Incarnum Guide Question

[AnimeTheCat]

So I've been reading "Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?215723-Incarnum-and-YOU-a-reference-guide)" and in quite a few places it mentions taking bonus essentia at levels 1 or 3 but the prerequisite for that feat is character level 6. Am I missing an eratta or something or is the guide itself wrong? I want to be certain before offering it as a reliable source to some of my players. If I have to say "look at this guide, just know it has XYZ wrong with it" then it's really not worth it to mention to them and I'll just come up with a cheat sheet/guide for them myself.

[umbergod]

So I've been reading "Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?215723-Incarnum-and-YOU-a-reference-guide)" and in quite a few places it mentions taking bonus essentia at levels 1 or 3 but the prerequisite for that feat is character level 6. Am I missing an eratta or something or is the guide itself wrong? I want to be certain before offering it as a reliable source to some of my players. If I have to say "look at this guide, just know it has XYZ wrong with it" then it's really not worth it to mention to them and I'll just come up with a cheat sheet/guide for them myself.

I just perused that guide and i didnt find a single instance of the feat Bonus Essentia as being taken at 1st or 3rd level, can you pin-point where it was said?

[AnimeTheCat]

I just perused that guide and i didnt find a single instance of the feat Bonus Essentia as being taken at 1st or 3rd level, can you pin-point where it was said?

Sure.


Incarnum2/Fighter18 has one bind (crown), 2 essentia, and 3 melds. Before spending feats. So blow 1st and 3rd feats on either Bonus Essentia or Shape Soulmeld and you've beaten the Soulborn at everything, with the sacrifice of a single point of BAB.

If he actually developed some meldshaping worth bothering with, it would've been a very nice class. Unfortunately, that never happened. DO NOT take this class. No, not even then.


Entry is bog-standard Cleric3/Incarnum3 without early entry shenanigans. However, it's really easy to go Incarnum2 (with Bonus Essentia feat)/Cleric1 (typical early entry shenanigans to be considered as having a 2nd level divine spell) since the skill requirements are only 4 ranks.

So, I guess not the "quite a few" places i had said, but in those two places the intent is clear that the guide is saying that you should take Bonus Essentia as a feat within your first three character levels.

[umbergod]

Sure.





So, I guess not the "quite a few" places i had said, but in those two places the intent is clear that the guide is saying that you should take Bonus Essentia as a feat within your first three character levels.

Ahhhh, thats what i get for skipping the class specifics. I wasn't able to find any errata that'd support the guide's suggestions, so your hunch that its wrong looks to be correct

[AnimeTheCat]

Ahhhh, thats what i get for skipping the class specifics. I wasn't able to find any errata that'd support the guide's suggestions, so your hunch that its wrong looks to be correct

Really I wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy or something. Seems like I've been losing my mind lately. I may just copy that into a word doc and change the bits that need changing before giving it to my players. All in all it really is quite informative, even if I don't personally agree with all of the content.

[Falontani]

Bonus feats do not need to meet prerequisites unless the place they are getting the bonus feat states that it does. AFB for the moment, but you could probably check those instances and see if it is a bonus feat that is granting it

[AnimeTheCat]

Bonus feats do not need to meet prerequisites unless the place they are getting the bonus feat states that it does. AFB for the moment, but you could probably check those instances and see if it is a bonus feat that is granting it

No, it's literally the feat called "Bonus Essentia" on page 35. Also the soulborn bonus feat class feature requires you to have the prerequisites.

[umbergod]

Bonus feats do not need to meet prerequisites unless the place they are getting the bonus feat states that it does. AFB for the moment, but you could probably check those instances and see if it is a bonus feat that is granting it

What AnimeTheCat said, given that the guide says to use 1st and/or 3rd level feats to nab the feat in question

[Venger]

you are correct, but that's the only mistake in there. it's still a good guide to use to get players familiar with incarnum, so you shouldn't discount it, just make sure they're aware of this.

[Troacctid]

There's another mistake too: it says Soulborn can take Shape Soulmeld or Open Foo Chakra as bonus feats, which is incorrect.

But it's still a good explanation of the mechanics.

[Andor13]

It's a good overview. And he's right, Incarnate and Totemist are the gems of the book. God I love Totemists.

The only problem with the Incarnate was that it came out while they were trying to tie everything into the minis game / minis handbook which is plain from how the Incarnate/Soulborn alignment stuff aligns exactly the Minis handbook alignment organization. The minis game is long since dead, but the Incarnate stumbles on.

[The Viscount]

It's a good overview. And he's right, Incarnate and Totemist are the gems of the book. God I love Totemists.

The only problem with the Incarnate was that it came out while they were trying to tie everything into the minis game / minis handbook which is plain from how the Incarnate/Soulborn alignment stuff aligns exactly the Minis handbook alignment organization. The minis game is long since dead, but the Incarnate stumbles on.

They were trying to tie in MoI with a book that came out 2 years earlier? I find it a little hard to believe anything was trying to tie into miniatures handbook since they reprinted 2 of its 4 base classes in other books, and rehashed Marshal with Dragon Shaman.

As for alignment stuff aligning exactly with the Miniatures handbook, are you talking about the factions? I'm not seeing a connection besides the fact that the factions are the 4 extreme alignments, which soulborn must be one of. But what's the link to Incarnates?

[Andor13]

As for alignment stuff aligning exactly with the Miniatures handbook, are you talking about the factions? I'm not seeing a connection besides the fact that the factions are the 4 extreme alignments, which soulborn must be one of. But what's the link to Incarnates?

It's in the alignment restrictions on the class, and in how that alignment influences some of their key soulmelds. Incarnate weapon and Incarnate Avatar spring to mind. The powers line up exactly with the minis build principles. Good gets AC, Evil gets damage and speed, Law gets to hit, etc. It's not overwhelming stuff, but it's there.

[KillianHawkeye]

Bonus feats do not need to meet prerequisites unless the place they are getting the bonus feat states that it does.

I'm pretty sure this is false, and there is no general exception to the normal prerequisites for bonus feats. Monks get a pass for their bonus feats, and Rangers get treated as if they have the feats related to their Fighting Style even if they don't meet the prerequisites, while Fighters and Wizards explicitly must meet the prerequisites for Fighter and Wizard bonus feats.

All the core classes that gain bonus feats as class features say whether or not they must meet prerequisites, which makes it pretty obvious that there isn't a general rule at all. And without such an exemption, bonus feats must obey the general requirement of all feats that you must meet any prerequisites before you take them unless noted otherwise.

[Troacctid]

I'm pretty sure this is false, and there is no general exception to the normal prerequisites for bonus feats. Monks get a pass for their bonus feats, and Rangers get treated as if they have the feats related to their Fighting Style even if they don't meet the prerequisites, while Fighters and Wizards explicitly must meet the prerequisites for Fighter and Wizard bonus feats.

All the core classes that gain bonus feats as class features say whether or not they must meet prerequisites, which makes it pretty obvious that there isn't a general rule at all. And without such an exemption, bonus feats must obey the general requirement of all feats that you must meet any prerequisites before you take them unless noted otherwise.
You are correct. This is a common misconception that comes up a lot, thanks to the rule in the Monster Manual about how to read bonus feats in monster statblocks, which says they ignore prerequisites, but is limited to that specific case (feats marked with a B in an NPC statblock).