Three castings of Create Greater Demplane instead of Permanency?

[Jack_Simth]

This is certainly not intended, but weird stuff...
The Create Greater Demiplane (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/create-demiplane/) spell permits adding the Timeless (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/environment/the-planes/#Time) trait to a demiplane. Per the Timeless trait: "If a plane is timeless with respect to magic, any spell cast with a noninstantaneous duration is permanent until dispelled."

Additionally, Create Greater Demiplane permits expanding a plane you're already on.

So, suppose a caster:
1) Casts Create Greater Demiplane (or a lesser version) and goes to the new temporary plane.
2) Casts Create Greater Demiplane to make the plane Timeless with respect to magic.
3) Casts Create Greater Demiplane (or a lesser version) to expand the existing demiplane with a new section.

That new section from step 3 inherits the timelessness from step 2, and was cast on a timeless demiplane. Which... means it lasts until dispelled - effectively being permanent without the price of the normal permanancy spell.

Obviously not intended, and another casting of CGD would get rid of the plane (by getting rid of the timeless trait), but is this RAW?

[Caelestion]

At most, you'd make the expanded area timeless, as the other two castings would still disappear on schedule (soon followed by the third, as it would not longer be timeless).

[Jack_Simth]

At most, you'd make the expanded area timeless, as the other two castings would still disappear on schedule (soon followed by the third, as it would not longer be timeless).
When used to modify a plane rather than expanding or creating one, Create Greater Demiplane is Instant, so no worries there. So... I'd just need a fourth casting to add timelessness to the expanded section then?

[unseenmage]

To my knowledge yes, that is how that works. Our resident rules guru rules it that way at our table at least IIRC.

[Crake]

the third casting expands the demiplane, but that expanded section is also instantaneous is it not? It's the entire demiplane that's on a ticking timer, when the demiplane itself times out and collapses, the whole thing collapses, including the expanded section.

[Caelestion]

This idea of course assumes that using a spell to create a timeless plane retroactively affects the spell used to create the plane. That's a decidedly dubious interpretation and I don't think that resolving such a conflict is ever defined anywhere (for obvious reasons).

[Jack_Simth]

the third casting expands the demiplane, but that expanded section is also instantaneous is it not? It's the entire demiplane that's on a ticking timer, when the demiplane itself times out and collapses, the whole thing collapses, including the expanded section.Inherited from Create Demiplane: "You can use this spell to expand a demiplane you created with create lesser demiplane (you do not need to create an entirely new plane using this spell), in which case it has a duration of 1 day/level. "

So no, individual sections tick down separately.



This idea of course assumes that using a spell to create a timeless plane retroactively affects the spell used to create the plane. That's a decidedly dubious interpretation and I don't think that resolving such a conflict is ever defined anywhere (for obvious reasons).
Not the intent, actually. I'm assuming the original section from step 1 times out. However, the section from step 3 is on an independent timer, and was a) cast on a timeless demiplane, and b) is itself timeless, so that timer never ticks.

[Caelestion]

Except that it's not an independent demiplane, is it? It's an extension to the original timeless demiplane that no longer exists.

[Jack_Simth]

Except that it's not an independent demiplane, is it? It's an extension to the original timeless demiplane that no longer exists.
Inherited from Create Demiplane, Lesser:

If you are within the demiplane, you can add to its area by casting the spell again. Alternatively, you may cast this spell again to reset the duration of an existing area to that of your latest casting. If the duration on one area of the demiplane ends and other parts remain, creatures in the expiring area are shunted to remaining areas. If a collapsing portion of the demiplane would leave one section cut off from other sections of the demiplane (for example, if there were three areas connected in a straight line and the center part expired), the stranded sections count as separate demiplanes under your control. You may reconnect these stranded sections by casting the spell again to create a linked area between the two. (emphasis added)
So...no, not really a problem.

[Caelestion]

Well, you started the thread by saying this was clearly not RAI, so I'm not sure what else we can add.

[Jack_Simth]

Well, you started the thread by saying this was clearly not RAI, so I'm not sure what else we can add.
I want to make sure that at the same time, it is actually RAW. Getting other people to try and poke holes in a thing (and then determining whether or not they're valid, and if there's a simple way to close said holes) is one of the ways to shore up a thing (if it's largely valid in the first place).

Throw something up here, and people will attack it. Sometimes without actually reading the source material, but such things still serve to force me to stop and double-check details.

That it's apparently valid is... interesting.

[Calthropstu]

I'll take a stab at this.

Your interpretation is nether RAW nor RAI. Ultimately, it is all tied to the original casting. True, while in the plane itself, you have infinite time. But, if you leave or interact with the world outside duration will tick down as normal, ceasing to be when the original spell ceases to exist.

In no way does this allow a permanent demiplane IN RELATION TO TIME AS IT EXISTS IN THE OUTSIDE WORLD.

Inside, so long as you do not seek to advance time outside your demiplane (ie, astral projection, exiting the plane, or otherwise seeking to interact meaningfully with the multiverse at large) you do in fact have infinite time and it can be considered "permanent."

But outside, you still get a 1 day per level duration which is toed to the original casting.

Edit: further, the extension exists outside the realm of the timelessness to begin with. It may inherit the timeless quality, but even if cast from inside timelessness, the effect is outside. Keep in mind, the space for your demiplane doesn't exist until this is cast so in order for this interpretation to be correct, you must first somehow apply timelessness to space that doesn't exist which is impossible.

[Jack_Simth]

I'll take a stab at this.

Your interpretation is nether RAW nor RAI. Ultimately, it is all tied to the original casting. True, while in the plane itself, you have infinite time. But, if you leave or interact with the world outside duration will tick down as normal, ceasing to be when the original spell ceases to exist.

In no way does this allow a permanent demiplane IN RELATION TO TIME AS IT EXISTS IN THE OUTSIDE WORLD.

Inside, so long as you do not seek to advance time outside your demiplane (ie, astral projection, exiting the plane, or otherwise seeking to interact meaningfully with the multiverse at large) you do in fact have infinite time and it can be considered "permanent."

But outside, you still get a 1 day per level duration which is toed to the original casting.

Edit: further, the extension exists outside the realm of the timelessness to begin with. It may inherit the timeless quality, but even if cast from inside timelessness, the effect is outside. Keep in mind, the space for your demiplane doesn't exist until this is cast so in order for this interpretation to be correct, you must first somehow apply timelessness to space that doesn't exist which is impossible.

...

This is a sufficient departure from what "timeless" actually means in Pathfinder that it's not useful for my previously stated purpose. That said:
I would totally take this and run with it. That's not what Timeless means in Pathfinder, but spending 8 hours (2 hours on Create Lesser Demiplane, 6 hours on Create Greater Demiplane; rest is your interpretation of Timeless and doesn't eat up any Material Plane Time) to get uncapped crafting/resting time? I tend to arrange for several of the crafting feats anyway, and this generally means I can take treasure from the first half of the dungeon to shore up any weaknesses the party has to the dungeon's theme before we get to the second half.

[Caelestion]

From the way I understand this, you're still trying to get a free lunch. Is this an accurate summary?

1) Cast the Demiplane spell
2) Cast it again to make it timeless with respect to magic (clearly a broken idea and one which I thought had been fixed by errata, but apparently not)
3) Cast it a third time to expand the demiplane
4) Original timeless demiplane vanishes, leaving behind allegedly permanent section, now its own demiplane
5) Believe that remaining demiplane is still timeless, despite the fact that the timeless area is no longer in existence

If so, the only way I can see it working without violating a whole tonne of expectations about magic and magical thermodynamics:

4) Original timeless demiplane vanishes, leaving behind extended section, now its own demiplane, which now counts down duration due to longer being part of a timeless demiplane
5) Remaining section disappears on schedule, 1 day per level (?) after timeless demiplane vanishes

[zergling.exe]

From the way I understand this, you're still trying to get a free lunch. Is this an accurate summary?

1) Cast the Demiplane spell
2) Cast it again to make it timeless with respect to magic (clearly a broken idea and one which I thought had been fixed by errata, but apparently not)
3) Cast it a third time to expand the demiplane
4) Original timeless demiplane vanishes, leaving behind allegedly permanent section, now its own demiplane
5) Believe that remaining demiplane is still timeless, despite the fact that the timeless area is no longer in existence

If so, the only way I can see it working without violating a whole tonne of expectations about magic and magical thermodynamics:

4) Original timeless demiplane vanishes, leaving behind extended section, now its own demiplane, which now counts down duration due to longer being part of a timeless demiplane
5) Remaining section disappears on schedule, 1 day per level (?) after timeless demiplane vanishes

This is how I would view it as well.

[Jack_Simth]

From the way I understand this, you're still trying to get a free lunch.
Somewhat. Would you prefer that I planar bind and Dominate something that can Permanency it?

Is this an accurate summary?

1) Cast the Demiplane spell
2) Cast it again to make it timeless with respect to magic (clearly a broken idea and one which I thought had been fixed by errata, but apparently not)
3) Cast it a third time to expand the demiplane
4) Original timeless demiplane vanishes, leaving behind allegedly permanent section, now its own demiplane
5) Believe that remaining demiplane is still timeless, despite the fact that the timeless area is no longer in existence

If so, the only way I can see it working without violating a whole tonne of expectations about magic and magical thermodynamics:

4) Original timeless demiplane vanishes, leaving behind extended section, now its own demiplane, which now counts down duration due to longer being part of a timeless demiplane
5) Remaining section disappears on schedule, 1 day per level (?) after timeless demiplane vanishes
So you're suggesting that all areas must be modified individually by castings that manipulate demiplane traits (whether that's Time, Light, Seasonal, gravity, et cetera)? Interesting interpretation, but solvable within that interpretation: a 4th casting to make the second section independently Timeless.

[Caelestion]

Somewhat. Would you prefer that I planar bind and Dominate something that can Permanency it?

At least you're honest about it. :smallsmile: How you want to cheese it is up to you, but planar binding shenanigans are not really the focus of this thread.


So you're suggesting that all areas must be modified individually by castings that manipulate demiplane traits (whether that's Time, Light, Seasonal, gravity, et cetera)? Interesting interpretation, but solvable within that interpretation: a 4th casting to make the second section independently Timeless.

No, I'm saying that no amount of applying the Timeless trait to your custom demi-planes will make your original demiplane permanent without using the Permanency spell and even if you claim that the Timeless trait can then maintain the rest of the demiplane indefinitely, they will still revert back to having a duration when the original demiplane disappears. Whilst the original demiplane exists, all attached extensions should be assumed to have the same traits as the original demiplane (because obviously they are still part of the original demiplane).

[Helluin]

FWIW, I’ve always interpreted it the same way as OP did. On the other hand, I’m not sure why OP would like to get the opinions of others on something that clearly only your DM has the authority to resolve...

Even though the original demiplane cannot retroactively become timeless, this should be easy enough to get around - all you need is to use Permanency on the original demiplane after your second casting, and you can expand your demiplane without having to apply further Permanency. In fact, you can even start with a lesser create demiplane so that the Permanency is slightly cheaper.

[Calthropstu]

...

This is a sufficient departure from what "timeless" actually means in Pathfinder that it's not useful for my previously stated purpose. That said:
I would totally take this and run with it. That's not what Timeless means in Pathfinder, but spending 8 hours (2 hours on Create Lesser Demiplane, 6 hours on Create Greater Demiplane; rest is your interpretation of Timeless and doesn't eat up any Material Plane Time) to get uncapped crafting/resting time? I tend to arrange for several of the crafting feats anyway, and this generally means I can take treasure from the first half of the dungeon to shore up any weaknesses the party has to the dungeon's theme before we get to the second half.

Ah, you are correct. I read the spell but neglected to read timeless rules misremembering it as 3.5. A lot of that kind of thing with pf.

[Calthropstu]

FWIW, I’ve always interpreted it the same way as OP did. On the other hand, I’m not sure why OP would like to get the opinions of others on something that clearly only your DM has the authority to resolve...

Even though the original demiplane cannot retroactively become timeless, this should be easy enough to get around - all you need is to use Permanency on the original demiplane after your second casting, and you can expand your demiplane without having to apply further Permanency. In fact, you can even start with a lesser create demiplane so that the Permanency is slightly cheaper.

My argument is the opposite. The plane extension exists OUTSIDE the original. Whether it is cast within or not is irrelevant, the spell is outside of the original timeless aura. Whether it inherits timeless or not is also irrelevant as the plane containing timeless exists outside of the timeless trait. It has to in order to contain the timeless trait.

Your argument is akin to saying a rabbit cage is a rabbit because it contains a rabbit.

[Jack_Simth]

No, I'm saying that no amount of applying the Timeless trait to your custom demi-planes will make your original demiplane permanent without using the Permanency spell and even if you claim that the Timeless trait can then maintain the rest of the demiplane indefinitely, they will still revert back to having a duration when the original demiplane disappears. Whilst the original demiplane exists, all attached extensions should be assumed to have the same traits as the original demiplane (because obviously they are still part of the original demiplane).If a Cleric-8 uses a Bead of Karma, then proceeds to cast Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestments on the party Fighter's weapon and armor (respectively) to make them +3 (because Caster Level 12 after using the bead), do the enhancement bonuses drop down to +2 ten minutes later when the bead of karma wears off and the caster level bonus no longer exists?

FWIW, I’ve always interpreted it the same way as OP did. On the other hand, I’m not sure why OP would like to get the opinions of others on something that clearly only your DM has the authority to resolve...
A: Not planning on actually using it in a game, so there's no DM involved.
B: What, finding a new loophole isn't shiny?

Ah, you are correct. I read the spell but neglected to read timeless rules misremembering it as 3.5. A lot of that kind of thing with pf.
Timeless didn't change much between 3.5 and PF (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm#timeless)

My argument is the opposite. The plane extension exists OUTSIDE the original. Whether it is cast within or not is irrelevant, the spell is outside of the original timeless aura. Whether it inherits timeless or not is also irrelevant as the plane containing timeless exists outside of the timeless trait. It has to in order to contain the timeless trait.
Now this one is an actual interesting argument, and seems to work for exactly what you want, if the premise of where the spell resides is accepted (which will vary from table to table, but it's at least a perfectly self-consistent interpretation with no clear contradictions). Nice!

[Calthropstu]

If a Cleric-8 uses a Bead of Karma, then proceeds to cast Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestments on the party Fighter's weapon and armor (respectively) to make them +3 (because Caster Level 12 after using the bead), do the enhancement bonuses drop down to +2 ten minutes later when the bead of karma wears off and the caster level bonus no longer exists?

Different circumstances. This case, the spell itself alters. The core of the spell (namely caster level) is heightened.

Timeless is not part of the spell, but is an outside force affecting the spell much like an anti magic field. Bring the spell outside of timeless and it will begin ticking down.

[Caelestion]

If a Cleric-8 uses a Bead of Karma, then proceeds to cast Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestments on the party Fighter's weapon and armor (respectively) to make them +3 (because Caster Level 12 after using the bead), do the enhancement bonuses drop down to +2 ten minutes later when the bead of karma wears off and the caster level bonus no longer exists?

I wouldn't have thought so, but there you are using the item in (presumably) the way it is intended, rather than using a temporary spell to make further castings of the same spell permanent, even though the spell explicitly requires a casting of permanency each time to do that instead.

[Jack_Simth]

I wouldn't have thought so, but there you are using the item in (presumably) the way it is intended, rather than using a temporary spell to make further castings of the same spell permanent, even though the spell explicitly requires a casting of permanency each time to do that instead.

No, it's intended as a ten-minute buff to boost spell damage and SR penetration checks. Why would it's effects extend beyond it's duration?

[Caelestion]

Because that's how you set up the example. Are we done now?

[Jack_Simth]

Because that's how you set up the example. Are we done now?
No, as you're missing the point. It wasn't a topic jump. It was a counterexample.

With the CGD setup, you've got clear RAW that says "If a plane is timeless with respect to magic, any spell cast with a noninstantaneous duration is permanent until dispelled." You claimed that the plane "will still revert back to having a duration when the original demiplane disappears" because the bonus does. So I picked a similar thing where everyone presumes it works the exact opposite way (including you). With the plane, I have a magical effect that has a defined beneficial effect, and I use that effect on a spell; you claim that the effect on the spell does not extend past the lifespan of the original magical effect. With the bead of karma example, I have a magical effect that has a defined beneficial effect, and I use that effect on a spell; you claim that the effect on the spell does extend past the lifetime of the original magical effect. Apparently based solely on "intent", which can't really be known.