Can whirlwinds do anything but whirl wind around?

[SangoProduction]

I read up on Storm Kindler, (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/master-of-storms/) which allows you to transform in to a freaking whirlwind (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules/#Whirlwind_Su)! lel. Anyway, I just find that...incredible amusing and am no doubt about to make a rambly build guide on becoming the Hero of the Storm momentarily.

But, crucially, it doesn't say basically anything about the rules for the whirlwind'ing creature itself itself. It doesn't say that it's locked out of its normal action set, aside from 'normal attacks'. Does that mean that whirlwinders can still use standard actions that aren't 'normal attacks'? What is a 'normal attack'? Does grapple count? What about chugging a potion, or casting a spell?

Also, where/what is the creature? Is it the *entire* funnel of wind, or is it just the 5ft square that serves as its base?


...Side question. I notice that becoming a whirlwind doesn't grant any sort of DR innately. So...like...a tornado takes full damage from someone stabbing it???

[upho]

But, crucially, it doesn't say basically anything about the rules for the whirlwind'ing creature itself itself. It doesn't say that it's locked out of its normal action set, aside from 'normal attacks'. Does that mean that whirlwinders can still use standard actions that aren't 'normal attacks'? What is a 'normal attack'? Does grapple count? What about chugging a potion, or casting a spell?AFAICT the only attacks you can make are those specified in the rules for the whirlwind ability. Meaning those attacks replace those you would normally be able to make. So no grappling. Chugging potions and casting non-attack spells might be possible, oddly enough. I'm saying "might", because I believe it's likely the answers to questions such whether you actually have any limbs and whether those are capable of holding items or providing somatic components will be dependent on GM interpretation. So YMMV.


Also, where/what is the creature? Is it the *entire* funnel of wind, or is it just the 5ft square that serves as its base?Nothing indicates that the creature would be anywhere or anything other than the entire "funnel of wind". IOW, the creature is the whirlwind.


...Side question. I notice that becoming a whirlwind doesn't grant any sort of DR innately. So...like...a tornado takes full damage from someone stabbing it???Weird, but yes, as written this appears to be the case. Though I actually suspect this is yet another forgotten gap in the mechanics and not intended.

I have to say that this ability, while very cool and flavorful, has poorly written crunch leaving huge gaps in its mechanics. It's as if half of the rules were somehow lost in edit. As a GM, I feel I'd need to first fill the gaps with my own rules before the PrC can be used in play.

[SangoProduction]

I'm saying "might", because I believe it's likely the answers to questions such whether you actually have any limbs and whether those are capable of holding items or providing somatic components will be dependent on GM interpretation. So YMMV..

I mean...it probably assumes the user is an air elemental, which is 'amorphous' and thus has Schrodinger's Limbs/Body, and simply never comes up. But, based on the fact that it doesn't change the rules on those bits, then it probably doesn't.

[Florian]

I read up on Storm Kindler, (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/master-of-storms/) which allows you to transform in to a freaking whirlwind (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/universal-monster-rules/#Whirlwind_Su)! lel. Anyway, I just find that...incredible amusing and am no doubt about to make a rambly build guide on becoming the Hero of the Storm momentarily.

But, crucially, it doesn't say basically anything about the rules for the whirlwind'ing creature itself itself. It doesn't say that it's locked out of its normal action set, aside from 'normal attacks'. Does that mean that whirlwinders can still use standard actions that aren't 'normal attacks'? What is a 'normal attack'? Does grapple count? What about chugging a potion, or casting a spell?

Also, where/what is the creature? Is it the *entire* funnel of wind, or is it just the 5ft square that serves as its base?


...Side question. I notice that becoming a whirlwind doesn't grant any sort of DR innately. So...like...a tornado takes full damage from someone stabbing it???

You're overthinking this. The universal monster ability "Whirlwind" and a "Tornado" are not the same things, not even close.
You transform, you basically loose your bodily shape (including stuff that would work with Wild Shape), you're still part of the regular actions but can only ever use either the power granted by "Whirlwind", or anything you can use without a body.

Anecdotally, had a player in Jade Regent with a Weather domain-based Druid going into Storm Kindler, using a combination of Control Weather and Whirlwind to make Call Lighting/Call Lightning Storm more effective.

[Angrith]

Also, with still, silent, and eschew materials, you should be able to cast any spell that doesn't require a focus.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/#TOC-Casting-Spells

[upho]

You're overthinking this. The universal monster ability "Whirlwind" and a "Tornado" are not the same things, not even close.Eh... How can this be true, considering "whirlwind" is one of two common words for the weather phenomenon scientifically defined as a "tornado"?

The two words literally refer to the very same thing. (Note also that AFAICT SangoProduction doesn't refer to weather rules or anything else in PF involving the word "tornado", but simply uses the scientifically correct word for "whirlwind".)


You transform, you basically loose your bodily shape (including stuff that would work with Wild Shape), you're still part of the regular actions but can only ever use either the power granted by "Whirlwind", or anything you can use without a body.The problem is that this isn't spelled out in the rules for the specific power or the monster ability. Not in any way, shape or form. And since PF is an exceptions-based system, the basic properties of a whirlwind as a sentient creature and combatant, really have to be spelled out, on top of which of the creature's original properties that are lost in the transformation.

Of course such properties aren't important for the normal weather phenomenon the Whirlwind ability emulates, since weather phenomenons are normally nothing more than a few environmental effects. But the differences between those mechanics and those of anything in the game which is aware of its surroundings and able to perform actions in combat are pretty darn huge.

I don't think SangoProduction is overthinking this at all, but reading the rules as appropriate. And after I read up on the power and monster ability again before posting my first reply, I had pretty much the same unanswered questions. And I still do.

[Psyren]

Concerning casting while being a whirlwind, the rules only say this:


When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon.

This difficulty has come up before. Elementals can speak, so they can provide verbal components, but the other two have always been a grey area. Eschew handles material, but somatic specifically requires hands (well, 1 hand), something it's unfortunately unclear if elementals have even if you put the whirlwind stuff aside, and it gets even more muddy if you do put them in that form. So your GM will need to make a ruling.

My personal approach is that elementals can generally form hand-like appendages to work magic. But if you go into whirlwind, you lose that fine control of your form and can only cast spells that lack somatic components.

[SangoProduction]

Concerning casting while being a whirlwind, the rules only say this:



This difficulty has come up before. Elementals can speak, so they can provide verbal components, but the other two have always been a grey area. Eschew handles material, but somatic specifically requires hands (well, 1 hand), something it's unfortunately unclear if elementals have even if you put the whirlwind stuff aside, and it gets even more muddy if you do put them in that form. So your GM will need to make a ruling.

My personal approach is that elementals can generally form hand-like appendages to work magic. But if you go into whirlwind, you lose that fine control of your form and can only cast spells that lack somatic components.

Spheres of Magic actually has a ruling that allows elementals to perform somatic components, so, assuming that being used (and one of the few sources that actually grants a ruling on it, apparently), then being an elemental does not prevent casting. Indeed, most depictions (https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS556US556&biw=1440&bih=779&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=nHSwWtr8JNGSzwK8xJigCw&q=wind+elemental&oq=wind+elemental&gs_l=psy-ab.3...0.0.0.9218.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1c.. 64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.ngX09LXwB6U) of elementals include a basically humanoid upper body.

The whirlwind thing is less clear, but aside from preventing 'normal' attacks, it doesn't...appear to change anything in that regard. With what upho said in mind, then this means that it doesn't affect it. I certainly wouldn't fight a dm on such a ruling though.

[upho]

This difficulty has come up before. Elementals can speak, so they can provide verbal components, but the other two have always been a grey area. Eschew handles material, but somatic specifically requires hands (well, 1 hand), something it's unfortunately unclear if elementals have even if you put the whirlwind stuff aside, and it gets even more muddy if you do put them in that form. So your GM will need to make a ruling.

My personal approach is that elementals can generally form hand-like appendages to work magic. But if you go into whirlwind, you lose that fine control of your form and can only cast spells that lack somatic components.I use the same approach when it comes to elementals, and your take on the whirlwind ability seems very reasonable IMO.

It's unfortunate the actual rules don't say this much, and that the Storm Shape ability, as well as the associated Whirlwind monster ability, both lack the [polymorph] tag for some reason. And since the ability itself also doesn't transform you into an elemental, the polymorph rules can only serve as inspiration on how to best solve these issues.

[Psyren]

There's a quote somewhere from one of the devs (Seifter I think?) saying that stuff that transforms a PC should follow the polymorph rules unless otherwise stated. If I remember after this Nyquil fades I might try to dig it up.

[SangoProduction]

There's a quote somewhere from one of the devs (Seifter I think?) saying that stuff that transforms a PC should follow the polymorph rules unless otherwise stated. If I remember after this Nyquil fades I might try to dig it up.

OK. Cool. I look forward to it.