Historical Query--"Official" settings of D&D across editions

[PhoenixPhyre]

Out of largely historical interest, I've been looking at how campaign settings have evolved between editions of D&D (specifically). I'm looking at official settings--those published by TSR/WoTC itself or with the official imprimatur of the owner.

Before I draw any summary conclusions, I need people to check my data for errors or missing information. The term "AD&D" encompasses both AD&D 1e and AD&D 2e, but not B/X/BECMI). An indication of "metaplot update" means that an in-universe event happened that caused setting changes; "retcon" implies that the setting was reworked to always have been that way.

Edits due to feedback are in red.

Blackmoor: First campaign setting, not published until much later (in B/X/BECMI) as part of Mystara's past. Not supported since then except as part of Mystara.

Birthright: Only supported in AD&D. No publications since then.

Council of Wyrms: Only supported in AD&D. No publications since then.

Dark Sun: Started in AD&D, supported by 3rd parties for 3e, and then got a retcon as a newly official setting in 4e. Mentioned in passing in published 5e materials.

Dragon Fist: Only supported in AD&D. No publications since then.

Dragonlance: Started in AD&D, switched rule-sets with metaplot update, supported by 3rd parties for 3e with a metaplot update, not supported in 4e, mentioned in passing in published 5e materials.

Eberron: Started in 3e, retconned in 4e, mentioned in published 5e material + got an early UA article.

Forgotten Realms: Unpublished throughout OD&D, first published in AD&D with metaplot update between AD&D 1e and AD&D 2e. Fully supported with small metaplot update in 3e. Fully supported with major metaplot update in 4e and 5e. Default setting for 5e modules (but not core rules).

Ghostwalk: Only supported in 3e (one book).

Greyhawk: Started in OD&D, fully supported in AD&D. Default setting in 3e (changes?). Not supported in 4e, although chunks of the deities names and history were cloned for Nentir Vale. Mentioned in 5e published materials.

Jakandor: Only supported in AD&D. No publications since then.

Kingodms of Kalamar: Started in 3e, supported by 3rd parties in 4e.

Lankhmar: Only supported in AD&D. No publications since then.

Mahasarpa Only supported in 3e. No publications since then.

Mystara: Default setting of B/X/BECMI. Supported in AD&D. Not supported in 3e or 4e (?). Mentioned in 5e published materials.

Nentir Vale/Points of Light: Default setting in 4e. Not supported elsewhere.

Pelinore: Only supported in AD&D. No publications since then.

Planescape: Only supported in AD&D. No publications since then although pieces (Sigil, mainly) were reused in 3e, 4e, and 5e materials.

Ravenloft: Started in AD&D, modules set there in 3e and 5e. Mentioned as part of the Shadowfell in 4e.

Rokugan: Only supported in 3e. No D&D publications since then (Lo5R doesn't count).

Spelljammer: Only supported in AD&D. No publications since then, although pieces were mentioned in 3e and 4e.

Thunder Rift: Only supported in B/X/BECMI. No publications since then.

Warcraft: Only supported in 3e (licensed). No publications since then.

Settings now part of Forgotten Realms (Thanks to Mark Hall):

Kara-Tur began in AD&D 1e, and was adapted to be the Far East/Asian setting of Forgotten Realms in AD&D 2e.
Maztica was a "Conquistadors in Mesoamerica" setting that also glommed onto the Forgotten Realms, this time west of the main continent.
Arabian Adventures, also known as Zakhara or the Lands of Fate was added south of Faerun.
Arcane Age was set in the distant past of Faerun, near the time of Netheril and the Elven empire of Cormanthyr.

Is this mostly correct? Are there settings or publications I missed?

[JadedDM]

Dragonlance had two metaplot updates.

The first was the Chaos War/Second Cataclysm that explained the update from AD&D to SAGA. The gods vanished, all mages and clerics lost their powers (to eventually be replaced by sorcerers and mystics), all magical items except the most powerful of artifacts lost their power, and five chromatic dragons went on a 'purge' where they slaughtered their own species, gaining their power (a la Highlander) until they were massive and nearly god-like themselves, then used that power to warp the land around them (e.g., the blue dragon turned the surrounding area into a desert).

The second one was when the setting was switched back to D&D and updated for 3E. This was the War of the Souls. The gods came back, and with them the old magic, and pretty much the old status quo in general was restored (the Dragon Overlords were overthrown, the land reverted back to how it used to be), but there were a few changes (two major gods were lost in the process, for instance).

[PhoenixPhyre]

Dragonlance had two metaplot updates.

The first was the Chaos War/Second Cataclysm that explained the update from AD&D to SAGA. The gods vanished, all mages and clerics lost their powers (to eventually be replaced by sorcerers and mystics), all magical items except the most powerful of artifacts lost their power, and five chromatic dragons went on a 'purge' where they slaughtered their own species, gaining their power (a la Highlander) until they were massive and nearly god-like themselves, then used that power to warp the land around them (e.g., the blue dragon turned the surrounding area into a desert).

The second one was when the setting was switched back to D&D and updated for 3E. This was the War of the Souls. The gods came back, and with them the old magic, and pretty much the old status quo in general was restored (the Dragon Overlords were overthrown, the land reverted back to how it used to be), but there were a few changes (two major gods were lost in the process, for instance).

Thanks! Added to OP.

[Khedrac]

There's a strong case for saying that Mystara was only the campaign world for BECMI D&D (though it did get converted to AD&D) and that the "Known World" was the campaign setting for B/X D&D.
The switch between them really happened during BECMI when the Hollow World boxed set came out, though the Gazatteers should be regarded as Mystara not Known World. (For one thing, the Known World was not hollow.)
Also, the Red Steel area of Mystara got greatly expanded for its transation to AD&D so it could be regarded as a different campaign world.

[Darth Ultron]

The a lot of Mystara stuff was added to Core 3E and has stayed in the game over the editions.

[Florian]

Ravenloft: Started in AD&D, modules set there in 3e and 5e.

Rokugan: Only supported in 3e. No D&D publications since then (Lo5R doesn't count).

Ravenloft: Started as a Module in AD&D 1st, upgraded to a full setting in AD&D 2nd, was licensed to Sword & Sorcery/White Wolf at the beginning of 2000/3E and was later brought back to official 3E with Expedition to Castle Ravenloft and incorporated as part of the Shadowfell in 4E.

Rokugan: WotC bought the L5R license at around 2000 and had a deal with AEG to continue the license. Rokugan was used as the basis of the Oriental Adventures 3E book, along with a line of novels published by WotC depicting the "Four Winds" era, with AEG developing the setting and dual-system, books of L5R 3E further.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Ravenloft: Started as a Module in AD&D 1st, upgraded to a full setting in AD&D 2nd, was licensed to Sword & Sorcery/White Wolf at the beginning of 2000/3E and was later brought back to official 3E with Expedition to Castle Ravenloft and incorporated as part of the Shadowfell in 4E.


I included the 3e part as "modules set there" because it didn't get a separate Campaign Setting document as far as I can tell. Added the part about 4e.



Rokugan: WotC bought the L5R license at around 2000 and had a deal with AEG to continue the license. Rokugan was used as the basis of the Oriental Adventures 3E book, along with a line of novels published by WotC depicting the "Four Winds" era, with AEG developing the setting and dual-system, books of L5R 3E further.

I'm only including the D20 (or other D&D) mechanical rulesets here, so L5R other than the D20 part isn't included. The first D&D use of the Rokugan setting was in Oriental Adventures (3e); no Rokugan materials were published for 4e or 5e. Am I correct in thinking that Kara-Tur (in the Forgotten Realms) was once part of a Rokugan-knockoff/offshoot setting that got plunked into the FR to give it a separate home?

[LibraryOgre]

I'm not familiar with 5e stuff, but here's what I know. If I don't mention it, I can't argue with it.



Birthright: Only supported in AD&D. No publications since then.

Specifically, 2nd edition AD&D. There was a fan-made version for 3.x, with a degree of approval from WotC. Also released as a computer game, Birthright: Gorgon's Alliance



Council of Wyrms: Only supported in AD&D. No publications since then.

There was a revised second printing late in 2e; the setting post-dates AD&D 1st edition.


Dark Sun: Started in AD&D, supported by 3rd parties for 3e, and then got a retcon as a newly official setting in 4e. Mentioned in passing in published 5e materials.

Starting in 2nd edition, revised later in 2nd edition, otherwise correct. Two computer games (Shattered Lands and Wake of the Ravager), and an MMO, Crimson Sands.



Dragonlance: Started in AD&D, switched rule-sets with metaplot update, supported by 3rd parties for 3e with a metaplot update, not supported in 4e, mentioned in passing in published 5e materials.

Started in AD&D 1st edition, updated to 2nd edition. Late 2e saw the "metaplot update" and change to the SAGA system. Otherwise correct. I would call draconians as being aesthetic and spiritual predecessors to 4e's Dragonborn, especially those from Weis and Perrin's Doom Brigade novels.



Forgotten Realms: Unpublished throughout OD&D, first published in AD&D with metaplot update between AD&D 1e and AD&D 2e. Fully supported with small metaplot update in 3e. Fully supported with major metaplot update in 4e and 5e. Default setting for 5e modules (but not core rules).

Initial support in Dragon Magazine (as early as issue #39; July 1980) as largely unrelated articles from Ed Greenwood, before getting made into a 1st edition AD&D setting. Metaplot update between 1e and 2e, then again between 2e and 3e. Major reconstruction in 4e.



Greyhawk: Started in OD&D, fully supported in AD&D. Default setting in 3e (changes?). Not supported in 4e, although chunks of the deities names and history were cloned for Nentir Vale. Mentioned in 5e published materials.

Started in OD&D, was the semi-official default for much of 1e. A metaplot update (Greyhawk Wars) lead to changes and slackening support in 2e (partially due to an executive decision to remove Gygaxian influences on the game), with a notable revival late in 2e. Became the official setting of 3e, but a very sparsely sketched version.



Kingodms of Kalamar: Started in 3e, supported by 3rd parties in 4e.

Started in 2e as 3rd party setting, published by Kenzerco. In the 3e era, was one of the few d20 products to carry the D&D label (as opposed to simply d20). Post-3e, there were some system notes for 4e, but now the official setting of Hackmaster (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/109620/HackMaster-Players-Handbook?affiliate_id=315505), published by Kenzerco. (Hackmaster Basic is free, and you should get it (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/104757/HackMaster-Basic-free?affiliate_id=315505))



Lankhmar: Only supported in AD&D. No publications since then.

Originally published in the 1930s and on as the short stories starring Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser. Originally appeared in AD&D as the Newhon Mythos in Deities and Demigods (and later Legends and Lore) with the permission of Fritz Leiber. Lankhmar-City of Adventure came out for AD&D 1e, and New Adventures of Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser came out for 2e (with some simplified rules for stand-alone play, if you prefered). Subsequently published for both RuneQuest and Savage Worlds systems.



Planescape: Only supported in AD&D. No publications since then although pieces (Sigil, mainly) were reused in 3e, 4e, and 5e materials.


Specifically, a 2nd edition setting.


Ravenloft: Started in AD&D, modules set there in 3e and 5e. Mentioned as part of the Shadowfell in 4e.

A module in 1e, it became a stand-alone or supplemental setting in 2e, with an initial boxed set and a later hardcover.



Is this mostly correct? Are there settings or publications I missed?

I would add a few, though they fall under different umbrellas, as well. Most are limited to 2e, except as noted.

Kara-Tur began in 1e, and was adapted to be the Far East/Asian setting of Forgotten Realms in 2e.
Maztica was a "Conquistadors in Mesoamerica" setting that also glommed onto the Forgotten Realms, this time west of the main continent.
Arabian Adventures, also known as Zakhara or the Lands of Fate was added south of Faerun.
Arcane Age was set in the distant past of Faerun, near the time of Netheril and the Elven empire of Cormanthyr.

Each of those 4 had separate imprints; while part of the Forgotten Realms, they were largely considered their own games.

Time of the Dragon, for Dragonlance, was a separate continent from Ansalon, and largely its own campaign setting, sharing little more than moons with the "main" campaign setting.

[FreddyNoNose]

Judge's Guild
First Fantasy Campaign.
Wilderlands of High Fantasy.

Both 1977.

[Honest Tiefling]

I swear I have seen images of a Diablo II book for either third edition or one of these bizarre pre-third editions that I don't know the abbreviations of.

[Florian]

I included the 3e part as "modules set there" because it didn't get a separate Campaign Setting document as far as I can tell. Added the part about 4e.

I'm only including the D20 (or other D&D) mechanical rulesets here, so L5R other than the D20 part isn't included. The first D&D use of the Rokugan setting was in Oriental Adventures (3e); no Rokugan materials were published for 4e or 5e. Am I correct in thinking that Kara-Tur (in the Forgotten Realms) was once part of a Rokugan-knockoff/offshoot setting that got plunked into the FR to give it a separate home?

You're not entirely correct.

WotC holds the IP to some settings and fully outsourced that to 3PP during 3E, like Gamma World, Dragonlance and Ravenloft, then there´re the ones that WotC held the license for a certain time before passing it on, which means L5R, Ars Magicka (4th) and Wheel of Time.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Several comments have brought up AD&D 1e vs AD&D 2e, which raises a question:

How much mechanical difference was there between those two systems? Small and mostly interoperable (like 3e and 3.5e) or major (like anything and 4e)? If there was enough of a setting-related difference to require metaplot changes to explain it (FR and Dragonlance), it seems like it was larger than I thought.

[redwizard007]

I didn't see Al-Quadin

Might have miss-remembered the name. Aladin/prince of Persia vibe.

[Max_Killjoy]

I didn't see Al-Quadin

Might have miss-remembered the name. Aladin/prince of Persia vibe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qadim

Technically part of "Forgotten Realms".

One of my favorite settings published in the D&D tree, in part because it was neither Europe Mashnup (yay more knights and wizards) nor Japan/China Mashup (yay more ninjas and martial artists and samurai).

[Quertus]

Several comments have brought up AD&D 1e vs AD&D 2e, which raises a question:

How much mechanical difference was there between those two systems? Small and mostly interoperable (like 3e and 3.5e) or major (like anything and 4e)? If there was enough of a setting-related difference to require metaplot changes to explain it (FR and Dragonlance), it seems like it was larger than I thought.

I guess it depends on who you ask. Ranger got 2d8 HP at first level. Try telling the party Fighter who rolled a "1" for HP that this 1e Ranger should be part of the same game.

How does that compare to 2e Lightning Bolts bouncing off walls, 2e Fireballs filling a volume, and 2e Fighters getting full BAB on iterative attacks vs 3e? Probably about the same amount of difference.

But 3e uses its set leveling, level adjustment, skill points, etc, which is vastly different from the sameness of 2e & 1e in their individual XP tables, and stat check optional proficiency system of 2e vs stat check or player skills in 1e.

[Thrudd]

Several comments have brought up AD&D 1e vs AD&D 2e, which raises a question:

How much mechanical difference was there between those two systems? Small and mostly interoperable (like 3e and 3.5e) or major (like anything and 4e)? If there was enough of a setting-related difference to require metaplot changes to explain it (FR and Dragonlance), it seems like it was larger than I thought.

Differences were more significant than a lot of people imply, IMO. It is true that many of us blended them together with house rules picking and choosing elements from both, but you can't by any objective measure call them the same game. There's a reason there had to be metaplot changes.

Not even mentioning the later 2e supplements and splats which make the game closer to 3e than to 1e in a lot of ways.

[oxybe]

I swear I have seen images of a Diablo II book for either third edition or one of these bizarre pre-third editions that I don't know the abbreviations of.

funny story: the hub site for this is actually still up on WotC's servers among other stuff (the links on the left, some of which don't work but a lot do), which can go as far back as articles written in 2004 and image galleries from 2001. it's a neat look at some of the older pre-2008 3rd ed content.

http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/main.asp?x=d2/diabloii,3

[Kitten Champion]

I swear I have seen images of a Diablo II book for either third edition or one of these bizarre pre-third editions that I don't know the abbreviations of.

That was actually the first TTRPG I played. not that I can say much about it that I remembered beyond it was very dungeon-crawly. I played it during a sleep-over at a friend's place without anyone there really knowing what we were doing, but I recall it being pretty simplistic, having pre-genned characters, and you could make up and lay out a dungeon really easily. I don't think it had that it had terribly much in the way of exploring Sanctuary as a setting for RP purposes though.

Apparently it's 2nd Edition D&D.

[Florian]

One of my favorite settings published in the D&D tree, in part because it was neither Europe Mashnup (yay more knights and wizards) nor Japan/China Mashup (yay more ninjas and martial artists and samurai).

Loved that setting and the (few) boxed sets they churned out for it, that was actually quality way above the usual TSR fare, but cramming it into the Realms and using AD&D 2nd were atrocities, if you ask me.

[LibraryOgre]

Several comments have brought up AD&D 1e vs AD&D 2e, which raises a question:

How much mechanical difference was there between those two systems? Small and mostly interoperable (like 3e and 3.5e) or major (like anything and 4e)? If there was enough of a setting-related difference to require metaplot changes to explain it (FR and Dragonlance), it seems like it was larger than I thought.

I'd say the comparison between 3.0 and 3.5 is apt, but it felt like a massive change, and represented a metaplot break for the two biggest settings. Planescape created the modern conception of the Planes, in a lot of ways, making itself a metaplot break from 1e's take on the Outer Planes. Dark Sun integrated an entirely different psionics system than was in 1e. Whereas, when they switched from 3.0 to 3.5, there was a bit of a "Meh, you'll work it out" reaction.


I didn't see Al-Quadin


I mentioned it above, but not by the name Al-Qadim; Land of Fate, Zakhara, and Arabian Adventures were all names for it.

[Max_Killjoy]

Loved that setting and the (few) boxed sets they churned out for it, that was actually quality way above the usual TSR fare, but cramming it into the Realms and using AD&D 2nd were atrocities, if you ask me.


I lopped it off Realms and used it as inspiration for running in another system. The concepts and ideas were better than the mechanics.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Thanks everyone for the responses.

My conclusions so far:

1) Man TSR published a lot of settings.
2) D&D settings rarely survive substantial edition changes, and when they do they're rarely intact.
2a) Small settings without lots of fan support just die.
2b) Small settings with fan support get assimilated (borg style) into other settings, usually retconing the pieces that don't fit. Examples: Al Quadim, Blackmoor, Kara Tur.
2c) Larger settings that aren't top priority get cannibalized for spare parts for other settings. Examples: Planescape, spelljammer, Greyhawk.
2d) Settings with strong meta-plots (Dragonlance, FR) progress by meta-plot updates and timeskips.
2e) Settings with weaker meta-plots (or those with less following) get "updated" by retcon (Eberron 4e, Dark Sun 4e).

The only edition transition that did not involve huge changes in either metaplot or setting reality was FR in the AD&D 2e -> 3e transition. All others either died out entirely or experienced large-scale changes at each transition.

Now to widen the question:

What about non-D&D settings? Do they tend to survive more-or-less intact between editions?

WoD: Got completely blown up and started over. Essentially no continuity.
Exalted: Metaplot changes? Dunno beyond that.
L5R: I know they do metaplot and timeskips, but I don't know if it matches edition transitions.
TDE: Heavy metaplot, but on a faster time-scale?
Others? I know most of the FATE games don't have a fixed setting. GURPS doesn't have a fixed setting. Traveller? WH40k (although that universe is continually in a state of retcon, so :shrug:)

[Max_Killjoy]

What about non-D&D settings? Do they tend to survive more-or-less intact between editions?

WoD: Got completely blown up and started over. Essentially no continuity.
L5R: I know they do metaplot and timeskips, but I don't know if it matches edition transitions.


WoD: before the big reset going to nWoD, the "metaplot", um, "advanced" as the various games and editions of those games in oWoD and supplements were published.
L5R: much of the metaplot and "living history" of the game was driven by tournament results, etc, from the CCG, even within individual editions. The 4th edition was somewhat "era agnostic" and didn't assume you'd be playing "in the present" of the official created history or that if you started your campaign halfway through history that you'd adhere to the established "future" from that point forward.

[PhoenixPhyre]

WoD: before the big reset going to nWoD, the "metaplot", um, "advanced" as the various games and editions of those games in oWoD and supplements were published.
L5R: much of the metaplot and "living history" of the game was driven by tournament results, etc, from the CCG, even within individual editions. The 4th edition was somewhat "era agnostic" and didn't assume you'd be playing "in the present" of the official created history or that if you started your campaign halfway through history that you'd adhere to the established "future" from that point forward.

But did the WoD changes ripple between splats? I mean that if you were playing a Mage campaign and a new Werewolf suppliment came out, did that change the (understood) setting for your game? Or were they pretty much inter-game-line agnostic?

The L5R is what I thought--changes happened "off-interval" and changes were much smoother (fewer "massive event that radically changes the setting" instances, unlike, for example the Spellplague or the Time of Troubles in FR).

[Max_Killjoy]

But did the WoD changes ripple between splats? I mean that if you were playing a Mage campaign and a new Werewolf suppliment came out, did that change the (understood) setting for your game? Or were they pretty much inter-game-line agnostic?

The L5R is what I thought--changes happened "off-interval" and changes were much smoother (fewer "massive event that radically changes the setting" instances, unlike, for example the Spellplague or the Time of Troubles in FR).


WoD: at first, it was fairly isolated to each line and was more about growing the setting than advancing a metaplot; this slowly changed over the years to the point where everything affected everything and official events mattered more than official places and characters.

[PhoenixPhyre]

WoD: at first, it was fairly isolated to each line and was more about growing the setting than advancing a metaplot; this slowly changed over the years to the point where everything affected everything and official events mattered more than official places and characters.

A metaplot metastasis, to coin a phrase?

[Florian]

The L5R is what I thought--changes happened "off-interval" and changes were much smoother (fewer "massive event that radically changes the setting" instances, unlike, for example the Spellplague or the Time of Troubles in FR).

L5R 1st to 3rd always came tied to the then current era of the meta plot (Pre Coup, Clan War, Four Winds), while 4th radically divorced rules and meta plot. Imperial Histories I and II basically cover the plot for playing from the earliest days of the empire, to alternate histories and the coming future.

Might be next to unknown in the U.S., but when you're interested in how settings work, take a look at Das Schwarze Auge (DSA) and the base setting of Aventurien. This is more or less a "living campaign" setting, that, similar to L5R/Rokugan, includes everything ever written, the results of the "game of thrones" and tournaments, has been evolving along with the game for 30 years now and is developed in "real time", meaning each RL year will cover two in game years worth of material and campaigns. It is basically a "shared world" setting, with a lot of stuff having a "hands off" tag attached to it and groups generally are loath to either make changes, "make it their own" or play against established archetypes.

[hamishspence]

Started in AD&D 1st edition, updated to 2nd edition. Late 2e saw the "metaplot update" and change to the SAGA system. Otherwise correct. I would call draconians as being aesthetic and spiritual predecessors to 4e's Dragonborn, especially those from Weis and Perrin's Doom Brigade novels.


4e did provide stats for Draconians in Draconomicon 2: Metallic Dragons. Cyan Bloodbane, one of the Dragonlance villains, also got statted in Draconomicon 1: Chromatic Dragons.

Minotaurs in 4e are also "Dragonlance-style" in being Medium, and less evil - more viable as a PC race.

[BWR]

Since you have Thunder Rift on its own there, when Escape from Thunder Rift places it *somewhere* in the Known World, you should have Red Steel/Savage Coast. Originally a BECMI module, expanded and altered in 2e to its own setting, further west on the continent of Brun, where the rest of the Known World of Mystara is located.
Also, Hollow World, a brief attempt at exploring the interior of Mystara. For BECMI, got three supplements and four adventures, then was abandoned.

[DavidSh]

So the Blackmoor supplement to original Dungeons and Dragons didn't actually describe the Blackmoor setting? It's been decades since I looked at the pamphlet.

[LibraryOgre]

Thanks everyone for the responses.

My conclusions so far:

1) Man TSR published a lot of settings.
2) D&D settings rarely survive substantial edition changes, and when they do they're rarely intact.
2a) Small settings without lots of fan support just die.
2b) Small settings with fan support get assimilated (borg style) into other settings, usually retconing the pieces that don't fit. Examples: Al Quadim, Blackmoor, Kara Tur.
2c) Larger settings that aren't top priority get cannibalized for spare parts for other settings. Examples: Planescape, spelljammer, Greyhawk.
2d) Settings with strong meta-plots (Dragonlance, FR) progress by meta-plot updates and timeskips.
2e) Settings with weaker meta-plots (or those with less following) get "updated" by retcon (Eberron 4e, Dark Sun 4e).

The only edition transition that did not involve huge changes in either metaplot or setting reality was FR in the AD&D 2e -> 3e transition. All others either died out entirely or experienced large-scale changes at each transition.


I think the conclusion from 1 is a bit flawed. TSR *DID* produce a lot of settings, but that was a big part of their output for 2nd edition. One of the main reasons the 1e/2e split is important is because 1e was primarily module-oriented in production. "Here is an adventure. Run it for your players." 2e switched to be a lot more player-oriented in production, which lead to the various splatbooks (The Complete Line), and to the proliferation of campaign settings... because it's more likely that several people in a group will buy a campaign setting than it is an adventure.

I am also not sure how much 2b is true; I don't have the original Arabian Adventures stuff, so I don't know if it did was intended to be part of FR at first or not (a comment from Wikipedia indicates that it was supposed to be part of the Realms (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qadim#Publication)), and Maztica explicitly was. Ravenloft was long presented as being a cannibalized setting with links to other worlds (most clearly starting with Knight of the Black Rose creating an explicitly Dragonlance domain), and the nature of Planescape was that it could easily overlie any setting with the Great Wheel cosmology.

As for "updated by retcon", I would argue that Dark Sun HAD a very strong metaplot... its just that its metaplot largely sucked. The Prism Pentad was released as being the foundational book series for the setting... but it completely rewrote the setting, killing several Sorcerer-Kings and undermining a lot of the game's development. The Retcon in 4e was "Let's kinda ignore everything after the first book or two", which is where the fans tended to draw the line, anyway.

[Max_Killjoy]

I'll dig out the material tonight if I get a chance, but as far as I recall, Al Qadim was ALWAYS supposed to be part of "the realms", on the far southern edge of the "main" continent.

[GungHo]

I'll dig out the material tonight if I get a chance, but as far as I recall, Al Qadim was ALWAYS supposed to be part of "the realms", on the far southern edge of the "main" continent.

This was my recollection as well. It was always placed at the bottom of the continental divide between Faerun and Kara Tur when they showed maps of it. However, I may be mis-remembering when it was actually mapped. I remember there was a a hardbound book (Al-Qadim, Arabian Adventures) and a boxed set (Al-Qadim, Land of Fate). I know the set had a lot of maps, but I don't have the book to cross check. I do remember the book was a lot more "Generic" in how it presented things with the boxed set being a "ok, now here's what you can do with it" supplement with a gazetteer, maps, adventure.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I think the conclusion from 1 is a bit flawed. TSR *DID* produce a lot of settings, but that was a big part of their output for 2nd edition. One of the main reasons the 1e/2e split is important is because 1e was primarily module-oriented in production. "Here is an adventure. Run it for your players." 2e switched to be a lot more player-oriented in production, which lead to the various splatbooks (The Complete Line), and to the proliferation of campaign settings... because it's more likely that several people in a group will buy a campaign setting than it is an adventure.

I am also not sure how much 2b is true; I don't have the original Arabian Adventures stuff, so I don't know if it did was intended to be part of FR at first or not (a comment from Wikipedia indicates that it was supposed to be part of the Realms (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qadim#Publication)), and Maztica explicitly was. Ravenloft was long presented as being a cannibalized setting with links to other worlds (most clearly starting with Knight of the Black Rose creating an explicitly Dragonlance domain), and the nature of Planescape was that it could easily overlie any setting with the Great Wheel cosmology.

As for "updated by retcon", I would argue that Dark Sun HAD a very strong metaplot... its just that its metaplot largely sucked. The Prism Pentad was released as being the foundational book series for the setting... but it completely rewrote the setting, killing several Sorcerer-Kings and undermining a lot of the game's development. The Retcon in 4e was "Let's kinda ignore everything after the first book or two", which is where the fans tended to draw the line, anyway.

#1 was an observation--I hadn't realized how many of the "well known" settings dated to that era (and hadn't really been updated since then).

The thing with Planescape is that while it (in principle) could overlay any other Great Wheel setting, it never did in published material for other editions (to the best of my knowledge). That is, the material was used somewhat piecemeal elsewhere (Sigil got name-dropped, creature names got reused with modifications to their behavior and lore, but the core factions and interplays really didn't get reused in "canon" 3e+ material).

This seems different from settings which either remain independent published material with significant changes between editions (FR, Eberron, Dragonlance) or that got completely sucked in and placed somewhere else (Blackmoor).


I'll dig out the material tonight if I get a chance, but as far as I recall, Al Qadim was ALWAYS supposed to be part of "the realms", on the far southern edge of the "main" continent.


This was my recollection as well. It was always placed at the bottom of the continental divide between Faerun and Kara Tur when they showed maps of it. However, I may be mis-remembering when it was actually mapped. I remember there was a a hardbound book (Al-Qadim, Arabian Adventures) and a boxed set (Al-Qadim, Land of Fate). I know the set had a lot of maps, but I don't have the book to cross check. I do remember the book was a lot more "Generic" in how it presented things with the boxed set being a "ok, now here's what you can do with it" supplement with a gazetteer, maps, adventure.

That's not the impression I had gotten from a cursory read of documents referring to them, but I'll defer to the experts (ie those who actually have read the source material) :smallsmile: