What changes in 5e with no gods and no demons?

[Sintanan]

Something I'm playing with for an upcoming game I'm running, which is supposed to be just a couple sessions but rumors are flying between the players about turning this into something ongoing.

I want to run a campaign with no gods, demons, or angels. To add the mysterious back in, I'm planning on leaving faceless/formless ideals that are eldritch monsters and old gods. Spirits of nature are also prominent, but aren't directly worshiped. True undead and undeath is also rare --vampires are cursed, living beings. The biggest undead are more akin to magically-animated golems than soulstuff shoved into a corpse to make it walk.

Removing gods, demons, angels, and undead really hits a lot of classes hard, but I'm not too familiar on 5e to be aware of all the nuances. Anything class-wise or ability-wise I need to be aware of that is lost? For example, I know paladins have their divine sense that can detect demons and undead. Instead of those I was thinking nature spirits and eldritch monsters since it seems like it'll keep them thematic.

tl;dr what classes are hurt if there are no gods, demons, angels, or undead?

[Tiadoppler]

Summoners might have some problems from lack of things to summon.

Is there still divine magic at all? Clerics? Paladins? Divine Soul Sorcerers?

Do Fiend and Celestial Warlocks still work?

[EvilAnagram]

Oath of Devotion Paladins and Clerics have Channel Divinity options that specifically target undead and fiends. Otherwise, no big deal.

[Sintanan]

I would like divine magic to still work. I was thinking of taking a page from Eberron with how people don't worship gods themselves but get strength from their own ideals and beliefs.

For summoners... maybe switching the creatures from celestial/fiendish monsters to elemental? Rather than summon something from a different plane the summoner awakens natural spirits from nearby plants/rocks/water and gives them form?

Mechanically I would like to keep options open for the players with things like fiendish and celestial warlocks. Just figuring out where they get their power from, that's the question...

[EvilAnagram]

I would like divine magic to still work. I was thinking of taking a page from Eberron with how people don't worship gods themselves but get strength from their own ideals and beliefs.

For summoners... maybe switching the creatures from celestial/fiendish monsters to elemental? Rather than summon something from a different plane the summoner awakens natural spirits from nearby plants/rocks/water and gives them form?

Mechanically I would like to keep options open for the players with things like fiendish and celestial warlocks. Just figuring out where they get their power from, that's the question...
I think that between the feywild and shadowfell you have solid faceless representations of live and entropy, and if you throw in the elemental planes you pretty much cover everything.

The only mechanical problems I foresee are the channel divinities Turn Undead and Turn the Unholy.

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

Mechanically I would like to keep options open for the players with things like fiendish and celestial warlocks. Just figuring out where they get their power from, that's the question...

Leave it up to the player, did they make a pact with an organized religion and are powered by the peoples prayers or maybe they draw power from suffering. Let them fluff the class however they want and then you can provide plot hooks based on what they decide.

That would be my two cents.

[Kuulvheysoon]

There's also the Warlock invocation Chains of Carceri. You'd be stripping 2/3 of the utility out of it.

[Unoriginal]

You could just re-fluff demons and the like.

Ex: It's not a Balor, it's a Son of Pan.

[Sintanan]

You could just re-fluff demons and the like.

Ex: It's not a Balor, it's a Son of Pan.

I think, ultimately, this is what I'll do.

Celestials, Fiends, and Undead swapped for Abominations, Elementals, and Fey accordingly.

[CircleOfTheRock]

Something I'm playing with for an upcoming game I'm running, which is supposed to be just a couple sessions but rumors are flying between the players about turning this into something ongoing.

I want to run a campaign with no gods, demons, or angels. To add the mysterious back in, I'm planning on leaving faceless/formless ideals that are eldritch monsters and old gods. Spirits of nature are also prominent, but aren't directly worshiped. True undead and undeath is also rare --vampires are cursed, living beings. The biggest undead are more akin to magically-animated golems than soulstuff shoved into a corpse to make it walk.

Removing gods, demons, angels, and undead really hits a lot of classes hard, but I'm not too familiar on 5e to be aware of all the nuances. Anything class-wise or ability-wise I need to be aware of that is lost? For example, I know paladins have their divine sense that can detect demons and undead. Instead of those I was thinking nature spirits and eldritch monsters since it seems like it'll keep them thematic.

tl;dr what classes are hurt if there are no gods, demons, angels, or undead?
First off - can Clerics even exist?

Second - if they can, you've made a class feature they have that scales through the levels totally obsolete.

[Regitnui]

If you're removing demons, there'll still be devils and yugoloths... :smalltongue:

[Dualswinger]

Sometimes the fact they seem to have an ability where they shouldn’t can precede an interesting side quest.

If there are no gods, why can I channel this clearly divine energy?

Let the mystery of the setting plant seeds in your players minds

[Uigeadaily]

If your group were interested in playing something a little more gritty (what with all the sand), might I suggest taking a look at Athas from the Dark Sun setting?

A recent thread has some neat links to 5e conversions and class tweaks, which may be of some use.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?552332-Sunless-Citadel-in-Athas-5E

[KorvinStarmast]

If there are no gods, why can I channel this clearly divine energy?
We somehow managed in the original edition to do that. Don't let a loss of structural detail get in your way.

Look at the universe as something similar to the Star Wars universe wherein "the force" is something that a caster can tap into. No gods, but yes divine casting. There is also a passage in the DMG about (page 13) about clerics serving Forces and Philosophies (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/100888/22566) Top of the page, left hand column.
Not all divine powers need to be derived from deities ... but that is the usual genre convention/trope.

For Druids, convert their "source" to "nature itself" and likewise with the ranger. (That part is in the book already, about where druids get their power).

[Pex]

Do Good and Evil still exist as cosmic forces? If yes, you could return the Paladin's Divine Sense to its original Detect Evil, give Oathbreaker Detect Law and Chaos, and Conquest Detect Good. All Turning becomes Turn non-native to the Material Plane and undead for the few undead that exist. Religions are Philosophies for flavor text. All spells that summon celestials and fiends don't exist. Augury/Divination/Commune still work. They are glimpsing the possibilities of the future. A Celestial Warlock could have a pact with a Coatl, Ki-rin, Phoenix, or other epitome of a Good Being.

[Regitnui]

A Celestial Warlock could have a pact with a Coatl, Ki-rin, Phoenix, or other epitome of a Good Being.

Isn't this already the case? The Celestial warlock doesn't make a pact with a god, because that's what clerics are for.

[Pex]

Isn't this already the case? The Celestial warlock doesn't make a pact with a god, because that's what clerics are for.

No, they make a pact with a Celestial.

[Millstone85]

No, they make a pact with a Celestial.Which the couatl and ki-rin are.

[Regitnui]

No, they make a pact with a Celestial.

Which the couatl and ki-rin are.

Celestial is the opposite of fiend; a god is Good or Evil, but any Good-aligned outsider can be considered a celestial, whether angel, coatl, ki-rin, lillend, archon or eladrin. Though I think the latter are proto-elvish fae in this edition.

[Millstone85]

The same way the OP said "no demons" but meant "no fiends", I have a feeling he said "no angels" but meant "no celestials". I am not entirely sure of it, though.

Couatls, ki-rins, pegasi and unicorns could still be there, but as fey. Angels themselves are probably entirely out, though.

Also, because of the later comment on awakening natural spirits from nearby plants/rocks/water, I wonder if the setting uses any plane beside the Material and a Far-Realm-ish version of the Astral.

[Tetrasodium]

I would like divine magic to still work. I was thinking of taking a page from Eberron with how people don't worship gods themselves but get strength from their own ideals and beliefs.

For summoners... maybe switching the creatures from celestial/fiendish monsters to elemental? Rather than summon something from a different plane the summoner awakens natural spirits from nearby plants/rocks/water and gives them form?

Mechanically I would like to keep options open for the players with things like fiendish and celestial warlocks. Just figuring out where they get their power from, that's the question...

They do both in eberron, just nobody knows for certain if the gods exist or not & anything that seems to suggest one way also tends to suggest 5 other things. In the end, it reqally doesn't matter becasuse magic is magic & divine magic just happens to be rooted in faith or similar.
One of the most important questions relevant to the "like eberron" thing is stuff like how common do you want divine (cleric/paladin/druid) magic to be as opposed to arcane (wizard/sorcerer/warlock/bard/etc). at one end you have eberron where it's just about as common as most other settings. at the other end you have Athas(dark sun) where I don't think it exists at all or that is practically true. Also in eberron there are some areas (ie thrane) where divine magic is very common (moreso than arcane in some ways) due to it's extremely religious culture, while other regions are the inverse of that for various reasons. Where on that spectrum do you want your world/local region to fall?

What is it about demons that makes you want to be rid of them? Is it just the whole default stereotyupe of evil is evil & wants your soul/to destroy or what? in eberron (again), if a demon hails from one of the planes they are certain to be shaped to some degree by that plane toembody things relevant to that plane. here (http://keith-baker.com/dragonmarks-220-demons-and-deathless/) is a good quick little summary example of that


Are the demons of the planes connected to the fiends of Khyber? Is a balor from Fernia Khyber-spawned?

Yes and no. The progenitor wyrms created all of the planes, and some show the influence of one progenitor over the others. So a balor from Fernia is Khyber-spawned in the sense that it was created by the progenitor wyrm Khyber… but it has no innate connection to the physical Khyber found in the material plane.

Tied to this is the fact that fiends embody specific concepts. Fernia is fire. Benevolent outsiders from Fernia embody the positive aspects of fire: its light drives away the darkness; its warmth keeps us alive; it purifies wounds and drives off dangerous predators; it gives the heat that fuels the forge. Fiends of Fernia embody the negative aspects of fire. Chaotic fiends embody the terrifying destructive force of it, the uncontrollable flames that consume homes and cities. Lawful fiends embody the terrible uses fire can be put to—fire as a weapon of war or torture, harnessed as an intentional engine of destruction.

A balor of Fernia and a balor of Khyber have the same game statistics. But they represent different things. They will have very different personalities and goals, and I would personally have them be physically distinct from one another. The balor of Fernia is an embodiment of wild fire, and should be flame incarnate. The fiends of Khyber are more generally spirits of terror and pure malevolent evil; a Khyberian balor will wield fire, but it will be less fiery in its appearance, and interested in a broader range of goals; it will also owe fealty to one of the overlords of the Age of Demons, which will further determine its theme and behavior.

I have a follow up. Say that the aforementioned Balor of Fernia found its way to Eberron. Through a portal or summoning ritual or whatever. Would said Balor fall in line with one of the Overlords and its agents, or would the fiery Balor have its own agenda.

A Fernian balor embodies the terrifying chaotic destructive power of fire. As such, it might be tricked into serving the ends of an Overlord, but its prime interest will be laying waste to cities and otherwise spreading fire and fear. The key point here is that extraplanar spirits embody ideas, and that determines their goals and purpose. If there is an Overlord that offers them the opportunity to pursue their ends or help them in other ways (protection or vengeance from enemies, for example) they might ally. But there’s no innate all-Balors-must-serve-Overlord-Bob thing going on.

One of the most detailed sources on the Lords of Dust is the article Eternal Evil, written back when Dragon was a print magazine. This includes bios of six members of the Council of Ashtakala. One is a Fernian pit fiend who serves the Truth in the Darkness, and another is a Mabaran succubus allied with the Oathbreaker.

[Dr. Cliché]

Regarding Clerics and the like, why not do something similar to what happened in older editions?

Sometimes Clerics from Dragonlance would end up in Ravenloft (IIRC) - where their gods don't exist and have no power.

However, when Clerics pray for divine power, something answers.

Personally, I always found that incredibly ominous.