and alone and sad that his clone-brother isn't with him, so he assembles a crew and saves a planet with the power of interpretive dance which is the most ground breaking thing ever seen in film. Fury shows up in both film's post credits trying to sell the idea of the secret wars / annihilation as the X-Men finally join the MCU. I think phase five was the best part through, Thor really taught Superman how to be a great hero and the DCU has been better ever since then.

thorgrim29

2018-04-28, 04:46 PM

I liked it... as far as Phase 3 Marvel movies go I would rank it somewhere near Black Panther (which I liked but takes itself way too seriously for me to get over how much of it doesn't make sense) and Guardians 2, above Civil War (somehow messier than this one even with about half the cast) and Dr Strange (meh...), and a bit below Thor 3 (which pushed just about all of my buttons). I have yet to see Spiderman Homecoming but I hear good things.

To everyone pissed at Strange... It's pretty obvious that giving the stone to Thanos was somehow part of the 1 shot in several millions they have of winning. I assume just using his future sight to tell Peter about Gamora ahead of time is against the rules of causality (or drama) or something. The big question is how much of the deaths will be fixed? It's pretty obvious the Guardians and Black Panther aren't permadead, so most if not all of the people killed at the end will be coming back somehow. Loki, Vision, and Gamora though... I also doubt they will actually have killed off all of the Asgardians except Thor and the suspiciously absent Valkyrie, but Heimdal is probably gone, I think Idris Elba has better things to do than wave a sword around wearing colored contacts and a wig since he's pretty much the highest-profile actor in a bit role other than Gwyneth Paltrow, but if all she has to do is take half a day off from selling magic crystals to film a scene every few years I don't see why that wouldn't continue.

I liked what they did with Banner, Hulk is scared to come out (presumably) because Thanos took enough boxing lessons to thoroughly kick his ass so now Bruce get to be an actual Avenger for once. The technobabble with Shuri was a bit out of control but it was also thankfully short.

I don't have a lot of theories about the next movie yet except that I think baby Gamora at the end might be Death and I wouldn't be surprised if Tony and maybe Cap died.

Zevox

2018-04-28, 05:03 PM

Just saw it. Well, that was pretty much the purest distillation of a giant comic book crossover event into movie form we're ever going to see, wasn't it? With all the positives and negatives that tends to entail.

I can't help but wonder how many people went into it not knowing this was a 2-parter, and were very surprised by the ending. Yeah, I know they announced it literally years ago, but plenty of the general public probably doesn't follow news about these movies that far in advance, or would have forgotten by now even if they did.

Overall, I'd say I was pretty happy with it. Pacing felt good, really liked the action, a lot of the cast got some cool moments and very few felt like they got nothing, which is impressive considering the ridiculous number of characters involved. I will say, I'm a little disappointed by who they did and didn't have vanish at the end there. Basically all of the B-listers and below are gone, but all of the biggest names - Steve, Tony, Thor, Bruce - are still around to be the center of things. Would have been more fun to see some of the traditionally-lesser characters have to step up in part 2, and I think all the "deaths" would have more impact if at least one of those big four had been among them, preferably Steve or Tony.

I will also say, there's something vaguely unsatisfying about Doctor Strange's part in this. I mean, at first it bothered me that he actually handed over the Time Stone despite his earlier warnings to Tony that he'd choose protecting it over protecting his or Peter's lives without hesitation, but after a moment to think about it it occurred to me that they're probably going for "he knows the one future in which they beat Thanos involves him getting all of the stones." Nonetheless, it feels less than satisfying that he didn't even try to make Thanos work for it, and especially that he never actually used the Time Stone against him. That's kind of the one major disappointment for me: the heroes had two of the Infinity Stones, one of which was in the hands of the most powerful magic-user on earth, and they never even tried to use them. Hell, Strange used the Time Stone to deal with Dormammu, so we know he's willing to use it when he has to, no excuses there.

Otherwise though, yeah, fun movie, and I look forward to part 2. And, after that post-credits teaser, Captain Marvel, since apparently she's set to be involved in part 2.

(Speaking of, I wonder whether the next few Marvel movies will technically take place after Thanos gets the full six stones but before his inevitable defeat? Or are they chronologically going to be before this film?)
Also worth saying on a minor note, I'm glad I played Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite before this came out. Gave me a much better ability to follow what each of the Stones was and could do (as well as their color-coding so I could follow which Thanos was using), and I wouldn't have recognized that symbol from the post-credits scene without it.

Seppl

2018-04-28, 05:20 PM

What was the result of Thanos getting the Time Stone? He got the final stone, gained ultimate power, and wiped out half of all life. This may be a stretch here, but I'm going to guess that Death, as in the entity Death, exists in the cinematic universe. And Thanos' act of unprecedented cosmic genocide has either strengthened her/it, or weakened the barrier to her/it in some way. So Strange, being the Sorcerer Supreme, means to either appeal to Death or confront it somehow.

Thoughts?
A previously unheard of entity that is just more powerful than the villain and resolves the plot? That is literally Deus ex Machina. I doubt they would go for that. Instead, the resolution is most likely based on the as of yet unresolved plot threads from the first movie. Which are not many: Dr Strange's vision? Could be anything, but likely involved Tony Stark in a critical position. Captain Marvel? Again, could be anything, but she is not gonna defeat an omnipotent being by punching him very hard. Thanos' regrets? That is the main unresolved thread. The other two I mentioned will most likely play into that. How to deal with an omnipotent being? Make them want to give up said power! Classic story. Captain Marvel and Tony Stark will probably be involved in some mission, searching people and/or things from Thanos' past that he has regrets about. Tony is already on Thanos' homeworld. Captain Marvel we will learn more about in her upcoming movie.

There is also the GotG2 post credits reveal of Adam Warlock which has not yet played any roll in the MCU, yet. The producers said that he will first show up in GotG3. But they also said that Captain Marvel would not appear in Avengers 4, which was obviously a ruse.

I can't help but wonder how many people went into it not knowing this was a 2-parter, and were very surprised by the ending. Yeah, I know they announced it literally years ago, but plenty of the general public probably doesn't follow news about these movies that far in advance, or would have forgotten by now even if they did.

I totally fell for that because I intentionally avoided any spoilers regarding this movie. I just knew that the next two upcoming movies would be about Ant Man and Captain Marvel. Therefore, on the one hand, I predicted the actual ending of Infinity Wars as the ending that would make the most sense from a dramatic point of view. On the other hand, that ending would not make sense when part of a movie franchise. After all, there is no chance that Ant Man could pick up after that. It was only after leaving the cinema that I found out that Ant Man 2 and Captain Marvel will be set in the past. Had I known this fact before watching Infinity Wars I would have totally called the ending (It is kind of obvious when you know it is part one of two).

Ramza00

2018-04-28, 06:52 PM

So my theory about Avengers 4.

God I hate Deus Ex Machima events like the Infinity Gauntlet for once you get too deep into the magic territory and you can rewrite all of reality it just lowers the stakes for two reasons. 1) It can be undone on a whim. 2) It does not feel real, it does not feel physical even if there are stakes, loss, and things are forever change. It removes the human element from the Drama.

So understand just by touching Deus Ex Machima storytelling you kind of already lost the story you want to tell. Effectively we are not dealing with real world logic but instead Dream World Logic.

http://www.truefreethinker.com/sites/default/files/images/DOCTOR%20STRANGE%20monarch%20butterfly.jpg

But there are different levels of Deus Ex Machima storytelling that work better or worse on a human drama level than other forms of Deus Ex Machima storytelling.

So from a bards / storytelling perspective where you want to tell a good story lets look at different ways this story can unfold.

1) You can rewind time with time stone or similar Deus Ex Machima effect. Narratively this rarely works for nothing really works in reality (aka a human level) to rewind time, it is all wish fulfillment and feels false to most humans.
2) You can create an alterate reality with the reality storm or similar Deus Ex Machima effect. Once again this often does not work for nothing in reality (aka a human level) to rewind time, once again it is wish fufillment and most humans can not buy it.
3) There is one deus ex machima that happens with all humans and it happens every night and it is dreamworld logic. Aka we are talking stuff involving the mind-stone, soul-stone, or both. In real world Dreams are weird for specific brain areas are underactive and almost turn off in a dream and other brain areas are normal or even more activity than normal. The rules of reality are flexibile. That is why I invoked above in picture of the Butterfly Dream Metaphor of Zhuangzi (one of the founders of Taoism, the butterfly dream deals with how things change and can transform into new things so it ask the question what is real in reality vs real in the mind by invoking the idea of dreams.)

So we know the soul stone in Avengers 3: Infinity War is different than the other stones, it has a form of wisdom and some form of thing that is kind like sentiencene or a will of its own.

I propose that the Red Skull is stuck in the Soul Stone (played by Ross Marquand not Hugo Weaving aka Mr. Smith and Elrond) and that Red Skull is stuck in the Soul Stone in a conscious state.
I also propose that Gamora is stuck in the Soul Stone in a conscious state.
I also propose half of the universe is stored in save memory buffer in the soul stone. Thus the original avengers are trapped in the material / coproreal / what we normally call the real realm but people like Bucky, Groot, Star Lord, Mantis, Black Panther, my Spider Man, etc are all fine but not living trapped in a state between life and death in the soul stone. In the end of Avengers 4 I propose these people will all be return to life.
But the people who were not turned to sands of time dust such as Captain America, Thor, Iron Man, etc they have the possibility of dying in Avengers 4 and staying dead.
I have no clue if people who died in this movie but not by the snap such as Loki, Heimdall, Vision, etc will be returning or not. I guess these people are most likely going to stay dead but this is merely a guess.
I think now that Thanos has ascended to Godhood he is trapped both in the material / corporeal / physical realm and in the Soul Stone. Aka there is him with his younger daughter Gamora in the Soul Stone (remember the scene with Thanos without his gauntlet near the very end.) while Thanos in the material realm still has the 6 infinity stones but also a damaged gauntlet.
How the next story plays out I do not know, I have guesses depending on how I would write it but other people can write it different ways, that said I am pretty sure everyone is in save buffer memory and we are not going to use the time stone to rewind time for that will be just an unsatisfying and unstakes way to do Avengers 4. I have a hunch that Red Skull and Gamora story are not over and they will talk to Thanos just like the people who are still alive will talk to Thanos in the material / corporeal / real world. But there will also be lots of fighting and such for this is a MCU movie after all.

UrielAwakened

2018-04-28, 08:59 PM

So did Batman v Superman. And to belittle it even further, as the population grows sending more people to an ever increasing ticket price the trend is just going to keep going irregardless of film quality.

I feel like those two points need to be repeated.
You are spot on with how Thanos acquiring the stones was pretty repetitive, several characters played out-of-role of sorts and there are several plot holes in the film that you can pick up on the first viewing. And you know the second time you watch the film things in that area only get worse.

Yeah, pretty clear you both missed that theme. The message of the movie is "How far are you willing to go to be a hero? To save the world?" Thanos is a creature of will, and the only one willing to make a tremendous sacrifice to get what he wants. Loki won't let Thor die, Peter won't up and kill Gamora before it's too late, Wanda doesn't kill Vision until it's too late, and Strange hands over the Time Stone (likely because it's required to reach that one particular outcome he foresaw them winning in). They're not plot holes. They're literally the message of the movie.

Ramza00

2018-04-28, 09:21 PM

I just realized we are now in the too many Peters land in the MCU verse just like there are too many actors who play MCU characters under the name Chris (Links to SNL and how Chris Pratt sings about all the different people with the name Chris in action movies. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGurtL83zhY)).

I blame this all on Stan Lee...I do not know why this is Stan Lee's fault, his has more of an alteration problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxh2j8c5n5M

Yet somehow it FEELS like it is Stan's Lee fault. Thus I am blaming him :smallcool: :smallwink:

Bartmanhomer

2018-04-28, 09:24 PM

Ramza00

2018-04-28, 11:23 PM

Ok I should have mentioned my review before. It was a good movie overall. So much action and excitement. The only part that I didn't like was the ending of the movie. It was so anti-cilmatic. They directors and writers of this movie could have come up with a better ending or at least end the Avengers movie series until they make a remake of it. But overall it was a good movie. I'll give it four out of five stars.

I am not disagreeing with you but I quoted you to repeat what you said for I agree with it for the most part and what you said is well said.

On the subject of so much action and excitement

The movie does has its problems (remember you can have problems and still be a good movie :smallwink: or an average movie :smallbiggrin:). One of the problems of Avengers 3 is that it pure rising action and for 150 minutes that is too much rising action for most people. There is a reason movies often have a 3 or 5 act action structure to help people have a few minute break from all the rising action or else it becomes a blur in the end. Even if the ending is superbly written it will be less enjoyable if you been on pure rising action for 150 minutes.

Sure you may like it when you leave the theater, but give it a week, two weeks, or a month and you will probably like it less. This is because human perception, consciousness, and long term memory abilities can't handle that much rising action for so long.

So while it is a good movie it probably would been more effective when you watch it at home again on streaming or blu ray to instead watch it in chunks like a 3 episode mini series. I did not time the specific scene changes so I can't tell you off the top of my head where to break this into chunk A, chunk B, and chunk C but as I get older and have more movie / storytelling experience I can recognize that this movie would be superior by allowing the viewer to take some breaks for there literally is no breaks in the rising action.

----

Some good storytelling stuff on this subject can be found in this specific youtube video and these 2 vox article

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE-6M7IbNSI&list=PLJGOq3JclTH8J73o2Z4VMaSYZDNG3xeZ7&index=3

https://www.vox.com/2015/4/2/8335137/the-americans-stingers-recap-review

https://www.vox.com/2016/6/29/12046656/independence-day-resurgence-bad-review-no-second-act-problem (the 2nd article is far more relevant to Avengers Infinity War but you need to understand some of the film studies term that the first article introduces.)

Some spoiler thoughts on what I wrote.

Somebody time this for me, for I am really curious. Can someone when they watch this movie for a 2nd time, use a clock and tell me how many minutes into the movie these 2 scenes occur.

1.) When Wong, Tony, and company stop talking about infinity stones (this specific time), for Tony asks about Strange's hair, and then the group go outside to see the spaceship that Ebony Maw and Cull Obsidian / Black Dwarf come from?

2.) When the Ebony Maw Spaceship first goes into Space with Strange and Spiderman is in tow.

I ask for these specific times for in a 2 act or 3 act movie Scene 2 is when Act 2 begins and Scene 1 is the transition point from Act 1 to Act 2 with the conflict now appearing on screen instead of merely exposition.

Ala

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/qXki6oSZdwhAwyzi3XPt-TB2gyQ=/0x0:600x352/1720x0/filters:focal(0x0:600x352):format(webp)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3566182/threeact.0.png

If I were to guess from memory and not recording this is what 20 minutes in for Scene 1 when we stop talking about the infinity stones and we move to the aliens invade new york. And probably 30 minutes in for the Spaceship in Space.

That leaves a 2+ hour Act 2, and their is no Act 3. All rising action no climax for the most part.

Edit: Before I hit post I could make the argument Act 2 happens with Human Vision and Scarlet Witch in Scotland and them being attacked, so maybe we can say 40 mins in. That is because if I recall correctly after the Spaceship enters space the Guardians found Thor and there is more exposition including splitting the party, followed by the scene moving to Human Vision Scarlet Witch and the Scotland attack.

This movie is just too long with no tonal break to cause a few minutes of chill. It feels like the Two Towers theatrical movie length even though that movie has about 30 odd more minutes of length on this Avengers 3 movie.

Oh on the subject of movies with a messed up act structure that are Tolkein adjacent, may I also recommend the Lindsay Elis 3 video series on how the Hobbit movies would have been so much better as a 2 movie picture for it fixes the problem with pacing and where you end the film and yadda yadda stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTRUQ-RKfUs&feature=youtu.be&list=PLtXtfBHN0Dn_qNQh3Aw7q4auhq_QS2wnr

Edit:Sidenote it is unclear how long this movie for I am getting multiple sources from the internet. I am curious how long this movie is from start credits to ending credits (not counting the scenes after the credits).

Bartmanhomer

2018-04-28, 11:29 PM

I am not disagreeing with you but I quoted you to repeat what you said for I agree with it for the most part and what you said is well said.

On the subject of so much action and excitement

The movie does has its problems (remember you can have problems and still be a good movie :smallwink: or an average movie :smallbiggrin:). One of the problems of Avengers 3 is that it pure rising action and for 160 minutes that is too much rising action for most people. There is a reason movies often have a 3 or 5 action structure to help people have a few minute break from all the rising action or else it becomes a blur in the end. Even if the ending is superbly written it will be less enjoyable if you been on pure rising action for 150 minutes.

Sure you may like it when you leave the theater, but give it a week, two weeks, or a month and you will probably like it less. This is because human perception, consciousness, and long term memory abilities can't handle that much rising action for so long.

So while it is a good movie it probably would been more effective when you watch it at home again on streaming or blu ray to instead watch it in chunks like a 3 episode mini series. I did not time the specific scene changes so I can't tell you off the top of my head where to break this into chunk A, chunk B, and chunk C but as I get older and have more movie / storytelling experience I can recongize that this movie would be superior by allowing the viewer to take some breaks for there literally is no breaks in the rising action.

----

Some good storytelling stuff on this subject can be found in this specific youtube video and these 2 vox article

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE-6M7IbNSI&list=PLJGOq3JclTH8J73o2Z4VMaSYZDNG3xeZ7&index=3

https://www.vox.com/2015/4/2/8335137/the-americans-stingers-recap-review

https://www.vox.com/2016/6/29/12046656/independence-day-resurgence-bad-review-no-second-act-problem (the 2nd article is far more relevant to Avengers Infinity War but you need to understand some of the film studies term that the first article introduces.)

Some spoiler thoughts on what I wrote.

Somebody time this for me, for I am really curious. Can someone when they watch this movie for a 2nd time, use a clock and tell me how many minutes into the movie these 2 scenes occur.

1.) When Wong, Tony, and company stop talking about infinity stones (this specific time), for Tony asks about Strange's hair, and then the group go outside to see the spaceship that Ebony Maw and Cull Obsidian / Black Dwarf come from?

2.) When the Ebony Maw Spaceship first goes into Space with Strange and Spiderman is in tow.

I ask for these specific times for in a 2 act or 3 act movie Scene 2 is when Act 2 begins and Scene 1 is the transition point from Act 1 to Act 2 with the conflict now appearing on screen instead of merely exposition.

Ala

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/qXki6oSZdwhAwyzi3XPt-TB2gyQ=/0x0:600x352/1720x0/filters:focal(0x0:600x352):format(webp)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/3566182/threeact.0.png

If I were to guess from memory and not recording this is what 20 minutes in for Scene 1 when we stop talking about the infinity stones and we move to the aliens invade new york. And probably 30 minutes in for the Spaceship in Space.

That leaves a 2+ hour Act 2, and their is no Act 3. All rising action no climax for the most part.

Edit: Before I hit post I could make the argument Act 2 happens with Human Vision and Scarlet Witch in Scotland and them being attacked, so maybe we can say 40 mins in. That is because if I recall correctly after the Spaceship enters space the Guardians found Thor and there is more exposition including splitting the party, followed by the scene moving to Human Vision Scarlet Witch and the Scotland attack.

This movie is just too long with no tonal break to cause a few minutes of chill. It feels like the Two Towers theatrical movie length even though that movie has about 30 odd more minutes of length on this Avengers 3 movie.

Oh on the subject of movies with a messed up act structure that are Tolkein adjacent, may I also recommend the Lindsay Elis 3 video series on how the Hobbit movies would have been so much better as a 2 movie picture for it fixes the problem with pacing and where you end the film and yadda yadda stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTRUQ-RKfUs&feature=youtu.be&list=PLtXtfBHN0Dn_qNQh3Aw7q4auhq_QS2wnr

Wow that an interesting perspective. I would have rated a 3 out of 5 stars for this movie but this movie deserve a 4 because it was a good movie despite the bad ending of it. If it was perfect 5 star rating it would be a perfect movie with a perfect ending which perhaps ending the Avengers movie series. So you're right about everything you said about it. :smile:

Christian

2018-04-29, 12:37 AM

The character I feel worst for is Rocket. That poor fella's lost two Groots now.

I mean, those don't grow on trees.

Ramza00

2018-04-29, 01:15 AM

The character I feel worst for is Rocket. That poor fella's lost two Groots now.

I mean, those don't grow on trees.

Responding to Christian

Comparing Infinity War's Characters to a previous MCU Movie... Spoilers

(pointing stuff out to myself, reflecting while talking to others, not really having a story to tell)

So while Infinity War's Starlord has completely regressed and is even worse than his Guardians of the Galaxy 2 version maturity wise (He seems far more sensitive, very defensive and reactive aggressive, he is far more emotionally raw. You can tell Quill is definitely not done dealing with grief of losing his adoptive father, and how he is currently dealing with feelings he can not process is adopting a false form of masculinity where he must challenge everyone, taking an existing unhelpful trait and making it 2 maybe 3 times worse.)

Rocket seems to have grown and is far more empathetic and while his hair still rise at being called a rabbit and other characterizations he does not self destruct in a way that Peter Quill / Starlord does.

And now they made my Rocket lose a 2nd Groot. Now when I say Groot I very much have the opinion that Groot is a completely different character than the original self since his memories are not preserved and he has a different personality.
It is his "clone son" for plants have several different methods of making clones that animals do not.

Lethologica

2018-04-29, 01:58 AM

Yeah, pretty clear you both missed that theme. The message of the movie is "How far are you willing to go to be a hero? To save the world?" Thanos is a creature of will, and the only one willing to make a tremendous sacrifice to get what he wants. Loki won't let Thor die, Peter won't up and kill Gamora before it's too late, Wanda doesn't kill Vision until it's too late, and Strange hands over the Time Stone (likely because it's required to reach that one particular outcome he foresaw them winning in). They're not plot holes. They're literally the message of the movie.
Something can be an intentional part of the message and still be repetitive, anvilicious, and unsatisfying. At least, that's how I personally felt about those scenes. Pretty much the only thing that kept the movie from being completely predictable for me was that I didn't know it was part one of two.

LaZodiac

2018-04-29, 02:51 AM

Aaaaah, good film. Some highlights.

If Thanos didn't have the reality stone Gamora would of straight up merced his ass. The Mad Titan, genuinely taken aback at his favorite daughter going straight for the throat. I loved this.

If not for the Gamora being dead part, our heroes WOULD OF WON. They BEAT THANOS. They had the gauntlet almost off. They had him. That's honestly brilliant because it shows how much effort you need to beat this guy, but you also show that he IS defeatable, without lessening the impact that he is just this behemoth.

The character interaction was the best part of the film, seeing how everyone interacted with each other, it was great. I felt it gave great weight to the film, and every second of it was tense, even when cut with comedy.

So, personal theory: Everyone who died on screen is Dead Dead. Loki, Heimdal, Vision, they're Dead Dead. They're not coming back, no matter what. Everyone who got poofed is coming back, and Steve and Tony will die trying to bring them back while using the stones at the finale of the next film. The exception to this is Gamora, in that Starlord will return the soul stone to it's resting place with Red Skull, exchanging a soul for a soul and getting Gamora back. He will likely say a dirty joke when they wake up in the water together, and she'll punch him in he stupid face. It will be precious.

AvatarVecna

2018-04-29, 09:04 AM

Went and saw this yesterday. Mixed feelings about the downer ending, but I got over it by reminding myself that this is just the first half of one long movie, so it doesn't have to be a complete story on its own.

People I expected to die...who didn't

Tony Stark, Captain America, Nebula, Thanos (classic monkey's paw, wishing for half the beings in the universe to die, and then losing that cosmic coinflip), Aunt May (well not confirmed anyway, so 50/50 odds she's still around)

People I expected to live...who didn't

Black Panther, Scarlet Witch, Starlord, Spider-Man, Nick Fury

Also, I must admit I was a bit distracted during this movie every time Nicolas Cage as Captain America was on-screen.

LaZodiac

2018-04-29, 10:23 AM

Cozzer

2018-04-29, 10:46 AM

@AvatarVecna: Well, about death tolls...

Considering most of the vanished characters are the newest ones, and a few of them already have sequels lined up, it's a safe bet that the second part will be about recovering the Gems and using them to reverse The Fingersnap (it's already been estabilished with Thanos reversing Vision's death, and with Dr Strange implying The Fingersnap was part of his plan). Which means the characters who died in the end of this movie are the only ones who are safe from actually dying during the actual conflict. So I think your expectations are going to be mostly correct, in the end. :smalltongue:

AvatarVecna

2018-04-29, 11:20 AM

Awe, don't be like that. It's a good beard.

I'm not complaining about the beard, I'm just saying that the beard, haircut, and face all together make him really look like Nick Cage. Like, the whole time, whenever he started speaking, I felt like the wrong voice was coming out of his mouth. It's uncanny.

LaZodiac

2018-04-29, 01:46 PM

I'm not complaining about the beard, I'm just saying that the beard, haircut, and face all together make him really look like Nick Cage. Like, the whole time, whenever he started speaking, I felt like the wrong voice was coming out of his mouth. It's uncanny.

I'm not gonna lie you're not wrong. I kinda hope he shaves it for next time.

Aedilred

2018-04-29, 02:02 PM

I will also say, there's something vaguely unsatisfying about Doctor Strange's part in this. I mean, at first it bothered me that he actually handed over the Time Stone despite his earlier warnings to Tony that he'd choose protecting it over protecting his or Peter's lives without hesitation, but after a moment to think about it it occurred to me that they're probably going for "he knows the one future in which they beat Thanos involves him getting all of the stones." Nonetheless, it feels less than satisfying that he didn't even try to make Thanos work for it, and especially that he never actually used the Time Stone against him. That's kind of the one major disappointment for me: the heroes had two of the Infinity Stones, one of which was in the hands of the most powerful magic-user on earth, and they never even tried to use them. Hell, Strange used the Time Stone to deal with Dormammu, so we know he's willing to use it when he has to, no excuses there.

Well, I mean, he did. He used it to look into the futures and determine the route to defeating Thanos. He didn't use it in combat, but that doesn't mean he didn't use it to defeat Thanos in the long run. After all, he didn't use it as a combat weapon against Dormammu either.

Went and saw this yesterday. Mixed feelings about the UNTAGGED SPOILER, but I got over it by blah blah blah.

Might want to spoiler that...

I mean, it's nothing that couldn't be surmised, but the message I'm getting for this one is for no spoilers of any kind, which is fair enough.

The Glyphstone

2018-04-29, 02:03 PM

I agree that Captain Beardmerica was just as weird for 2 hours as he was in the trailer.

Zevox

2018-04-29, 02:38 PM

Well, I mean, he did. He used it to look into the futures and determine the route to defeating Thanos. He didn't use it in combat, but that doesn't mean he didn't use it to defeat Thanos in the long run. After all, he didn't use it as a combat weapon against Dormammu either.
Eh, I guess you can argue that, but even that we're left to assume at this point, and it's pretty roundabout and indirect. When he used it against Dormammu it was at least pretty direct how it was affecting things: he trapped him in a time loop, which was pretty dramatically shown by Strange's repeated deaths only to return with the same opening line again and again. Here there's nothing of that sort, so it feels a lot more empty and unsatisfying.

It definitely seems like an attempt at least should have been made to do something like rewind time after Star Lord screwed up their attempts to get the gauntlet off him and try again. Probably wouldn't have worked for one reason or another of course, but they could at least have shown him trying to use it in that sort of manner - at least after Thanos destroyed the fake amulet. Then it wouldn't come across like they never attempted to use what should be a major trump card in their arsenal during their most desperate, must-win fight.

Re: Cap and his beard - Have to be honest, when he came on-screen, I actually had a moment where I wondered if we had just seen Wolverine walk into the movie. Don't really have a strong opinion on his appearance otherwise, but yeah, that happened.

GloatingSwine

2018-04-29, 05:01 PM

Eh, I guess you can argue that, but even that we're left to assume at this point, and it's pretty roundabout and indirect. When he used it against Dormammu it was at least pretty direct how it was affecting things: he trapped him in a time loop, which was pretty dramatically shown by Strange's repeated deaths only to return with the same opening line again and again. Here there's nothing of that sort, so it feels a lot more empty and unsatisfying.

It definitely seems like an attempt at least should have been made to do something like rewind time after Star Lord screwed up their attempts to get the gauntlet off him and try again. Probably wouldn't have worked for one reason or another of course, but they could at least have shown him trying to use it in that sort of manner - at least after Thanos destroyed the fake amulet. Then it wouldn't come across like they never attempted to use what should be a major trump card in their arsenal during their most desperate, must-win fight.

Re: Cap and his beard - Have to be honest, when he came on-screen, I actually had a moment where I wondered if we had just seen Wolverine walk into the movie. Don't really have a strong opinion on his appearance otherwise, but yeah, that happened.

Strange saw that this is not the desperate must-win fight, it's a stepping stone to the actual victory down the line.

Everything that happened in this movie was in his one in fourteen million victory, including his own disintegration.

I suspect that it means that Thanos' ideology must be defeated rather than simply punching him the best. If you take the infinity stones away from him he will just keep trying, he'll start again and keep trying over and over and eventually he will win.

Only by letting him succeed and experience for himself the hollowness of victory, as he does in the Infinity Gauntlet storyline where no matter the power he amasses and the opponents he defeats he never gets what he wants, can he actually be stopped for good.

Psyren

2018-04-29, 06:26 PM

It definitely seems like an attempt at least should have been made to do something like rewind time after Star Lord screwed up their attempts to get the gauntlet off him and try again. Probably wouldn't have worked for one reason or another of course, but they could at least have shown him trying to use it in that sort of manner - at least after Thanos destroyed the fake amulet. Then it wouldn't come across like they never attempted to use what should be a major trump card in their arsenal during their most desperate, must-win fight.

That's pretty much exactly what happened though - just without wasting valuable screentime on showing us something futile.
Those 14 million possible futures that all ended in failure, includes the ones where they successfully got the gauntlet off him, the ones where he warned everybody that Starlord would blow his gasket, the ones where he warned Starlord that Nebula would join the fray with some bad news about his lover, the ones where Starlord didn't blow his gasket, and so on and so forth. All those ended in failure. Strange's pre-vaporating line of "this was the only way" was quite literal - this was the only way things could have gone down that would result in the good guys winning the long game.

And unlike "Dormammu, I have come to bargain" - the failures weren't the point, so showing us them would have achieved nothing but pad out the movie unnecessarily and spoil the plot turns that came with them.

(Also, what GloatingSwine said.)

Red Fel

2018-04-29, 06:35 PM

I don't think I need to do a full review, personally - it was good, I enjoyed it. Not necessarily the same way I enjoyed Black Panther, but they were different movies - that was a drama with superhero elements, Infinity War is a superhero film with dramatic elements.

Instead, just a few observations.

Regarding Strange's prediction, I agree that this was all part of his endgame. He expected to lose this fight, but win in the long run. If memory serves, Thanos was defeated in the comics by being talked down and ultimately undoing what he did. You literally can't defeat someone who can control all of reality, so he had to be reasoned with. And Strange's choice made sense - Thanos wasn't going to stop if he didn't get the Stone. He was going to try again, and again, and again. Him ultimately getting what he wanted was the only thing that would stop him from doing more. And, at the same time, it would enable him to undo what he did to get it.

I had an issue with the CG in this movie. I didn't expect to. But I really did. And not just Thanos' scrotum-chin, either. A lot of the villains bothered me. Bruce's head floating above that CG suit bothered me. A lot of it bothered me more than it needed to.

I liked how they changed Thanos from the comics, frankly. In the comics, he's a full-on nihilistic psycho who wants to kill everyone as a gift to the literal personification of Death. (Dude, she's just not that into you.) In this one, sure he's disturbed, but he actually means well. He honestly believes in what he's doing. And in his own perverse way, he really is capable of love. It's kind of tragic.

I feel like the jumping from one storyline to another was not always handled well. There were plenty of opportunities do have an awesome scene or reveal - and we skipped it to transition to the action elsewhere. For example, I feel like the scene where Thor just shows up and starts dominating was pretty cool - but getting the reveal when the Axe was forged would have also been cool, and I feel like that was a missed opportunity.

I feel like Banner's Hulkular dysfunction could have been handled better. I think it was supposed to reflect how the Hulk, a being of primal emotion, was terrified for the first time in its existence of the fact that it was beaten. But that's conjecture; they did a poor job of explaining it properly, other than showing Hulk simply screaming "No!" every time it was invoked. And I really didn't feel like that was adequate.

I feel like the deaths, in most cases (exception: Gamora) lacked weight. And I know Marvel was going for the whammy here - the impossible act of killing off a main character. After all, the heroes are supposed to win, with the exception of one or two minor casualties. It was a smart thing for Marvel to actually allow major characters to die. (Although did two of the three black characters have to be pretty much the first ones to die? I feel like that was a bad trope to follow.) But unfortunately, so many died at once, and so quickly, that it had less emotional impact, less sting. More, "Who's next? Oh, there's another one." Parker's death in particular actually annoyed me - I understood that they were trying to hammer home the emotional impact on Tony, who felt responsible (and honestly was), but the fact that everyone except Peter vanished in seconds, while the kid had plenty of time to pull a Doctor Who "I don't want to go" speech before disintegrating, bothered me. It took me out of the moment for something that was clearly designed to hit harder, and failed as a result.

Side note, Strange's portals can cut off limbs. We saw that with Black Dwarf's arm in the early battle. So why didn't he just do that to Thanos' gauntlet hand?

Also, Squirrel Girl would totally have won.

Also also, I squee'd like an excitable adolescent at the post-credits teaser.

Bartmanhomer

2018-04-29, 07:12 PM

Rakaydos

2018-04-29, 07:38 PM

Cheesegear

2018-04-29, 07:49 PM

1. Disney wants to make Marvel movies (and sell toys) until we're all dead.
2. The McGuffin that they're fighting over, literally has the power to undo reality.

I find it really hard to care about what happened in Part 1, since I know pretty much everything will be undone in Part 2. :smallsigh:

Tvtyrant

2018-04-29, 08:08 PM

I loved the movie, it wrapped together a lot of problematic plots.

One of the things that it got across well was that the forest fire metaphor applies across the whole multiverse. If they had left Ronin or Hella half the universe wouldn't have just died, as Ronin with a stone might have killed Thanos and Hella absolutely would have.

I also really liked how they reveal how personal flaws make the ending possible. Strange and Stark through their superiority and arrogance, Starlord, Drax and Scarlett Witch through their emotions, even Roger's Outcasts by their isolation.

thorgrim29

2018-04-29, 08:09 PM

3 more things I've thought about:

I liked how they handled the groupings. They had team sass with Strange as a moderating influence and team serious with Bruce having fun and lightening the mood. I think a lot of thought went into that.

Also, the power levels of the Avengers are all over the place but they managed not to make it too noticeable. Tony does better at taking on Thanos 1 on 1 than Hulk does (1 reality stone before) and Thor gets blasted by a ton of fusion energy and hangs on long enough get his new magic ax. He is way OP after he gets the ax but that's the point. Not to mention Scarlet Witch who is more effective than most of the rest of the cast combined. Hell even Strange's sidekick is good enough at thinking with portals to be more effective than pre-Iron Spider Spiderman.

Even then, it felt like everybody else was doing something useful during the fights, including the woman with a shock-staff and the guy with a cudgel.

Also, thinking of Tony and Peter's suits here I think we have answered the question of who is better at making supersuits between Tony and Shuri, and it's Tony. That Mark whatever he's using here is hax. Though it seems he hasn't been upgrading Warmachine as much.

Cristo Meyers

2018-04-29, 08:44 PM

Saw it this morning. I wasn't really wowed. It was good. Entertaining. Funny at the right bits and dramatic at the others, but it didn't really feel like the grand finale (or rather, first half of it) that it's billed as.

I liked the way the group was split up, especially Tony ending up with the one person that can and will out-snark him and a group of others that just won't rise to the bait. Banner in the Hulkbuster was a nice switch, more on him below. I think I liked Thor's personal arc the most.

Thanos, of course, stole the show. It was easy to forget that this guy was planning on murdering half of the beings in the universe.

This is probably the minority opinion, but I didn't like either of Gamora's major scenes with Thanos. I found it too obvious that Thanos of course wasn't beaten so easily so the entire time she was purging all that pent-up hate was just spent waiting for the rug to get pulled out from under her. Same with the second. For me it crossed the line from drama into melodrama and left me just waiting for it to end.

The knowledge that fully half, if not all, of the dead characters are likely coming back prevented the ending from having the kind of impact they probably intended. I'm already familiar with the comic book world's revolving door to the afterlife, but knowing that there's a Black Panther 2 in the works certainly doesn't help.

I feel like Banner's Hulkular dysfunction could have been handled better. I think it was supposed to reflect how the Hulk, a being of primal emotion, was terrified for the first time in its existence of the fact that it was beaten. But that's conjecture; they did a poor job of explaining it properly, other than showing Hulk simply screaming "No!" every time it was invoked. And I really didn't feel like that was adequate.

I agree that should've been handled a bit more explicitly. I picked up on it right away, but it still came across as Hulk going all Achillies in his tent and sulking because he got beat up. Making it more explicit that the big guy was actually afraid would've upped the threat level of Thanos more effectively than most things. This is someone that the Hulk is afraid of, and we're supposed to stand against him? Instead it felt like a temper tantrum. In character, I guess, the Hulk is pretty child-like, but not nearly as effective.

Douglas

2018-04-29, 08:47 PM

Bartmanhomer

2018-04-29, 08:57 PM

I always thought that Hulk is usually the most bravest hero in the movie or at least in the comics. :confused:

Cristo Meyers

2018-04-29, 08:58 PM

Completely aside from all the moral and ethical problems, I see one really big practical flaw in Thanos' ideology. Suppose, for a moment, that Thanos is completely correct - there aren't enough resources to go around for everyone, and the population of everywhere needs to be cut back to a level the available resources can support. Even if that is true, Thanos' solution is only temporary. The halved populations will grow back up, and need to be cut down, again, and again, and again, forever. So, how long can Thanos keep doing it, and how will he decide when it's time?

Not to mention that, realistically, 1/2 is really more like 2/3 or even more. There are small populations that no doubt removing half basically dooms the rest to extinction. Then there's all those that will die in the ensuing chaos of half of a society just essentially vanishing.

I actually half expected Thanos to die at the end from this own Finger Snap of Doom, but then I realized that someone like that would never subject themselves to the same standard. He sees himself as special, the Only One with the will to Do What Needs To Be Done. It's ego, pure and simple.

Cheesegear

2018-04-29, 09:16 PM

I see one really big practical flaw in Thanos' ideology...

Not, you know...If you have a Gauntlet that can change reality, the idea of simply adding more resources, doesn't come up? :smallconfused:

Bartmanhomer

2018-04-29, 09:19 PM

I'm not the only person who have noticed that Thanos is too overpowered in the movie. He's too overpowered in the comics as well. :eek:

Zevox

2018-04-29, 09:25 PM

Any "plothole" starting with "why didnt Dr Strange..." is answered with "Because he knew it wouldnt have worked."

Particularly, in the fight aganst Thanos, Dr Strange is STALLING for the other plot arcs to resolve. If he used the time stone, Thanos would be on top of him instantly, with the full power of the Reality, Power and Space gems. He clearly knew that Stark had to survive his own encounter for the good ending to happen, but Thor also needed his new ax, and all of Thanos's trusted lieutenants needed to be defeated in Wakanda.

From this perspective, the entire encounter against Thanos was staged by Dr Strange to that end. Mantis disabling Thanos happened, but only as long as it could without Thanos losing his grasp on the gauntlet (and presumably upping his game to get it back, eliminate stark and get the time gem early, or else Stark or Starlord does something dramatic with the gauntlet himself and everything goes wrong in an entirely different way, a la Ultron), and major parts of the encounter were about getting Thanos monologing and slowing down Thanos's ability to use the gauntlet.

Despite everything Dr Strange could do, including an offer of the time stone framed in a way that had Thanos pausing to consider trickery, it almost wasnt enough-Thor arrives with the superax about the same time Thanos becomes unstoppable, well after Thanos left Dr Strange's ability to manipulate. As Strange says in the end... there really was no other way.
To be clear, I at no point have ever claimed that this minor gripe of mine is a plothole.
I'm saying only that I, personally, find it a little unsatisfying that we never got that moment of the heroes using one of the stones against Thanos directly. That despite them having two of the six, and one of them being in the hands of someone who very much knew how to use it, they never even tried that. I would be just that little bit happier with the film if we had that moment, even though it would assuredly not change the plot at all.

This is not some major criticism, it is me identifying something that I think would have been fun to see that we didn't get, which leaves me slightly disappointed because we didn't get it. That is all.

Cristo Meyers

2018-04-29, 09:41 PM

Not, you know...If you have a Gauntlet that can change reality, the idea of simply adding more resources, doesn't come up? :smallconfused:

I don't think that would ever occur to Thanos.

This is someone who settled on a course of action as Right and started imposing it on the universe before he ever had a single Stone. To just then turn around and go "I'll just add more resources" would be admitting that he was wrong first. I don't think his ego would allow that.

In-character, I'd see him dismissing such a thing with "but then they wouldn't learn." He thinks that once this is over the universe will be grateful. He says so himself. If you just add more stuff to go around, everyone will just make the same mistakes. With the Finger Snap of Doom the people of the universe will see and act accordingly in the future. Delusional? Sure, but this is someone that thinks slaughtering half the universe is a good idea.

Cheesegear

2018-04-29, 09:56 PM

Delusional? Sure...

That's the problem.
In the comics, Thanos had to murder a whole bunch of people, 'cause then he could get into Death's pants. There was a purpose to it.
In the movies, Thanos seems to be murdering a whole bunch of people, because he can, and his goal, is simply delusional, given his reasoning, and unlimited power. Given unlimited power, you choose to destroy half the universe? ...What are you, 14? Did you put any amount of thought into how unlimited power could be used for literally anything else, literally?

Which is the same problem that Ultron had. When your motivation doesn't make sense, you lose credibility, as a villain.
...Unless you're in a movie designed to sell toys to children, in which case nothing matters, and you can do whatever you want, no matter how stupid it is, because 'it's a movie designed to sell toys to children', so anything, is good enough.

Cikomyr

2018-04-29, 10:22 PM

Peter Parker's death cry really got to me. I was 60/40 regarding the new Spider Man, but oh god, hearing a kid cry he dont wanna die really did it.

Ramza00

2018-04-29, 11:34 PM

Psyren

2018-04-30, 12:10 AM

That's the problem.
In the comics, Thanos had to murder a whole bunch of people, 'cause then he could get into Death's pants. There was a purpose to it.
In the movies, Thanos seems to be murdering a whole bunch of people, because he can, and his goal, is simply delusional, given his reasoning, and unlimited power. Given unlimited power, you choose to destroy half the universe? ...What are you, 14? Did you put any amount of thought into how unlimited power could be used for literally anything else, literally?

Which is the same problem that Ultron had. When your motivation doesn't make sense, you lose credibility, as a villain.
...Unless you're in a movie designed to sell toys to children, in which case nothing matters, and you can do whatever you want, no matter how stupid it is, because 'it's a movie designed to sell toys to children', so anything, is good enough.

Wait... you thought "I'm doing this because I really want to bang a concept" was better writing? :smallconfused:

I for one am glad they jettisoned all the ridiculously cheesy "getting into Death's pants" parts of his character. About the only thing they slipped up on was explaining why using the gauntlet to provide a galactic cornucopia wouldn't have worked, but that's a blank I can easily fill in myself anyway.

Also, thinking of Tony and Peter's suits here I think we have answered the question of who is better at making supersuits between Tony and Shuri, and it's Tony. That Mark whatever he's using here is hax. Though it seems he hasn't been upgrading Warmachine as much.
[/spoiler]

I don't think that's been settled at all:
Sure Tony's been innovating more, but that's because he's been fretting over intergalactic threats like Thanos since A1. Shuri's biggest concerns meanwhile have been a few rival tribes and helping her brother chase down a smuggler. Necessity is the mother of invention, and Tony's had more necessity. The fact that she near-instantly thought of a better way to make Vision than Tony AND Bruce came up with suggests she'll come up with marvels (heh) of her own too.

1. Disney wants to make Marvel movies (and sell toys) until we're all dead.
2. The McGuffin that they're fighting over, literally has the power to undo reality.

I find it really hard to care about what happened in Part 1, since I know pretty much everything will be undone in Part 2. :smallsigh:

1) Journey, not destination. The entertaining part isn't what we know will happen, it's seeing how the MCU gets there (especially for those who know the specific way things went down in the comics.)

2) Given that they can (and probably will - eventually) just reboot the whole thing at some point anyway, setting it all really actually on fire is not an impossibility.

3) Unlike the comics, they don't have to worry too much about status quo here. Some of the sacrifices/deaths could indeed be permanent, gauntlet or no gauntlet. Remember, there's a lot of the verse they haven't tapped, and even among the bankable main line a lot of these characters have multiple incarnations. Killing off, say, Steve Rogers doesn't mean no more Captain America movies or toys to sell after all.

ATHATH

2018-04-30, 12:26 AM

An interesting article about the possibilities for Avengers 4 that I found (contains spoilers for Infinity War): http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/avengers-4-how-the-events-of-infinity-war-set-up-the-sequel

LaZodiac

2018-04-30, 12:28 AM

ATHATH

2018-04-30, 12:29 AM

Peter Parker's death cry really got to me. I was 60/40 regarding the new Spider Man, but oh god, hearing a kid cry he dont wanna die really did it.
This. This so god!@#$ much (even though I was pretty sure that they were gonna retcon it later). Well, except for the 60/40 part; I like him.

Ramza00

2018-04-30, 12:30 AM

LaZodiac

2018-04-30, 12:40 AM

So if you were to describe Tony and Shuri not as a technology experts but as magic or psionic users which domains would there magic mostly consist of? Aka things like Transmutation, Conjuration, Psycho-metabolism, etc?

Honestly given how Shuri's tech works it seems one step removed from Strange's magic, so I'd say it's just straight up whatever they call that. Tony's is more general transmutation though.

Darth Ultron

2018-04-30, 07:51 AM

They did explain why Thanos couldn't use the gauntlet to just give everyone infinite resources. It's in him explaining why he MUST do the genocide plan. He believes himself to be the only person who sees this as the sensible outcome. In effect, Thanos cannot use the gauntlet that way, because "he would not" use the gauntlet that way. That's just not how he thinks. That's what makes him the villain, in a sense.

Not in the movie that I recall. The comics had the more Cosmic Imbalance: there was too much life in the universe. The idea that life and death should be equal at about 50/50, but that life and good have been pushing that number. It's a bit of a metaplot as it makes the comment on comics as characters that ''die'' always seem to come back alive.

Well, I liked the movie a lot...and I have been a Thantos fan for years. I do wish we could have gotten more Thantos in the movie, you know, like maybe a couple minutes of MCU backstory. Like put the Titan stuff and Girl Gammora at the start of the movie, and give us a knowledge/reminder. Like have a seen where Thantos and Teen Girl Gammora are fighting some space mooks.....to get to the Infinity Well. Then Thantos learns about the Infinity Gems, and also informs/reminds the audience....and end it with Thantos looking at the camera to say something like ''there is too much life, I will do something about that."

But the movie just seems to assume everyone watching is a hard core fan....

More:

The movie mixes Andromeda, where the Guardians of the Galaxy are...and the Milky Way...very fast, like they are ''next door'' or something.

The heroes don't really have a reason to ''stop Thantos'', other then they are in the movie Infinity War. Only like Gammora, Nebula and Drax have even a slight connection it him. Everyone just kind of does it, mostly the heroes from Earth.

The ''civil war'' sure ended quick...for no reason. And it's not like the planet was going to blow up or something...

The fights are all a bit off. But then the movie has the huge power problem: Thantos and his goons are way more powerful then most of the heroes. Like Thor or Iron Man can take a cosmic punch or blast, but the rest can't. So it's odd to see like Black Widow get hit with a cosmic zap of like ''five pounds'' just enough to knock her down and mess up her hair. Why not crank up the power? Just a couple hundred more pounds and you can break bones in her body, for example. It is the same problem Roanan had in the first Guardians movie...he zaps them with the ''gentile knock down force''. And it's really odd when a blast or punch like destroys a metal object or even a stone wall....then the blast/punch that hits the hero is a ''love tap' one.

Why does Wakanda have the silly Gungun force field? What is the point of a force field people...or monsters...can walk through?

Devonix

2018-04-30, 07:55 AM

I usually love the marvel movies but this one... It just didn't do anything I didn't feel anything for it. The camera work was shoddy and jumping all over the place. Too many fight scenes in dark train stations or dark ships with muted colors.

But the biggest problem for me were the stakes. As in there weren't any and I could feel it more than I felt it in any other marvel movie.

Cikomyr

2018-04-30, 08:00 AM

More:

The movie mixes Andromeda, where the Guardians of the Galaxy are...and the Milky Way...very fast, like they are ''next door'' or something.

The heroes don't really have a reason to ''stop Thantos'', other then they are in the movie Infinity War. Only like Gammora, Nebula and Drax have even a slight connection it him. Everyone just kind of does it, mostly the heroes from Earth.

The ''civil war'' sure ended quick...for no reason. And it's not like the planet was going to blow up or something...

The fights are all a bit off. But then the movie has the huge power problem: Thantos and his goons are way more powerful then most of the heroes. Like Thor or Iron Man can take a cosmic punch or blast, but the rest can't. So it's odd to see like Black Widow get hit with a cosmic zap of like ''five pounds'' just enough to knock her down and mess up her hair. Why not crank up the power? Just a couple hundred more pounds and you can break bones in her body, for example. It is the same problem Roanan had in the first Guardians movie...he zaps them with the ''gentile knock down force''. And it's really odd when a blast or punch like destroys a metal object or even a stone wall....then the blast/punch that hits the hero is a ''love tap' one.

Why does Wakanda have the silly Gungun force field? What is the point of a force field people...or monsters...can walk through?

You know, if you watched the movie you would get the answers to the things that bug you.

Cheesegear

2018-04-30, 08:51 AM

He believes himself to be the only person who sees this as the sensible outcome.

I'm the only one who can do the thing...Using a thing that can literally be used by anyone.
The things you can do, are limited only by the scope of your imagination. The thing you decide on is killing everyone.

Congratulations. Your villain is 14 years old.

LaZodiac

2018-04-30, 08:59 AM

I'm the only one who can do the thing...Using a thing that can literally be used by anyone.
The things you can do, are limited only by the scope of your imagination. The thing you decide on is killing everyone.

Congratulations. Your villain is 14 years old.

We don't know if the Infinity Gauntlet can be used by everyone. We know Starlord was only able to use one gem because he has a bunch of friends and god dna in him, after all. Thanos being able to use all the stones without dying is actually impressive.

He's not 14 years old, he's ideologically set in stone. He see's his solution (cull half of the universe) as the perfect plan, and whenever he mentions it to people they tend to react poorly so he's gotten the mindset of really only HE is good enough to see what he's doing as right. This is entirely fair a characterization. It makes Thanos a monster, set in his ways, but it's not "stupid". It's the way that some people get so caught up in the solution they came up with that they don't stop to consider other options, an entirely valid thing that happens all the time.

Devonix

2018-04-30, 08:59 AM

Cheesegear

2018-04-30, 09:11 AM

We don't know if the Infinity Gauntlet can be used by everyone.

The Infinity Gauntlet merely provides someone with the protection to use all the Stones at the same time. Theoretically anyone could wear it.
However, movie-logic, as opposed to comics-logic, means that the Gauntlet is probably arbitrarily different to make Thanos more credible.

He's not 14 years old, he's ideologically set in stone.

Did you not understand my point? :smallconfused:

so he's gotten the mindset of really only HE is good enough to see what he's doing as right.

"Everyone is stupid except me."
No, you don't get it, he's not 14, right? :smallsigh:

It makes Thanos a monster, set in his ways, but it's not "stupid".

It makes him uncreative and extremely short-sighted. I think 'stupid' comes fairly close to apt.

It's the way that some people get so caught up in the solution they came up with that they don't stop to consider other options, an entirely valid thing that happens all the time.

Resources vs. Population is a real-world argument, that scientists IRL, are having right now. I'll give you a hint; Culling half the population isn't a solution even on the table. I wont go into what solutions are on the table, because that's real-world stuff.

Suffice to say, that Thanos has the mind-set of a 14 year-old. The Infinity Gauntlet can terraform planets.
He cried during the scene with Gamora. That's fine. An excellent moment of characterisation.
But, his characterisation as a villain, as the antagonist is stupid.

Devonix

2018-04-30, 09:22 AM

There's also how even with the gauntlet. His plan makes no gosh darn sense. Ok his whole deal is about there being a problem with resources. Alright that's something I can get behind. But then he jumps to wiping out half the population of the universe. Umm. How does that solve anything?

What about planets and places where there are an over abundance of resources?

What about places where there is a small population and culling half the number dooms the populous to extinction?

What's the exact number that's sustainable but not threatening?

What about places where they are stable, which means that they get back to a high population again. Are you gonna wipe them out again?

The problem is compounded by him saying that when he gets rid of half the universe he'd stop. Umm No, if you believe in your heart of hearts that this is the way to keep the universe safe and you're willing to kill untold trillions to do it. You'd also know that the only way something like this works is if it's a repeatable cycle. You'd have to do a constant culling of the universal population for it to make any lick of sense. Not only that you'd need to take a census to see that the population hasn't gone past your arbitrary. 1/2

Why Half and not 1/4 or 2/3? Why? Because that's what they did in the comics, but the problem is they took the comic action but with a motivation that doesn't match it.

Cikomyr

2018-04-30, 09:29 AM

Devonix

2018-04-30, 09:34 AM

Half is arbitrary, that's for sure. Its clear he hasnt put much thought in calculating the required number. Its probably just easier for him, before he had the Gauntlet, to manually massacre half of a population than start dividing in 3rds

It's just really weird. Half. ok half of what? So somewhere that has a population of 1million gets cut to 500k And a place that has just as many resources but only had a population of 10thousand gets cut to 5thousand? What kind of stupid sense does that make?

LaZodiac

2018-04-30, 09:43 AM

Look man, I've seen a lot of adults have that same mentality. It doesn't make him 14.

Also, at no point did I not say his plan isn't obviously flawed and stupid. All I'm saying is that it makes sense in character for him to not catch on the fact that there are other, better solutions. It's all an ego trip for him. Same with the dating Death thing in the comics, he is ultimately a person who believed he is unworthy of the actual importance of his goals and self sabotaged in ways he cannot realize because it's on a subconcious level. He cannot see the correct solution to his desires because it's not actually about solving the problem, it's about saying he did and agrandizing himself in the doing so.

Devonix

2018-04-30, 09:46 AM

Cheesegear

2018-04-30, 09:49 AM

What about planets and places where there are an over abundance of resources?

What about how the Infinity Gauntlet can do anything? Including terraforming.

What about places where there is a small population and culling half the number dooms the populous to extinction?

Something about the gene-pool, something about average IQ in a population.
Something about how certain individuals in any population - especially those at the top of whatever social structure is in place - and how random removal of said certain individuals causes society to collapse.

What's the exact number that's sustainable but not threatening?

Imagine if you had, like, something like a Time Stone, that could allow you to travel back in time to any population limit you decide.
What if you didn't just kill everyone? But enacted future population control?
Why is killing first on the table?

What about places where they are stable, which means that they get back to a high population again. Are you gonna wipe them out again?

Terraforming. Genetic engineering.
Do literally anything.

With unlimited power...Just kill people, I guess. :smallconfused:

Cikomyr

2018-04-30, 09:52 AM

It's just really weird. Half. ok half of what? So somewhere that has a population of 1million gets cut to 500k And a place that has just as many resources but only had a population of 10thousand gets cut to 5thousand? What kind of stupid sense does that make?

Look. There is some things to be said about the positives that comes out of culling large portions of the population. I have seen some analysis that points out that the absurdly large death toll of the Black Death in the Dark Age led to a labor shortage, enhancing the value of labor in the economy, leading to some rather impressive societal improvement when peasants started having more income and more rights.

That does not make "culling half the population" a good act. But its not as baseless as you think it might be.

-D-

2018-04-30, 09:53 AM

Wait... you thought "I'm doing this because I really want to bang a concept" was better writing? :smallconfused:

Yes. He was called Thanos, the Mad Titan. Because he was quite literally, mad. If I recall correctly, this was a guy that was given true immortality as a punishment. Imagine punishing Red Skull or Dr. Doom in the same manner.

Instead we got Thanos The Blind Idiot Titan. His solution is A) needlessly destructive and B) not in any shape permanent.

Devonix

2018-04-30, 09:54 AM

What about how the Infinity Gauntlet can do anything? Including terraforming.

Something about the gene-pool, something about average IQ in a population.
Something about how certain individuals in any population - especially those at the top of whatever social structure is in place - and how random removal of said certain individuals causes society to collapse.

Imagine if you had, like, something like a Time Stone, that could allow you to travel back in time to any population limit you decide.
What if you didn't just kill everyone? But enacted future population control?
Why is killing first on the table?

Terraforming. Genetic engineering.
Do literally anything.

With unlimited power...Just kill people, I guess. :smallconfused:

Exactly. Killing makes no sense because it in no way helps him to achieve his goals. It's not just a poor solution, it's actively worse and stupider than a million other things he could do.

thorgrim29

2018-04-30, 09:55 AM

I don't think that's been settled at all:
Sure Tony's been innovating more, but that's because he's been fretting over intergalactic threats like Thanos since A1. Shuri's biggest concerns meanwhile have been a few rival tribes and helping her brother chase down a smuggler. Necessity is the mother of invention, and Tony's had more necessity. The fact that she near-instantly thought of a better way to make Vision than Tony AND Bruce came up with suggests she'll come up with marvels (heh) of her own too.
[/SPOILER]

I say let Tony have his thing. He's basically the world's best engineer and does power generation and weapon systems, (also AI but JARVIS might have been a fluke since Friday doesn't seem to be actually self-aware). He's smart enough to be good at other super-sciency things (see Avengers 1) but they're not his Thing.

Shuri does pretty much everything but self-aware AI, from mining equipment to brain surgery. Besides, Wakanda has spies everywhere and a network of satellites (therefore apparently stealth rockets unless they launched all of those since Black Panther, either that or they're secretly funding Marvel's version of Space X) so they should have been as concerned with cosmic threats as Tony is. To be fair to Shuri she is limited by their weird attachment to fighting like pre-industrial warriors with nice gadgets (a bit like the Asgardians) though, I'm guessing T'Challa wouldn't want blasters on his suit even if she could put them there. Seriously T'Challa, your army looks very cool but it's not optimized at all.

Where are Valkyrie and Nakia? And where are the war rhinos? Did they have to put them down since only W'Kabi could control them and he's apparently been executed or at least jailed between movies?

Dragonus45

2018-04-30, 10:00 AM

Considering his major concern is entropy I imagine that not even the stones can really stop the long term problem he is worried about.

Devonix

2018-04-30, 10:02 AM

Psyren it's not that wanting to bang death is a better end goal for Thanos. It's that every action he made to achieve that goal made some deal of sense.

Thanos' goal here is interesting, but unfortunately the steps he takes to achieve that goal don't match his new goal.

They took the old action, and just crossed out the words Bang Death, with Balance the universe. And they don't fit.

Cheesegear

2018-04-30, 10:08 AM

They took the old action, and just crossed out the words Bang Death, with Balance the universe. And they don't fit.

The difference is that 'I want to bang Death', only had one solution. Death needs some sort of balance to the 'verse, which explicitly involves killing people.
It is the only option on the table, because it is the only acceptable solution.

'Balance resources vs. population' has so many possible solutions, especially when the person deciding, has - theoretically - unlimited power.

Talakeal

2018-04-30, 10:22 AM

I think they could have kept the concept of bringing balance to the universe without the whole "banging death" thing.

For Thanos he wasnt just in love with Death, he also worshipped her as a goddes and founded numerous religions in her name.

I really think they should have kept the death worshipper aspect of it and turned his quest into a holy crusade rather than something that is purely pragmatic, secular, and (il)logical.

Psyren

2018-04-30, 10:43 AM

Yes. He was called Thanos, the Mad Titan. Because he was quite literally, mad.

Riveting.

Instead we got Thanos The Blind Idiot Titan. His solution is A) needlessly destructive and B) not in any shape permanent.

a) The collateral damage being irrelevant to Thanos is kind of the whole point.
b) So what? If it's not permanent, he'll just do it again. You don't give up on having a pretty hedge because it needs pruning more than once. Especially when you see yourself as being the universe's only gardener.

Getting rid of all those navel-gazing cosmic superentities that do absolutely bugger-all until comic sales slump was a positive change in my book.

Honestly given how Shuri's tech works it seems one step removed from Strange's magic, so I'd say it's just straight up whatever they call that. Tony's is more general transmutation though.

I mean, they're both using nanotech in their suits now, which is basically magic.
I'd put Tony more on the Evocation and Conjuration side of things myself though.

The heroes don't really have a reason to ''stop Thanos'', other then they are in the movie Infinity War. Only like Gammora, Nebula and Drax have even a slight connection it him. Everyone just kind of does it, mostly the heroes from Earth.

There's more than that: Iron Man and Vision have both seen what Thanos is up to firsthand. Strange is protecting the stone(s) at all costs because he's looking even bigger picture than Thanos. Loki sided with him as part of a long con, and Thanos' punishment of the poor sap got Thor invested. Banner meanwhile has all the proof he needs thanks to Hulk's reaction.

Everyone else is connected to the characters above, so they don't all need to have axes to grind against Thanos specifically.

Cikomyr

2018-04-30, 11:16 AM

The difference is that 'I want to bang Death', only had one solution. Death needs some sort of balance to the 'verse, which explicitly involves killing people.
It is the only option on the table, because it is the only acceptable solution.

'Balance resources vs. population' has so many possible solutions, especially when the person deciding, has - theoretically - unlimited power.

Except the Complete Infinity Gauntlet does not has unlimited power. its expressedly shown in the movie.

Devonix

2018-04-30, 11:20 AM

Except the Complete Infinity Gauntlet does not has unlimited power. its expressedly shown in the movie.

But what he chose to do with the gauntlet vin no way furthers his goal

boj0

2018-04-30, 11:33 AM

Another thing to consider for Thanos having a flawed plan: He's too intelligent or powerful to really prove wrong; he can consistently show off to naysayers by just doing whatever impossible thing they say he can't do. Sure, he could have thought of a million different ideas for fixing the universe; but he didn't have to. He can make his idea the only viable one, and since he has so far been shown to be the only character to have that kind of agency; others can have ideas and wax philosophical, Thanos can make it happen.

Also, with the full set of Infinity Gems he can: have his plan work everywhere at once (Space), see all possibilities for his plan (Time), process that information and calculate the best way to do it (Mind), know who and what to cull (Soul), rewrite the laws of physics and logic to make it the best plan (Reality), and then have the ability to make it happen (Power). He didn't care if his idea was flawed, he liked his idea and BENT THE FOUNDATION OF EXISTENCE TO MAKE HIMSELF RIGHT.

But thing with Infinity War, and the comics it's based on is that Thanos is the main character, defeating the all-powerful Mad Titan isn't the story; it's how one being's will was so indomitable that nothing could stop him and how he deals with being all powerful. Also, it acts as a character study of what happens when an emotionally immature being is given all this power; as others have said both the comics and movie version of Thanos have very childish goals in mind, whether enacting cosmic nihilism or trying to impress a girl, all of his actions come across like a spoiled teenager. However, this purple man-child acts on a cosmic scale when he throws a temper tantrum, nobody bothers calling Thanos out on the stupidity of his plan, they try to stop him because he will kill them all to prove a point. I believe this is why they tried to humanize him so much in the movie, the problem gets solved by Thanos realizing the error of why he's doing all this, or by realizing that he doesn't deserve this power. I'll put money on it, A4 will fix the problem by either going the comic route and having Nebula get her revenge with the Gauntlet (which I think is likely since they kept her alive), or he'll have a heart to heart with Gamora in the Soul Realm and realize that this wasn't worth it (also possible, since they try to deviate a bit so comics fans can still be surprised). A Marvel movie will be solved by the villain going through character development :smallwink:

But I think we can all agree the best way to end the next movie is having Squirrel Girl beat down Thanos while the Celestials call him a big, fat loser.

Cikomyr

2018-04-30, 11:46 AM

But what he chose to do with the gauntlet vin no way furthers his goal

That's not necessarily true.. but in his logic and with the Empirical evidence he has witnessed, it did.

Legato Endless

2018-04-30, 01:07 PM

Thanos' original motivation wouldn't have worked in the film with the groundwork laid before in the MCU. Ignoring how silly it would have looked on screen, it's not feasible structurally. Avengers 3 already was balancing a staggering cast, and moving between them was already a juggling act that mostly seems to have worked for people. Death as a character adds a ton of unnecessary complications.

She's a character without any connection to anyone else in the story, so that plays hell with screen time. You've got to not only set up Thanos, but also Death, and their relationship, a whole subplot to a film with a more efficient story that's already nearly 3 hours. Even if Adam Warlock were already established, that's still a triangle of dead space separated from the rest of the cast. Then you've got the oddity of what it means to introduce a more abstract cosmic bit of world building and setting adjustment, and somehow avoiding all the plot incoherence Marvel comics proper invites with such fare.

Thanos' population control motive obviously isn't popular or taken as logical to everyone, and perhaps that should have been reworked, but dramatically, jettisoning Death and simply having Thanos' primary interactions be with Gamora as an already established character with tangible connections to other people was certainly more deft in terms of plotting and impact.

Malimar

2018-04-30, 01:24 PM

Has Thanos never heard of Trap-Neuter-Return? What a foolish grape he is.

Psyren

2018-04-30, 01:57 PM

The Glyphstone

2018-04-30, 02:09 PM

Though the GotG 1 stinger featured Howard The Duck. So Im not quite ready to take any stinger content as 100% truthful.

Mikeavelli

2018-04-30, 02:13 PM

I really think they should have kept the death worshipper aspect of it and turned his quest into a holy crusade rather than something that is purely pragmatic, secular, and (il)logical.

The Maw did give a pseudo-religious sermon to the dying Asgardians in the beginning of the film. I think they were planning to take this route with Thanos, and just kinda forgot about it as the film wore on.

GloatingSwine

2018-04-30, 02:20 PM

I doubt anything can be popular to "everyone." Luckily that's not the standard for success. There will always be naysayers.

As for Adam Warlock, yeah he's been set up (GotG2 stinger.)

Yeah, but GotG3 isn't going to be until after IW2.

The Marvel movies between this one and part 2 are Ant Man and the Wasp and Captain Marvel, and they both take place before Infinity War.

On Thanos' motivations: You don't have to agree with their logic, you just have to believe that he believes in them. And that much is obvious from the film.

Bartmanhomer

2018-04-30, 02:27 PM

I think Thanos used the Soul Stone which everybody dissolved in the end of the movie.

Anteros

2018-04-30, 02:52 PM

I didn't particularly care for the movie. It wasn't awful, but it also wasn't good.

The villain's motivations are the type of thing a particularly idiotic edgy teenager would come up with. Sure, it wasn't much better in the original comic, but in the comic Thanos was being heavily manipulated by Death and Mephisto the entire time. Plus, the comic took itself a lot less seriously.

The scale of the conflict was incredibly minor. In the source material Thanos' power is quite literally without limit. In this movie he struggles to remove Spider-Man's webbing from his arm. I'm not sure why you're even going to bother using someone like Thanos as a villain if you're going to nerf him so much.

Also, Wakanda is supposed to be this super advanced place, and the Avengers are supposed to be world shatteringly powerful heroes...yet I'm pretty sure one military division from any competent modern army could have made a better showing against Thanos' army. Fate of the world at stake? Better go stab the enemy with spears! It's cool though, they're totally laser spears that can shoot like one projectile per minute! Idiotic. Just another of the many problems with scale in the movie. We're told these people are powerful enough to level planets, but nothing impressive ever actually happens on screen. We only ever see the after effects.

GloatingSwine

2018-04-30, 03:17 PM

I didn't particularly care for the movie. It wasn't awful, but it also wasn't good.

The scale of the conflict was incredibly minor. In the source material Thanos' power is quite literally without limit. In this movie he struggles to remove Spider-Man's webbing from his arm. I'm not sure why you're even going to bother using someone like Thanos as a villain if you're going to nerf him so much.

In the Infinity Gauntlet story Thanos starts with all six infinity gems, at the point he's fighting on Titan he only has three, and he has to actively do things with them separately.

In all the other stories he shows up in he's nowhere near that powerful. He's a one-on-one fight for someone like Mar-Vell.

Ramza00

2018-04-30, 04:16 PM

Well, I liked the movie a lot...and I have been a Thantos fan for years. I do wish we could have gotten more Thantos in the movie, you know, like maybe a couple minutes of MCU backstory. Like put the Titan stuff and Girl Gammora at the start of the movie, and give us a knowledge/reminder. Like have a seen where Thantos and Teen Girl Gammora are fighting some space mooks.....to get to the Infinity Well. Then Thantos learns about the Infinity Gems, and also informs/reminds the audience....and end it with Thantos looking at the camera to say something like ''there is too much life, I will do something about that."

But the movie just seems to assume everyone watching is a hard core fan....

That is the beauty of movie merchandising, you get to sell not just toys but also other things that tie together to create a "world"

Avengers: Infinity War’s big bad Thanos is getting his own origin story
Caveat: you have to read a book
https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/16/17243794/avengers-infinity-wars-thanos-origin-story-marvel

We need not a Zombie Walt Disney, his life force, his essence, his philosophy still exists in House of Mouse company :smallwink:

Look man, I've seen a lot of adults have that same mentality. It doesn't make him 14.

Also, at no point did I not say his plan isn't obviously flawed and stupid. All I'm saying is that it makes sense in character for him to not catch on the fact that there are other, better solutions. It's all an ego trip for him. Same with the dating Death thing in the comics, he is ultimately a person who believed he is unworthy of the actual importance of his goals and self sabotaged in ways he cannot realize because it's on a subconcious level. He cannot see the correct solution to his desires because it's not actually about solving the problem, it's about saying he did and agrandizing himself in the doing so.

Exactly it is all about his gratification, it is all about gratifying himself. I will put Women in Refrigerators Half of the Universe in Refrigerators, for doing so makes me more gratified.

Seriously Thanos is just messed up in the head. This type of mindset was very common in the 1800s and early 1900s (catches himself before he gets too close to history with the forums rules for there were some very specific social movements in historical past but also historical present)

Thinking the world is static, the resources are always limited, and people can't change is nonsense. This is a problem of mindset, the universe is not Malthusian (1798 theory) where will just run out of food and resources, the Haber–Bosch process process (1909) is probably the most important scientific invention in the last 200 years for it allowed the creation of artificial fertilizers which allowed you to increase crop yields by restoring nitrogen depleted soil. Furthermore other things happened that allowed populations to stabilize by having more predictable survival rates and thus people adapted both due to economics and choice to have less kids until most countries are now about the stabilization rate of 2ish to 2.2ish kids.

Why is killing first on the table?

Exactly this is not really about Death, this is not really about Killing. This is Thanos and his inability to deal with things that cause him pain, and his high amount of cognitive empathy, but low amount of emotional empathy, and his messed up theory of mind. Aka it is all about Thanos, it is all about him, but he is convinced he is helping everyone else when in reality he is not.

Gamora his daughter gets it, his other daughter Nebula get it, people who have lived with him pretty much get it (besides the 4 Children of Thanos, henchman) this man is mad and toxic.

Aka Thanos plan is temporary in nature where he will always have to keep on snapping his fingers to create balance. To Thanos (though he has not realized it in his conscious mind) the power of the glove is not the power to wipe out 1/2 of the universe, no that stuff happens naturally and he does not need to get involved for these natural processes to occur.

No the point is euthanasia, to end suffering before suffering occured, except reality does not work this way. Think about it for a second this man is doing a needless genocide, it is like shooting Old Yeller before the dog got Rabies. Thanos is not sympathetic he is NUTS. He took natural human feelings and takes them to Cooko-ville for his actions does not solve the problem nor do they solve the feelings.

I have anger, I have smoldering rage, and I hurt so much Thanos says, so let me fridge 1/2 the universe, and I will have to keep fridging 1/2 the universe for balance will keep on getting out of control.

Thanos does not need an infinity gauntlet he needs Therapy, he is a walking man-child with no respect for personal boundaries.

Legato Endless

2018-04-30, 04:40 PM

The Maw did give a pseudo-religious sermon to the dying Asgardians in the beginning of the film. I think they were planning to take this route with Thanos, and just kinda forgot about it as the film wore on.

Naw, the religious angle is just a way to differentiate Maw as one of Thanos' children. He's the herald in love with the sound of his own voice so he gets to spout propaganda to the people they slaughter. Apparently Corvus and Proxima had a footage fleshing them out as a couple but that was cut from the runtime.

I doubt anything can be popular to "everyone." Luckily that's not the standard for success. There will always be naysayers.

As for Adam Warlock, yeah he's been set up (GotG2 stinger.)

I know. I meant more in the sense of not being established in terms of characterization before showing up here, and even if he had, it would have been a fairly clumsy bit of plotting.

Anteros

2018-04-30, 05:02 PM

In the Infinity Gauntlet story Thanos starts with all six infinity gems, at the point he's fighting on Titan he only has three, and he has to actively do things with them separately.

In all the other stories he shows up in he's nowhere near that powerful. He's a one-on-one fight for someone like Mar-Vell.

Even with just the power stone he should be a world shatterer. He certainly shouldn't be struggling against the likes of Spider-man. Even when he had all 6 in the movie he's significantly nerfed. He's depicted as completely omnipotent in the comic when he has all 6. In the movie Thor almost manages to kill him, and using the gauntlet once destroys it.

Cheesegear

2018-04-30, 05:13 PM

Thanos does not need an infinity gauntlet he needs Therapy, he is a walking man-child with no respect for personal boundaries.

In which case you've confirmed what I've been saying.
He's a 14 year-old with too much power. Stellar villain writing. :smallsigh:

Tvtyrant

2018-04-30, 05:22 PM

In which case you've confirmed what I've been saying.
He's a 14 year-old with too much power. Stellar villain writing. :smallsigh:

...Everyone in the story acts like a 14 year old. From the good ship Stark//Strange being the kid who can't stop mocking people and boasting about themselves to Roger's obsession with his best friend to Scarlett Witch and Vision's teenage relationship. Starlord's crew are basically nothing but obnoxious teenagers.

I think that knocking a series marketed largely at children and teenagers for using arguments and ideologies that are conceptionally teenage in form is a bit silly. Even Civil War was essentially the battle between the teacher's pet and the rebel student, with a bullying but powerless authority figure representing the seemingly obtuse bureacracy that dominates adulthood.

Imagine if the bad guy was ideologically driven and an adult. "At last with the power of the infinity stones I will be able to enforce a uniform 6.8% corporate tax rate, open trade and a singular coinage system across the galaxy! This will maximize production and prevent monetary inflation for 40 years! Tremble before me mortals!"

Ramza00

2018-04-30, 05:39 PM

In which case you've confirmed what I've been saying.
He's a 14 year-old with too much power. Stellar villain writing. :smallsigh:

I was agreeing with you, I am sorry if it was not obvious for you to pick up on. :smalltongue::smallwink: (a little tease and a grin on my face when I say this)

But I was also disagreeing with other people who think Thanos is relatable . I am like [3 syllable expletive] gals and guys, how can you think a guy who thinks genocide is an acceptable response to his emotions, how can that be relatable? I stand in horror with my mouth open.

Note these people I am talking about are not saying the emotions themselves are relatable, no it is further than that. There are some people who if an actual magical macguffin that does what the infinity gauntlet does, well Thanos has a kind of good plan and they would be with Team Thanos.

And all I can think and feel when I hear this stuff in the internet but also when I leave a movie theater is this

https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2016/10/cbs.jpg?w=620&h=465&crop=1

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/175/315/PicardDoubleFacepalm-1.jpg

https://superiorrealities.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/colbert-quadruple-facepalm.jpg?w=640

Imagine if the bad guy was ideologically driven and an adult. "At last with the power of the infinity stones I will be able to enforce a uniform 6.8% corporate tax rate, open trade and a singular coinage system across the galaxy! This will maximize production and prevent monetary inflation for 40 years! Tremble before me mortals!"

Isn't this effectively a Monty Python Skit?

Many MP skits are taking extreme modernist viewpoints of the world, modernist viewpoints that say there is mostly one way to look at the world one timeline that determines progress and MP plays the devil's advocate and thus express that life is messy, life is kind of like biology with a mixture of many things in a mosaic and thus the modernist viewpoint is silly and you should think more post modernist?

Someone who is more familiar with the fancy terms will probably correct me saying you meant to use word X' instead of X but I think I got the guts of it did I not?

6.8% corporate tax rate, hehe.

Tvtyrant

2018-04-30, 05:52 PM

I was agreeing with you, I am sorry if it was not obvious for you to pick up on. :smalltongue::smallwink: (a little tease and a grin on my face when I say this)

But I was also disagreeing with other people who think Thanos is relatable . I am like [3 syllable expletive] gals and guys, how can you think a guy who thinks genocide is an acceptable response to his emotions, how can that be relatable? I stand in horror with my mouth open.

Note these people I am talking about are not saying the emotions themselves are relatable, no it is further than that. There are some people who if an actual magical macguffin that does what the infinity gauntlet does, well Thanos has a kind of good plan and they would be with Team Thanos.

And all I can think and feel when I hear this stuff in the internet but also when I leave a movie theater is this

https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2016/10/cbs.jpg?w=620&h=465&crop=1

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/175/315/PicardDoubleFacepalm-1.jpg

https://superiorrealities.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/colbert-quadruple-facepalm.jpg?w=640

Isn't this effectively a Monty Python Skit?

Many MP skits are taking extreme modernist viewpoints of the world, modernist viewpoints that say there is mostly one way to look at the world one timeline that determines progress and MP plays the devil's advocate and thus express that life is messy, life is kind of like biology with a mixture of many things in a mosaic and thus the modernist viewpoint is silly and you should think more post modernist?

Someone who is more familiar with the fancy terms will probably correct me saying you meant to use word X' instead of X but I think I got the guts of it did I not?

6.8% corporate tax rate, hehe.

That is a reasonable way of expressing my point. The changes that a versed adult would make are systemic and not something that you can enforce through a magic wishing glove. Thanos needs to be childlike to be a credible threat.

Also that the target audience substantially includes children and teenagers who would not appreciate a Star Trek style argument over interstellar politics.

Anteros

2018-04-30, 05:55 PM

That is a reasonable way of expressing my point. The changes that a versed adult would make are systemic and not something that you can enforce through a magic wishing glove. Thanos needs to be childlike to be a credible threat.

Also that the target audience substantially includes children and teenagers who would not appreciate a Star Trek style argument over interstellar politics.

Not really though. You're acting like there's no middle ground between your overly complicated example and the complete idiocy of what we actually got. It's perfectly possible to have a villain with a believable plan that makes sense. Books and movies do it all the time.

Tvtyrant

2018-04-30, 06:03 PM

Not really though. You're acting like there's no middle ground between your overly complicated example and the complete idiocy of what we actually got. It's perfectly possible to have a villain with a believable plan that makes sense. Books and movies do it all the time.
Involving infinite power? Give me some examples.

Most evil people are snidely whiplash at best, their success would be rapey and involve universal mind control. Hella, Hydra/Red Skull, Ronin, Loki, name any bad guy in the universe who got the infinity gauntlet anf the plot ends.

Thanos offers a unique position where he can succeed without the franchise ending and still be evil. He is also no more childish then the majority of other bad guys or heroes in their universe.

LaZodiac

2018-04-30, 06:07 PM

The Maw did give a pseudo-religious sermon to the dying Asgardians in the beginning of the film. I think they were planning to take this route with Thanos, and just kinda forgot about it as the film wore on.

Right I forgot to actually post this post.

Yeah that's just Ebony Maw's thing. I imagine the others make fun of him behind his back.

Kitten Champion

2018-04-30, 06:12 PM

That is a reasonable way of expressing my point. The changes that a versed adult would make are systemic and not something that you can enforce through a magic wishing glove. Thanos needs to be childlike to be a credible threat.

Also that the target audience substantially includes children and teenagers who would not appreciate a Star Trek style argument over interstellar politics.

Also, mythologies are composed of immature, emotion-driven characters. Where simple and straightforward feelings are the spark for the drama that usually ends up with oodles of mortals dead and the lamentable conclusions of Heroes.

Not, ya'know, reasonable people with differences of opinion.

Cikomyr

2018-04-30, 06:15 PM

In which case you've confirmed what I've been saying.
He's a 14 year-old with too much power. Stellar villain writing. :smallsigh:

Comic books are originally meant for kids and ways will have a simplicity of heart for it. And that is fine; it does not make the stories bad.

Ramza00

2018-04-30, 06:18 PM

Thanos offers a unique position where he can succeed without the franchise ending and still be evil. He is also no more childish then the majority of other bad guys or heroes in their universe.

Agreed Thanos is more child like yet more powerful than most MCU villians. Well most may not be the right term, crosses out most MCU villians, but lets say 30 to 50% of the villians in a MCU movie are far more cognitively, emotionally, and theory of mind at a higher level than Thanos. Aka Thanos is a man child with a titan's body and massive power. 30 to 50% of the MCU villians actually feel like they are adults even if they are evil.

Yet somehow Thanos is getting all this press / fan commentary recently that this is a MCU villian 1) they can relate to and 2) he is not forgettable, 3) no he is very understandable as well as memorable. I do not understand this...maybe the problem is me, it very well could be.

Malimar

2018-04-30, 06:22 PM

Not, ya'know, reasonable people with differences of opinion.
The funny thing to me about this debate is that earlier in the MCU they did make a pretty compelling move out of mostly reasonable people with differences of opinion; they called it Civil War. So the "immature characters is just a feature of the art form" argument doesn't really entirely hold water.

Tvtyrant

2018-04-30, 06:27 PM

Agreed Thanos is more child like yet more powerful than most MCU villians. Well most may not be the right term, crosses out most MCU villians, but lets say 30 to 50% of the villians in a MCU movie are far more cognitively, emotionally, and theory of mind at a higher level than Thanos. Aka Thanos is a man child with a titan's body and massive power. 30 to 50% of the MCU villians actually feel like they are adults even if they are evil.

Yet somehow Thanos is getting all this press / fan commentary recently that this is a MCU villian 1) they can relate to and 2) he is not forgettable, 3) no he is very understandable as well as memorable. I do not understand this...maybe the problem is me, it very well could be.

So I argued above that Thanos is marketed to children and teenagers, who have difficulty understanding adult characters.

Here you are claiming not to understand the popularity of a figure who people rank above other villains in the setting.

Very compactly: The MCU is aimed at children and teenagers. Thanos is aimed at and successful with his target audience. Like Voldemort, expecting Thanos to act like an adult is missing the point of the character. Thanos offers a comprehensible and credible threat for teenagers and children.

Attempts to make him smarter and more adult would make him less popular among his target audience. If they would make him more popular with you, you are not his target audience.

Psyren

2018-04-30, 06:32 PM

Though the GotG 1 stinger featured Howard The Duck. So Im not quite ready to take any stinger content as 100% truthful.

I think it's pretty easy to spot the "humor stingers" (A1, GotG1, Homecoming) vs. the "this will be important later" stingers. A giant egg/pod is important, because eggs hatch/pods open eventually - Chekov's Gun writ large.

Yeah, but GotG3 isn't going to be until after IW2.

The Marvel movies between this one and part 2 are Ant Man and the Wasp and Captain Marvel, and they both take place before Infinity War.

Oh I'm not saying Warlock will be important for concluding IW specifically. Just that he's definitely a thing in the MCU, and he's pretty tied up in the mythology of the stones (almost as much as Thanos himself.) I do agree he needs more setup before actually becoming a player, but the seed is there.

I think Thanos used the Soul Stone which everybody dissolved in the end of the movie.

In the comics,
the soul gem stores everyone it "kills" within itself, in a pocket dimension. If they carry that through to the MCU soul stone, That could very well be where everybody poofed to post-snap, and be the key to bringing some or all of them back.

But I was also disagreeing with other people who think Thanos is relatable . I am like [3 syllable expletive] gals and guys, how can you think a guy who thinks genocide is an acceptable response to his emotions, how can that be relatable? I stand in horror with my mouth open.

You are confusing understanding Thanos with relating to Thanos. The former simply requires that I know what he's trying to accomplish, not that I agree with it in the slightest. What Thanos is after is not even all that esoteric a concept (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culling), it's just barbaric (and dubious) when applied to sapient life. He obviously doesn't care, but that doesn't make him unfathomable, just an adversary to be stopped.

Cheesegear

2018-04-30, 06:38 PM

The funny thing to me about this debate is that earlier in the MCU they did make a pretty compelling move out of mostly reasonable people with differences of opinion; they called it Civil War. So the "immature characters is just a feature of the art form" argument doesn't really entirely hold water.

The problem with Civil War, happens about 90 minutes in, with the stupid clusterf*** fight at the airport hangar.
When the most important fight in the whole movie, happens in a dark cave, between Bucky, Steve and Stark. The three central figures of the story.

Bucky killed Stark's parents.
But Bucky is Steve's friend, and Bucky was brainwashed.
...But he killed Stark's parents...

Then Cap drops his scratched Shield in the snow.

But you gotta have that airport scene.
'Cause you gotta sell toys.

Kitten Champion

2018-04-30, 06:39 PM

The funny thing to me about this debate is that earlier in the MCU they did make a pretty compelling move out of mostly reasonable people with differences of opinion; they called it Civil War. So the "immature characters is just a feature of the art form" argument doesn't really entirely hold water.

No. Civil War has a civilized argument as background noise. The core conflict is an emotional one that completely overshadows it at the end.

Zemo wants revenge on the Avengers as a result of an inciting incident in Age of Ultron caused by hubris and fear.
T'Challa wants vengeance against Zemo as a result of Zemo's revenge killing his father.
Tony wants his own revenge on Bucky for killing his parents.
Steve wants to protect Bucky out of love.
Bucky wants some kind of redemption for his actions.

None of this has anything to do with the Accords. That's why the conclusion of the story isn't "you broke the law" it's "he killed my mom".

Tvtyrant

2018-04-30, 06:46 PM

Speaking of man-childs being relatable, think about Scar's cruddy plan in the Lion King. He is easily the best disney villain from his era, and is driven entirely by the inferiority complex he gained as a child. Loki is almost literally the same character, and is widely held as the best Marvel villain.

Ramza00

2018-04-30, 07:03 PM

So I argued above that Thanos is marketed to children and teenagers, who have difficulty understanding adult characters.

Here you are claiming not to understand the popularity of a figure who people rank above other villains in the setting.

I hear what you are saying TVTyrant and let me repurpose / redirect your attention so you better understand my complaint.

1) I have nothing against Disney making the villian the way they did. Its a movie and Disney is allowed to make him whatever way they want. And making him the way they did kind of works for this movie, for movies are allowed to be silly things.

2) I have no problems with children or teens saying relating to Thanos and being on Team Thanos for they are Children and Teens. They have less experiences than adults, and there brains are at different stages of development as adults. Children and Teens have limited ability at this specific time and space aka at their ages to change the society and the culture in an immediate fashion. I have faith they will grow up over the next few years to decades.

3) It is extremely creepy hearing men and women from 20+ years of age saying this stuff and saying Thanos makes sense and they are on Team Thanos. Note when I say men and women I can actually only memory recall men doing this, but I am not a 100% trusting of my memory and maybe surely I can think of a women saying something like this that I am going to include both genders even though I can think of male examples and no female examples.

It is so creepy to have adults like Thanos for Thanos, and not an obstacle to overcome. It gives me the goosebumps and creeps me out and suddenly I have the urge to have a single drink.

You are confusing understanding Thanos with relating to Thanos. The former simply requires that I know what he's trying to accomplish, not that I agree with it in the slightest. What Thanos is after is not even all that esoteric a concept (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culling), it's just barbaric (and dubious) when applied to sapient life. He obviously doesn't care, but that doesn't make him unfathomable, just an adversary to be stopped.

I find it astonishing that people feel the need to voice outloud into society that they could relate to the simmering rage of Thanos, and also relate to lets just kill half of the people (I am going to use the word fridge from now on for it is more fun and it has more relevance to comics), and not even think about what a culling actually means.

You fridge the girl, what does it mean to fridge the girl? ===> Well I am giving green latern an arc, ergo there is this body in the fridge for Green Lantern to discover ===>Wait, wait, wait you just fridge a human being? Once it happens everyone is supposed to forget about it and it becomes a utopia new status quo? So the person in the fridge is thus perfectly expendable and the only thing that matters is the emotions of the person opening the fridge?===>Yes that is the story I want to tell and it is Drama===> And since the Drama sells and people like the Drama===>It must be its own virtue, its own form of good.

Spoilers from infinity war with specific dialogue

Gamora: I hate that chair.

Thanos: So I’ve been told. Even so, I’d hope you would sit in it one day.

Gamora: I hated this room. This ship. I hated my life.

Thanos: You told me that too. Every day. For almost 20 years.

Gamora: I was a child when you took me.

Thanos: I saved you.

Gamora: No, no, we were happy on my home planet.

Thanos: Going to bed hungry. Scrounging for scraps. Your planet was on the brink of collapse. I was the one who stopped that. You know what’s happened since then? The children born have known nothing but full bullies and clear skies. It’s a paradise.

Gamora: Because you murdered half the planet.

Thanos: A small price to pay for salvation.

Gamora: You’re insane.

Thanos: Little one, it’s a simple calculus. This universe has finite its resources, finite… if life is left unchecked, life will cease to exist. It needs correcting.

Gamora: YOU DON’T KNOW THAT!

Thanos: I’m the only one who knows that. At least I’m the only who the will to act on it. For a time, you had that same will. As you fought by my side, daughter.

Gamora: I’m not your daughter. Everything I hate about myself, you taught me.

Thanos: Then in doing so, made you the fiercest woman in the Galaxy.

Who sits in the Chair Thanos? Who sits in the Chair?

Cheesegear

2018-04-30, 07:09 PM

*Imagines Thanos wearing a fedora and wielding a katana*

Tvtyrant

2018-04-30, 07:20 PM

I hear what you are saying TVTyrant and let me repurpose / redirect your attention so you better understand my complaint.

1) I have nothing against Disney making the villian the way they did. Its a movie and Disney is allowed to make him whatever way they want. And making him the way they did kind of works for this movie, for movies are allowed to be silly things.

2) I have no problems with children or teens saying relating to Thanos and being on Team Thanos for they are Children and Teens. They have less experiences than adults, and there brains are at different stages of development as adults. Children and Teens have limited ability at this specific time and space aka at their ages to change the society and the culture in an immediate fashion. I have faith they will grow up over the next few years to decades.

3) It is extremely creepy hearing men and women from 20+ years of age saying this stuff and saying Thanos makes sense and they are on Team Thanos. Note when I say men and women I can actually only memory recall men doing this, but I am not a 100% trusting of my memory and maybe surely I can think of a women saying something like this that I am going to include both genders even though I can think of male examples and no female examples.

It is so creepy to have adults like Thanos for Thanos, and not an obstacle to overcome. It gives me the goosebumps and creeps me out and suddenly I have the urge to have a single drink.

I find it astonishing that people feel the need to voice outloud into society that they could relate to the simmering rage of Thanos, and also relate to lets just kill half of the people (I am going to use the word fridge from now on for it is more fun and it has more relevance to comics), and not even think about what a culling actually means.

This I can see as problematic.

I would like to think it comes from the same place as my own love of Magneto and Norman Osbourne: people enjoying the dream of being able to follow their own desires without feeling the external imposement of social values. That doesn't mean that I want Magneto or Osbourne to succeed (I find the real world analogies repugnant at best) or to be like them, but indulging in a childish dream of being unrestricted.

I like Batman and the Punisher as well, not because I share their opinions but because I don't. I believe you can indulge in even abhorrent fantasies without actually desiring those things.

Edit: Thanos would absolutely call Death milady.

Psyren

2018-04-30, 07:50 PM

I find it astonishing that people feel the need to voice outloud into society that they could relate to the simmering rage of Thanos, and also relate to lets just kill half of the people (I am going to use the word fridge from now on for it is more fun and it has more relevance to comics), and not even think about what a culling actually means.

You fridge the girl, what does it mean to fridge the girl? ===> Well I am giving green latern an arc, ergo there is this body in the fridge for Green Lantern to discover ===>Wait, wait, wait you just fridge a human being? Once it happens everyone is supposed to forget about it and it becomes a utopia new status quo? So the person in the fridge is thus perfectly expendable and the only thing that matters is the emotions of the person opening the fridge?===>Yes that is the story I want to tell and it is Drama===> And since the Drama sells and people like the Drama===>It must be its own virtue, its own form of good.

Spoilers from infinity war with specific dialogue

Who sits in the Chair Thanos? Who sits in the Chair?

I'm not sure if you're addressing me with any of this, but since you quoted me I'll speak very plainly: I am not on "Team Thanos" and I have yet to see anybody in this thread who is. You can perfectly understand the villain's motivations - whether they are Thanos, Magneto, Yellowjacket, Malekith or whoever - and still conclude that they are wrong.

So if you're not addressing me or anyone else in the thread, I'm not sure who you're talking to at all.

Cheesegear

2018-04-30, 08:00 PM

I'm not sure if you're addressing me with any of this, but since you quoted me I'll speak very plainly: I am not on "Team Thanos" and I have yet to see anybody in this thread who is. You can perfectly understand the villain's motivations - whether they are Thanos, Magneto, Yellowjacket, Malekith or whoever - and still conclude that they are wrong...

Whoa.
Magneto wasn't wrong. Magneto's goal was to make everyone mutants, and force mankind into the next stage of evolution, his ideology stemming straight from his time in Auschwitz.
Magneto (and Otto Octavius) is the most compelling villain that has ever been in the Marvel movies, and he was Fox. Because Fox wasn't trying to sell toys to children.

Magento's goal was never 'kill everyone'. Killing people, was only a result of them standing in his way of his real goal; Forced evolution and the ultimate betterment of mankind. Magneto took a violent stance in the name of protection for all mutants. The government enacted their own powers which enabled them to detain and kill Mutants, based on the fact that the people being detained, were Mutants, and nothing else. Magneto took offense to that. Again, because he's from Auschwitz.

"They want to kill us, Charles. What do you expect me to do?"

Thanos killing people, are because they're in the way, of him killing more people.

Cikomyr

2018-04-30, 08:00 PM

So I argued above that Thanos is marketed to children and teenagers, who have difficulty understanding adult characters.

Here you are claiming not to understand the popularity of a figure who people rank above other villains in the setting.

Very compactly: The MCU is aimed at children and teenagers. Thanos is aimed at and successful with his target audience. Like Voldemort, expecting Thanos to act like an adult is missing the point of the character. Thanos offers a comprehensible and credible threat for teenagers and children.

Attempts to make him smarter and more adult would make him less popular among his target audience. If they would make him more popular with you, you are not his target audience.

I think its less about fearing to make him less popular among his target audience than risking losing its universal appeal. Just because something has a "for children" origin doesn't mean it cannot be toughtful or complex. But it does mean that rationales and motivations have to have some simpler, more base motivations. Thats part of the universal appeal. Someone said that Thanos acted like a 14-year old, i think Thanos's emotional core is actually closer to someone of 9-12 years old.

Superheroes comics and movies dont have to make sense logically, they have to make sense emotionally. They are originally meant as a fullfillment of power fantasies, and refusing that is denying the core of what made these stories great in the first place.

(Thanks MovieBob)

Psyren

2018-04-30, 08:37 PM

Whoa.
Magneto wasn't wrong. Magneto's goal was to make everyone mutants, and force mankind into the next stage of evolution, his ideology stemming straight from his time in Auschwitz.
Magneto (and Otto Octavius) is the most compelling villain that has ever been in the Marvel movies, and he was Fox. Because Fox wasn't trying to sell toys to children.

Magento's goal was never 'kill everyone'. Killing people, was only a result of them standing in his way of his real goal; Forced evolution and the ultimate betterment of mankind. Magneto took a violent stance in the name of protection for all mutants. The government enacted their own powers which enabled them to detain and kill Mutants, based on the fact that the people being detained, were Mutants, and nothing else. Magneto took offense to that. Again, because he's from Auschwitz.

First off, this constant refrain of "toys for children!" is probably intended to sound damning somehow but you should know it really isn't. We got a lot of compelling and iconic stories out of attempts to sell toys to children.

Second, Magneto's goal is indeed not "kill everyone." It's "kill all the humans." Forcing them to either die off or mutate is just a fancier way of achieving that end.

Third, Thanos' goal isn't "kill everyone" either.

Ramza00

2018-04-30, 08:41 PM

thorgrim29

2018-04-30, 08:53 PM

So you're saying we should all go back and delete half of our posts to preserve the future of the thread?

Ramza00

2018-04-30, 09:17 PM

So you're saying we should all go back and delete half of our posts to preserve the future of the thread?

Based off the physics I know an ever-expanding universe may have problems due to entropy problems (we honestly do not know, the best math people still haven't figured out), but black holes are not scary due to Hawking radiation (so says the math guys), so thus my star trek (or is it doctor who) knowledge taught me is we just need to reverse the polarity of the entire system. To the deflector dish Mr. Worf!

Or put another way.

https://img.fireden.net/vg/image/1455/11/1455115217487.gif

https://willthethrillonthebeach.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/img_0588.gif

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/65420359/i-love-this-plan-im-excited-to-be-a-part-of-it-lets-do-it.jpg

And since video is better than pictures.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OOF0FpKiYk

The Glyphstone

2018-04-30, 09:18 PM

Ramza00

2018-04-30, 09:26 PM

All the talk about Thanos having the motivations of a teenager makes me wonder if that might not literally be the case. If Thanos was a teenager, or his species' equivalent, when he came up with his plan to preserve his homeworld, it'd make even more sense for the rulers to reject it (in addition to the 'holy crap genocide no' factor). Teen Thanos never forgets this rejection, even when he matures. When Adult Thanos sees that Teen Thanos's prediction was exactly right, he decides that Teen Thanos's solution was also right, and plot happens.

I guess we will find out on Nov 20th when Thanos backstory is revealed in Avengers: Infinity War: Thanos—Titan Consumed.

But yeah it would be so much dramatic irony if this turns out to be true. Still does not make what Thanos does right, but it would be ironic for everyone died on Titan (more or less somehow Thanos survived and maybe others survived) and now half of the universe has to die for the Titan with Trauma has issues and an infinity gauntlet.

Psyren

2018-04-30, 09:49 PM

Psyren, I never quoted you, so now I am confused for I think you are confusing me with someone else in this thread but I never quoted you. Aka maybe this thread has reached the infinity point and now it is harder to track specific details and where the originated as this thread moves towards chaos and entropy :smallbiggrin::smallsigh:

Err... am I imagining post #215 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23035868&postcount=215) then? :smallconfused:

Ramza00

2018-04-30, 10:03 PM

Err... am I imagining post #215 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23035868&postcount=215) then? :smallconfused:

Hey I thought I searched correctly with the find tool for your username. Is me watching westworld now having a feedback and impacting me in reality *EEK*.

Olinser

2018-04-30, 10:23 PM

Velaryon

2018-04-30, 10:24 PM

Okay, late to the party because I didn't see the film until Sunday and didn't have time to make my post last night.

So... that ending. It was clear going in that something like that was going to happen, but when it actually does, it's still feels huge.

I haven't seen a crowd so stunned into silence since the Undertaker lost at Wrestlemania 30. When the credits started to roll, you could hear every cough, every shuffle of feet in the theater I was in.

Just in case, I'll spoiler my specific thoughts on the film.

Overall I enjoyed it. It isn't my favorite MCU film by a long shot, but we've been waiting for this for years and I did not feel disappointed. They had to keep a lot of balls in the air for this one, and for the most part they managed it.

I would have liked to see Vision actually get to do something in this film, rather than looking like a total chump. That's probably my biggest complaint in the whole film.

Scarlet Witch also seemed a little underwhelming... mostly because her powers seem poorly defined to me. It seems though that ever since she joined the Avengers she does nothing but pure blasting. Whatever happened to the mindscrewing stuff she was able to do before her face turn in Age of Ultron?

Doctor Strange also felt like he had kid gloves on, but at least that can presumably be attributed to his knowing what exactly needs to happen for Thanos to be defeated, and acting in service of that. Still, I will echo those who said earlier that it was less than satisfying that he didn't even try to use the Time Stone, no matter how much sense it may have made.

I doubt anything can be popular to "everyone." Luckily that's not the standard for success. There will always be naysayers.

As for Adam Warlock, yeah he's been set up (GotG2 stinger.)

It could be a red herring, but James Gunn confirmed some time ago that Adam Warlock will not be appearing (https://twitter.com/jamesgunn/status/887129739843981312?lang=en) in the whole Infinity Gauntlet thing (which is unfortunate because I was really looking forward to that). Apparently the studio was less than thrilled at his including that Easter egg because of the expectations it creates, so he had to make the statement.

If Gunn was J.J. Abrams, I would basically take this as confirmation that the character will be in the next film, but I AFAIK Gunn doesn't have a reputation for trying to intentionally mislead fans like that.

Magneto (and Otto Octavius) is the most compelling villain that has ever been in the Marvel movies, and he was Fox. Because Fox wasn't trying to sell toys to children.

Are (https://www.amazon.com/X-Men-Movie-Action-Figures-Magneto/dp/B00004TFLH) you (https://www.amazon.com/X-Men-Movie-Sabretooth-action-figure-Toy/dp/B00004TFLR) sure (https://www.amazon.com/Marsden-Cyclops-Action-Light-up-Trapped/dp/B0013FQOKQ/ref=pd_sim_21_3?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B0013FQOKQ&pd_rd_r=YQVWK2GJRX8PECYQJZ5S&pd_rd_w=Ivqzm&pd_rd_wg=189Em&psc=1&refRID=YQVWK2GJRX8PECYQJZ5S) about (https://www.amazon.com/X-MEN-MOVIE-WOLVERINE-ACTION-FIGURE/dp/B0021Z0DFO/ref=pd_sim_21_6?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B0021Z0DFO&pd_rd_r=YQVWK2GJRX8PECYQJZ5S&pd_rd_w=Ivqzm&pd_rd_wg=189Em&psc=1&refRID=YQVWK2GJRX8PECYQJZ5S) that (https://www.amazon.com/Mystique-Romijn-Stamos-Action-Figure/dp/B00004TFLU)? Admittedly, everything I'm finding seems to have been tied to the very first film, but I also haven't looked very hard.

Psyren

2018-04-30, 10:41 PM

My main problem with Thanos' whole evil plot was just how stupid and short-sighted it was.

I mean, OK,

So you're going to kill half the galaxy's population so the other half don't starve or fight for resources. OK, that makes some amount of logical sense.

The stupidity comes in when you ask, "OK, what happens in 50-100 years after they repopulate the galaxy to the level its at now?"

Simply killing half the population is idiotic. When resources are abundant (as is his ENTIRE GOAL), humanity on Earth as doubled its population in the last 50 years.

Is Thanos going to do it again in 50-100 years? And again after that? It's just an idiotic plan that doesn't even accomplish his alleged goal.

My understanding was that he'll just appoint himself galactic overlord and do it as often as it takes for people to, well, stop breeding like Rockets or whatever. It's not like it would be hard, he wouldn't even have to get out of his chair. And he certainly has the ego to think he's right for the job.

In short, rather than wanting to bang Death (comics) he seems to want to become it. Still crazy, but there's a train to kind of follow beyond what's in his pants, and fewer characters/worldbuilding to set up.

Given that Gamora's planet is more or less a microcosm of his vision, it would be interesting to see how they're getting along now.

theNater

2018-05-01, 12:24 AM

Some thoughts.
Does the plan make more sense if we think of him like a pseudoscientist trying to prove his personal theory? Like, he's trying to prove that his plan would have saved Titan if they'd only done it? That would explain why using the gauntlet to produce more resources wouldn't be satisfactory; that wasn't an option back in the day.
My instinct was to assume Hulk wasn't coming out because he's mad at Bruce for using him. No actual evidence, but that makes more sense to me than "Hulk scared".

Anteros

2018-05-01, 01:18 AM

My understanding was that he'll just appoint himself galactic overlord and do it as often as it takes for people to, well, stop breeding like Rockets or whatever. It's not like it would be hard, he wouldn't even have to get out of his chair. And he certainly has the ego to think he's right for the job.

Seems unlikely since using the stones one time wrecked his gauntlet and possibly even his arm. Any plan based on repeated uses of the stones to maintain order seems short-sighted.

Then again, he's portrayed as an abject idiot, so it may indeed be his plan.

Psyren

2018-05-01, 02:37 AM

Seems unlikely since using the stones one time wrecked his gauntlet and possibly even his arm. Any plan based on repeated uses of the stones to maintain order seems short-sighted.

You're assuming he (or indeed, anyone) knew that would happen in advance.

My instinct was to assume Hulk wasn't coming out because he's mad at Bruce for using him. No actual evidence, but that makes more sense to me than "Hulk scared".

I guess the fear thing makes sense to me because Hulk reminds me of characters who are so tough (and childlike) they're unused to really feeling pain at all, like Mad Pierrot from Cowboy Bebop.

Anteros

2018-05-01, 03:56 AM

You're assuming he (or indeed, anyone) knew that would happen in advance.

Well, he certainly doesn't act like someone who just discovered an enormous flaw in his plans afterwards. He thinks he's won. Which wouldn't be the case if the theory about him planning to repeat things every so often were correct.

Swaoeaeieu

2018-05-01, 04:54 AM

i dont think i have to put this into spoilers but i will just to be sure:
Boy howdy! This movie wasnt just a long one, it even felt long to me. Sure, maybe its because my theatre didnt have a break in the middle, wich i would have apreciated just to deflate a bit. But there was SO MUCH STUFF to jam into two and a half hours and even then i felt like a lot of stuff was cut out, some of it felt rushed to me. For one the fight on Titan was so cool just that could have laster 30 minutes in my opinion.

I just can't wait for the second part to be out as well, and then watching the full directors cut in one big marathon. Preferably WITHOUT NOISY PEOPLE CHECKING THEIR PHONE NEXT TO ME IN THE THEATRE (sorry, that happend last night, still miffed about it :P )

Lvl45DM!

2018-05-01, 04:56 AM

Thanos thinks he has proven his point and therefore everything will be good from now on. Because it has worked every time he's done it in the past.
He kills rather than increases resources, because it has worked every time he's done it in the past.

Darth Ultron

2018-05-01, 06:58 AM

Avengers: Infinity War’s big bad Thanos is getting his own origin story
Caveat: you have to read a book
https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/16/17243794/avengers-infinity-wars-thanos-origin-story-marvel

That is great! Too bad that they did not work it in to ''phase 2'' or whatever and make it a movie. Not only would a Thanos movie sell as it is a Thanos movie, but you also could have gotten the sweet tie in money as ''everyone'' would feel they ''need'' to see the movie before Infinity War.

I think its less about fearing to make him less popular among his target audience than risking losing its universal appeal. Just because something has a "for children" origin doesn't mean it cannot be toughtful or complex. But it does mean that rationales and motivations have to have some simpler, more base motivations. Thats part of the universal appeal. Someone said that Thanos acted like a 14-year old, i think Thanos's emotional core is actually closer to someone of 9-12 years old.

Unfortunately super heroes are mostly for kidz. It's the same stigma that Fantasy and Sci-Fi gets: It's all dumb kidz stuff.

In the comic the plan was to set up Death Temples on every planet to kill off the extra population and keep the growth numbers down. And Thanos wanted lots of growth....to feed the temples and worship Death.

You're assuming he (or indeed, anyone) knew that would happen in advance.

Well, the Time Gem/Stone does have this ability.

And this is in fact right out of the comics, when Thanos sees the future and can't change it...

Cikomyr

2018-05-01, 07:11 AM

Unfortunately super heroes are mostly for kidz. It's the same stigma that Fantasy and Sci-Fi gets: It's all dumb kidz stuff.

"For Kids" does not mean "Dumb".

The problem with Dumb Kids Stuff not the "Kid" part. Its the Dumb part. Like many mass-produced contents, a big deal of it is stupid. But dont claim that entertainment for adults doesnt also have a big deal of it being stupid.

MCU movies have, for the most part, been smart kid movies. Most of the non-Liefeld comic books that have read have also been smart kid products.

Psyren

2018-05-01, 08:31 AM

Well, he certainly doesn't act like someone who just discovered an enormous flaw in his plans afterwards. He thinks he's won. Which wouldn't be the case if the theory about him planning to repeat things every so often were correct.

And why shouldn't he feel that way? By the time he'll need to prune again, he can have another Gauntlet made. It doesn't seem like much of a setback to me, not when he's been working on this for decades if not centuries (never mind how long it took for the galaxy as a whole to get to whatever he sees as a point of excess.)

Hell, he's probaby already thinking along the lines of "the next Gauntlet won't get damaged when I use it."

Anteros

2018-05-01, 08:39 AM

And why shouldn't he feel that way? By the time he'll need to prune again, he can have another Gauntlet made. It doesn't seem like much of a setback to me, not when he's been working on this for decades if not centuries (never mind how long it took for the galaxy as a whole to get to whatever he sees as a point of excess.)

Hell, he's probaby already thinking along the lines of "the next Gauntlet won't get damaged when I use it."

As far as he knows the dwarves are all dead except the one he crippled so that he couldn't forge anymore, and the forge itself is shut down forever.

It's a lot more believable to me that this step of his plan was just as stupid as the rest of it. He's delusional. He thinks people are going to see the wisdom in what he did and thank him for it. He's not planning on having to repeat things over and over because his delusion is so strong that he doesn't understand that people will just repopulate in a short amount of time.

Chen

2018-05-01, 08:47 AM

So the opening weekend destroyed other opening weekend box office records (can't link to box office mojo here at work). It's worldwide gross this weekend looks like it was only a few million short of the entire box office gross for Justice League, which is pretty funny. From what I can see its the first film to break $250 million in it's opening weekend too. I guess that's not unexpected for this movie that the whole MCU has been hyping up for the last 10 years or so.

Psyren

2018-05-01, 09:57 AM

As far as he knows the dwarves are all dead except the one he crippled so that he couldn't forge anymore, and the forge itself is shut down forever.

Even if that specific method is literally the only possible way, ever, to make/repair one, you're talking about (a) a dude who can control reality and time, and (b) decades/centuries to devote to the problem.

It's a lot more believable to me that this step of his plan was just as stupid as the rest of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

Cikomyr

2018-05-01, 10:10 AM

Why does everyone assumes the Infinity Gauntlet can resolve Entropy/Resource Finity in the universe?

The movie clearly shown that it had limits to its powers

Devonix

2018-05-01, 10:52 AM

This movie really is shaping up to be the anti Last Jedi. I am seeing reviews start to shift downwards in a mixed reception in comparison to the audience scores in a way mirroring last Jedi.

Cheesegear

2018-05-01, 12:38 PM

This movie really is shaping up to be the anti Last Jedi. I am seeing reviews start to shift downwards in a mixed reception in comparison to the audience scores in a way mirroring last Jedi.

It's because the audience that saw it on release, were probably going to like it anyway. That's generally why pre-sales, and opening weekend reviews are generally always positive. Why see it opening weekend, if you probably don't want to see it?
Contrast to the middle of the next week, where people are like 'Eh, I'll see it soon.' because they're not emotionally invested enough to see it the day it comes out.

So of course people who see it on opening night, or through Advanced Screenings are going to love it.
People who don't love the movie before it's even come out, or people who saw the trailer and went 'Yeah, looks alright...' are going to have mixed feeling about it.

'Anti-Last Jedi' would actually mean that opening reviews were weak, and audiences who saw it later, loved it.

Devonix

2018-05-01, 01:20 PM

It's because the audience that saw it on release, were probably going to like it anyway. That's generally why pre-sales, and opening weekend reviews are generally always positive. Why see it opening weekend, if you probably don't want to see it?
Contrast to the middle of the next week, where people are like 'Eh, I'll see it soon.' because they're not emotionally invested enough to see it the day it comes out.

So of course people who see it on opening night, or through Advanced Screenings are going to love it.
People who don't love the movie before it's even come out, or people who saw the trailer and went 'Yeah, looks alright...' are going to have mixed feeling about it.

'Anti-Last Jedi' would actually mean that opening reviews were weak, and audiences who saw it later, loved it.

I'm more comparing critical to audience reception. But yeah too soon.

Ramza00

2018-05-01, 01:31 PM

This is not Avengers 3: Infinity War it is instead Avengers 3: Perception War!

Especially since only one person saw the possible futures in this movie, he did not tell anybody the plan, and now the person who knows the plan is dead, literally dust in the wind.

So not an infinity war, no ...

https://image.ibb.co/dzRdDn/29g3w6.jpg

'Anti-Last Jedi' would actually mean that opening reviews were weak, and audiences who saw it later, loved it.

Actuallizing the previous person who Actually. :smallwink: Maybe we should not get into a language specificity, accuracy, and precision contest :smalltongue:

There are multiple definitions of anti, the reverse definition of anti instead of other definitions ...(such as contrasting to, opposing to, hostile to, etc) is actually a more recent definition, reverse is a merely a new meaning of the anti prefix and does not negate the old meaning prefixes.

Oh please tell me Thanos is going to use a snap of his fingers to end grammar and vocabulary wars :smallbiggrin:

JadedDM

2018-05-01, 01:58 PM

Oh please tell me Thanos is going to use a snap of his fingers to end grammar and vocabulary wars :smallbiggrin:

Yes, but only 50% of them. :smalltongue:

Devonix

2018-05-01, 02:02 PM

Yes, but only 50% of them. :smalltongue:

All of my love

Dr.Samurai

2018-05-01, 02:14 PM

I saw it this weekend. So... I agree with the sentiment others have mentioned that Thanos' plan is overly simplistic in its explanation. It doesn't really seem to make sense on its face. Thanos has no way to discriminate, from what we can tell, how this calculus works. It just annihilates half of the universe's population. I think we can all agree that this is hardly a precise and fool-proof method to achieve his goals. I wanted very much to buy into the idea that Thanos really believes in his plan and truly wants to bring about harmony and stability to the universe. But it is sort of silly to see him sitting down watching the sunrise, a scene that is supposed to convey that he has accomplished his goal, when all he did was kill trillions of people.

This hardly guarantees the type of paradise and harmony that he seems to want for everyone.

I would have much preferred if Thanos ruled the universe or galaxy or whatever with an iron fist. Like a true tyrant. One with the power of the Infinity Stones. With that power, he could bring about whatever universe he wanted. Killing half the universe is just purely arbitrary and doesn't really make sense with what he wants. He could conquer immediately and have everyone bowing down to him and pledging fealty to avoid being annihilated. He could actually create a true universal utopia, except it's authoritarian and tyrannical and not free. Everyone plays along because of fear. And the Avengers and everyone else would oppose him and overthrow him because it wouldn't be free.

But the "if I kill half of all populations, everything will be wonderful" is silly and doesn't seem to be justified ever in the movies. I mean... I know he mentions Gamora"s planet but it doesn't really track. I mean... there was a time when her planet wasn't overpopulated. Killing half the people doesn't remove the factors that led down that path. It just sort of resets it. How does that do anything? Ok, so in the two decades since he took Gamora in, they're not experiencing resource strain because half of their population got murdered. Are we supposed to assume that they will simply never overpopulate again? Why?

Apart from that, there was a little redundancy between Gamora asking Quill to kill her so that Thanos can't get the Soul Stone, and Vision asking Wanda to kill him so that Thanos can't get the Mind Stone, and a little differently in Dr. Strange assuring Tony that he will let both Tony and Spider-Man die to keep Thanos from getting the Time Stone. All of these conversations make sense, but seeing them back to back to back makes it lose some of its impact, which was probably bound to happen in a movie with this many characters.

Tony's new suit is awesome. Peter's new suit is awesome. I was super excited when Cap and Co showed up to save Vision and Wanda, though I did feel the two strongest characters on the Avengers were suspiciously underpowered against Thanos' thugs. So that was kind of a weird fight to watch. As excited as I was to see Cap, it was weird that the three humans with no powers just saved Wanda and Vision from a duo of super-powered aliens. But I'm still glad that it happened :smallbiggrin:.

Speaking of underpowered overpowered characters, I'm not sure what the purpose of shackling the Hulk was. Is it because he's pretty one-dimensional and too strong in what he does? I think I see the story-reasons; he's scared? But what was the meta reason? Similarly, Strange was toned down quite a bit. This however makes sense because he saw the future. Still, the pathway forward should have involved a little more uber magic being slung around, for meta reasons. Come on, we want to see the Sorcerer Supreme in action!

I can't comment on the movie in total because, full disclosure, I actually fell asleep during the huge end battle in Wakanda. I woke up to Wanda destroying the Mind Stone and I was like "Oh damn, that sucks". Then Thanos shows up and reverses time. Then Thor impales him with the axe and Thanos snaps his fingers. When Bucky showed up and vanished I was like "Hmm... I missed something important", but then I realized it was the snap of the fingers and Thanos had enacted his plan. But I did miss the whole fight and some other bits (the conversation before he threw Gamora over the cliff, and the relighting the forge scene). So I've got to watch it again to really get my proper thoughts on it. (I was exhausted this weekend and tried hard to stay awake but I just couldn't muster it!)