Why does a Barbarian get Trap Sense?

[Zaq]

(No, "to trade for Trapkiller" isn't what I'm looking for.)

I know that trying to divine RAI or design principles from the final work (especially an early book like the PHB relative to the greater 3.5 canon) is a risky proposition, but I feel like doing it anyway. From a design perspective, when they were writing the PHB, why did they give the Barbarian Trap Sense? I mean, Trap Sense is already a nearly pointless ability that's only barely worth tracking (it does not meaningfully affect a character's power level 99% of the time), but at least it kind of makes sense on the Rogue, given that the Rogue was the only core class with Trapfinding and TS fits in nicely with Evasion. What I don't see is why, either from a thematic perspective or a design perspective, it makes sense for a Barbarian to be good at dodging traps, if for no other reason than that the PHB otherwise went so far to protect the Rogue's "niche" of being The Trap Guy, not that such weird niche protection was necessarily good.

I could kind of see it on a Ranger, since a Ranger is allegedly supposed to be a savvy adventurer with an excellent awareness of their surroundings (and they're also the only non-Rogue class in the PHB to get Search). I could see it on a Monk, since they've got the whole "I can dodge things I shouldn't be able to dodge" deal going on—ignore the fact that a Monk's AC is garbage; it's clearly an intended thematic effect, and the devs didn't acknowledge that the Monk is awful at not getting hit—and they also get Evasion. It's not even extraordinarily stupid to see it on a Paladin, as their faith might protect them from devious and underhanded tactics like traps. (There's nothing in the existing PHB Paladin section that says something similar, but again, it's not actually any less sensible than on the Barb.) But it just feels weird on the Barb, and I can't figure out exactly what they were going for. The Barb doesn't even get a good Reflex save.

It's also a little weird that the Barb and the Rogue get TS at exactly the same level and with exactly the same progression. Other than basically familiars and, such as it is, spells, almost no two PHB classes otherwise get the exact same ability at the exact same level in the exact same way. (Evasion is basically the exception that proves the rule.) The devs otherwise seemed to be kind of afraid of that. They always seemed to want to put one class behind in levels (Rogue Uncanny Dodge vs. Barb Uncanny Dodge, Ranger Evasion vs. Monk/Rogue Evasion, Ranger Woodland Stride vs. Druid Woodland Stride) or behind in strength (Ranger Animal Companion and Wild Empathy vs. Druid Animal Companion and Wild Empathy, Paladin Turn Undead vs. Cleric Turn Undead). But the Barbarian and the Rogue are exactly perfectly matched in Trap Sense. It's not a problem per se (if we start from the premise that both should indeed have the ability, there's no particular reason why one needs to be better at it than the other), but it breaks the pattern.

The only other particular commonality between the PHB Barb and the PHB Rogue that I find to be worth mentioning is that they both get Uncanny Dodge (the Barb earlier than the Rogue, even), which I guess is kinda-sorta related to "reacting to something you didn't expect"? I mean, in my mind, Evasion is a closer match for that than UD is, though it's not like UD is a weak ability. So I guess the closest thing to an answer that I'm willing to leave this with right now is "both classes get TS because both classes get UD, and therefore both classes are thought of as having a sixth sense when it comes to danger," but I still find that to be rather unsatisfying.

I doubt it'll be possible to find "the true answer" to this conundrum, and it's not like it's actually hurting anything to have Trap Sense on the Barbarian. It's not like Trap Sense is being "denied" to a more worthy class, or like it makes anything overpowered, or like it particularly hurts the game in any meaningful way to have the Barbarian be slightly better at dodging traps. But it strikes me as sufficiently odd that we might be able to have a conversation about it.

[Celestia]

Because Conan the Barbarian was good at it.

[heavyfuel]

Because Conan the Barbarian was good at it.

I feel like that's the answer to literally every question of "why do core barbarians get this?"

This includes DR, Trap Sense, no Heavy Armor, Uncanny Dodge, and maybe Fast Movement

[Grod_The_Giant]

Because Conan the Barbarian was good at it.
That would be my guess as well. For all the Conan was probably a Rogue/Fighter.

[Karl Aegis]

They went over this in one of the Dragon Magazines. Trap Sense was originally part of Uncanny Dodge, but they separated it out so it looked like the classes with Uncanny Dodge had less dead levels.

[Celestia]

I feel like that's the answer to literally every question of "why do core barbarians get this?"

This includes DR, Trap Sense, no Heavy Armor, Uncanny Dodge, and maybe Fast Movement
Ironically, Conan would probably be better represented as a fighter//rogue gestalt with a ranger dip for tracking.


They went over this in one of the Dragon Magazines. Trap Sense was originally part of Uncanny Dodge, but they separated it out so it looked like the classes with Uncanny Dodge had less dead levels.
That is both hilarious and depressing.

[Venger]

The rules text for monk and rogue evasion is identical. What are you talking about? Was there errata or similar later on?

[The Viscount]

The dead level aspect I think might be the strongest argument. It is notable that every level where you gain an improvement of trap sense, there is nothing else being gained. Perhaps they felt really close to having filled the levels, but they felt that barbarian was strong enough already so gave it a filler ability so every level has something, but it's not really made more effective.

[Seharvepernfan]

I feel like that's the answer to literally every question of "why do core barbarians get this?"

This includes DR, Trap Sense, no Heavy Armor, Uncanny Dodge, and maybe Fast Movement

Exactly true. The barbarian class was made to model conan.


Ironically, Conan would probably be better represented as a fighter//rogue gestalt with a ranger dip for tracking.

That's almost exactly what he originally was, as per gygax himself:

http://i66.tinypic.com/34ilf5u.jpg

[Morty]

Exactly true. The barbarian class was made to model conan.

Except for the part where he never exhibited the barbarian class' most central feature.

[Seharvepernfan]

Except for the part where he never exhibited the barbarian class' most central feature.

You mean being the strongest/toughest/angriest guy in the room and resistant to mental influence? Okay.

[emeraldstreak]

The true primary classes are Fighter/Thief/Cleric/Wizard. Many others are derived from them, either by mixing (thief+fighter=barbarian) or by flavoring (cleric+nature=druid).

[Morty]

You mean being the strongest/toughest/angriest guy in the room and resistant to mental influence? Okay.

I mean, as you are perfectly aware, the berserker rage that forms the core of the barbarian class.

[XionUnborn01]

I think it plays off the fact that barbarians are supposed to be hunters in the wild so they're used to dodging pits/tripping branches, etc. Along with the fact that they're supposed to be fairly agile with their light armor and able to dodge things pretty well.

[Elkad]

Because Conan the Barbarian was good at it.

Fafhrd spent all that time hanging out with Grey Mouser, so it rubbed off on him too.

[Seharvepernfan]

I mean, as you are perfectly aware, the berserker rage that forms the core of the barbarian class.

That's what I said.

[lesser_minion]

As far as 3.0 was concerned, Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense were the same thing, as mentioned above. The 3.0 DMG also mentions that barbarians were given uncanny dodge as part of a package deal to help compensate for their lack of fighter bonus feats, which were ostensibly way more powerful.

One of the things 3.5 changed was to present non-numerical improvements to class features as whole new class features, hence "Improved Uncanny Dodge", "Trap Sense", "Greater Rage", "Tireless Rage" etc., and they presumably saw no reason to remove any of those improvements from most classes.

[BowStreetRunner]

The rules text for monk and rogue evasion is identical. What are you talking about? Was there errata or similar later on?
Well, everyone here is mostly talking about Barbarians and Trap Sense, with a little bit of discussion of Uncanny Dodge. Some people are also talking about Conan the Barbarian and how he was probably multi-classed into Rogue.

But it's nice to know that Monk and Rogue evasion is identical. I'll store that little nugget away for future reference. If there was errata or something I am not aware.

:smallbiggrin:

[Elkad]

I mean, as you are perfectly aware, the berserker rage that forms the core of the barbarian class.

Which is a later addition.

Dragon#63 and 1e:UA barbs got innate (and always on) detect magic and illusion and double dex bonus to AC.

2e barbs barely got anything.

Only in 3rd did they change from somewhere between a swashbuckler and a ranger to a frothing-at-the-mouth killing machine.
Which was pretty much a direct abandonment of Conan, Fafhrd, and all the other literature barbs.

[Morty]

Which is a later addition.

Dragon#63 and 1e:UA barbs got innate (and always on) detect magic and illusion and double dex bonus to AC.

2e barbs barely got anything.

Only in 3rd did they change from somewhere between a swashbuckler and a ranger to a frothing-at-the-mouth killing machine.
Which was pretty much a direct abandonment of Conan, Fafhrd, and all the other literature barbs.

That's true, yes. I remember something along those lines, but I'm not very familiar with those early editions. Features like that are much more in line with the archetypal barbarian heroes.

[Zaq]

The rules text for monk and rogue evasion is identical. What are you talking about? Was there errata or similar later on?

Monks can only use Evasion when unarmored. Rogues can use it in light armor. EDIT: I clearly don’t know what I’m talking about.

[heavyfuel]

Monks can only use Evasion when unarmored. Rogues can use it in light armor.

Just checked my Player's Handbook. That's not true. Monks can use evasion in light or no armor

[Zaq]

Just checked my Player's Handbook. That's not true. Monks can use evasion in light or no armor

I clearly don’t know what I’m talking about. You are correct and I was entirely mistaken. I’ll edit accordingly.

[Nifft]

Just checked my Player's Handbook. That's not true. Monks can use evasion in light or no armor

As an aside, the SRD also agrees, so I think this was never errata'd: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#monkEvasion

[Karl Aegis]

It's Ninja Evasion that is the worse one. Most other classes refer to the Monk Evasion ability without altering it.

[The Viscount]

It's a little strange that monk evasion functions in light armor since other features require unarmored, and monk doesn't have armor proficiency. Probably a matter of them writing the text once for ranger and rogue and then not caring.

[tedcahill2]

The barbarian class was meant to represent a fighter type for cultures that didn't have formal military training, tribes and such.

I think Uncanny dodge and trap sense represent their focus on using instinct over training in combat.

[emeraldstreak]

It's a little strange that monk evasion functions in light armor since other features require unarmored, and monk doesn't have armor proficiency. Probably a matter of them writing the text once for ranger and rogue and then not caring.

Or maybe they cared and that's one and the same ability works the same way.

[Flickerdart]

Isn't it obvious? Rogues may have Trapfinding, but the barbarian's high HP makes him the party's natural secondary trap finder.

[Bohandas]

I feel like that's the answer to literally every question of "why do core barbarians get this?"

This includes DR, Trap Sense, no Heavy Armor, Uncanny Dodge, and maybe Fast Movement

Even down to the fact that they're called a barbarian rather than a berserker despite their main ability being rage

[Zanos]

Isn't it obvious? Rogues may have Trapfinding, but the barbarian's high HP makes him the party's natural secondary trap finder.
True facts. I always assumed they had trap sense because barbarians walk in front.

[Celestia]

Isn't it obvious? Rogues may have Trapfinding, but the barbarian's high HP makes him the party's natural secondary trap finder.
Who needs a rogue when you've got a barbarian with a ten foot pole?

[Nifft]

True facts. I always assumed they had trap sense because barbarians walk in front.

They do walk faster than other characters, so if you're playing Baldur's Gate they will often get to their green circle ahead of the other characters.

[BowStreetRunner]

They went over this in one of the Dragon Magazines. Trap Sense was originally part of Uncanny Dodge, but they separated it out so it looked like the classes with Uncanny Dodge had less dead levels.

I think it plays off the fact that barbarians are supposed to be hunters in the wild so they're used to dodging pits/tripping branches, etc. Along with the fact that they're supposed to be fairly agile with their light armor and able to dodge things pretty well.

True facts. I always assumed they had trap sense because barbarians walk in front.

They do walk faster than other characters, so if you're playing Baldur's Gate they will often get to their green circle ahead of the other characters.
All good points. So then why doesn't the Scout get Trap Sense??? I think someone owes the Scout a class feature!

[The Viscount]

Scout does have trapfinding, and is published later in the game, where they started to realize that stuff like trapsense isn't a class feature that most people enjoy. They were also likely trying to emphasize that it's totally not rogue you guys, just like the other 2 classes in complete adventurer.
Or alternatively Scout already has a class feature at every level with 8 skill points to boot. Adding trapsense on top of that would make it too strong!

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Or alternatively Scout already has a class feature at every level with 8 skill points to boot. Adding trapsense on top of that would make it too strong!
I read over the Dead Levels supplement recently and it still boggles my mind that they genuinely believed things like that. Half the features had a sidebar saying “now I know the Fighter getting +1 to door-opening checks seems CRAZY, but don’t worry! By level 18 your poor casters can probably keep up if built well!”

[The Viscount]

The Dead Levels are essentially flavor class features, and they admit as much in the write-up. The second article even admits that slow fall and trapsense are virtually useless.

[Jormengand]

But don't worry, because the barbarian "serves as one of the finest examples of character class design"!

Which is really saying something.

[ericgrau]

So few dead levels and yet, so few useful options. Ya I never believed in dead levels, who cares? Sorcs have 19 dead levels but the most fun and some of the most powerful class features on all 19 of them. A fighter that waits patiently for class features to happen every other level and still gets more interesting and useful options than a barbarian. Barbarian is a 1 level dip. A little more with ACFs and so on. I mean, an uncommon help to AC, 1 HP, and a rare save bonus, or a fighter bonus feat?

Putting uncanny dodge and trap sense together as a kind of semi-sixth sense does make sense though. Having poor reflex saves doesn't quite match, but they do tend to have a higher dex due to medium armor. But then... ranger.

[Bohandas]

The Dead Levels are essentially flavor class features, and they admit as much in the write-up. The second article even admits that slow fall and trapsense are virtually useless.

In this case though it doesn't match the flavor; it's like the strawberry in neopolitan icecream

[Ashtagon]

Except for the part where he never exhibited the barbarian class' most central feature.

You mean rage?

When the barbarian class first appeared in the AD&D Unearthed Arcana book, rage was not a class feature, nor was there anything that resembled a prototype of that class feature. The 1e barbarian was Conan writ large (except possibly for a "benefits from smashing magic items" rule that was mostly ignored). The 3e barbarian got re-written as a naked rage machine, but traces of the 1e barbarian class (such as trap sense) remained in the design.