Handy Haversack and RAW

[Guinea Anubis]

So by RAW it shoulds like you can stick a portable hole in a Haversack and not have the bad things happen when you stick a PH in to a bag of holding.


If this right?

[Citizen Joe]

Yes. The exploding bag of holding/portable hole thing is a throwback to E.Gary Gygax which I think was a HORRIBLE off the cuff ruling, likely made in the spur of the moment to punish some powergamer. Somehow it got into canon and now everyone thinks every extradimensional space is a hand grenade.

[Dausuul]

Yes. The exploding bag of holding/portable hole thing is a throwback to E.Gary Gygax which I think was a HORRIBLE off the cuff ruling, likely made in the spur of the moment to punish some powergamer. Somehow it got into canon and now everyone thinks every extradimensional space is a hand grenade.

I kind of like the "extradimensional spaces inside other extradimensional spaces explode" idea, but if D&D is going to keep it, it should be a general rule, not something specific to portable holes and bags of holding. If it's not going to apply generally, it ought to go away.

[Ashtar]

I house rule that sticking one permanent portable dimension into another permanent portable dimension causes both to be damaged and inoperable.

But taking a bag of holding into a mordenkainen's masion or a rope trick is fine (1: it's temporary, 2: they are non permanent, 3: they don't move).

Apart from that, a handy haversack is one of my favorite magical items. I just love it, when I play a character, I try to get one as soon as possible and stock it full with useful / useless stuff like spades, scroll cases, spare clothes (so that your royal quality clothes are always safe and dry!), food rations, rope, arrowheads, door spikes, oil. I am also very careful to count the weight of each item.

[Kurald Galain]

And poor Heward has nothing to do all week but create Yet More handy haversacks for his Adventuring Supplies Market...

[Solo]

He patented the idea and lived comfortably off royalties.... from what I hear.

[UserClone]

But taking a bag of holding into a mordenkainen's masion or a rope trick is fine (1: it's temporary, 2: they are non permanent, 3: they don't move).Actually, I'm pretty sure that the Rope Trick spell description specifically mentions that bad things will happen to you if you take an extradimensional space into it.

[Dausuul]

Actually, I'm pretty sure that the Rope Trick spell description specifically mentions that bad things will happen to you if you take an extradimensional space into it.

It says it's hazardous but gives no details.

[UserClone]

It says to "remember the hazards," and any silly ass who's ever shoved a portable hole into a bag of holding knows what the spell is talking about. You are choosing not to know to what the spell description is referring.

[Citizen Joe]

There's a WotC article where the talk about it and the guy basically says ignore it.

There's something about spells not being able to cross the boundary. To that end a bag of holding shouldn't function inside a rope trick since it can't access its extradimensional space while inside the extradimensional space of the rope trick. I hope 4.0 addresses all xDim spaces in a uniform manner rather then giving out PH/BoH singularity grenades.

[Ulzgoroth]

It says, exactly:

Note: It is hazardous to create an extradimensional
space within an existing
extradimensional space or to take an extradimensional
space into an existing one.
Nothing else.

It also should be noted, if you're really eager to carry on with that, that a bag of holding is a non-dimensional space rather than an extradimensional space. There is no example of the hazards of overlapping extradimensional spaces.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

It says to "remember the hazards," and any silly ass who's ever shoved a portable hole into a bag of holding knows what the spell is talking about. You are choosing not to know to what the spell description is referring.
And anyone who's shoved a bag of holding into a portable hole knows that the effect differs from doing it the other way around. So, if taking such an item into a rope trick replicates one of those hazards, which do we use?

There is absolutely no consistency, and the effects of placing a portable hole into a bag of holding or vice versa only mention those specific items/effects, despite the number of other extradimensional spaces—handy haversacks, quivers of Elhonna, rope tricks, magnificent mansions, etc.—so we really can't draw any useful conclusions about any other combinations.

As to the article mentioned by Citizen Joe: "Rules of the Game: Carrying Things (Part Three)" (http://64.223.12.31/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20051101a)

[Dausuul]

It says to "remember the hazards," and any silly ass who's ever shoved a portable hole into a bag of holding knows what the spell is talking about. You are choosing not to know to what the spell description is referring.

Okay, then, what is the hazard? Is it what happens when you put a bag of holding into a portable hole? Or is it what happens when you put a portable hole into a bag of holding? They're two quite different effects, you know. The first one just destroys them both with their contents, while the second opens a 10-foot-radius rift to the Astral Plane.

Edit: Dang ninjas.

[SilverClawShift]

If it's not going to apply generally, it ought to go away.

I LOVE the rule itself, but I'm biased. It saved my life and kept one of my more beloved characters from drifting in an eternity of black nothingness.



The first one just destroys them both with their contents, while the second opens a 10-foot-radius rift to the Astral Plane.


Yeah, Exactly :smallbiggrin:

[Citizen Joe]

Okay, then, what is the hazard?

The hazard is that you incur the wrath of the DM and/or pique the curiosity of the Rules Lawyer or poke the Munchkin.

[GimliFett]

We've always gone with the ruling of you can't access extra-/non- dimensional pockets while within extra-/non- dimensional area. So if you need something outta your bag of holding or haversack while you're in the rope trick, have it out when you enter...

[Hawriel]

I just think the whole thing is dumb.

who really is going to fill a portabal whole with bags of holding filled with bags of holding filled with gold. or put in a castle in that set up one brick at a time. and if some one tried all a GM would have to do is say 'ok do you have 100 bags of holding? and if they did 'it will take you this long to do it' or just say 'no you cant'

Like every one els who had a portable hole in the party mine have used it as a magic workshop, a forge, an armory, a home, and what ever els. It doesnt really matter so like some one said above. just ignore the rule. besides there are alot of items like this. belt of many pouches, bracers that can hold any weapon. a scabard that can hold any weapon. and if you have even one of these items and get near a dementional effect you go poof. like demention door or rope trick.

My opinion just ignore the book. Or at least make a ruling when some one is trying to be powergamer.

[Draz74]

who really is going to fill a portabal whole with bags of holding filled with bags of holding filled with gold.

:haley: You called?

[Crazy_Uncle_Doug]

I enjoy the whole concept of "never put an extradimensional space in an extradimensional space" as well, but the rules really are too inconsistent to implement as written. My idea would be a slight variation on that rule:


Never Seek to Access an Extradimensional Space Within an Extradimensional Space.

Thus, there's less concern about bringing one's Bag of Holding into the top space of a Rope Trick, or into Leomund's Tiny Hut. However, opening a Bag of Holding or a Handy Haversack within those spaces can be disasterous. The Portable Hole, since it is technically "always accessible" would always cause a problem placed in a Bag of Holding or a Haversack. If it is in an ordinary container that is sealed, however, that issue can be avoided when entering an extradimensional space.

Since such spaces are of the supernatural, most wouldn't know this basic rule off hand. I'd say a Spellcraft or Knowledge (Arcana) roll of Difficulty 20 would yield that basic safety warning.

Lastly, though exploding is fun, it's more fun to create a bunch of effects that can be chosen or randomized so players who accidentally or intentionally break this rule will never really know what they get. Some ideas I have:


Explosion. Deals damage to those nearby. Objects in extradimensional space destroyed.
Inoperable. The bag one is trying to access fails to function magically. Opening reveals a bag containing the last item placed in it (that can fit in that bag were it ordinary).
Misdirect. The bag opened accesses some other bag's contents. Until removed from present extradimensional space, those contents are all one can get. Once out, the previous contents are restored.
Swap. The bag opened switches contents with another bag's. Hopefully you'll get another adventurer's stuff, and not access the bag donated to peasants by a paladin and used to store turnips.
Gate. The opening of the extradimensional space becomes a temporary gate to another plane. There's a chance a resident of said plane decides to investigate this new portal. Better hope he's friendly. Or weak.
Paradox. Opening the bag reveals a small group of people, looking inside an opened bag which contains a smaller group looking inside a smaller opened bag ... It'd be advisable neither to look up, nor to try to grab one of the small people.
Nothing. Boring.
Dump. All the contents of the space are dumped out unceremoniously all over the place. If it is a bag in a bag, the original bag may become over-full and dump things on the floor. It it's a bag in a Rope Trick space or similar, all the contents fall out.
Garbage Disposal. All the contents are dumped into the belly of a random critter. ("Martha? How did this +2 Bastard Sword, Demon Bane get into ol' Bessy here?")


I'm sure there's a lot of other weird things. Best to go nuts and have fun.

[Fax Celestis]

Actually, since the Handy Haversack says it "holds items like a Bag of Holding", and putting a Bag of Holding in a Portable Hole causes planar doom, a Handy Haversack does it too.

[Mad Wizard]

Is it just me, or is it possible to put bags of holding inside each other? I don't see any rule against it looking at the bag of holding description.

[Chronos]

Back in 2nd edition, any overlap of extradimensional spaces (including Rope Tricks, Mordenkainen's Mansion, Heward's Handy Haversack, and anything else) explicitly caused dire consequences (I think there was a random element to what exactly happened, but it was always bad). There was a general rule saying this applied to all such spaces, and then every relevant spell or item also contained a reminder of the general rule. It looks like what happened in 3rd was that the folks who wrote/adapted the description for Rope Trick remembered to include the warning, and the folks who did the Portable Hole and Bag of Holding included the rule in its entirety, but the general rule got left out.

[Jack Mann]

Feh. Stacking bags of holding or portable holes is hardly abusive. By the time you can afford that, there's going to be someone in the group who can carry that much. I don't see that the consequences really add anything to the game.

[TheOOB]

It's primarily a flavor thing I usually ignore. Bags of holding get remarkably little use in my group. They are quite cumbersome and expensive for what they hold, and a portable hole has far more utility. Hewards Handy Haversack works just fine until you get a portable hole, and it doesn't blow up when you take it inside of one (or visa-versa).

[horseboy]

Poke the Munchkin.
I can't tell if that should be something lude or the next game show to come from Japan.

[Crazy_Uncle_Doug]

True. It's hard to abuse these things. Mostly because I've rarely been in a group that's worried much about encumberance, let alone volume. Most published character sheets have little room for itemized encumberance calculations. Moreover, though bags supposedly have specific volumes per type, few people even bother with volume. Thus we have a situation like many games have nowadays, where a dragon's head takes the same volume as ten bottles of Cure Light Wounds, which takes the same volume as a dagger, which incidently is the same volume as a sword. For the win!

[technophile]

Moreover, though bags supposedly have specific volumes per type, few people even bother with volume. Thus we have a situation like many games have nowadays, where a dragon's head takes the same volume as ten bottles of Cure Light Wounds, which takes the same volume as a dagger, which incidently is the same volume as a sword. For the win!
Well, it's not like the PHB (or most other sources) provide volume information. Do you know offhand how much volume a pound of soap takes up? A pint of oil? A kukri? A hooded lantern?

I don't, and rather than spend hours coming up with detailed rules, it's easier and more fun to just ignore volume entirely.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Moreover, though bags supposedly have specific volumes per type, few people even bother with volume. Thus we have a situation like many games have nowadays, where a dragon's head takes the same volume as ten bottles of Cure Light Wounds, which takes the same volume as a dagger, which incidently is the same volume as a sword. For the win!
Well, whereas most items have listed weights, none have listed volumes. There are some items with easy to calculate volumes—10 ft. long, 1 in. diameter poles; 3 x 3 x 4 wooden chests; etc.—but unless you're an expert in the field, how do you know what the volume of your weapons, armor, excavation tools, and so on are? I'm not going to spend hours figuring that out, but I can certainly spend a few minutes tallying up the weights I've been handed right out of the book. That's why I ignore volume but pay attention to weight.

[Josh the Aspie]

So by RAW it shoulds like you can stick a portable hole in a Haversack and not have the bad things happen when you stick a PH in to a bag of holding.


If this right?

Afraid not. The Haversack's description says that it is several bags of holding in one item, with an additional benefit of being able to grab things from it as a non-AoO move action.

[Aquillion]

Actually, since the Handy Haversack says it "holds items like a Bag of Holding", and putting a Bag of Holding in a Portable Hole causes planar doom, a Handy Haversack does it too.I disagree. It says that it holds items like a bag of holding, not that it behaves like a bag of holding in all respects. Likewise, the portable hole doesn't say that it explodes when "anything that stores items in nondimensional spaces" or "anything that operates like a bag of holding" is put into it (there are many, many items and effects like that; in earlier editions they were specifically included, but now they're specifically left out.) Hence, no--it explodes only when an actual, 100% pure, honest-to-goodness bag of holding is inserted. Other things aren't the same.

(Debatably, a haversack will explode when a portable hole is put into it, though, since "holding things like a bag of holding" includes that clause. But I don't see any reason, per RAW, it would cause any problems when it's placed into the hole itself.)

In any case, I can't seriously imagine anyone using these rules, not even in the editions when they were part of the RAW. "Boom, all the loot you collected over the past few weeks we've been playing is gone forever because of an absurdly bizarre clause your character had no way of knowing about?"

No. Just no.

[Fax Celestis]

In any case, I can't seriously imagine anyone using these rules, not even in the editions when they were part of the RAW. "Boom, all the loot you collected over the past few weeks we've been playing is gone forever because of an absurdly bizarre clause your character had no way of knowing about?"

Actually, there are instances where I have used it as an offensive tactic.

[Serenity]

I love it simply for the image of a fanatic entering a densely populated area, and shouting "I've got a portable hole and a bag of holding! Nobody move, or I'll put one in the other!"

[Crazy_Uncle_Doug]

Well, my point wasn't so much to calculate volume so much as to say that such things are for the most part ignored. Weight and mass as well. For example, a while ago I ran an adventure where the party took on some advanced Hobgoblins and Half-Dragon, Half-Hobgoblins. Of course, the nasties had some better-than-average weapons. The party would loot the corpses merrily and would plop plate armor, breastplates, shields and various weapons into the popular Bag of Holding.

I really didn't want to be draconian with how much weight that bag carried (it mattered little, as we all knew this was the closing adventure). They didn't want to take time to calculate how much weight that bag had. Thus, though I can see why some would want to try for the "extra capacity" angle, from my experience it'd be wasted effort. Encumberance tends to be a calculation nuisance rather than a tool to advance gameplay in the groups I play. Thus we recognize the need for Bags of Holding over Backpacks, as the latter is limited capacity and the former is not as limited. In practice, it becomes a "Bag of Unlimited Capacity."

The volume comment was more directed at modern videogames. They've moved from the "Diablo/Dungeon Siege" method of inventory, where everything has weight and simple volume measured by 2-dimensional square units, to a rudimentary system like in Neverwinter Nights 2 where everything takes up the same volume, effectively -- with some stacking at time -- thus a book is the same size as the head of a dragon or a greatsword, or in World of Warcraft where everything is weightless and has the volume of one square, with some stacking permitted. This paragraph only has three sentences.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Well, my point wasn't so much to calculate volume so much as to say that such things are for the most part ignored. Weight and mass as well.
Speak for yourself.


For example, a while ago I ran an adventure where the party took on some advanced Hobgoblins and Half-Dragon, Half-Hobgoblins. Of course, the nasties had some better-than-average weapons. The party would loot the corpses merrily and would plop plate armor, breastplates, shields and various weapons into the popular Bag of Holding.
Now, even if not keeping strict count of the weight, I'd have to assume there's a "Okay, that's just too much" limit somewhere.


Thus we recognize the need for Bags of Holding over Backpacks, as the latter is limited capacity and the former is not as limited.
:smallconfused: There's no capacity limit whatsoever listed for a standard backapack. You could take your 20 Strength Half-Orc, load him to full capacity with about 40 10-lb. bowling balls, and they could all be carried in the same backpack as far as defined rules are concerned. The only storage spaces with listed capacities are magical ones. Go figure.


In practice, it becomes a "Bag of Unlimited Capacity."
And which type of bag of holding gives this new item its price?


The volume comment was more directed at modern videogames.
Well, that really doesn't change anything in this discussion...

[Starbuck_II]

I can't tell if that should be something lude or the next game show to come from Japan.

I know I'd play.

[Citizen Joe]

I love it simply for the image of a fanatic entering a densely populated area, and shouting "I've got a portable hole and a bag of holding! Nobody move, or I'll put one in the other!"

You know you could do that with a black sheet and a regular sack.

[Fax Celestis]

You know you could do that with a black sheet and a regular sack.

Ah, memories.

[Citizen Joe]

:smallconfused: There's no capacity limit whatsoever listed for a standard backapack. .... The only storage spaces with listed capacities are magical ones. Go figure.


I found the capacities on the Crystal Keep site. They reference WoTC website (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040406a.) as a reference.
{table=head]Item|cost gp | empty (lbs) | Cu. Ft. | Lbs. | Gallons
Backpack (for a Medium creature) |2 |2 |1 |60| —
Backpack (for a Small creature) |2| 1/2 |1/4 |15| —
Barrel |2 |30 |10 |650 |75
Basket |0.4 |1 |1| 20| —
Bucket |0.5 |2 |1 |65 |7
Chest |2 |25 |2 |200| —
Pouch, Belt (for a Medium creature) |1 |1/2 |1/5 |10 |—
Pouch, Belt (for a Small creature) |1 |1/8 |1/20 |2½| —
Pouch, Spell Component (for a Medium creature)| 5| 1/4 |1/8| 2 |—
Pouch, Spell Component (for a Small creature) |5 |1/16 |1/32| 0.5| —
Sack (for a Medium creature) |0.1 |1/2 | 1 |60 |—
Sack (for a Small creature) |0.1 |1/16 |1/4| 15 |—
Saddlebags |4 |8 |5 |250 |—
[/table]

[Citizen Joe]

You know you could do that with a black sheet and a regular sack.

Ah, memories.
Wait, are you talking about Poke the Munchkin?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I love it simply for the image of a fanatic entering a densely populated area, and shouting "I've got a portable hole and a bag of holding! Nobody move, or I'll put one in the other!"
Anyone who knew that was a dangerous combination would likely know just keeping 10 ft. away from the crazy man would keep them safe. It's an extremely small area of effect. Not enough to be holding entire town squares hostage with to be sure.

[Fax Celestis]

Wait, are you talking about Poke the Munchkin?

No, I mean I threatened parliamentary government with a black sheet, a burlap bag, and a hefty bluff check.

[Crazy_Uncle_Doug]

:smallconfused: There's no capacity limit whatsoever listed for a standard backapack. You could take your 20 Strength Half-Orc, load him to full capacity with about 40 10-lb. bowling balls, and they could all be carried in the same backpack as far as defined rules are concerned. The only storage spaces with listed capacities are magical ones. Go figure.

Ack. Once again I post at work where I can't look at rulebooks. See, this is how I know I'm old. I know at least 2nd Edition -- or maybe it was some other game altogether, they all mesh into a confused mass in my head sometimes -- had a hard limit on how much one's bag could carry. Looking at the rules, it seems carrying capacity was forgotten to be added. Note the footnote that states that containers for Small-sized characters weigh 1/4 of the full-sized item, and have 1/4 the carry capacity.

Not that this really changes my point. It's more or less understood that my character's backpack can carry so much. On the other hand, no one seems to complain when I pull an infinite number of clowns from my Bag of Holding. As stated before, in my experience, it's essentially become a Bag of Unlimited Capacity. Nobody ever checks my bag type to see what it is, no one checks the actual capacity.

Does give me an idea for risks of an "overstuffed bag" in the games I run. Maybe, once they hit over capacity and still try to fill it, rather than have no room, the bag just shunts out other items into the material or even ethereal or astral planes. Fun stuff. Well for me, the DM. I can imagine groans from the party. Muahaha.

[Chronos]

Do you know offhand how much volume a pound of soap takes up? A pint of oil? A kukri? A hooded lantern?I'll betcha I do know the volume of a pint of oil! It's one pint.

And for the soap (or wood, or leather, or food, or almost any other organic material), 1 pound = 1 pint is a pretty good approximation. For mineral items, it'll be somewhere in the vicinity of 2-6 pounds per pint (2 or 3 for light minerals like aluminum mithral, 3 or 4 for most stone, 5.5 for iron or steel, and adamantium might be a bit more).

[BardicDuelist]

While slightly off topic, I generally tell my players that their characters would not know what happens when you put a PH in a BoH or any other similar ideas. Since they are good role players, many of the low wis or curious characters have repeated this mis hap.

[Jack Mann]

I'll betcha I do know the volume of a pint of oil! It's one pint.

And for the soap (or wood, or leather, or food, or almost any other organic material), 1 pound = 1 pint is a pretty good approximation. For mineral items, it'll be somewhere in the vicinity of 2-6 pounds per pint (2 or 3 for light minerals like aluminum mithral, 3 or 4 for most stone, 5.5 for iron or steel, and adamantium might be a bit more).

Again, as with so many things that might be more realistic, I don't see that tracking all of this would add anything to the game, and so I feel it's best left abstracted. Volume only matters if, for some reason, I think it would make the situation more fun. That is, if it's so obvious that not at least handwaving it would hurt verisimilitude, then I'll work something out, but otherwise, I'll ignore it. Assume that the characters are Just That Good at packing that they defy conventional notions about the constraints of space and matter.

Hey, there's an idea for a prestige class...

[technophile]

I'll betcha I do know the volume of a pint of oil! It's one pint.
Really? The bottle to hold it takes up no volume? That's a neat trick. Or do you just pour the oil directly in your backpack and use the pack for a torch instead of bothering with that pesky lantern?


And for the soap (or wood, or leather, or food, or almost any other organic material), 1 pound = 1 pint is a pretty good approximation. For mineral items, it'll be somewhere in the vicinity of 2-6 pounds per pint (2 or 3 for light minerals like aluminum mithral, 3 or 4 for most stone, 5.5 for iron or steel, and adamantium might be a bit more).
And a lantern? Do we get treated to some complex calculation of the space-to-material ratio multiplied by the material weight per volume now?

In any case: okay, bully for you, we have a materials scientist in the room.

Most games don't have the benefit of that knowledge, and wouldn't be any more fun if they did.

[Curmudgeon]

Again, as with so many things that might be more realistic, I don't see that tracking all of this would add anything to the game, and so I feel it's best left abstracted. Oh, no, you're missing out on some easy fun. I ran a game once where my players spent every cp they had on equipment to get their players started, and had nearly full backpacks. So off they go adventuring, and they run low on rations before they get to the caves they were going to explore. Without money to buy food they had to take up hunting -- and there was no Ranger in the group. So the Rogue was forced to became the hunter and sneak up on game animals with his crossbow; the Fighter was just too loud. Once they'd slain a deer they smoked the meat and filled up their backpacks. In the caves they had various encounters and finally reached the Kobold treasure trove: thousands of copper pieces!

They split up, leaving a bunch of their gear and a couple of guards behind in the cave, then toted their copper pieces until they found a farmer willing to sell them a mule. On the second trip back with their loot they didn't get far before they were ambushed and the encumbered mule was killed. They ate mule meat and shifted their gear in relays back to the cave while they sent scouts out to find some alternate beast of burden. Eventually they found someone willing to part with a cart horse. The party filled their bellies and went forth with little except the money needed to buy this animal. Remember, it takes 2-1/2 full 60 lb. backpack loads of copper pieces to pay for a standard price horse. When they got the horse back to the cave they were able, finally, to get their loot back to town.

I didn't have to work hard at all to make this a challenging scenario that tested the ingenuity of a level 1 party. I just paid attention to the carrying capacity rules. The players had a real sense of accomplishment for overcoming all the obstacles that this treasure hoard imposed.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

While slightly off topic, I generally tell my players that their characters would not know what happens when you put a PH in a BoH or any other similar ideas.
I assume you mean "When my players' characters fail their Knowledge (arcana) check, I tell them..."

Kinda silly to think the characters with any significant magical training would have no chance to know something in their field.


I didn't have to work hard at all to make this a challenging scenario that tested the ingenuity of a level 1 party. I just paid attention to the carrying capacity rules. The players had a real sense of accomplishment for overcoming all the obstacles that this treasure hoard imposed.
But did you stop and calculate the volume of everything or just say, "Oh, it's a crapload of copper and freakin' huge haunches of meat. It's just not gonna fit."?

[Jack Mann]

Oh, no, you're missing out on some easy fun. I ran a game once where my players spent every cp they had on equipment to get their players started, and had nearly full backpacks. So off they go adventuring, and they run low on rations before they get to the caves they were going to explore. Without money to buy food they had to take up hunting -- and there was no Ranger in the group. So the Rogue was forced to became the hunter and sneak up on game animals with his crossbow; the Fighter was just too loud. Once they'd slain a deer they smoked the meat and filled up their backpacks. In the caves they had various encounters and finally reached the Kobold treasure trove: thousands of copper pieces!

They split up, leaving a bunch of their gear and a couple of guards behind in the cave, then toted their copper pieces until they found a farmer willing to sell them a mule. On the second trip back with their loot they didn't get far before they were ambushed and the encumbered mule was killed. They ate mule meat and shifted their gear in relays back to the cave while they sent scouts out to find some alternate beast of burden. Eventually they found someone willing to part with a cart horse. The party filled their bellies and went forth with little except the money needed to buy this animal. Remember, it takes 2-1/2 full 60 lb. backpack loads of copper pieces to pay for a standard price horse. When they got the horse back to the cave they were able, finally, to get their loot back to town.

I didn't have to work hard at all to make this a challenging scenario that tested the ingenuity of a level 1 party. I just paid attention to the carrying capacity rules. The players had a real sense of accomplishment for overcoming all the obstacles that this treasure hoard imposed.

And as I said, it matters when it makes the situation more fun. Did it make the situation more fun to make them deal with it? Yes? Then you help to prove my point.

[Curmudgeon]

But did you stop and calculate the volume of everything or just say, "Oh, it's a crapload of copper and freakin' huge haunches of meat. It's just not gonna fit."? No, I figured it out. The copper density is high (under 200 cubic inches for a full 60 lb. load compared to 1728 cubic inches for backpack capacity) so it left lots of room for other things. They almost exclusively had to worry about weight, not volume. The only volume problem came when they were going to simplistically load up everybody with copper and leave all the light stuff to the last person. So they just redistributed things and were fine. They were encumbered while moving, so they practiced dumping their backpacks quickly in case of trouble. I let the Rogue drop his as a free action if he made a DC 0 Sleight of Hand check with a -20 penalty; otherwise it was a move action for everybody.

[Mewtarthio]

Misdirect. The bag opened accesses some other bag's contents. Until removed from present extradimensional space, those contents are all one can get. Once out, the previous contents are restored.

Okay, that would be fun. A few possibilities I envision:

-----

A shrunken gnome pops out, glances around, then yells "I'm free!" and scurries off.

---

Meanwhile, in another universe, the world cheers at the latest feat. Destroya, the monstrosity that has plagued this world for centuries, is defeated! Though it can never be truly killed, the gods of this world have found a way to seal its evil. Combining their powers, they have created a magnificently large extradimensional space and locked it within. They are confident that no mortal could access this space: Indeed, the only way to remove the seal would be to have access to all the powers of all the gods! For now, they can rest easy...

---

There is a massive claymore inside, it's hilt covered in gems.
"I make an Appraise check."
The smallest of these gems would be enough to buy an entire kingdom.
"I cast Detect Magic."
You are overwhelmed with sheer magical might.
"Awesome! I take it!"
Suddenly, the sky is torn apart with thunder! The ground shakes as it has never shaken before nor ever will shake again! Small animals cower in their burrows! People panic in the streets, running they know not where! Kings curse the gods that have brought this upon them, though they still do not repent of their sins! From ground to sky, a terrible rip is wrought upon the very fabric of reality! Emerging from this tear in the weave of space and time is a mighty creature with seven heads and seven legs! The greatest of these heads has seven eyes, and the greatest of these eyes has seven colors! Carved into the flesh of this creature, as though with a diamond onto rock, are all manner of blasphemies and horrors in all the languages of this earth and all others! Staring down at you, the creature speaks in a voice that is as the voice of a crowd of seven thousand, each being of which is like unto one of the seven thunders, and says... "Hey, that's mine. Can I have it back, please?"
"Uh... I give it back?"
"Thanks." The creature retreats, the rift is sealed, and all is still once more.
"So... no more trying to hide bags of holding inside portable holes?"
Exactly.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

No, I figured it out. The copper density is high (under 200 cubic inches for a full 60 lb. load compared to 1728 cubic inches for backpack capacity) so it left lots of room for other things.
And where'd you get these figures? Certainly not from the PHB.

[Chronos]

Again, as with so many things that might be more realistic, I don't see that tracking all of this would add anything to the game, and so I feel it's best left abstracted.Oh, I agree, actually. Most things are close enough to the same density that I wouldn't worry about volume, and just measure everything by weight. It'd only really be an issue if the players were trying to carry a huge slab of balsa wood, or something. I'm just saying that if a DM more anal than you or I wanted to actually keep track of volumes, that it's not as hard as one might think.

[Curmudgeon]

And where'd you get these figures? Certainly not from the PHB. Density lists of real materials are easy to come by. I found one of these prepared for use with the Secret Chest spell:{table]Substance|lb./cubic foot|Cubic inches/lb.|Cubic Inches/level
Agate|165.00|10.4727273|105
Aluminum|169.00|10.2248521|102
Asphalt|69-94|21.6|216
Bauxite|149-218|9.6|96
Beeswax|60.00|28.8|288
Bone|106-125|15.026087|150
Brick|87-137|15.4285714|154
Cardboard|43.00|40.1860465|402
Cement, set|170-190|9.6|96
Charcoal, oak|35.00|49.3714286|494
Charcoal, pine|18-28|75.1304348|751
Chromium|449.00|3.84855234|38
Clay|112-162|12.6131387|126
Coal, anthracite|87-112|17.28|173
Coal, bituminous|75-94|20.5714286|206
Cobalt|556.00|3.10791367|31
Copper|559.00|3.09123435|31
Cork|14-16|115.2|1152
Diamond|188-220|8.42926829|84
Emerald|166-177|10.0465116|100
Flint|164.00|10.5365854|105
Garnet|225-268|7.05306122|71
Gelatin|79.00|21.8734177|219
Glass|150-175|10.6666667|107
Glass, flint|180-370|6.28363636|63
Gold|1179.00|1.46564885|15
Granite|165-172|10.2248521|102
Ice|57.20|30.2097902|302
Iron|491.00|3.51934827|35
Ivory|114-120|14.7692308|148
Lead|708.00|2.44067797|24
Leather, dry|54.00|32|320
Lime, slaked|81-87|20.5714286|206
Limestone|167-171|10.2248521|102
Magnesium|109.00|15.853211|159
Manganese|449.00|3.84855234|38
Marble|160-177|10.2248521|102
Mercury|848.00|2.03773585|20
Nickel|556.00|3.10791367|31
Opal|108-135|14.6440678|146
Paper|44-72|31.4181818|314
Paraffin|54-57|30.8571429|309
Peat blocks|52.00|33.2307692|332
Phosphorus, white|114.00|15.1578947|152
Pitch|67.00|25.7910448|258
Platinum|1339.00|1.29051531|13
Porcelain|143-156|11.5973154|116
Quartz|165.00|10.4727273|105
Resin|67.00|25.7910448|258
Rock salt|136.00|12.7058824|127
Rubber, hard|74.00|23.3513514|234
Rubber, pure gum|57-58|30.3157895|303
Ruby|250.00|6.912|69
Sandstone|134-147|12.2553191|123
Sapphire|250.00|6.912|69
Silver|655.00|2.63816794|26
Slag|125-240|9.49450549|95
Slate|162-205|9.6|96
Starch|95.00|18.1894737|182
Steel, plain carbon|491.00|3.51934827|35
Sugar|99.00|17.4545455|175
Tallow|59.00|29.2881356|293
Tar|66.00|26.1818182|262
Tin|359-454|4.32|43
Titanium|281.00|6.14946619|61
Tungsten|1208.00|1.43046358|14
Wax, sealing|112.00|15.4285714|154
Water|62.00|27.8709677|279
Wood, balsa|7-9|216|2160
Wood, bamboo|19-25|75.1304348|751
Wood, cedar|30-35|52.3636364|524
Wood, cherry|43-56|35.2653061|353
Wood, elm|34-37|49.3714286|494
Wood, maple|39-47|40.1860465|402
Wood, oak|37-56|34.56|346
Wood, pitch pine|52-53|33.2307692|332
Wood, walnut|40-43|42.1463415|421
Wood, white pine|22-31|66.4615385|665
Zinc|446.00|3.87443946|39[/table]

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Density lists of real materials are easy to come by.
Well, I can see how that would be useful when carrying items composed almost entirely of a single material that have shapes that allow for 100% efficient packing and no empty space. Doesn't really help with more complex objects. Of course, even with simple objects, the listing in the PHB doesn't necessarily tell you what kind of stone or metal is used.

Admittedly, most objects available on the equipment lists don't cause much problem where this is concerned. But it still would be an issue more often than I'd like to deal with it.

And more to the point: A ruleset shouldn't require you to have to hunt down this kind of information on your own. It makes the game inherently more difficult.

[Curmudgeon]

Well, I can see how that would be useful when carrying items composed almost entirely of a single material that have shapes that allow for 100% efficient packing and no empty space. Luckily for the D&D player, most of the magical carrying spaces are nondimensional rather than merely extradimensional. You pretty much have 100% efficent use of the volume in everything except a Portable Hole.

[Chronos]

Psst, Curmudgeon, there's some glitches in your table. Like, it has "Rock" listed as a substance, with a density of "salt", and the numbers displaced one space to the right. This appears to have happened whenever an entry contained a space without a comma.

[Curmudgeon]

Psst, Curmudgeon, there's some glitches in your table. Thanks for pointing this out. It should be fixed now. I started with Excel-generated HTML, which needed a lot of stripping to get it down to something that looked like VBcode. I guess my script to do the stripping was a little rough.

[Citizen Joe]

Why all the weird calculations? Secret chest holds 1 cubic foot per level.

[Chronos]

Why all the weird calculations? Secret chest holds 1 cubic foot per level.The problem is that some things like Secret Chest are limited by volume, but most things in the game are usually measured by weight. So if you have 10 cubic feet available, that's easily enough to hold 200 pounds of gold, but not nearly enough for 200 pounds of balsa wood.

[Gralamin]

Thanks for pointing this out. It should be fixed now. I started with Excel-generated HTML, which needed a lot of stripping to get it down to something that looked like VBcode. I guess my script to do the stripping was a little rough.

I just make the actual table in Excel, Copy it into word pad, copy a tab character, and use the replace feature to make all tabs become | characters.