1st 5E Oneshot.

[Metahuman1]

So, I've got a monthly IRL group that rotates and try's different systems.

5E finally came up for this months game at the end of the month.

We started chatting about character's we might wanna try.

I was originally planning to run a Barbarian. But then we had another player mention he was looking at doing either Paladin or Barbarian, and we agreed he'd go Paladin and I'd do the Barbarian. And a second player said she wanted to try out the Horizon Walker Ranger.

And then the last player to chime in so far said she just wanted something that ran along the basic line of "Hulk Smash.". Good at that one thing so that she could do that reliably till she had a grip on how the system worked.

So, I talk'd to her and the first guy, and he decided to Run a Battle Cleric (Probably a Dragonborn and worshipping a Dragon Deity cause the dude LOVES his dragons.), and that we'd let the "Hulk Smash" character get the Barbarian, and I'd run a Paladin build, which had been my second choice because of something someone else had mentioned to me in passing.




He'd stated that Paladin Smite Evil didn't require you to use Paladin spells to fuel it, and that Warlock had a Pact of the Blade to make you better at fighting, and Charisma Based Casting were your spells came back after a short rest, thus letting you get your spells back in between fights, so you can go smite happy every fight. As someone who's predominantly 3.X edition in my D&D experience prior to this, this sounded freaking amazing, and I wanted to try it, and while I was gravitating toward Barbarian more initially, I'm still happy enough with this and it helps the rest of the group play things they will enjoy as well.




So, with that established, we are starting at level 3. I'm interested in doing a Paladin/Warlock cross class, what is the best way to go about this?



Note: IMPORTANT!: We may be coming back to the system and these characters down the road, depending on how this pans out. So, something that's workable right now but will stay functional as it levels up would be preferred.

Thanks!

[Unoriginal]

The person who told you that was mistaken.

While it's true the Paladin's smite can be used with spell slots from any class, and that Warlocks recover their slots on a short rest... the Warlock has a very limited number of slot, and in principle you don't get a short rest between every fights.


Now, the Paladin/Warlock multiclass is still pretty good, but the days of classes combo that made a character OP like in 3.X are over

[Daelnoron]

Well, well, well.

Welcome to 5e.

Since you are interested in character building, let me plint you to the fourth entry in the "Notable Threads" sticky in this forum. You'll find all the build support you could dream of there.

Paladin/Warlock is one of the more powerful multiclass builts you will find. How deep you invest into Warlock is up to you, more adept people than me have tinkered at length about what is optimal.

You may want to look at Hexblade Subclass, for a SAD character (CHA to hit&dmg) and once per short rest boosted crits (which increase the power of your smites as well) and most likely want to start out as a paladin to keep the heavy armour.

Bladelock won't do much for you, except allow you to extend your Hex-Warrior benefits to a heavy two handed Weapon, though you're perfectly fine going sword&board.

Instead you could go cute with a fancy familiar or flexible with cantrips and all rituals (Tome of ancient secret invocation). And/Or get Eldritch Blast (cantrip) with Agonizing Blast & Repelling Blast (Invocations) for the classic Warlock at-will blastery.

[Metahuman1]

Soooooooo, what your telling me is I'm going to be miserable and this is going to be 4th Edition mark 2 were no choice actually helps mechanically in any way shape or form and EVERYTHING is 100% dependent on "Roll high or you can't do it.".



Why does this system even exist then?



Edit: Ninja'd!



Ok, NOW were talking! Thank you!


So, I'm looking at options.

Bladelock doesn't do anything for me you say, alright, that's interesting, (I'd have figured a scaling magic weapon or whatever it does was good for melee, or do they just not stack?).

This Sub Class you mention is VERY interesting sounding. Were would I find it?


And Take Paladin initially. Ok, got it!

[Daelnoron]

The same book your co-player wants to get his horizon walker from: Xanathars guide to everything.

It's massively front loaded btw.

And yeah, Unoriginal isn't all that wrong though. If you are expecting powerlevels like in 3.5, you're in for a bad surprise. Most classes are pretty damn strong if taken to 20 and without the CHA to attacks, Warlock would be a method of increasing a particular speciality of yours, while at the same time maybe diversifying your possibilities a bit (All ritual spells / Strong Cantrip DMG) instead of adding raw power.

Oh, Edit to Bladelock: You don't get a SCALING magic Weapon. Just a magic Weapon you can port in your Hand.

[Unoriginal]

Soooooooo, what your telling me is I'm going to be miserable and this is going to be 4th Edition mark 2 were no choice actually helps mechanically in any way shape or form and EVERYTHING is 100% dependent on "Roll high or you can't do it.".



Why does this system even exist then?

Whoa.

Ok, first, calm down. No, 5e is not dependent on "roll high or you can't do it". It's based on the principle that most adventurers can accomplish most tasks unless the success is uncertain and the failure produce something important(ex: climbing something that has enough holds doesn't require a check, usually), and te choices DO help mechanically.

The thing is, they don't help in the sense "my character is so powerful it'll leave all the others in the dust!" All classes are things they're good at, things they're less good at, and the like. A Rogue is going to have more troubles against a horde of mooks than a Wizard, for example, but this Wizard will have more troubles against a boss monster than the Rogue. Not to mention all the different capacities between those classes.




Ok, NOW were talking! Thank you!


So, I'm looking at options.

Bladelock doesn't do anything for me you say, alright, that's interesting, (I'd have figured a scaling magic weapon or whatever it does was good for melee, or do they just not stack?).

This Sub Class you mention is VERY interesting sounding. Were would I find it?


And Take Paladin initially. Ok, got it!

To expand what I was talking about earlier:

A lvl 3 Paladin has 3 spell slots and all the benefits from their subclass, including the Channel Divinity one. A Lvl 2 Paladin/lvl 1 Warlock has 3 spell slots too, with one that can be recovered with a short rest, but doesn't have the powers the lvl 3 Paladins get.

Now, they'll gain different powers. Pretty useful ones, including using CHA as an melee attack stat, like Daelnoron mentioned, and having the powerful Eldritch Blast cantrip as a ranged option. But Paladin2/Warlock 1 is not going to be overly superior to Paladin 3. Or Warlock 3, for that matter.

[Metahuman1]

Daelnoron :


I wasn't expecting power levels like 3.5. I'd been given to understand that they had managed to make the classes that don't focus on being spell casters more viable however. That there wasn't a need for something like Tome of Battle, because they actually were giving Gish's and Martials nice things that could mostly compete with the wizard.

What Unoriginal made it sound very much like in his first post, was that that is what it might do according to marketing, but according to actually playing the game was much more like what I experienced the several times I gave 4th edition it's day in court. Want to do something your specialized in? If you rolled basically perfect attribute scores, roll a 17 or better. If you didn't roll absolutely perfect attribute scores but your still specialized, roll an 18 or a 19 or better. If your not specialized, roll a 20. Didn't manage that? Too bad so sad you can't do it. (I swear I played 6 classes over multiple sessions and even the warriors and mages couldn't hit a freaking minion on a nat 15.).



My interest in this particular set up is that Warlock's combo of more Cha focused spells that can be recovered with a short rest, seems like a recipe for a character who can do one thing, but can do it VERY well, and isn't going to be trivially forced to use up his ability's in the first fight or two so that he's got nothing left when the DM decides to throw a "Dramatic, Climatic" final boss at us.



As I'd touched on, my original plan was that I would run Barbarian, and I'd figured I'd max Con and Dex, go unarmored, use a shield, and just be able to endurance through everything to the last fight, and then Rage. But since someone else in the group is getting Barbarian to fit her desire to do "Hulk Smash!", this is choice number 2.


As for Pact of the Blade: Huh, interesting. I was under the impression that it made your competency with the weapon/the power of the weapon scale with level.

Hmmmm, come to think of it, that raises a question. Is there any particular advantage to 2 handing in this system? A 1.5 STR mod to damage or something of the sort?





Unoriginal :

That sounds, better, I think.

I don't need to have one class totally outstripping the others. I just need to have it be good at 1-2 things and not prone to "Well, we had to fight through all this other stuff for dramatic tension and now it's the final boss who's suppose to be climatic, AKA, harder to kill and more likely to kill us than everything else, and sadly were fresh out of freaking anything other than basic attacks to throw at him and really low on HP." trap low levels seem to love.




That said, ok, I see what your saying, though, I though classes still got bonus spells form high casting stats? (And that Warlocks start with 2 spells at level 1.)? Did I read that SRD entry wrong?



That said, ok, I still think I wanna make a goe of it. Cha to attack/Damage sounds REALLY useful, and I've always wanted to play a character who could be Cha SAD.

Which brings up another couple of questions.

1: 2 handed weapons, Sans pack of the blade, can't be used with Cha to hit and damage. What about Versatile weapons like a longsword?

2: Do Warlocks have restrictions on casting spells when wearing Armor? If so, how do those work?

3: Is there a race floating around that has a bonus, preferably a +2, to Charisma?

[The Zoat]

1. No, you gotta use strength or dex for weapons unless you use the Hexblade patron from Xan's Guide.

2. Nope, as long as you're proficient, you can cast in any armour.

3. Half-Elves get +2 Charisma, +1 to any two other stats, Darkvision as good as anyone but Drow, and they get extra skills too.

Dragonborn get CHA, strength, resistance to one elemental damage type and a lackluster breath weapon.

Drow get CHA, dex, innate spellcasting but they can't fight in the sunlight well.

[Consensus]

The advantage of 2 handed weapons is access to Great Weapon Master, one of the best feats for a martial character which primarily allows for a power attack with -5 to hit and +10 to damage. Another benefit is Pole Arm Master, allowing pole arms a OoA when enemies enter their reach and a bonus action attack

[Metahuman1]

The Zoat

1: I, got that part. I need the Hexblade sub class to get the Cha to hit and damage at all. I was asking if, with out also taking Pact Of The Blade, a Versitile weapon, which, as I understand it, is both a 1 handed and 2 handed weapon, would count for Hexblade, or be disqualified for Hexblade, with out taking Pact Of The Blade.



2: Awesome, thank you!


3: Again, much obliged! =)


Consensus: Ah, I see. So, assuming I'm not super interested in those things because I have other priority's, there's no real reason not to either Two Weapon Fight or use Sword And Shield.

I get that there good if you want or plan to use those things, but, I'm not digging the -5 to hit for some time, and I'm not seeing this character as a pole arm user.




Another Question: Is there anything besides class, race and background that effects what skills you have/how many skills you can be proficient with?

[gloryblaze]

Unless you have blade pact, you can only use Cha with one specific weapon so if you go TWF that leaves your offhand using either Str or Dex. On top of that, TWF is considered thoroughly mediocre in this gen (it burns your Bonus Action, limiting your action economy; it also doesn't scale well as you level up).

That means that either using a one handed and a shield (or a versatile weapon to leave a hand open for somatic and material components) would probably be your best bet.

As for skills, there are a couple of feats (prodigy and skilled) that let you grab them, and there are training rules to acquire them in play but it requires a lot of downtime days that you probably won't have in a one shot.

[The Zoat]

or a versatile weapon to leave a hand open for somatic and material components) would probably be your best bet.
[/QUOTE]

Two-handed weapons can be carried with one hand, you only need two to swing them.

[gloryblaze]

or a versatile weapon to leave a hand open for somatic and material components) would probably be your best bet.


Two-handed weapons can be carried with one hand, you only need two to swing them.

Can't use a two-hander with Cha unless you have blade pact. At level 3, I imagine the build is Pally 2/Lock 1, meaning no pact boon yet.

[Metahuman1]

Fair enough. Depending on the Dex, either Longsword and shield, or rapier and shield, with Dex determining that + armor worn for astetic reasons then.




To recap.

So, Elf, Drow or Dragonborn for the Race, Pally for first 2 levels, Warlock for Level 3, and taking Hexblade if at all possible. I'll probably pick up a level 3 of Paladin at some point down the road. Blade Pact isn't that big a deal evidently, so I should consider one of the other Pacts.

Assuming the character ends up coming back enough to bother advancing in any meaningful way, would that level 4 of Paladin be worth anything to this character?



Also, apart from all of what's been covered/recapped, Do you guys have any further recommendations or see anything glaring I've missed?

[gloryblaze]

Fair enough. Depending on the Dex, either Longsword and shield, or rapier and shield, with Dex determining that + armor worn for astetic reasons then.




To recap.

So, Elf, Drow or Dragonborn for the Race, Pally for first 2 levels, Warlock for Level 3, and taking Hexblade if at all possible. I'll probably pick up a level 3 of Paladin at some point down the road. Blade Pact isn't that big a deal evidently, so I should consider one of the other Pacts.

Assuming the character ends up coming back enough to bother advancing in any meaningful way, would that level 4 of Paladin be worth anything to this character?



Also, apart from all of what's been covered/recapped, Do you guys have any further recommendations or see anything glaring I've missed?

If you do end up advancing meaningfully, you should prioritize Warlock Level 2 (which gives you access to Agonizing Blast and Repelling Blast (turning your eldritch blast cantrip into an at will d10+Cha ranged attack that can push enemies) and then focus on paladin levels after that. Paladin gets a lot of good stuff, like Extra Attack at Level 5 and Aura of Protection at Level 6.

The level progression should probably look something like

Paladin 2 -> Warlock 2 (selecting Hexblade at Warlock 1) -> Paladin 6 -> Paladin X

[Lombra]

If it's going to be your first approach to the system I'd advise against going all forum min-maxing on the character. Just gp for something you think you'll enjoy; at such low level there won't be combinations that make you go "oh my god that's totally badass and a huge benefit over a straight class". Plus, the "hulk" character concept very good at that one thing should be a champion fighter, not a barbarian. Barbarians are more complex than people give them credit for.

[Daelnoron]

Many folks answered your questions quite well. Just a few minor additions:

As you suspected, Versatile Weapons work with Hex Warrior.

A Warlock gains access to Invocations at lvl 2. One of which grants you Proficiency in 2 Skills, but it'd cost you Eldritch Blast strength.

(You can pretty much ignore your Dex for the weapon choice, Hex Warrior replaces the original Attribute with CHA, not adds it) But keep in mind, that you need STR 13 to Multiclass out of (or into) Paladin.

Other +CHA Races are Tieflings, even a Halfling gets +2 DEX, +1 CHA and would work (Small folk can use Weapons without a downsize, but have trouble with the ones marked as 'heavy'. Longswords aren't.) Also never underestimate the Variant Human, if your DM allows it.

Extra Attacks are really strong. Whether you go Warlock 2 or Paladin 5 first is up to you.

The thing with Bladepact is: It gives you access to Invocations, that grant you Extra Attacks (which DON'T stack wit the Paladins) and CHA to Damage (which WOULD work, but requires Warlock 12.)

Nearly every level of Paladin and every level of Warlock would improve you (and be it just by giving you an Ability Increase, which, in case you didn't realize, are tied to the class lvl, not the character lvl)

[Unoriginal]

If it's going to be your first approach to the system I'd advise against going all forum min-maxing on the character. Just gp for something you think you'll enjoy; at such low level there won't be combinations that make you go "oh my god that's totally badass and a huge benefit over a straight class". Plus, the "hulk" character concept very good at that one thing should be a champion fighter, not a barbarian. Barbarians are more complex than people give them credit for.

This is fair.

[Metahuman1]

If you do end up advancing meaningfully, you should prioritize Warlock Level 2 (which gives you access to Agonizing Blast and Repelling Blast (turning your eldritch blast cantrip into an at will d10+Cha ranged attack that can push enemies) and then focus on paladin levels after that. Paladin gets a lot of good stuff, like Extra Attack at Level 5 and Aura of Protection at Level 6.

The level progression should probably look something like

Paladin 2 -> Warlock 2 (selecting Hexblade at Warlock 1) -> Paladin 6 -> Paladin X

Huh. I, would have figured If one was to go Paladin/Warlock, it would make since to have more than 2 levels of Warlock so that you can capitalize on the spells for smiting and versatility.




Lombra: Right, but by the same token, in my experience, D&D frequently has lot's of trap options that look good till you get to the table and want to do stuff that your good at. Or suppose to be good at anyway.





Daelnoron: Thank you, you've been most helpful so far! =)

That said, that, does bring up a question. Looking at this, it seems I get a choice of a feat, or an ability score increase. Is, that correct?

[Unoriginal]

That said, that, does bring up a question. Looking at this, it seems I get a choice of a feat, or an ability score increase. Is, that correct?

Nope. Unless your DM is houseruling it, the only way to get a feat this early is to be a varient human. You need at minimum 4 levels in the same class to get the choice between an ASI and a feat.

Which is one of tge ways that multiclassing limit your raw power a bit in exchange of versatility



Lombra: Right, but by the same token, in my experience, D&D frequently has lot's of trap options that look good till you get to the table and want to do stuff that your good at. Or suppose to be good at anyway.


5e avoids trap options like the plague. You really need to put deliberate efforts into it to have an ineffective character.

[Daelnoron]

Always happy to help^^

I just happen to be playing a Paladin 2 / Hexblade 1 in our recently started campaign, so I have all these options fresh in mind. :smallbiggrin:

You wont find trap options as bad as 3.5 could give you here.

Whenever you get an ASI, you may replace it with a feat. IF your Group plays with feats, that is.


And in regards to the optimization: True, you want your whole group to be at least somewhat on the same level. Though, again, the gap will propably not be as big as in 3.5

[Metahuman1]

Ah. But yeah, it wasn't just 3.5 and Pathfinder having Trap Options, it was also 4th making you think that anyone could be good at anything when really, the answer was they could, but only when they could roll really, really high.

[Asmotherion]

Depending on how often your DM will let you Short Rest, Hexblade Warlock/Paladin can be from Hevy Nova, to 1 Nova per session and still do some nice DPT.

The most important thing is, as long as you have a High CHA followed by a good CON and a +2 bonus to Dex (or not, if you go for full plate), you literally don't need to worry about your other stats at all. This is something few others can truelly claim.

Eldritch Blast (+Agonising) gives you the best Ranged Spell attack in the game, using it as single target or spreading it. You have a Pact weapon, and can use Booming Blade on top of Divine Smite and a possible Eldritch Smite (and Hex) for a Lot of Melee Damage.

Now, if you want to enter Minionmancy, Dance Macabre is the perfect spell to do so, and is a great way to combine concepts with Oathbreaker. It's a Higher level thing though, but if you're playing there (some one-shots do), give it a shot.

Shadow of Moil is just perfect. People can't target you with most things, they have disadvantage against you wile you have advantage against them, and if someone hits you you punish them with damage. You can still cast your Armor of Agathis and any other non-concentration effect, and the damage stacks.

As for AoEs, Sickening Radiance most interesting ability is that it deals Exhaustion levels; of those, and you get Death. From the 1st you give disadvantage on ability checks. 2nd, speed halves. 3rd Disadvantage on saves. 4th HP max halves. 5th speed drops to 0. 6th death. Repelling Blast together with the huge area this spell covers (it is a 30 foot radius sphere, aka covers a 60foot area, which is huge) can force targets back in, especially if they are at half speed.

Hunger of Hadar is an other Warlock favorite that synergises well with Repelling Blast.

Choose what you're going for (according to the level) and go for it. Sory if I focus more on the Warlock part, but it's the part I'm more fammiliar with.