PAO Into a Simulacrum?

[unseenmage]

Because of its Instantaneous duration the Simulacrum spell makes real creatures the same way Wall of Stone makes real stone.

That said, could you Polymorph Any Object an NPC or monster into a Simulacrum version of itself?

And if so, is it stuck that way due to the 'Simulacrum cannot become more powerful' clause?

[unseenmage]

No takers on this one huh? Is a shame because I was looking forward to somed discussion about the potential weaponization of 'being polymorphed into a simulacrum'.

[Jack_Simth]

Because of its Instantaneous duration the Simulacrum spell makes real creatures the same way Wall of Stone makes real stone.

That said, could you Polymorph Any Object an NPC or monster into a Simulacrum version of itself?

And if so, is it stuck that way due to the 'Simulacrum cannot become more powerful' clause?

In what sense is the results of a Simulacrum spell not a creature with a template?

[Bronk]

Because of its Instantaneous duration the Simulacrum spell makes real creatures the same way Wall of Stone makes real stone.

Although, it's not quite the same as a regular creature, being partially illusory and otherwise just an inanimate lump of ice and snow.



That said, could you Polymorph Any Object an NPC or monster into a Simulacrum version of itself?


Without the simulacrum spell actually having been used, you might just get the ice and snow. Except that ice and snow aren't a valid outcome, so it might be that nothing would happen if you tried this.

However, I think this also wouldn't work because PAO has a list of spells that it can duplicate, and simulacrum isn't on the list.



And if so, is it stuck that way due to the 'Simulacrum cannot become more powerful' clause?

If this were to work in the first place, PAO changes your form in a way that leaves your 'true form' intact, visible to the true seeing spell, for example. So, the target was never really a simulacrum in the first place, they just had some of the powers of a simulacrum.

Also, if this were to work it would require some trickery to use offensively, since PAO works like polymorph, which only works on willing targets.

That's my take on it...

[unseenmage]

In what sense is the results of a Simulacrum spell not a creature with a template?
Because there isn't an associated template?



Although, it's not quite the same as a regular creature, being partially illusory and otherwise just an inanimate lump of ice and snow.
That's fluff, not crunch. Antimagic field doesn't revert them to such and you can't dispel the illusory bit. They're as real as that Instantaneous duration and their creature type makes them.
If they're humanoids they eat and sleep and drown and age just like any other humanoid.


However, I think this also wouldn't work because PAO has a list of spells that it can duplicate, and simulacrum isn't on the list.
This could be a concern.




If this were to work in the first place, PAO changes your form in a way that leaves your 'true form' intact, visible to the true seeing spell, for example. So, the target was never really a simulacrum in the first place, they just had some of the powers of a simulacrum.
Including the power to not be able to become more powerful.



Also, if this were to work it would require some trickery to use offensively, since PAO works like polymorph, which only works on willing targets.

Agreed it'd be tricky. If you can make them willing already the fight's kinda already over.
Perhaps useful as a punishment for serious crimes?

[Nifft]

Can you PAO into a Wall of Force?

A Wall of Force is a spell effect, not an object.

A Simulacrum is also a spell effect, rather than being a creature.

So if you can PAO into a Wall of Force, then I'd say you can also PAO into a Simulacrum.

[unseenmage]

Can you PAO into a Wall of Force?

A Wall of Force is a spell effect, not an object.

A Simulacrum is also a spell effect, rather than being a creature.

So if you can PAO into a Wall of Force, then I'd say you can also PAO into a Simulacrum.
So no Polymorph into an Animated Object? Pretty sure there are some rather valid builds around that one. Though admittedly I am no expert.

[Nifft]

So no Polymorph into an Animated Object? Pretty sure there are some rather valid builds around that one. Though admittedly I am no expert.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/animatedObject.htm <-- looks like a Creature to me

[unseenmage]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/animatedObject.htm <-- looks like a Creature to me
Are Awakened Sand (Sa) not creatures? Crawling Claws (MC:MoF)? Awakened Trees?

[Nifft]

Hmm, thinking about it a bit more, an animated object appears to be a magical object, so it might be excluded by the "non-magical object" provision of PAO.

So I think your "animated object" idea might also fail, even though that is a creature with an entry.

Depends on how the DM reads that particular restriction.



Are Awakened Sand (Sa) not creatures? Crawling Claws (MC:MoF)? Awakened Trees?

What kingdom is each of those things in (animal, vegetable, or mineral)?

[Jack_Simth]

Because there isn't an associated template?It's a set of rules that modify a base creature into another creature. It's not written up the same way as other templates (and is missing some information that goes with most), but it is one.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Yes, I think?


Can you PAO into creatures in the Monster Manual?1 Very likely, yes.
Can you PAO into items in the Player's Handbook?1 As likely, certainly.

When turning into these objects, you can turn into the game (mechanical) object directly. I would personally feel that that removes any doubt about their availability; you can simply point at the statblock and tell the DM "I become that". The game has already codified the correspondence between in-universe object ("horse") and game object ("statblock on page 273").


Can you turn into an item not in the Player's Handbook, say, a steel drum? Well, probably. Steel drums are objects, right? We know how they work, so we know how to play it.
Can you turn into a creature not in the Monster Manual, say, an okapi? Well, probably. Okapi exist, right? We can play okapi.

When turning into these obects, you can't turn into the game object, because they don't exist. Now, PAO doesn't tell you the form you're taking must be a game object, so that shouldn't be a problem, but it does mean you are almost requiring homebrew game objects (corresponding to in-universe objects) to be made in order to play the game2.


In the case at hand, the correspondence between in-universe object ("simulacrum of something") and game object ("statblock on page X modified by the rules on page Y") is already established. You can point at the statblock and tell the DM "I become that". For that reason, I think it's fair to allow PAO into a simulacrum.


1 Using these as anaphor for "all the books".
2 Technically, you could avoid all D&D mechanical interactions while PAOd (as in creating a pint of helium beer for laughs, for example), but that rather defeats the purpose of playing D&D. Plus the entire table has to cooperate. On the plus side, it avoids most of PAO's game-breaking power.

[Nifft]

In the case at hand, the correspondence between in-universe object ("simulacrum of something") and game object ("statblock on page X modified by the rules on page Y") is already established. You can point at the statblock and tell the DM "I become that". For that reason, I think it's fair to allow PAO into a simulacrum.

A simulacrum is an Illusion, though.

It's not a creature which has been transformed, and as a spell effect it's probably not a "non-magical object".

Do you think it's reasonable to PAO someone into a major image of a steel drum? IMHO no. Illusions are game effects with rules, but they're not creatures, nor are they "non-magical objects".

[unseenmage]

It's a set of rules that modify a base creature into another creature. It's not written up the same way as other templates (and is missing some information that goes with most), but it is one.

So is Owl's Wisdom a template? Heroism? Any spell that expresses itself as a set of rules modifying a base creature?
Genuinely curious where you draw the line. A % of the base statblock changed? A set word count for the base spell?


A simulacrum is an Illusion, though.

It's not a creature which has been transformed, and as a spell effect it's probably not a "non-magical object".

Do you think it's reasonable to PAO someone into a major image of a steel drum? IMHO no. Illusions are game effects with rules, but they're not creatures, nor are they "non-magical objects".

How, mechanically, by RAW is it an illusion? How does a Simulacrum, as an illusion interact with the rules?

Short answer, it doesn't.

[Nifft]

How, mechanically, by RAW is it an illusion? Have you tried reading the spell?

https://i.imgur.com/jx1Ql4j.png

Per RAW, simulacrum is a spell that creates an illusion. You can't PAO something into an illusion, and you sure as hell can't PAO something into a spell.



How does a Simulacrum, as an illusion interact with the rules?

Short answer, it doesn't.

Er, the rules say that it's exactly and only an illusion.

If you think that "as an illusion" it somehow doesn't interact with the rules, then maybe you think it doesn't exist in the game?

It's difficult to make sense of what you're trying to say, since a simulacrum is exactly and specifically an Illusion, and the thing created by the spell simulacrum is an illusory duplicate of a thing, not a thing in itself.

Again, do you think that you can PAO someone into a major image? Or perhaps PAO someone into a mirror image? That makes about as much sense. Which is to say, it does not make any sense at all.

[unseenmage]

Have you tried reading the spell?

https://i.imgur.com/jx1Ql4j.png

Per RAW, simulacrum is a spell that creates an illusion. You can't PAO something into an illusion, and you sure as hell can't PAO something into a spell.




Er, the rules say that it's exactly and only an illusion.

If you think that "as an illusion" it somehow doesn't interact with the rules, then maybe you think it doesn't exist in the game?

It's difficult to make sense of what you're trying to say, since a simulacrum is exactly and specifically an Illusion, and the thing created by the spell simulacrum is an illusory duplicate of a thing, not a thing in itself.

Again, do you think that you can PAO someone into a major image? Or perhaps PAO someone into a mirror image? That makes about as much sense. Which is to say, it does not make any sense at all.
None of the things you're describing have the base attributes attributed to creatures, HD, ability scores, etc.

[Nifft]

None of the things you're describing have the base attributes attributed to creatures, HD, ability scores, etc.

Do you think that a silent image effect has all of those attributes?

Do you think that a wall of force effect has all of those attributes?

[RoboEmperor]

Do you think a silent image illusion has any of those things?

It's different in this case because Shadow spells actually create the creature rather than just be an illusion.

So the question here is, can you PaO a wolf into a shadow wolf that has been created with Shadow Conjuration?

I'm thinking no. There's no rule saying you can, but there's no rule saying you can't. But seeing how I would treat shadow conjuration and simulacrum like templates, I'd rule no.

[Crake]

A more interesting question is: what happens if you PAO someone into a clump of ice and stone that resembles themself, then cast simulacrum on them? They have now been instantaneously transformed into a simulacrum of themselves.....

[Nifft]

A more interesting question is: what happens if you PAO someone into a clump of ice and stone that resembles themself, then cast simulacrum on them? They have now been instantaneously transformed into a simulacrum of themselves.....

The duration of PAO would be 3 hours, not Instantaneous.

But if you can do that, why not PAO them into a silent image of themselves?

Then you don't have to listen to them for the (brief) duration of a spell which nobody cast, on which nobody is Concentrating.

[RoboEmperor]

The duration of PAO would be 3 hours, not Instantaneous.

But if you can do that, why not PAO them into a silent image of themselves?

Then you don't have to listen to them for the (brief) duration of a spell which nobody cast, on which nobody is Concentrating.

You're focusing too much on the illusion part. A simulacrum is a creature. Silent Image is not a creature. You should acknowledge at least that much before being sarcastic.

[Crake]

The duration of PAO would be 3 hours, not Instantaneous.

But if you can do that, why not PAO them into a silent image of themselves?

Then you don't have to listen to them for the (brief) duration of a spell which nobody cast, on which nobody is Concentrating.

Well, if you rapid spell simulacrum, it only takes 1 hour to cast, so 3 hours is long enough to convert that PAO lump ice and snow into an actual simulacrum... which is an instantaneous effect.

[Nifft]

You're focusing too much on the illusion part. A simulacrum is a creature. Silent Image is not a creature. You should acknowledge at least that much before being sarcastic. What sarcasm?

Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of a creature. That's literally the first sentence of the spell. It behaves like a creature, but it is not a real creature, and instead it is an illusion. Many other illusions also behave like a creature.

A projected image behaves like a creature, in that it takes actions and casts spells.

A mirror image is an illusory duplicate of a creature.

If you think that the effect of a simulacrum spell is an object or creature, then you ought to also think that the effect of a shadow conjuration is an object or creature, and therefore by your logic you can PAO a dude into mage armor.


Well, if you rapid spell simulacrum, it only takes 1 hour to cast, so 3 hours is long enough to convert that PAO lump ice and snow into an actual simulacrum... which is an instantaneous effect. There's no need for anything that convoluted to show this hole in the rules.

Step 1: PAO a pebble into a dude. Duration: 20 minutes.

Step 2: Flesh to stone the dude (an instantaneous effect). Duration: Instantaneous.

[Jack_Simth]

So is Owl's Wisdom a template? Heroism? Any spell that expresses itself as a set of rules modifying a base creature?
Genuinely curious where you draw the line. A % of the base statblock changed? A set word count for the base spell?I don't have a hard and fast rule for it, but really:

Would you permit someone to Polymorph Any Object into "A dragon with [List of X buff spells] on it"? I wouldn't. Why should I treat Simulacrum any differently? Calling 'em all 'trivial templates' or 'temporary trivial templates' mostly solves that.

[Bronk]

Including the power to not be able to become more powerful.

I think, going back to polymorph and then alter self, you would only gain that power if it was listed as an 'extraordinary special attack' somewhere.

[unseenmage]

Not sure if you folks are just playing devil's advocate or yanking my chain.

Spell effects are tricky sometimes, to be sure. Where the line gets drawn between what constitutes a spell effect that becomes a lasting part of a creature (Awaken) and what is a separate magical, dispelable effect (Owl's Wisdom) is never well defined.

For me the line gets drawn at antimagic field and dispel magic effects. If either of those can undo the effect then it is a separate ongoing magical effect not bound up in the creature itself.

Simulacrum is an illusion spell that creates a real creature. Was that the intent? Maybe not. But that is what it does within the confines of the rules by the plainest reading without arbitrarily adding elements.

If you feel the need to label it a template or to overemphasize the illusory element of the base spell in your games at your tables then go for it.
I will definitely not be applying either "interpretation".

[ExLibrisMortis]

Not sure if you folks are just playing devil's advocate or yanking my chain.
I think the idea is just a bit out there. I started writing my post with the idea that you couldn't, but after some rewriting I had to conclude that you can.

[Segev]

Are Awakened Sand (Sa) not creatures?Does it have an entry in the MM (or Sandstorm, or whatever)? If yes, then you can PAO into it. If no, then you can PAO into sand...but somebody would have to awaken you afterwards.


Crawling Claws (MC:MoF)?A monster entry exists.


Awakened Trees?You can PAO into a treant, or you can PAO into a tree and get an appropriate awaken spell cast on you (at which point you have stats more or less like a treant, IIRC).


Per RAW, simulacrum is a spell that creates an illusion. You can't PAO something into an illusion, and you sure as hell can't PAO something into a spell.Technically, you can PAO into a Living Spell, but I don't think that is quite the same thing.

[RoboEmperor]

Can you PaO directly into an awakened creature? This is a great example right? Awakened is not directly labeled as a "template" either, so i guess if the answer is yes for awakened creatures I guess the answer is yes for simulacrum too. And Shadow Creatures.

[Nifft]

That said, could you Polymorph Any Object an NPC or monster into a Simulacrum version of itself?

So, we've hopefully established that you can't PAO into an illusion.

But let's set that aside for a moment.


I think you also can't PAO anything into a non-average creature with class levels. You can use PAO to transmute something into an apparent likeness of an individual (granting a Disguise bonus), but you can't PAO into a non-baseline creature with non-average ability scores, class levels, or any such things.

If you could PAO into a simulacrum effect, all you would get are the abilities of the baseline creature type, minus whatever simulacrum removes, plus an apparent likeness of some target creature.


But since you can't PAO into a simulacrum effect, that's all moot.

EDIT:

Technically, you can PAO into a Living Spell, but I don't think that is quite the same thing.

That's an amazing idea.

Living Spell is a template, where are the rules polymorphing into templated critters?