Can you fly upside down?

[SangoProduction]

I checked the fly skill and it offers no answers. Best I got is that it's a trivial DC 15 to hover.

I mean, logically, if you need to flap wings, it would not work going upside down, but otherwise, I see no reason why you can't.

[upho]

I checked the fly skill and it offers no answers. Best I got is that it's a trivial DC 15 to hover.

I mean, logically, if you need to flap wings, it would not work going upside down, but otherwise, I see no reason why you can't.Facing is generally not a thing in the rules. But in case it matters, the actual spaces a flying creature occupies is of course dependent on its body shape and how that body is positioned, meaning for example whether a humanoid is flying as if walking upright or lying down. A good example of when it does matter is actually the whirlwind ability you asked about in your other thread, since this actually has a defined top and a bottom, meaning it cannot rotate vertically.

Which side is facing left or right or sideways is however still completely irrelevant as far as the rules are concerned.

[SangoProduction]

Facing is generally not a thing in the rules. But in case it matters, the actual spaces a flying creature occupies is of course dependent on its body shape and how that body is positioned, meaning for example whether a humanoid is flying as if walking upright or lying down. A good example of when it does matter is actually the whirlwind ability you asked about in your other thread, since this actually has a defined top and a bottom, meaning it cannot rotate vertically.

Which side is facing left or right or sideways is however still completely irrelevant as far as the rules are concerned.

Yeah, I am asking specifically because of Whirlwind. I'm just assuming I can do it.

[hamishspence]

I mean, logically, if you need to flap wings, it would not work going upside down, but otherwise, I see no reason why you can't.

Some animals are notable for occasionally flying upside-down as part of displays (ravens, for example) - but in general, it's rare.

[Florian]

I checked the fly skill and it offers no answers. Best I got is that it's a trivial DC 15 to hover.

I mean, logically, if you need to flap wings, it would not work going upside down, but otherwise, I see no reason why you can't.

The rules have many of those blanks and the only real answer to it is using Rule Zero. Looking at how vast and varied the number of creatures in the Bestiaries, as well as the AP appendices are, I actually don't know if we can speak about "logically", when some critters shouldn't actually be airborne without the aid of magic. I mean, regular birds? Ok. But Dragons or flying whales? No so sure.... With things like Pixies or Gathlain, it even gets more muddled because they either lack the wing-span we´d calculate to keep them afloat (working with our physics and the math we've developed so far), or they have "fantasy wings", so....

[dude123nice]

I checked the fly skill and it offers no answers. Best I got is that it's a trivial DC 15 to hover.

I mean, logically, if you need to flap wings, it would not work going upside down, but otherwise, I see no reason why you can't.

Logically no matter how impressive the wings are, no non-avian creature should be able to fly with them because they lack other features necessary for it, like hollow bones.

[Celestia]

Logically no matter how impressive the wings are, no non-avian creature should be able to fly with them because they lack other features necessary for it, like hollow bones.
*cough*bats*cough*

[Baroncognito]

Logically no matter how impressive the wings are, no non-avian creature should be able to fly with them because they lack other features necessary for it, like hollow bones.

... Are you forgetting about things like insects and bats? Or do you just believe they shouldn't be able to fly?

[ATHATH]

... Are you forgetting about things like insects and bats? Or do you just believe they shouldn't be able to fly?
"According to all known laws of aviation, there is no way a bee should be able to fly. Its wings are too small to get its fat little body off the ground. The bee, of course, flies anyway because bees don't care what humans think is impossible."

[Baroncognito]

"According to all known laws of aviation, there is no way a bee should be able to fly. Its wings are too small to get its fat little body off the ground. The bee, of course, flies anyway because bees don't care what humans think is impossible."

"known laws of aviation" Because bees are supposed to fly like airplanes do? According to known laws of automobiles, dogs shouldn't be able to run. They have neither engines nor wheels.

[Necroticplague]

"known laws of aviation" Because bees are supposed to fly like airplanes do? According to known laws of automobiles, dogs shouldn't be able to run. They have neither engines nor wheels.

Actually, that is the exact origin of that quote. Some back-of-napkin calculations using equations for fixed wing aircrafts shows bees don’t produce nearly enough lift with their tiny wings. Fortunately for bees, they don’t fly the same way fixed wing aircraft do.

[Celestia]

Actually, that is the exact origin of that quote. Some back-of-napkin calculations using equations for fixed wing aircrafts shows bees don’t produce nearly enough lift with their tiny wings. Fortunately for bees, they don’t fly the same way fixed wing aircraft do.
Also, fortunately for bees, we don't even fully understand lift. Airplanes are like bicyles: we know how to build them to work, but we don't know why they work. (Incidentally, I find it to be a hilarious coincidence that the first airplane was invented by two guys who owned a bicycle repair shop.)

[grarrrg]

Also, fortunately for bees, we don't even fully understand lift. Airplanes are like bicyles: we know how to build them to work, but we don't know why they work.

Flight is easy, you just throw the airplane at the ground and miss.

[Celestia]

Flight is easy, you just throw the airplane at the ground and miss.
Well sure, but the ground only has an AC of 5, so you gotta roll really low to miss it.

[upho]

Yeah, I am asking specifically because of Whirlwind. I'm just assuming I can do it.Note that there are no rules for this, which means the game assumes you're always in the "inverted funnel" position. However, the rules do allow you to lie down, but whether doing so while flying means you still take the normal penalties for being prone is a fuzzy area, since the prone condition only applies to creatures with a land speed using some kind legs and feet.

One the one hand, you have a fly speed so you can move in three dimensions, so you should be free to rotate along either axis. On the other hand, you're a whirlwind, and one of their RL key features is that their narrow base never points anywhere else than towards the center of gravity. Personally, as a GM I'd most likely rule that you cannot alter that key feature simply because you also have a fly speed.

Note also that regardless of whether you have the ability to rotate vertically, if you want to create a "cloud of debris", per RAW your smallest surface area (your base) must touch the ground. Meaning you cannot create a larger cloud of debris by for example turning yourself upside down or by lying on your side in a "knocked-over traffic cone"-manner, and neither can you create clouds by having your base touch a surface area other than the ground.


Logically no matter how impressive the wings are, no non-avian creature should be able to fly with them because they lack other features necessary for it, like hollow bones.Logically, that logic doesn't fly as it's not logical according to the logic of PF's (sometimes) logical invented rules or the logic of RL's (much less) logical natural rules. So your logic is doubly illogical. But that logically means that instead of crashing to the ground as one might logically believe logic dictates, because the logical sum of two negatives is a positive, your logic being doubly illogical logically makes it perfectly logical and does actually fly according to logic. Even though it logically cannot have wings. Follow my logic?

[upho]

Also, fortunately for bees, we don't even fully understand lift. Airplanes are like bicyles: we know how to build them to work, but we don't know why they work. (Incidentally, I find it to be a hilarious coincidence that the first airplane was invented by two guys who owned a bicycle repair shop.)Do you know if they ever found any clay figurines in that repair shop? Specifically of a weird vaguely humanoid obese creature, with dragon wings and squid-like tentacles around its mouth?


Flight is easy, you just throw the airplane at the ground and miss.Yep. Just ask the Great Cthulhu, that's how He does it, because He is way too fat for His tiny wings to carry Him. Even should He be classified as some kind of odd evolutionary one-shot type of bat. Or even bee.

[SangoProduction]

"known laws of aviation" Because bees are supposed to fly like airplanes do? According to known laws of automobiles, dogs shouldn't be able to run. They have neither engines nor wheels.

It's a quoted meme.

[Psyren]

Yeah, I am asking specifically because of Whirlwind. I'm just assuming I can do it.

Even if you somehow could account for this kind of facing while flying, I would say the "bottom" of a whirlwind is whichever side is closer to the source of gravity. In a gravity-less environment it simply wouldn't have one, and be shaped like a uniform cylinder or column instead.

[upho]

Even if you somehow could account for this kind of facing while flying, I would say the "bottom" of a whirlwind is whichever side is closer to the source of gravity.Exactly.


In a gravity-less environment it simply wouldn't have one, and be shaped like a uniform cylinder or column instead.I'd might just start crying if a player actually decided to use this chunk of Swiss cheese design in a micro-gravity environment in my games. That would just be mean.

[Celestia]

Do you know if they ever found any clay figurines in that repair shop? Specifically of a weird vaguely humanoid obese creature, with dragon wings and squid-like tentacles around its mouth?
Hmm. I'm not too knowledgeable about history, so I don't know. But it wouldn't surprise me. Ohio is basically the same as Massachusetts, right?