Should I stop DMing?

[fatbaby]

So I have been playing 5e for about 3 years now. I started as a player and quickly got the urge to DM. For about 2.5 years I have been DMing on and off. I love writing my own campaign, and even designed my own world, which I call Aravesh. I have never had any major complaints about how I run a campaign. But, after our last session, I am ready to give up on D&D.

Our last session resulted in a TPK of the party. I set up a medium difficulty encounter which drained the party of a lot of their resources. Immediately following the fight, they approached a creature that was tied up. I also explained to the first party member to get to the area that there was a pool of water that emanated a magical aura. Instead of investigating the pool, they went to the creature. Through looking over the creature they could tell it was enraged and didn't seem to be able to be calmed down or reasoned with.

....So they untied the creature. This resulted in a much, much harder battle. The party fought, and fought, and died. Never did any of them attempt to run away, or check out the water.

The water pool was a "long rest". Had they used it, they would have survived. But they ignored it. I asked for character sheets after the TPK. I had 3 people refuse to give them up. To be clear, I don't rip up character sheets, I keep any character sheets that I kill. They are my "trophies", and I have intentions of using them in the future for NPCs or enemies. Needless to say I don't know that I want to continue DMing. 3 years of playing weekly should result in fairly proficient players, but they constantly make ridiculous decisions. This time their decisions killed their characters. And 3 people had the audacity to be mad because their mistakes led to an unwanted outcome. Am I over-reacting? Are my players out of line?

[Kane0]

It sounds like there was a bit of disconnect. Did you or the players step beyond the 4th wall and say something before these decisions took place? Was this sort of thing discussed in session 0 or after previous sessions? Do what your players want and expect something different to yourself, and if yes/no how do you know that?

Edit: Also the fact that it has been years and this is your first real problem speaks volumes. You're actually doing really, really well.

[Xihirli]

What was the creature? Why did it want to kill them all instead of running back to wherever it came from?

I rarely have beasts that are all that invested in killing the party. I tend to play them like real-world predators. If the PCs are more trouble than they’re worth, they’re not worth the trouble.

Untying the monster was clearly a bad move. I’m not sure if it had to be a TPK move.

[Delicious Taffy]

"Alright, guys. You're exhausted, but there's a good spot to rest right over there."

"Hey, this guy here is super pissed, let's untie him immediately, ignoring all red flags."

"Hey, why'd we die?"

That sounds like something my players would have pulled, before I quit 4th Edition. I'd say give them another shot, but maybe sorta... "babyproof" the next adventure a bit. Don't take it too easy on them, but have backup plans if they try that sort of stunt again.

[Mongobear]

F*** 'em.

I know it sounds rather mean/callous, but nothing you did was out of line, and they totally walked into the situation willingly, then try and blame you for it. They deserved to die.

The character sheet thing, meh. I probably wouldnt have given it up either, but I tend to have a sentimental place for my characters, and do the same thing you do, just for my own guys. Id maybe have made a copy to hand over to you by next session, but it sounds like the 3 of them were just being childish after things not going their way.

Also, no matter how often it happens, or comes up, characters die in D&D. It's part of the game. Nobody is invincible, and actions have concequences. To repeat a quote ive used many times on the topic "Life is cheap if Death has no meaning."

[zinycor]

Just let them keep their chracter sheets, and continue to GM, the only reason to stop GMing is that you want to stop GMing.

[HunterOfJello]

Did you call their character sheets "trophies" in front of them?

[kenposan]

Through looking over the creature they could tell it was enraged and didn't seem to be able to be calmed down or reasoned with.

....So they untied the creature. This resulted in a much, much harder battle. The party fought, and fought, and died. Never did any of them attempt to run away, or check out the water.


So they did something stupid and paid for it. This isn't your fault. God, if my players did that they would willingly hand over their character sheets for being so stupid.




I asked for character sheets after the TPK.

Not a great way to go. Some people become very attached to their characters. And they are their characters after all, not your pool of potential NPCs. I wouldn't have asked for them as they aren't mine, if that makes sense.

[Clone]

First is a congratulations for both constructing your own world and playing for so long without running into a major issue until now! That is not something many DMs can claim, so if there is anything which says you should continue DMing this is a prime example. You don't get that far without skill.

To address the issue two things needs to be tackled, the scenario itself and the aftermath.
You did a standard strategy by draining the party of their resources via smaller encounters, normal stuff.
You then presented them a treat via a quick long-rest tool so they could go all out with everything on the big chained up monster. Sounds awesome and that would be a great way for the players to feel like badasses.

Unfortunately what may have happened was that you had too much foresight within the situation. YOU knew the pool would grant a long rest. YOU knew the monster would attack them if they let it go.
I don't know what your DMing style is and what kind of methods you've utilized with your players, but from an outside perspective a pool which grants the benefits of a long rest is very out of the ordinary and thus not something I'd ever immediately think to pick up on.
Second is the monster in the room seems like a far more concerning issue than glowing water, personally.
Combine these together and maybe you didn't foreshadow the pool or the monster as clearly as you needed for the PCs to take the hint. Maybe they are very silly and need points to be reinforced before they realize hints, but if so that's something to take note of in the future. I know you DID foreshadow the monster's aggression, so they shouldn't complain too much about that, but its still something to note down (PCs can be very slow to pick up on things, something you should take into account for instead of punishing I find).

The next major point is the aftermath.
Whether or not if they deserved their TPK or not, there is almost nothing you can do to stop them being angry or frustrated at the situation they found themselves in. Its easy from the DM perspective to see this as silly since they could die at any moment, but players usually invest quite a lot into their PCs and so will always act irrationally unless they did it knowing their PCs could die.
The only PC death in my campaign of a year was when three level 5 characters invaded a young adult white dragon lair completely of their own choice, wanted to kill the dragon because of the glory AND they still killed it but it resulted in the death of the monk. They knew all of the dangers and how it was purely an ego inflating act to try kill it, yet the player was still furious when it happened. He wasn't angry at me, simply that it happened. Unavoidable.

Trying to take the PC sheets afterwards as "trophies" will never go down well, ESPECIALLY if its done straight after the whole ordeal. I really hope you didn't call them that to the players' faces.

Ultimately, should you stop DMing?
Simply because of this whole situation NO. Maybe a break would help, or swapping positions with someone else in your group for a one-shot or two may take the edge off. There isn't a single fault-less DM out there, all you need to do is get as much feedback as possible now and learn going forward!

Are you overreacting/ are your players out of line?
Possibly for both. You had all the insight which they didn't have, of course they will seem unruly to you. At the same time you don't have their logic and perspectives, nor do you have the emotional attachment to the characters which died in the whole fiasco.

What you should do, before making any form of decision both relating to your immanent DMing endevours and the state of the game as a whole, is sit down with all of your players and talk through everything that happened. Over coffee/lunch would be better so there isn't any pressure to immediately play.
See exactly what they were thinking and use it as a chance to get them to see your logic, how their logic seemed flawed from your perspective etc.
Once the initial anger and frustration has been talked out of them, and everyone has a better perspective on the situation, make amends and use the fruits of the discussion to make your choice.

Without more information on the players, what they know of your style of encounters, other perspectives etc it is too difficult to properly judge who was in the "right" or "wrong" here, which your question seems to be hinting at.

I hope this helps!

[damascoplay]

Cause and consequence.

If they have been playing for quite some time and they already know how things works, it would be only natural to them to investigate the pool instead of releasing a powerful raging creature with little HP and resources.
The problem is with your players. They showed that they weren't able to deal properly with the situation, and the result, unfortunately, was a TPK.

It sucks, but it happens. Do not let that get over your head, if mistakes have been made, the best course of action is to avoid repeating them. You fail, you learn from your failure.

Now I'd argue that it was the players fault. You gave them a choice, and they chose to release the creature without thinking of the consequences. It may be because they've never dealt with this situation before. The next time, they will think twice before doing something soo reckless.

[fatbaby]

Thanks for the replies everybody.

The monster was "Ludo" from the Labyrinth. I worked in my version of the Labyrinth into the game because I thought a pop culture reference would get my party more involved. I did explain it was a "dark and twisted" version of the movie. Based him directly off a stone giant. The creature wasn't invested in killing them, but was enraged and would not have retreated without facing dire consequences.

Didn't call them trophies, but they knew I keep sheets.

To me the main issue I had was the reaction that I got after the TPK. To me, as DM, I make the game. I have to invest hours outside of sessions to make sure that everything is ready. Then I have to create stuff on the fly when they don't follow the storyline because of some ridiculous plan they made, like attacking a beholder with a party of level 6 characters even though it is clearly a RP portion of the story, or releasing a raging giant when everybody is out of spells and down to 1/3 hp. I do everything to make the players enjoy the session. To me, if I want that character sheet, its mine. And refusing that, and storming out mad because things didn't go your way makes me wish I didn't waste my time.

Sorry just venting, but thanks for listening Playground.

[Pex]

How was the party supposed to know the pool was a long rest? Were they told magic pools exist that refresh people? Was there a sign that says "Be safe from all your troubles?" They saw water and a tied up creature. Of course they're going to encounter the creature. Why would it be there if it wasn't meant to be encountered? If you wanted to let the party rest why didn't you let them? Why have a hostile creature there in the first place? Players do need to learn "Never Free The Prisoner", but I fail to see why it was there to distract them. So what the pool was magical. It could wait. The creature was the more immediate concern. The players were not dumb to encounter it. Perhaps they thought the creature would be grateful for its release and go away even if it didn't want to be friends. That's not a wrong thing to have considered.

Wanting to keep character sheets as "trophies". That right there is hostile DM attitude. PCs are not trophies to be lauded over. It is not your job as DM to kill PCs let alone be proud of it should it happen as a normal consequence of play. I would have torn up my sheet into pieces before I gave it to you. Any benefit of the doubt the TPK was an unfortunate happenstance would be immediate proven otherwise.

Whether you should give up DMing is not my place to say, but my sympathies are with the players on this one.

[Clone]

To me the main issue I had was the reaction that I got after the TPK. To me, as DM, I make the game. I have to invest hours outside of sessions to make sure that everything is ready. Then I have to create stuff on the fly when they don't follow the storyline because of some ridiculous plan they made, like attacking a beholder with a party of level 6 characters even though it is clearly a RP portion of the story, or releasing a raging giant when everybody is out of spells and down to 1/3 hp. I do everything to make the players enjoy the session. To me, if I want that character sheet, its mine. And refusing that, and storming out mad because things didn't go your way makes me wish I didn't waste my time.



I definitely sympathize with this, as sometimes DMing can be a thankless job. However whether or not it was justified, I feel you may have taken their anger a little too personally. Even your words suggest that you mightn't see it from their perspective, as it more than likely wasn't at all a matter of them not getting their way.

Whether or not the TPK was their own making or yours, they lost characters the players invested in, by the sounds of it for quite a while. Especially if death is an uncommon occurrence in your games, they simply won't be happy responding to a TPK, and there is nothing you can do about that. You simply need to allow them to feel what they need to feel, and move on together as a group.

I don't however believe that you have any form of right to claim something from the player, especially the sheet. If this was something you previously mentioned to them as a rule you employ thats one thing, but they owe you nothing just as you owe them nothing. The second the game devolves into anything which isn't "fun for all parties involved" then that is a bad sign.

Also the only time your time will be considered wasted is if you consider it to be wasted. If you enjoy constructing a world and telling the story of your players' PCs' exploits then it will never be wasted time!

[damascoplay]

How was the party supposed to know the pool was a long rest? Were they told magic pools exist that refresh people? Was there a sign that says "Be safe from all your troubles?" They saw water and a tied up creature. Of course they're going to encounter the creature. Why would it be there if it wasn't meant to be encountered? If you wanted to let the party rest why didn't you let them? Why have a hostile creature there in the first place? Players do need to learn "Never Free The Prisoner", but I fail to see why it was there to distract them. So what the pool was magical. It could wait. The creature was the more immediate concern. The players were not dumb to encounter it. Perhaps they thought the creature would be grateful for its release and go away even if it didn't want to be friends. That's not a wrong thing to have considered.

Wanting to keep character sheets as "trophies". That right there is hostile DM attitude. PCs are not trophies to be lauded over. It is not your job as DM to kill PCs let alone be proud of it should it happen as a normal consequence of play. I would have torn up my sheet into pieces before I gave it to you. Any benefit of the doubt the TPK was an unfortunate happenstance would be immediate proven otherwise.

Whether you should give up DMing is not my place to say, but my sympathies are with the players on this one.

The DM explicitly told them the tied creature was raging and was very agressive. So saying that the "Tied creature would be grateful" is really dishonest while completely ignoring all the flags being throwed around.

He did mentioned the pool had some magical properties, but none of the PC's cared about it, they chose to ignore it on their own volition. All it would take was for a player to ask "Can I roll something to see what's going on with this pool?" But alas, it didn't happened.

He gave them the opportunity to rest, seeing that the tied creature would be unable to harm them, and yet, they chose to release the raging creature with all resources at low.
The DM didn't forced them to untie the creature, it was something the players did on their own. They got TPK, they got what was coming.

I agree that the DM taking the PC sheets away is bad, but destroying your own sheet in front of everybody because your character died due to your own action is childish to say the least. You can always ask your DM to keep your sheet, if you don't want him to have it.

[smcmike]

The DM explicitly told them the tied creature was raging and was very agressive. So saying that the "Tied creature would be grateful" is really dishonest while completely ignoring all the flags being throwed around.

He did mentioned the pool had some magical properties, but none of the PC's cared about it, they chose to ignore it on their own volition. All it would take was for a player to ask "Can I roll something to see what's going on with this pool?" But alas, it didn't happened.

He gave them the opportunity to rest, seeing that the tied creature would be unable to harm them, and yet, they chose to release the raging creature with all resources at low.
The DM didn't forced them to untie the creature, it was something the players did on their own. They got TPK, they got what was coming.

Depends on the number or red flags. Clearly there was a miscommunication here. From the players’ perspective, maybe it sounded like the creature was super pissed about being tied up, and might be calmable only after being untied. Maybe they didn’t realize how powerful the encounter was, and didn’t expect a TPK from a single creature that had been tied up for who knows how long. I’m not saying that they played it perfectly, but assigning blame isn’t very useful after a TPK. It certainly isn’t a way to ameliorate hurt feelings.



I agree that the DM taking the PC sheets away is bad, but destroying your own sheet in front of everybody because your character died due to your own action is childish to say the least. You can always ask your DM to keep your sheet, if you don't want him to have it.

I’ve torn up my sheet before. It’s a simple, dramatic way to express frustration and make it clear that the party doesn’t need to worry about trying to resurrect Captain Billy. It’s my sheet, so I don’t see why anyone else would be bothered by it.

[MaxWilson]

Thanks for the replies everybody.

The monster was "Ludo" from the Labyrinth. I worked in my version of the Labyrinth into the game because I thought a pop culture reference would get my party more involved. I did explain it was a "dark and twisted" version of the movie. Based him directly off a stone giant. The creature wasn't invested in killing them, but was enraged and would not have retreated without facing dire consequences.

I admit, the first thing I thought of when you mentioned the tied-up monster was basically "Oh, poor Ludo!" I expect your players probably thought that too, and that's why they untied him. The fact that Ludo then turned on them and killed them all... well, I don't blame them for untying him, but I do kind of blame them for not having a good plan for running away. Is this the first time they've faced something that was in a position to TPK them, or are they used to the notion that death potentially lurks behind any corner at all times?

I definitely don't blame them for not checking out the magical water first. My first thought there when you described it was "Trap! Avoid!" I'd feel differently if they saw it healing a wounded deer or something first, but honestly I just thought it was a water weird.

Anyway, it shouldn't have been too much of a surprise that they TPK'ed here. There was a better-than-even chance IMO that they'd untie the monster before investigating the water. Again, it's a little surprising that they didn't have a fallback plan ("Run Away!") for when the monster started ripping them to shreds but perhaps they haven't ever had to run away before. They won't make that mistake again, probably.

[Joe dirt]

the world of d&d is a dangerous place. people should not get so attached to the character they are playing that they get emotional. with traps and monsters potentially around every corner one must be on their toes. just have them roll up new characters, hopefully they learn to be more careful. as a dm its your duty to offer up problems, its up to the players to resolve them.

as far as your question, if u should keep dming... thats a question entirely up to you. ask yourself if you are having fun, if not, give it a break. if u are then offer to keep going or ask one of them to step up and dm for a while.

[Mellack]

What one person thinks in obvious might never have occurred to another. You as the DM have the benefit of having complete knowledge of what is going on and why. Often what you may consider a blatant hint flys right by them. A general rule is that you should hint at something three different ways if you want the players to pick up on it. Not saying that your encounter was wrong, just that you have to always expect the players to do things you think are dumb, because they do not have the info you do.
About the character sheets, they are not yours. Those are the player's. They made the characters, and they are theirs to do with as they wish. I consider asking for them to be in poor taste.

[Ganymede]

Don't sweat it.

In my current campaign, I've had to twice roll initiative between players who wanted to greedily and metagamely grab for treasure before anyone else, and in both cases it was cursed/trapped treasure.

Even experienced players will be dum-dums on occasion.

[Wampyr]

Seems like you wanted to complain about not getting a couple pieces of paper to boost your ego more than you wanted serious advice...

...but if you wanted serious advice then here it is; Sack up man. Talk it out, consider changing your DM style. If the players end a night angry then you didn't do your job well. Is it 100% your fault? No. Is it fair? No. But you're still going to be the one held responsible because you're the DM. So if you don't want to do the work, put in the time, hold the game together, then don't. Its as simple as that.

[Kane0]

Wow, the glass is definitely half empty on the forums today.

[Delicious Taffy]

Wow, the glass is definitely half empty on the forums today.

Right? Hey, but at least OP has plenty of answers for unasked questions.

[Finney]

You shouldn't give up dungeon mastering because of a TPK - it happens. There needs to be danger and risk to the party during adventures or their accomplishments and rewards will feel hollow and meaningless. I dislike it much more when a dungeon master fudges rolls to protect/save my character than if my character happens to die during an adventure.

However, you are 100% overreacting to their "ridiculous decisions" and asking for their character sheets is bad form. The character (dead or alive) belongs to the player - not to you. They might want to use that character in another game or simply keep it for nostalgia - who knows.

[Contrast]

The water (and to a lesser extent the giant) is probably a lesson in taking a moment to think about how things appear to other people. If my DM told me there was a somewhat magical lake and a raging giant, the lake would definitely be classified under 'to be investigated later when the more pressing issue is addressed'.

The giant depends heavily on how he was described. Assuming he was in any way sentient I would have assumed releasing him would not have got me immediately attacked, no matter how mad he was.

Only you know what information was/wasn't given and how it was interpreted so you'll have to consider that on your own. The fact that 3 players were all mad suggests to me there was a definite disconnect between how you saw this encounter and how they did.

In answer to your questions - only DM if you're still enjoying it. Are you/your players overreacting? Probably, this is meant to be a fun hobby, not something you get angry at each other about :smallbiggrin:


To me, if I want that character sheet, its mine.

Out of interest how would you feel if after killing a BBEG or completing a campaign one of your players demanded you turn over all your notes associated with it to them to keep? Would you think it was reasonable of them to be annoyed if you refused?

[TheUser]

How was the party supposed to know the pool was a long rest? Were they told magic pools exist that refresh people? Was there a sign that says "Be safe from all your troubles?" They saw water and a tied up creature. Of course they're going to encounter the creature. Why would it be there if it wasn't meant to be encountered? If you wanted to let the party rest why didn't you let them? Why have a hostile creature there in the first place? Players do need to learn "Never Free The Prisoner", but I fail to see why it was there to distract them. So what the pool was magical. It could wait. The creature was the more immediate concern. The players were not dumb to encounter it. Perhaps they thought the creature would be grateful for its release and go away even if it didn't want to be friends. That's not a wrong thing to have considered.

Wanting to keep character sheets as "trophies". That right there is hostile DM attitude. PCs are not trophies to be lauded over. It is not your job as DM to kill PCs let alone be proud of it should it happen as a normal consequence of play. I would have torn up my sheet into pieces before I gave it to you. Any benefit of the doubt the TPK was an unfortunate happenstance would be immediate proven otherwise.

Whether you should give up DMing is not my place to say, but my sympathies are with the players on this one.

100% this.

Creature was more immediate concern; can't really investigate the pool with a potentially hostile creature nearby.

Keeping character sheets as "trophies" is 100% DM vs PC garbage. You -should- stop DMing until you figure yourself out and understand why your players being upset is justifiable.

As it stands you have numerous players all upset means you did something too harsh; coming here to assuage your guilt and paint a convenient picture to get people on your side to help you justify your actions is ridiculous.

[Pex]

The DM explicitly told them the tied creature was raging and was very agressive. So saying that the "Tied creature would be grateful" is really dishonest while completely ignoring all the flags being throwed around.

He did mentioned the pool had some magical properties, but none of the PC's cared about it, they chose to ignore it on their own volition. All it would take was for a player to ask "Can I roll something to see what's going on with this pool?" But alas, it didn't happened.

He gave them the opportunity to rest, seeing that the tied creature would be unable to harm them, and yet, they chose to release the raging creature with all resources at low.
The DM didn't forced them to untie the creature, it was something the players did on their own. They got TPK, they got what was coming.

I agree that the DM taking the PC sheets away is bad, but destroying your own sheet in front of everybody because your character died due to your own action is childish to say the least. You can always ask your DM to keep your sheet, if you don't want him to have it.

If there's a raging hostile creature right there then no way is a party going to just sit there and take a long rest tied up or not. They had to encounter it. If the party was supposed to run away, then they weren't really going to get a long rest at the magic pool at all. The DM purposely chose to have a hostile raging creature in a place he intended the party to long rest the players had no idea was supposed to be. The tied up creature was more important to them than the magical pool. It's their choice, but they weren't being stupid because of it. It's not their fault.

[ImproperJustice]

It sounds like poor communication between the GM and the party.
I try to imagine how my group would approach the situation.
We’re a fairly cautious lot and would moat likely have examined the water and the beast to determine a connection.
The thought of long resting near a dangerous creature seems ludicrous, as does ignoring a creature in peril right before us.

However, we have a Ranger and a Barbarian and we would have attempted to identify the creature’s state, attempt to comminicate and handle animal, likely feed it first, heal it’s injuries, form a battle plan, and then untie it......


Keeping character sheets is bad form.
It just is. After session you can aske them for a copy to explain how you might like to have them as npcs, but keeping as trophies sounds almost sociopathic. I get that it taking it too far, but if you said that out loud to to your players?

I know I wouldn’t return to your table.
And their characters are not yours. They developed them, played them, and breathed imaginary life into them.
I have GM’d for years and never felt like my players owe me anything. It’s a group exercise to create enjoyable memories together that hopefully last a lifetime. Not some wierd competitive sport.


Should you quit DMing?
No.
But with what you have shared, I would encourage you to consider why you GM and what your goals are, before setting up your next session.

[Kane0]

Quick history check, if I may: calling 2d8HP (or any other old-schooler), was taking the character sheet of a dead PC a common practice in the olden days?

[Pex]

Quick history check, if I may: calling 2d8HP (or any other old-schooler), was taking the character sheet of a dead PC a common practice in the olden days?

Yes and no but not upon character death.

First it was not done. It's the player's character. To suggest a DM take it was bad form. In addition, pre-3E it was common practice for players to port their characters among different DMs and campaigns. The 2E DMG even discussed the matter giving advice on how to accommodate it. When 3E came out porting characters was no longer in fashion. The DMG never discussed it. By gaming fiat it became the custom when joining a new campaign to create a new character. Even if you used the same statistics, you created a new character. However, a problem people had at the time was players forgetting their character sheets at home. If a player couldn't make a session there was no copy on hand for the DM or another player to use to keep party cohesion. It became a practice for some groups for the DM to hold onto all the character sheets so that they're available. If the DM can't make a session there's no game anyway. Cynically DMs could also check for mistakes and "mistakes" on the character sheets. I think even the 3.0 DMG suggested this. I remember reading about it somewhere. With 3.5 custom went back to players keeping their character sheets, but it was still fine if a group agreed to have the DM hold on to everything. With 4E/Pathfinder it went full back to players keep their own characters. A group could still have a DM hold onto everything, but it was rare.

[Mongobear]

Quick history check, if I may: calling 2d8HP (or any other old-schooler), was taking the character sheet of a dead PC a common practice in the olden days?

I don't know if I'm an old-schooler, but I have played every edition of D&D except for 2nd.

When I started in AD&D, my then DM would "keep" sheets at his residence simply as a way to make sure nobody misplaced them between sessions. He would sometimes call for an audit to make sure everyone was 'up to code' as he called it, correct levels, THAC0, HP, ACs, Saves, etc. If someone wanted to take their stuff with them, he didnt fight it, but if they lost/forgot their sheets between sessions, they were SoL, and might be given an NPC for the night if they simply left it at home, or made to reroll (at 1st level no less) if it was truly lost/gone forever.

In 3.X/PF, my DMs often allowed players to keep sheets, and a few of us used laptops or Excel to manage sheets and abilities since the builds could become quite cluttered. But often, the same rules for maintanance was upheld, if you lose it, you reroll at 1st level, however, with the advent of technology, we often had back-ups on a neutral location, such as Myth-Weavers or even just e-mailing the updated sheets to our DMs every level up.

4e/5e groups have fallen out of regular check-ups to make sure we're all mathing right, or even keeping track of stuff in the correct spot on the sheet. So far, I've had a DM ask to see that I had a thing written down once in all of 5e's lifespan, and it was only because of how cluttered with notes and smeared with eraser marks my original sheet was. I did eventually find the item I was trying to utilize, and afterwards re-wrote everything on a fresh sheet and bought a small notebook for notes on important stuff like NPCs and plot points.

The only group where I have ever encountered a situation where a DM wanted to see our sheets regularly was the AD&D group when I was a kid. And that was often to check our alignments when handling stuff which triggered on wrong alignments touching them, or whether our stats were high enough to use something. Throughout all of 3.X/PF/4e/5e, ive never had a DM do this.

Ive also only had the same AD&D DM ask to keep character sheets in very special circumstances. If someone reached level 21+ and accomplished something great, he would check if the "Ascended" and became a demi-god in service of their Diety. Basically, they'd become a powerful NPC often used as a messenger/intermediary for that Diety, but couldnt Adventure unless everyone joining the Adventure was also a Demi-God. Mechanically they were identical to before, they just had super special plot armor.

I've never heard of or witnessed a DM wanting to keep dead PCs to use for NPCs or villains for a later campaign. The closest thing to this ive seen is a "Bizzaro Party" fight, where the PCs encounter a warped reality where their exact opposites attack them and try and take over in this plane. Which was a one-time thing and not a permanent occurance.

[MrStabby]

I will occasionally ask to see sheets. Not to check for "mistakes" but to gauge passive ability scores without telling the players what is checked for. Sometimes to see who has a particular magic item if it is being targeted by a locate object spell.

To keep the sheets? Never.


To the OP - keep DMing if both you and the players enjoy it, but might be worth having a review of what happened. You gave your players the freedom to make bad choices and they took it. You and your players just need the same expectations for the game.

The overall experience may be enhanced by this. Surviving an encounter is more sweet when you know death was a real possibility. This may make your future campaign more fun for the players.

Don't try and frame this in terms of who was "right" or "wrong" but do a post mortem to ensure both you and the PCs understand how the TPK happened, talk them through your choices on encounter design and they can discuss how they interpreted the signals you gave them. Some of this might not port well (role play and character motivations that might lead to freeing an enraged creature against good judgment might not be repeated), but others will.

And let them keep their character sheets.

[Glorthindel]

Quick history check, if I may: calling 2d8HP (or any other old-schooler), was taking the character sheet of a dead PC a common practice in the olden days?

I'm actually a little surprised so many people view this as completely unacceptable.

I have always collected players sheets in my campaigns - but invariable, I've provided the sheet in the first place (so technically the paper it is on is mine :smallwink:), I look after most of them between sessions, the character is a part of my world, and lets be honest, there are many ways a dead person can resurface as a monster (various sentient undead, dream sequences, soul in some planar prison, etc), so keeping the sheet is useful for this purpose.

I guess it is how you learn the game, it might seem a strange practice if you've never encountered it, but its far from rare.

[Pelle]

I guess it is how you learn the game, it might seem a strange practice if you've never encountered it, but its far from rare.

I think it's mostly the people who are bringing the same characters to multiple different games who are reacting. To me that's completely alien, though. If I don't keep the sheets, the character can't contribute when the player miss a session. Calling the sheets trophies is a bit troublesome, however.

[GorogIrongut]

You did nothing wrong, so you need to relax. Keep on DM'ing and let your players use it as a learning experience. I would however add that as a DM I have a habit of stepping out of my role as DM when my players are about to do something stupid, and asking them if that's really what they want to do...? It's my way of not controlling their decisions, but letting them know that they're probably going to step into something stupid.

As for the taking of sheets that seems to be so divisive, I'm not sure why it would be a problem. When I DM, we tend to keep everything digital. So after every level up/giving of fancy magical stuff, I ask my players to send me their updated player sheet. It keeps fudging to a minimum. And more often than not, I know what their modifiers are before they do (i.e. it speeds up game play).

In the world where things aren't done digitally, I would simply ask for their sheet so that I could photocopy it. And then I would return it. No harm. No foul.

But seriously, go digital. It's much easier on gameplay.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I think the players could have managed a better solution, if the creature was described as a raging mess tied up in a bow I don't see a reason to actually untie it.

On the note of the pool, sometimes you have to lay it on really thick when you want players to understand that something isn't out to get them. A glowing pool of water might seem mostly positive but it could just as easily have been some sort of teleportation gateway or just a simple lake with no magical properties.

I can't help but have a biased few of the situation since I know more about it now than they did at the time, but there seemed like no good reason to untie the creature if it was in fact described as being suitably tied up and angry at the world. They could have attempted a rest with alternating watches on the creature to make sure it didn't kill them in their sleep. Something other than attempting to take it out on empty resources was possible.

I don't think asking for the sheets is unreasonable, probably better to ask for copies in the future though as people tend to get attached. Anyone who would call you some sort of maniacal tyrant DM looking to collect "victory trophies" of killed players might have some baggage from one of their own games on the side, you played the game too and it's alright to want to keep something from it.

TPK's are part of the game and sometimes they happen for pretty crap reasons, it's a lesson for both parties to hopefully avoid another disheartening situation in the future.

[Knaight]

This sounds like a pretty standard miscommunication - what you were intending to describe and what was read were slightly off. It happens; it's part of the game; it's no big deal. Demanding the character sheets is a bit weird*; the game's over and the players fundamentally should have first call on their own characters (where game documents might well end up pretty much wherever).

[Glorthindel]

I think it's mostly the people who are bringing the same characters to multiple different games who are reacting. To me that's completely alien, though.

Your probably right, and I definitely agree with the sentiment - when I create characters, I create them as a part of the world that they are created for, so the idea of transplanting that character to another game seems strange... and a bit clingy to be honest.

But in my case, it may be because I am mostly the group forever-DM, so I have so few opportunities to play, and so many ideas for characters, using the same one twice seems a waste of an opportunity to try another idea (in the same way, I kind of am part glad for character deaths sometimes, since it "frees" me to try another idea!).

[Knaight]

Your probably right, and I definitely agree with the sentiment - when I create characters, I create them as a part of the world that they are created for, so the idea of transplanting that character to another game seems strange... and a bit clingy to be honest.

The whole idea that one should be able to transfer characters from one game to another is one of my most major pet peeves as a GM. I also only rarely even bother keeping GM notes. Still, some people like record keeping, and if keeping PCs from games they've played in fits right into there.

[Bastian Weaver]

I dunno, "Railroad or die" doesn't sound like a fun way to play. I mean, the players only had one way to solve the problem - drink magic water first, kill creature later. They couldn't reason with it. They couldn't make friends. They couldn't fight it without drinking the magic water first.
Is that really the way you enjoy DMing?

[Beelzebubba]

Then I have to create stuff on the fly when they don't follow the storyline because of some ridiculous plan they made, like attacking a beholder with a party of level 6 characters even though it is clearly a RP portion of the story, or releasing a raging giant when everybody is out of spells and down to 1/3 hp.

I'm wondering where the disconnect is. Are you narrating it to be terrifying and clearly above their capabilities, and then demonstrating it quickly in a way that gives them evidence that those things are overkill (I like having some harmless monster like a goblin or even a big rat squeak loudly and then the Beholder says SILENCE! and disintegrates it), and giving them some Int checks when they're about to do something dumb? And then they do something dumb?

Or, are you not doing any of the above, introducing it with some description of what it looks like and then going right into the RP?

I have a lot of sympathy for you if it's the former, and a lot of advice if it's the latter.

Even so, calling it a 'storyline' throws a bit of a flag for me. "Now comes the huge dragon that makes them beg" is kind of the thing you see in books. It's not fun to play through. What kind of campaign is it - do the characters have a goal they're motivated towards, or are you having to make them on the fly because they won't give you anything to key off of?

[MrStabby]

I dunno, "Railroad or die" doesn't sound like a fun way to play. I mean, the players only had one way to solve the problem - drink magic water first, kill creature later. They couldn't reason with it. They couldn't make friends. They couldn't fight it without drinking the magic water first.
Is that really the way you enjoy DMing?

I don't think this is really fair. There was the choice to untie or not untie, to attack whilst the creature is bound or just to walk away.

[2D8HP]

Quick history check, if I may: calling 2d8HP (or any other old-schooler), was taking the character sheet of a dead PC a common practice in the olden days?


Not at the tables I usually played at no, but I was usually the only one I knew to actually bother buying the pre-printed sheets anyway, mostly "sheets" were a few "stats" and items scribbled on whatever paper was near.

When I played at conventions (which was only a handful of times), the "sheet" was left with the GM, which was also sometimes the case in the late 1980's and early 1990's, but earlier than that...

....there's no other way to say it, me and my old gaming circle were doing D&D "wrong", in that we just didn't place much importance on individual PC's, and as often as not we'd make up new ones on the spot, first 3d6 in order, later (after I got the DMG) 4d6, best 3.

It was only with Champions (a point buy comic-book superheroes RPG), and Car Wars (a GM-less war game), in the early '80's that we starting having "builds" that we wanted to keep, and we started to really bothering to keep PC's (and "cars"!) that we thought were good, which became a habit for other games, including RuneQuest and Call of C'thullu, and those times that we played D&D again.

But I can't claim that the habits I knew were common, as it wasn't like we were communicating with other tables via CB radio ("Breaker, breaker Avatar calling Blackwolf"), though I could tell from the magazines that I read that playing the same PC long-term was a thing, when I started in the very late 1970's, we just didn't do it much, as we just kept switching characters, DM's, and then rules too often.

When I did start buying pre-printed "Character Record Sheets" (the D&D ones were green, and the AD&D ones were yellow) in the early to mid 1980's I did start keeping them (that paper was precious!), and I have no memory of any DM's/GM's saying "Your PC is dead, now hand me your sheet", but I do remember that sometimes you'd leave the paper (not sheet) with the DM/GM, it really depended on who paid for the paper!

[Bastian Weaver]

I don't think this is really fair. There was the choice to untie or not untie, to attack whilst the creature is bound or just to walk away.

True, true.

[Contrast]

I'm actually a little surprised so many people view this as completely unacceptable.

I have always collected players sheets in my campaigns - but invariable, I've provided the sheet in the first place (so technically the paper it is on is mine :smallwink:), I look after most of them between sessions, the character is a part of my world, and lets be honest, there are many ways a dead person can resurface as a monster (various sentient undead, dream sequences, soul in some planar prison, etc), so keeping the sheet is useful for this purpose.

I guess it is how you learn the game, it might seem a strange practice if you've never encountered it, but its far from rare.

I play in a game where the DM keeps the character sheets and I don't have a problem with that. It would rub me the wrong way if my character died and the DM immediately turned to me and made a point of demanding I turn over my sheet rather than just waiting until the end of the session and collecting it with all the others. If I wanted to keep it I'd expect them to be OK with that. If my DM demanded I turned over my sheet in a game where he didn't normally keep the sheets after my character died it would rub me even more the wrong way (despite me never having any intention to play those characters at other tables).

It wouldn't normally be a major thing for me (I would probably just think 'man that DM is weirdly possessive of character sheets') but I could certainly see it being an issue if half/all the party was already mutinous over what they saw as an unreasonable TPK and the DM didn't normally keep the sheets/highlighted he was taking them specifically because you died.

[KorvinStarmast]

Quick history check, if I may: calling 2d8HP (or any other old-schooler), was taking the character sheet of a dead PC a common practice in the olden days? I had never heard of that little ritual until I read a table titans strip last year. Not sure who or what started it, but I guess it has become a part of the sub culture? I started playing in 1975 when we used 3x5 cards.
In one of our campaigns, we had a graveyard notebook that I (as a player), kept. When someone died, and we could not get them back or were out of loot to pay for a rez, we'd have a burial ceremony, or a memorial ceremony, and I'd solemnly put the char sheet into the notebook.
I have see people set fire to char sheets
I have seen them kept on file as momentos
Never saw a DM demand a char sheet from a player. I don't get it, to be honest with you.
There was one table where I played where the painted up lead mini would get melted by a soldering iron when the char died a permanent death, but we were all good with that. All of us at the time painted a lot if figures, traded them, gifted them, etc. Never saw another group that did that.

So they did something stupid and paid for it. This isn't your fault. God, if my players did that they would willingly hand over their character sheets for being so stupid.
I don't get "handing over character sheets." It was their PC. See my point about the graveyard, etc.

Not a great way to go. Some people become very attached to their characters. And they are their characters after all, not your pool of potential NPCs. I wouldn't have asked for them as they aren't mine, if that makes sense. yeah,


Didn't call them trophies, but they knew I keep sheets.
Why do you do that?

I do everything to make the players enjoy the session. To me, if I want that character sheet, its mine. And refusing that, and storming out mad because things didn't go your way makes me wish I didn't waste my time. I think that's a selfish point of view as a DM, honestly, and I have no idea where it comes from. Can you explain?

You shouldn't give up dungeon mastering because of a TPK - it happens. However, you are 100% overreacting to their "ridiculous decisions" and asking for their character sheets is bad form. This.

[Darth Ultron]

No.

You just had a ''bad'' game.

The thing is to learn from it.

1.It's generally a bad idea to make random custom things and just drop them into an adventure. You don't just want to ''hope'' that things ''randomly'' work out....for no reason other then you want them too.

So you might want to establish that A) magic water exists and B) Restful Water exists. Before you drop them into the game.

2.It's a good idea to make things very clear and obvious. You thought the players would see the magic water and be all like ''my character randomly drinks it for no reason!". And that does not exactly make sense. Even ''glowing water' is just a nice effect. But if you would have said ''the plants around the pool are very healthy and colorful and full of life" that (might) have been more of a clue.

3.Don't drop a 'tough' encounter in when the PCs are weak...and you think they might ''fight to the death''. This is a 'know your players' type of thing.

4.Avoid the 'one path' railroad. See this whole encounter was set up for the PCs MUST drink the water and then MUST fight the foe. You should try and avoid that. You want a more ''the characters should rest and heal before doing more combat...but can do that anyway they want'' and less ''drink from my special magic pool only right now!"

5.Avoid the clutter. Why was the pool and the foe in the same room?

[GlenSmash!]

To me, players own their characters, and obviously their sheets. The DM runs the entire rest of the world so asking for their sheets is just odd to me.

As far as the rest TPKs sometimes happen, and sometimes because of bad decisions on the part of the Players. I wouldn't sweat that.

[Knaight]

4.Avoid the 'one path' railroad.

Who are you, and what have you done with Darth Ultron?

[fatbaby]

Thanks for the responses guys. Little upset about some of the flame I'm getting, but it is understandable. To clarify a few things:

This portion of the campaign was "Labyrinth" based on the movie by Jim Henson of the same name. So while the situation may seem a bit "railroad-y", I was attempting to hold true to the original movie, in which Sarah (main character) finds Ludo tied up being tortured by 4 armored creatures. To also note, the players had 13 hours to rescue the boy (just like in the movie) so a long rest would have basically wasted all the time they had. The "magic water" was literally going to be a full restore for the characters. HP to max, recover all spell slots, etc. I have used this in the past, and other similar "savepoints", but not recently.

Now, as for the creature, they did Insight check Ludo, and found that he was in a "inconsolable rage" like that of a wild animal backed into a corner. I made it clear that he was aggressive and probably would not be reasoned with.

As for the character sheets, this is common practice at my table. Another friend of mine who DMs the same group on alternating weekends played back in 2e. At his table back in the day, if a character died, the DM got to rip the paper up. He has continued this practice. He has, on more than one occasion, ripped a character sheet up in front of the players. I have had a PC death before, and asked for a character sheet then. I was given that sheet with no issue, and tucked it away in my book. I used a poor term earlier by saying "trophies". I keep the character sheets to use as NPCs, or as bad guys, or in the event of a resurrection.

I have had situations like this in the past, which is why it was so infuriating for me this time. My players tend to be a little trigger happy, and expect it to all work out in the end. In my eyes, I feel that they aren't worried about their characters dying, and now that it has happened they are upset. I don't like DMing like this. I prefer a more high stakes game where you always expect to die, no matter if the fight is Vecna or a single goblin. Thats how I play, thats how I want to DM. All this was explained in session zero.

Either way, this post was not in my defense, more only to elaborate on this situation. If you disagree, I understand, that is why I posted on a message board and I appreciate all of the feedback. Thanks again.

[Kane0]

Oh so basically you prefer to DM a Combat-as-War game whereas the players tend towards Combat-As-Sport.

That's a common problem, don't stress it. As long as everyone at the table is clear on the matter it usually gets resolved.

[Akolyte01]

I dunno, "Railroad or die" doesn't sound like a fun way to play. I mean, the players only had one way to solve the problem - drink magic water first, kill creature later. They couldn't reason with it. They couldn't make friends. They couldn't fight it without drinking the magic water first.
Is that really the way you enjoy DMing?

Not giving every option an good chance of success is not *remotely* the same thing as railroading.

[Rhedyn]

So I have been playing 5e for about 3 years now. I started as a player and quickly got the urge to DM. For about 2.5 years I have been DMing on and off. I love writing my own campaign, and even designed my own world, which I call Aravesh. I have never had any major complaints about how I run a campaign. But, after our last session, I am ready to give up on D&D.

Our last session resulted in a TPK of the party. I set up a medium difficulty encounter which drained the party of a lot of their resources. Immediately following the fight, they approached a creature that was tied up. I also explained to the first party member to get to the area that there was a pool of water that emanated a magical aura. Instead of investigating the pool, they went to the creature. Through looking over the creature they could tell it was enraged and didn't seem to be able to be calmed down or reasoned with.

....So they untied the creature. This resulted in a much, much harder battle. The party fought, and fought, and died. Never did any of them attempt to run away, or check out the water.

The water pool was a "long rest". Had they used it, they would have survived. But they ignored it. I asked for character sheets after the TPK. I had 3 people refuse to give them up. To be clear, I don't rip up character sheets, I keep any character sheets that I kill. They are my "trophies", and I have intentions of using them in the future for NPCs or enemies. Needless to say I don't know that I want to continue DMing. 3 years of playing weekly should result in fairly proficient players, but they constantly make ridiculous decisions. This time their decisions killed their characters. And 3 people had the audacity to be mad because their mistakes led to an unwanted outcome. Am I over-reacting? Are my players out of line?Stop DMing 5e.

Get a nice Old School Revival game like Dungeon Crawl Classic or Basic Fantasy or Lamentations of the Flame Princess. Or maybe switch to something more pulpy like GURPS or Savage Worlds.

5e does not set the tone that you need to be careful or really think about what you are doing. Your party probably saw things as "oh look another slog of a fight. Great some other monster all tied up. Let's just go at it and maybe feel challenged. GREAT WE'RE DEAD."

[Davrix]

As others have said, the party didn't listen to things and I'm sorry. They untied a creature you said was dangerous and ignored the magical pool and went straight to lets untie the raging beast. They got what they deserved.

Honestly i have a large issue with asking for the character sheet. And with how high emotions get after a TPK asking for them then was probably a big mistake to try.

Me personally I feel that the DM puts the effort and time into the world and his game. Its the same for the player in putting his time and effort into his or her character and its story. If the DM wishes to make a PC a NPC because of some action or consequence like say being turned into a vampire thats cool. Wanting my character as a trophy when it gets killed... That would be like me asking for every monster write up you had after each kill or the world building notes when the campaign was won as my player trophy for beating the DM's stuff. I mean its your table and its honestly not the biggest of deals to me but it does give me that weird not cool feeling.

[Asmotherion]

Ok, first of all, chillax. You've been all friends for what, 2,5 years now, right? Perhaps more than that? It's a game man, the first thing you need to worry about is having fun! The point is creating something all of you together!

1) Were they are right and you are (partially) wrong: Asking to be given the original of someone's Character Sheets is a no-go. Those things have sentimental value. If anything, this means your players have invested emotionally in their characters, and through this, in your campain. You should see that as a compliment, not an insult. A good compremise would be to ask for a photocopy or to manually copy their stats and abilities. It shouldn't take more than a few minutes max. And, it's a Win/Win situation, since you both get to keep the character sheets.

2) Where you are right: It's a TPK that they failed on their own accord. Too bad. Re-wrighting reality makes you loose credit as a DM, and makes their choices less significant. What happened happened. They had their fair chance at winning this, but insted they lost.

3) Now, what happens next: Discuss with the group. Are they willing to play new characters at their current level? Do they want to play the afterlife of their characters? Are you willing to compromise a Deus Ex Machina that brings them back to life with a hidden agenda (that you get to pick)? You can do anything you deem worthwile. Keep two things in mind in this matters: A) It should feel more like a punishment than a reward... something like a quest, or a whole questline is appropriate, or perhaps loosing Ability Scores. B) <-Overrides A. It is meant to be fun and entertraining for everyone, including you, the DM. Finding something passivelly anoying but not of huge impact can be difficult to work on.

Finally, I do not believe you should quite as a DM, unless it brings you more stress than fun. D&D is all about having Fun. Don't forget that.

[Mellack]

I think having the character wipe was no so terrible. It happens sometimes. I still feel that asking for their sheets is an error. Tearing them up would probably make me want to leave. It demonstrates a player vs DM mentality that is not something I would personally want to play with. Instead my group likes to build our story together. Ask for a copy instead. As others have pointed out, how would you feel if at the end of an adventure the players took your notes, tore them up and did a victory dance on them? You would likely feel that your efforts were being denigrated. You already came here to complain feeling that way over them not giving you the respect you felt you deserved. It is the same from their perspective. Do your best to look outside yourself and see how they feel about this event.

[Nettlekid]

I think the part of this I find most unreasonable, or at least in poor taste, is that if you were basing this off of Labyrinth in an attempt to engage them via nostalgia then of course they're going to look at the character who was a beloved companion of the protagonist and think "We need to help him because I loved him in the movie and now in our imagination game we can ally with him." In the movie as well he was in a panicked frenzy, and managed to calm down. I think it's unreasonable of you, knowing that the players would never be able to befriend Ludo, say "They were so dumb for untying him when obviously he was going to kill them." It was obvious to no one but you, and you're having a hard time looking at it from any perspective other than your own.

Speaking of which, you saying "There was a pool that radiated magic. Of course it was a good thing" is similarly skewed. My first thought before reading that this was Labyrinth-inspired was "Water Weird." Knowing it was Labyrinth-inspired I could absolutely see them as being skeptical that it was an offshoot of the Bog of Eternal Stench, and wanting to stay well away from it. And even with that out of mind, disturbing the surface of unassuming water is very often a great way of triggering an encounter. Just look at Lord of the Rings at the gates of Khazad-Dum. Honestly by all game logic, the tied up angry giant ought to be a potential NPC (since being tied up means it can't be just a random encounter on its own, if the party has to choose to unleash it to make it hostile) and the water screams "trap," and maybe by talking to the NPC they could learn about the trap within the water. That's where my mind would have gone at least. Obviously there are alternate possibilities and the way you played it is valid, but don't act like there was no other way to interpret the situation.

I'll also echo what everyone's been saying about keeping character sheets as trophies. That's weird. That's messed up. Whether or not your players know you think of the sheets as trophies, you DO think of them that way. What does that mean? "Hahaha, I, the god of this world who can make anything as strong as I want and just say you die without having to justify it, take pride in snuffing you out. Gimme your sheet so I can reminisce about the time I killed your imagination character in the imagination game I'm imagining." That's nonsense, and I think points to some underlying issues about the sense of megalomania you indulge yourself in when DMing. Especially with lines like:

To me, if I want that character sheet, its mine.
That screams to me that there's something going on with you and your players that's not being kept entirely in-game. You've got some other issue that you're working out.

So you know what? To answer your thread question - Yeah. I don't think you sound like a good DM. You should stop. Let one of your other friends try it, and maybe they'll be better.

[Luccan]

Warning, rant:
Always against "DM gets the character sheet when you die". Seems unneccesary and bound to create conflict, while further having little purpose beyond either satisfying a DM's ego or the (completely erroneous) belief that it will somehow stop them from playing the character at another table. As if that were up to the DM. Make notes or ask for copies if you want to remember dead PCs.
Rant over.

Beyond that, you didn't do anything wrong, based on the OP. They untied an enraged beast for no reason on low resources. It doesn't even matter you were going to give them a free long rest; they made a bad descision they had reason not to make, they paid the price.

Edit: Actually, I've never seen "Labyrinth", but if they have and knew that was what you were doing... would it not be reasonable for them to assume freeing this thing might put them on better terms with it? Again, never seen it, but if in the movie it was being tortured and then was ok when freed and here it was just tied up... I dunno, I think I agree with those that there is some poor communication. I think you and your group need to sit down and hash out expectations for the game, to make sure you're on the same page. Do this any time you start up a new game (different plot/characters/world, I mean, not every session), so you can remind everyone and make clear any changes to your usual style. Also, take player input. And if you don't want to run the game they want to play, then let someone else run and either wait to see if they want to play your type of game later or see if you can find another group to DM for. Don't quit DMing entirely, though.

[strangebloke]

So you know what? To answer your thread question - Yeah. I don't think you sound like a good DM. You should stop. Let one of your other friends try it, and maybe they'll be better.

I agree with the rest of your post.

However.

Never tell someone to quit DMing. Tell them to get better. There are too few people willing to DM as it is, currently, and that problem only gets worse if bad DMs quit. Everyone starts out bad, right?

To OP:
The problem here is one of conveyance. There are lots of things that were incorrectly communicated. First, they didn't think, judging from their reaction, that a TPK was ever even a possibility. Secondly, they didn't think that the monster was going to actually be impossible to tame. Thirdly, they saw you asking for their character sheets as unfair. Fourthly, they didn't get the right idea of what the magic water was supposed to be.

None of those are unreasonable assumptions at all. At my table, 3/4 of those assumptions would have been totally valid. You running a game counter to those assumptions ain't wrong.

But if you don't get that across to your players, you're in for a world of hurt.

Assumption 1 is something to address in session 0. Tell them, 'A TPK is possible and you will all die if you aren't careful.'
Assumption 2 is kinda your fault, IMO, because you're working against nostalgia there.
Assumption 3 is... look, you could say this in session 0, but, honestly? Never do this. It's piss-poor etiquette. The guys just lost their characters, no need to ****-slap them, especially like in this situation when they're already pissed at you.
Assumption 4 is incidental compared to everything else, but just ask the caster for an arcana check right away when he sees it to tell him "Healing Water."

[Yllin]

There's been a lot of discussion on the forum about who is at fault here. But I don't think fault matters in this case. Players making poor decisions, or DM being unreasonable, or random unavoidable miscommunication happening - it's nevertheless DM's responsibility to make the game enjoyable.

So, is it justified to result in TPK? Maybe. Does it benefit the game? It might, because the danger of dying will seem more real in future sessions. It also might not if the players feel that their characters died "unfair" - and it's not important if it was objectively "unfair" whatever that means.

I don't see how taking character sheets from players benefits the game, though. One way is using the characters as NPCs later, but that doesn't require removing the character sheet from the players, since you can ask to copy them for you. And as you can see both from the forum and your own group reaction, many are opposed to the idea.

I feel that suggesting a way of keeping the characters alive might be a good way to proceed, but the unlikely ressurection might also spoil the game (like Hannibal 3rd season, duh).

Don't let one unlucky incident to discourage you from doing what you like - given that you actually like what you are doing.

[Sol]

Other people have been pretty eloquent about the three main problems here:


"A pool of water radiating a magical aura" sounds more suspicious/dangerous than a tied up NPC, particularly one modeled off of a nostalgic/loved creature
you DO NOT own your player's characters. You do not need their character sheets in order to use their PC as an NPC later, because NPCs don't have PC stats. If you found a PC interesting enough to build an NPC version of it, you will remember enough interesting components of that PC to build an NPC of it later.
You appear to be playing DM vs. PCs, instead of cooperative storytelling


Did your PCs fail to ask more questions about the pool of water, or about the tied-up-NPC, that might have clarified the situation? Yes, but you made the decision not to nudge them harder to do so.

There were literally dozens of ways you could have played this as a DM that would not have resulted in a TPK. I'll list some:

Ask for an Arcana/Nature/Religion check to identify the healing pool
Describe the healing pool as surrounded by verdant, richly flowered plants which seem to be abnormally healthy
Describe a seed being accidentally kicked into the pool growing into a sapling, or a wounded rodent drinking from the pool and its wounds closing
Have one of the players trip and fall into it
Explicitly state that the monster that is tied up cannot be calmed down, even if it were to be untied
don't make a monster that literally cannot be calmed down. Even Liches can be talked down, given the right circumstances.
Don't make it look like you are giving your players more choices than you are actually giving them. Railroading can sometimes be fine, especially if your players are doing something stupid.
If you intended your players to find some macguffin (a healing pool in this case) and they do not, and you'd rather keep telling the story than TPK, it's okay to change the rules or scale down a fight
the hurt, chained NPC could very realistically have dove into the pool of healing water, which very realistically could have calmed him in addition to healing his wounds. Bam, ally AND explication of the healing pool. Cost to you? One planned encounter.
Instead of killing the PCs, the rampaging beast could have knocked them out and ran off.
Instead of killing the PCs, the rampaging beast could have ran off
Instead of killing the PCs, the rampaging beast could have ran off as soon as it was injured by the players.
Instead of being rampaging, the beast could have been tired from (presumably) being chained and unfed for an extended period of time. This honestly would have been a more compelling social encounter about freeing and feeding and reviving the beast than a combat encounter.
I could keep going for hours but you get the idea. You're the DM. It's on you to be creative and adapt to your players messing up what you had planned. Prepare for 2-3 scenarios, and it's easy to railroad almost any action into one of those 2-3 scenarios playing out.


Instead, the rigidity with which you played this provided your players with only four ways to survive the encounter:

somehow intuit or identify without you helping much that the water was beneficial
ignore the chained monster
run from the monster at the first sign of real danger
get exceptionally lucky with dice


It's not up to me to say whether you should stop DMing. I'm with strangebloke -- there's enough scarcity of DMs afoot as it is, and if your players still want to play with you, you should probably continue.

I for one would nope the **** right out of a game like this, but that doesn't mean you're doing it wrong, it just means we enjoy different playstyles.

[TheYell]

On my planet a piece of paper with writing on it can be copied.

[Whit]

Hindsight is it’s only over. So see what happens ne t game session.

Return the character sheets. Let them know why they died and that they and you made wrong decisions. You need to be fluid in case they make a wrong move. 1. Monster runs away 2. Fights then runs. 3. Fights but npc pops up to save group 4. They die and that’s it. 5. They are taken prisoners when dropped to 0.

We have a long term dm since 86, he’s fluid out of the sand box but yes he’s had players die.

My paladin sacrificed himself with evil artifact to destroy it
A friend found magic glassmana bombs in a secure case but decided to place them on his person.. a wall of fire hit him and BOOM dead, he left mad and apologized next session.

No one likes losing a character especially if they are attached from lots of character development. It happens but should be limited. Instead be creative how 1 or more survived or brought back.

[fatbaby]

Alright, I get it everybody, nobody likes the issue with the character sheets, I think it has been conveyed fully to me. Thanks for that. To me, and my table, this has always been a rule at the table. ALWAYS. Except that normally the sheet is ripped up. You don't like it, fine, but please understand that this is normal rules to us, just like a Nat 1 is an auto-fail.
This is not about ego. I don't appreciate being called a megalomaniac. "Trophy" was meant as a more tongue-in-cheek statement, I apologize for using that wording. It is hard to convey intentions via text format. And to reference what I just stated, this has always been a rule at the table, it was present at the first game I played in as a PC. I thought it was normal in most, if not all D&D games. It isn't the character sheet itself that is the issue for me, it is about refusing to adhere to a "rule" (at least in our game). It was disrespectful to me. Not the action, but the principle behind it.

To reiterate, I informed the party this was a DARK AND TWISTED version of the Labyrinth.
They also did INSIGHT CHECK the MONSTER, I told them it could NOT be calmed down. I felt it was conveyed clearly this was not an ally.

Either way, I'm pretty sure I got enough opinions on the topic at this point. Thanks folks!

[Wings of Peace]

I think in the grand scheme of cause/effect it's your party's fault for dying. That being said, as the Dungeon Master it's up to you what happens next. The party already died so evaluating whether or not you made a mistake isn't as important as deciding what course of action to take next. A DM has to take into account out of character concerns and so if you think this is something that might end the group, or cause enough friction to ruin the group atmosphere, it's up to you to evaluate what outcomes proceeding as currently planned will produce. That doesn't mean that you should just bend over for them. But as an example, if the group is especially frustrated already because they died then you need to evaluate if gathering character sheets is important enough to further risk escalating the frustration further. I don't many any of that to judge you though, it sounds like you're a pretty cool DM and your fun matters too. But since you're the one who's steering the ship I wanted to focus on evaluating instances that seem important as far as deciding where to go from here.

[Nettlekid]

Alright, I get it everybody, nobody likes the issue with the character sheets, I think it has been conveyed fully to me. Thanks for that. To me, and my table, this has always been a rule at the table. ALWAYS. Except that normally the sheet is ripped up. You don't like it, fine, but please understand that this is normal rules to us, just like a Nat 1 is an auto-fail.
This is not about ego. I don't appreciate being called a megalomaniac. "Trophy" was meant as a more tongue-in-cheek statement, I apologize for using that wording. It is hard to convey intentions via text format. And to reference what I just stated, this has always been a rule at the table, it was present at the first game I played in as a PC. I thought it was normal in most, if not all D&D games. It isn't the character sheet itself that is the issue for me, it is about refusing to adhere to a "rule" (at least in our game). It was disrespectful to me. Not the action, but the principle behind it.

To reiterate, I informed the party this was a DARK AND TWISTED version of the Labyrinth.
They also did INSIGHT CHECK the MONSTER, I told them it could NOT be calmed down. I felt it was conveyed clearly this was not an ally.

Either way, I'm pretty sure I got enough opinions on the topic at this point. Thanks folks!

It says a lot to me that you opened up the thread asking for open and honest opinions and, upon receiving them, are angrily denouncing them and requesting that we stop because you have no intention on changing your habits nor do will you consider the possibility that you were closed-minded or in the wrong. I don't see anyone actually agreeing with you, but you're saying "Nah I was right anyway, bye everybody!" You didn't actually want opinions, you just wanted people to mollify you and support you and you're falling to pieces when people have their own ideas about what you thought was self-evident. If only there was an analogous situation...?

[Kane0]

It says a lot to me that you opened up the thread asking for open and honest opinions and, upon receiving them, are angrily denouncing them and requesting that we stop because you have no intention on changing your habits nor do will you consider the possibility that you were closed-minded or in the wrong. I don't see anyone actually agreeing with you, but you're saying "Nah I was right anyway, bye everybody!" You didn't actually want opinions, you just wanted people to mollify you and support you and you're falling to pieces when people have their own ideas about what you thought was self-evident. If only there was an analogous situation...?

Seriously? Way to invite a new member to the community.

And that isn't pointed at Nettlekid specifically. C'mon guys, we can do better.

[Nettlekid]

Seriously? Way to invite a new member to the community.

And that isn't pointed at Nettlekid specifically. C'mon guys, we can do better.

I calls 'em as I sees 'em. I can tell when someone is trying to draw attention with a clickbaity title and then get a group of strangers to stroke their ego by telling them "nooo, you did nothing wrong, you're so clever and unappreciated" and I'm not about to let that go as scripted. Not every opinion is valid or should be respected. Not all sides of an argument should be valued equally. The more people act that way, the more people celebrate mediocrity. I'm not about it.

[TheYell]

It isn't the character sheet itself that is the issue for me, it is about refusing to adhere to a "rule" (at least in our game). It was disrespectful to me. Not the action, but the principle behind it.

I get the sense that you may take offense very easily.

I also have been flogged by the forum. If that's their opinion, that's their opinion and we ask for it by creating a post.

[Wings of Peace]

I calls 'em as I sees 'em. I can tell when someone is trying to draw attention with a clickbaity title...

It's almost as if they wanted help but also wanted their thread to stand out in a long list of threads. But instead lets just assume the worst possible scenario when there's no stakes involved whatsoever.

[GorogIrongut]

To the OP:
Don't sweat their responses. They're operating from their personal perspective... and honestly a lot of the people on the forum can be quite judgemental. Take their comments with a grain of salt. They're just trying to convince you that their way of playing is right.

As for the rest of it, as I've already said, you did nothing wrong. Even up to and including taking the sheets. It's the thing that your table does. No questions. No problems. Move along.

You're not a megalomaniac. You're not a bad person. Now it's just time to move your game into the next stage of playing.

[ProsecutorGodot]

It says a lot to me that you opened up the thread asking for open and honest opinions and, upon receiving them, are angrily denouncing them and requesting that we stop because you have no intention on changing your habits nor do will you consider the possibility that you were closed-minded or in the wrong. I don't see anyone actually agreeing with you, but you're saying "Nah I was right anyway, bye everybody!" You didn't actually want opinions, you just wanted people to mollify you and support you and you're falling to pieces when people have their own ideas about what you thought was self-evident. If only there was an analogous situation...?

I wanted to bold something here to emphasize exactly where I disagreed with it, but the whole thing was pretty terrible.

I agree with his decision because there's nothing wrong with asking for the characters sheets, he should have asked for a copy of them but the players had the option to say no regardless. I also thought that the situation was described in enough detail for them to be cautious of the tied up creature. I thought I was clear about it when I posted earlier but I guess you didn't see that.

I also agree with his decision to dip out of the thread because it's starting to hit the downward spiral many threads here inevitably hit when asking about subjective topics where people start calling your fun "badwrongfun" and instead of inputting on the situation just start attacking a poster. I've been guilty of this myself pretty recently (and in posting this comment as well) so I'm not really an innocent in that regard either.

On the last note, wowee if that isn't a tasty bit of irony calling someone else close minded after typing out what you did.

I calls 'em as I sees 'em. I can tell when someone is trying to draw attention with a clickbaity title and then get a group of strangers to stroke their ego by telling them "nooo, you did nothing wrong, you're so clever and unappreciated" and I'm not about to let that go as scripted. Not every opinion is valid or should be respected. Not all sides of an argument should be valued equally. The more people act that way, the more people celebrate mediocrity. I'm not about it.

If that isn't the definition of close minded and unwilling to see things from a different perspective, I'm not sure what is.

[smcmike]

Threads like this inevitably feel like pile-ons, even when the people responding are genuinely trying to give good-faith advice, simply because of the balance of numbers. So, my good faith advice is this: to the extent you are capable, don’t let online negativity get to you. Every single campaign has moments that would get shredded by online message boards. Instead of worrying about what we think of your DMing, focus on what your players think. My guess is that they weren’t trying to disrespect your rules, but were just upset about what felt like a bad beat.

[Pex]

It says a lot to me that you opened up the thread asking for open and honest opinions and, upon receiving them, are angrily denouncing them and requesting that we stop because you have no intention on changing your habits nor do will you consider the possibility that you were closed-minded or in the wrong. I don't see anyone actually agreeing with you, but you're saying "Nah I was right anyway, bye everybody!" You didn't actually want opinions, you just wanted people to mollify you and support you and you're falling to pieces when people have their own ideas about what you thought was self-evident. If only there was an analogous situation...?

No, he had some support. Not from me and not 100% but some. In a perfect world he'd submit to my grand vision that I know everything about everything, but even if he doesn't think he is in the wrong I would hope that upon listening to those who disagreed with him he'd understand that the players were not wrong or stupid either. It was not their fault even if it wasn't the DM's fault.

[Baptor]

I think everything up to the claiming of the character sheets can be explained as poor communication on both sides. As DM I always try to make sure I'm not misunderstood as I hate it when the party wipes due to a silly mistake.

I'm not judging you at all, because hindsight is 20/20, but had it been me I'd have done the following:

1) Tried to make the rest pool stand out as a rest pool, "You see a glowing magic pool ahead. It looks like it would provide a form of magical healing or refreshment."

2) Given them a fair warning before freeing the beastie. "You're going to untie it? You remember that I said it was highly aggressive, right? Is that your final decision?"

That said, these things happen. They've happened to me.

The only thing I would've taken issue with is claiming their character sheets - but it sounds like it was a rule agreed upon at Session 0. If that's true, and they played knowing that's the rule, they had no grounds for withholding them from you. However, if my assumption is incorrect and you never told them beforehand that you claim sheets on death - I don't think it was a wise idea to demand them.

As far as quitting - you might need a break - only you can know that for sure. I'd advise against absolutes, however. I've seen many DMs announce they are quitting the screen (myself included) only to come back when they've cooled off. If you need a break - take a break and refresh. That break can be indefinite if you like, - but I'd avoid saying you've "quit."

[Contrast]

As for the rest of it, as I've already said, you did nothing wrong. Even up to and including taking the sheets. It's the thing that your table does. No questions. No problems. Move along.

That said, the reason I (and a number of other people) in this thread think taking people character sheets is a bad idea is because people get emotionally attached to their characters and taking that from them can be a highly emotive thing.

OP has literally just experienced what the potential consequence of this choice they've made is. Now may be an appropriate juncture to consider if what you're gaining is worth what you're losing.

Saying 'hey you agreed to this when you didn't care about this character months ago, stop being mad now that you do care about this character' generally won't stop someone feeling mad :smalltongue:

[Mellack]

Agreed with Contrast. This is a great time to do an evaluation with the gaming group. Taking sheets was just what was traditionally done, but why? Just because that is the way at the OP's first table doesn't make it right (or wrong.) What is each person gaining or losing in this? Discuss it and see if it should be continued. Perhaps there is a way everyone is happy, such as giving copies for NPC use. Same with the encounter. Discuss what they perceived was happening. Perhaps come up with clearer ideas of what people want from the game. Try to learn what each person feels and you will have a better group overall.

[Beelzebubba]

Alright, I get it everybody, nobody likes the issue with the character sheets, I think it has been conveyed fully to me. Thanks for that. To me, and my table, this has always been a rule at the table. ALWAYS. Except that normally the sheet is ripped up. You don't like it, fine, but please understand that this is normal rules to us, just like a Nat 1 is an auto-fail.
This is not about ego. I don't appreciate being called a megalomaniac. "Trophy" was meant as a more tongue-in-cheek statement, I apologize for using that wording. It is hard to convey intentions via text format. And to reference what I just stated, this has always been a rule at the table, it was present at the first game I played in as a PC. I thought it was normal in most, if not all D&D games. It isn't the character sheet itself that is the issue for me, it is about refusing to adhere to a "rule" (at least in our game). It was disrespectful to me. Not the action, but the principle behind it.

So what?

History lesson time, kiddo. 'Hand over me the sheet' was from the Gygax era, when a single sandbox setting would have multiple DMs, each player had multiple characters. A DM at took the sheet back then so players wouldn't take it to another DM and keep going and mess with the integrity of the 'sandbox'.

It was a way, way different game, too, a direct descendant of wargaming, where massive casualties were assumed. Characters died a LOT. Creating a new one took <5 minutes. People didn't invest or get attached, and sometimes didn't even name them for several levels. So, even then, for the tables that did hand over sheets, it was more like handing the cards back to the dealer after a round of poker.

Nowadays, it's a completely different game. You are a single DM. Players have characters they've invested significant time, effort, and creativity into making. They're not solving a puzzle, they're becoming an alter ego, and trying to 'be' that person to get thrills, to live out a long story arc and get a happy ending or a dramatically satisfying death. So, for you to take that sheet away from them is a way different deal.

Face it; you're literally cargo-culting. It's a rule from a different game for reasons that no longer have meaning.

And you're basically acting like Cartman saying RESPECT MY AUTHOROTAH for doing it? Nah.

[Beelzebubba]

So, don't stop DMing, but you have a choice: listen to your players, compromise a bit, and adjust the game to their 'beer and pretzel kick in the door' style, or find a new table that wants to re-enact the 'old school fantasy Vietnam'.

[Baptor]

History lesson time, kiddo. 'Hand over me the sheet' was from the Gygax era. Characters died a LOT. Creating a new one took <5 minutes. People didn't invest or get attached, and sometimes didn't even name them for several levels. So, even then, for the tables that did hand over sheets, it was more like handing the cards back to the dealer after a round of poker.

I can 100% confirm this from my own experience. My first D&D games as a player back in the 2nd AD&D days were like this. I started off very naïve. My very first character was a half-elven fighter/mage with a name and a backstory and everything. He died in the very first session by stepping on a disintegration trap.

I can't tell you the names of my next 5 characters.

I learned my lesson quick back in the old blood n' guts days of D&D. Life was brutal and short. It was still fun but in a totally different way than today.


find a new table that wants to re-enact the 'old school fantasy Vietnam'.

:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[GorogIrongut]

That said, the reason I (and a number of other people) in this thread think taking people character sheets is a bad idea is because people get emotionally attached to their characters and taking that from them can be a highly emotive thing.

OP has literally just experienced what the potential consequence of this choice they've made is. Now may be an appropriate juncture to consider if what you're gaining is worth what you're losing.

Saying 'hey you agreed to this when you didn't care about this character months ago, stop being mad now that you do care about this character' generally won't stop someone feeling mad :smalltongue:

And as I said, at my table all characters' sheets are electronic. The player AND the DM always have a copy of each character. It helps people to avoid mistakes or fudging things. It's about honesty and transparency. We don't use character sheets as trophies (something I have no issue with)... nor do we get overly attached to a character (yet again, something I don't have an issue with)... Because everyone has the sheet. By so doing, we avoid any sort of hang up.

And most importantly, in the worlds we play in, our NPC's do use PC rules. So you can reflesh a character's sheet to fit your needs at the table as a DM. It saves on the prep work a DM has to do to keep a session moving.

I can't count the number of times I've had a new npc appear out of the blue, I scrolled down my screen with no clue what I was going to do, grabbed an old PC and completely refleshed it on the fly. Session continued without interruption. My players weren't even aware I'd had a DM 'Crisis'. And ended up loving the new npc.

I keep a special folder with all of my players' characters in all their iterations. From level 5 on up to 15. So that if I need to find/use a character, I've got half a dozen variants on a rogue that go through all the levels.

[Asmotherion]

I think everything up to the claiming of the character sheets can be explained as poor communication on both sides. As DM I always try to make sure I'm not misunderstood as I hate it when the party wipes due to a silly mistake.

I'm not judging you at all, because hindsight is 20/20, but had it been me I'd have done the following:

1) Tried to make the rest pool stand out as a rest pool, "You see a glowing magic pool ahead. It looks like it would provide a form of magical healing or refreshment."

2) Given them a fair warning before freeing the beastie. "You're going to untie it? You remember that I said it was highly aggressive, right? Is that your final decision?"

That said, these things happen. They've happened to me.

The only thing I would've taken issue with is claiming their character sheets - but it sounds like it was a rule agreed upon at Session 0. If that's true, and they played knowing that's the rule, they had no grounds for withholding them from you. However, if my assumption is incorrect and you never told them beforehand that you claim sheets on death - I don't think it was a wise idea to demand them.

As far as quitting - you might need a break - only you can know that for sure. I'd advise against absolutes, however. I've seen many DMs announce they are quitting the screen (myself included) only to come back when they've cooled off. If you need a break - take a break and refresh. That break can be indefinite if you like, - but I'd avoid saying you've "quit."

On your two points:

1) How can something "Look like it would provide some means of magical healing"? Unless a character succeeds a knowlage check, and I put them into an appropriate "cutscene" that refears to the knowlage, any thought I put into their minds is probably a magical effect, and my players know that. A DM's job is to ensure there is a means for success, but failure is part of the Journey. If failure is less fun than success, death needs not be the end of the campain! There are lots of fun options to DM after a TPK.

2) Why setting an outcome if you go out of your way to prevent it? You may as well put signs to guide your players out of danger. At that point, it's not D&D anymore though, it's a medieval sitcom/drama with superpowers.

[smcmike]

1) How can something "Look like it would provide some means of magical healing"? Unless a character succeeds a knowlage check, and I put them into an appropriate "cutscene" that refears to the knowlage, any thought I put into their minds is probably a magical effect, and my players know that. A DM's job is to ensure there is a means for success, but failure is part of the Journey. If failure is less fun than success, death needs not be the end of the campain! There are lots of fun options to DM after a TPK.

You are free to give players knowledge without a check or magical effect. In fact, you do it all of the time, when you describe the world around them.



2) Why setting an outcome if you go out of your way to prevent it? You may as well put signs to guide your players out of danger. At that point, it's not D&D anymore though, it's a medieval sitcom/drama with superpowers.

If you are presenting players with ultradeadly encounters, you’d better give them some sort of a signpost. Also, maybe it’s just me, but playing a part in a “medieval sitcom/drama with superpowers” doesn’t sound so bad. Also, characters die in dramas.

[Baptor]

You are free to give players knowledge without a check or magical effect. In fact, you do it all of the time, when you describe the world around them.

If you are presenting players with ultradeadly encounters, you’d better give them some sort of a signpost. Also, maybe it’s just me, but playing a part in a “medieval sitcom/drama with superpowers” doesn’t sound so bad. Also, characters die in dramas.

Thank you! :smallsmile:

[Contrast]

2) Why setting an outcome if you go out of your way to prevent it? You may as well put signs to guide your players out of danger. At that point, it's not D&D anymore though, it's a medieval sitcom/drama with superpowers.

Because there's a difference between a player making an informed decision and a player misunderstanding what's going on?

To hijack OPs example - the DM said he made it clear the creature was enraged and wasn't going to calm down. The players may well have assumed he was enraged by being chained up and wouldn't calm down until released. This is why its often helpful for a player to explain why they're doing stuff/if a player is doing something incredibly dumb that their character would be aware of for the DM to double check they understand what they're doing. If they still want to free the giant then rock on of course :smallwink:

[Asmotherion]

You are free to give players knowledge without a check or magical effect. In fact, you do it all of the time, when you describe the world around them.



If you are presenting players with ultradeadly encounters, you’d better give them some sort of a signpost. Also, maybe it’s just me, but playing a part in a “medieval sitcom/drama with superpowers” doesn’t sound so bad. Also, characters die in dramas.

1) I personally don't. I describe visual effects. The players conclude if they are magical or not. If they want my input on something, they ask me to roll a Knowlage Check, and I tell them the appropriate knowlage check they have to roll. If I want them to roll something I inform them. However I will agree that I tend to DM very differently than most people.

2) Some people prefear to play D&D in a more realistic way, were things do go bad from time to time. As long as there was a realistically obtainable option for things not to go bad, there is no reason to compremise. Mechanically, it was a Trap that was activated. Overall, bad things tend to happen when you untie monsters from a tree.*

As a Player, I am much more anoyed when something happens, and a Merry Sue Character has to Save the Day. If the Party Fails, I'd rather accept our Failure.

3) I accept that your D&D and my D&D might be different and that's perfectly fine.

*As a DM, I would be willing to compensate for it by the "Nightmare" example. Everything was a nightmare bestowed by some mysterious being; It has taken a part of the PC's sanity. When the PCs wake up, replace either their Wis or Int score with a 6 (if one of them is their casting stat, use the other). The horrific experiance has left them mentally scarred. Until they defeat said enemy, their Mental Score cannot be increased above 8. (This way, you place a good adventure hook on top of the TPK, and hint at what you think of their course of activities :P ).


Because there's a difference between a player making an informed decision and a player misunderstanding what's going on?

To hijack OPs example - the DM said he made it clear the creature was enraged and wasn't going to calm down. The players may well have assumed he was enraged by being chained up and wouldn't calm down until released. This is why its often helpful for a player to explain why they're doing stuff/if a player is doing something incredibly dumb that their character would be aware of for the DM to double check they understand what they're doing. If they still want to free the giant then rock on of course :smallwink:

I get what you're saying... Still, it's kinda the purpose of the trap. The player trying to judge this from:
A) The Creature Type, if they know anything about it.
B) Why would the creature trapped in the first place? Was it caught by mistake, or on purpose? Who caught it?
C) Why would you rash to help a raging monster without further information of weather it is going to be good or evil? Perhaps there were more hints, but the players didn't bother looking for them. Isn't that the same like kissing a succubus? I don't see too many players complayning from dying by Succubi.

[2D6GREATAXE]

Alright, I get it everybody, nobody likes the issue with the character sheets, I think it has been conveyed fully to me. Thanks for that. To me, and my table, this has always been a rule at the table. ALWAYS. Except that normally the sheet is ripped up. You don't like it, fine, but please understand that this is normal rules to us, just like a Nat 1 is an auto-fail.
This is not about ego. I don't appreciate being called a megalomaniac. "Trophy" was meant as a more tongue-in-cheek statement, I apologize for using that wording. It is hard to convey intentions via text format. And to reference what I just stated, this has always been a rule at the table, it was present at the first game I played in as a PC. I thought it was normal in most, if not all D&D games. It isn't the character sheet itself that is the issue for me, it is about refusing to adhere to a "rule" (at least in our game). It was disrespectful to me. Not the action, but the principle behind it.

To reiterate, I informed the party this was a DARK AND TWISTED version of the Labyrinth.
They also did INSIGHT CHECK the MONSTER, I told them it could NOT be calmed down. I felt it was conveyed clearly this was not an ally.

Either way, I'm pretty sure I got enough opinions on the topic at this point. Thanks folks!


I really don't understand the level of flame certain individuals are directed towards you. Yes, there will be a certain unavoidable amount of bias coming from your side of the story, however, given your further posts I think you have cleared that up quite well.

At face value, what you have said seems reasonable. I am about to conclude a 1 year campaign which I have written from scratch where I made NEARLY every encounter deadly. I prewarned my group ahead of time and although I haven't had any player deaths, I have had quite a few death saving incidents.

As some have said, paper can be photo copied. I like that you incorporate the PC's to NPC's down the road and if I had a player die in your campaign I would be kinda honoured that I could interact with him/her at a later stage as either an NPC or an enemy. EDIT: Plus I would love to see someone else take on my role-play as that character.

Now to answer your question!
Absolutely not! Don't stop GM'ing unless you want to. You have clearly been doing a good job if this is your first altercation, my group is made of type 1 personality types and we have a heated discussion at least once every time we play (sometimes as the players are new, sometimes due to confusion).

What I would suggest is ask for some 360 degree feedback from ALL the players. Basically a bunch of questions to gauge what they thought about your style of DMing. I usually like to go with the STOP, START, CONTINUE method (as well as some additional questions).

What would you like me to START doing?
What would you like me to STOP doing?
What would you like me to CONTNIUE doing?

Other questions include (directed at the player):
what was your favourite part? what was your least favourite part? What would YOU do different? Would you want me to DM again?

My only advise is to be open to all feedback/criticism, you can only get better by learning where your faults are.

On a personal note, I think you handled your replies to this thread and some of the less appropriate comments like a gentleman "HAZARR"

[Contrast]

I get what you're saying... Still, it's kinda the purpose of the trap. The player trying to judge this from:
A) The Creature Type, if they know anything about it.
B) Why would the creature trapped in the first place? Was it caught by mistake, or on purpose? Who caught it?
C) Why would you rash to help a raging monster without further information of weather it is going to be good or evil? Perhaps there were more hints, but the players didn't bother looking for them. Isn't that the same like kissing a succubus? I don't see too many players complayning from dying by Succubi.


And if a player whose character should know what a succubus was found a chained up succubus and immediately said 'I unchain them and give them a kiss' I would say to the player '...you do remember what a succubus is right?'.

If a player is about to walk over a cliff because they thought the bridge you mentioned earlier is there rather than 1 mile away as a DM you don't say 'ha you walk over a cliff to your death'. You explain and correct their misunderstanding. If they still want to walk off the cliff after that ('maybe there's an invisible bridge!') then that's on them :smallbiggrin:

[Delicious Taffy]

Hey, but for real. I used to be a DM, and it ended in disaster. Your circumstances are nowhere near as dire as mine were, and you could still salvage the campaign if you wanted.

If you really feel that quitting the role is best for you, that's a valid choice to make. But if you don't want to quit, it's just as easy as deciding not to. From the sound of it, this is just a sour patch, and those pass if you let them.

[smcmike]

I personally don't. I describe visual effects. The players conclude if they are magical or not. If they want my input on something, they ask me to roll a Knowlage Check, and I tell them the appropriate knowlage check they have to roll. If I want them to roll something I inform them. However I will agree that I tend to DM very differently than most people.

My point was that “describing visual effects” fits within the category of “any thought I put into their minds.”

Checks are for when the question is in doubt. When it isn’t in doubt, in either direction, you should dispense with them. In a social situation, you tell the PCs that an NPC is obviously, transparently lying without asking for an insight check. You can tell them about the approaching Orc war party in an open field without a perception check. You can tell them that the magical glowing fountain is magical without an arcana check.



Some people prefear to play D&D in a more realistic way, were things do go bad from time to time. As long as there was a realistically obtainable option for things not to go bad, there is no reason to compremise. Mechanically, it was a Trap that was activated. Overall, bad things tend to happen when you untie monsters from a tree.*

As a Player, I am much more anoyed when something happens, and a Merry Sue Character has to Save the Day. If the Party Fails, I'd rather accept our Failure.

I agree that negative outcomes must be a possibility for the game to remain fresh. I doubt your claim of realism, though. It’s perfectly realistic (in a fantasy setting) for the PCs to be attacked and eaten by an ancient dragon, or ambushed by 50 orcs after leaving the tavern for their first adventure at level 1. It would also be incredibly dumb, as reality often is.

I suspect that you actually do use narrative an signposting for dangers, because the game wouldn’t be much fun without those elements.

[Roderack]

Quick history check, if I may: calling 2d8HP (or any other old-schooler), was taking the character sheet of a dead PC a common practice in the olden days?
I've been DMing since 1978 and I've never heard of a DM demanding a dead character's sheet from a player under any circumstances. I have seen a DM tell a player that their character might be brought back as a ghostly or spirit NPC, and ask to make a copy of the character sheet for that purpose with the players permission.

The world is the property of the DM, but the characters belong to their players.

[Roderack]

You've received a fair amount of push back over taking the character sheets "of characters you kill", not characters who've died in your game but ones that you've killed.

Then there is this from your comment #11 "I do everything to make the players enjoy the session. To me, if I want that character sheet, its mine. And refusing that, and storming out mad because things didn't go your way makes me wish I didn't waste my time."

In a later follow up you state that your use of the word trophies was tongue in cheek. Forgive me if I find that more than a bit disingenuous.

You appear to consider killing a character as some type of achievement that earns you the character's sheet, like the head of a animal you can hang on your wall. You should not be surprised that some players and DMs might find that more than a bit disturbing.

As I mentioned earlier, I've been DMing a long time. Two of my worlds supported various campaigns for more than a decade. Relatively early in each world the players became experienced enough that many of the encounters had a high potential to be lethal, but I never built any encounter with the intention to kill a character. That's not to say that characters never died. Sometime players can be amazingly boneheaded, and stupid arrogant play in my worlds tended to have fatal consequences.

There is a difference between extremely dangerous situations and those designed to kill. As DM you are the players eyes, ears, and gut feelings about the world. They are dependent on you for all information all the time. If you build encounters to kill them if they make a mistake, eventually they will make a mistake and it's almost certain you'll run the encounter as you designed it and you will kill them.

Should you stop DMing?

Some DMs are "killer" DMs. They run games with the intent to kill their player's characters. They seem to have no problem finding players. That style of campaign has little appeal to me, but different strokes. You are the only person who knows your intent when you designed the trap and when it was tripped. Only you know the type of game you wish to run.

There are too few DMs around. Even fewer with the commitment and talent to create a world and run games in it for years. Your players must enjoy playing in your world or they wouldn't have stayed around to play in it. So you must be doing a lot of things right. But the players reaction to the last run should be a signal that things didn't go right. Odds are that their perception of your description of the encounter setting was very different from yours. You'd be well advised to explore that with them.

I'd say as long as you enjoy running games you should continue to DM, but I also think you should examine your motivations and goals as a DM.

[2D8HP]

I've been DMing since 1978...


Steadily since 1978?

I first DM'd in '78 as well (with my little brother as a victim player), but on and off afterwards (mostly off, I went decades with no D&D), but if you've been DM'ing most years since you have my admiration @Roderack, and https://i.pinimg.com/originals/41/46/f6/4146f6220eaa9360c920f2136bac4a11.gif

[Baptor]

I've been DMing since 1978 and I've never heard of a DM demanding a dead character's sheet from a player under any circumstances. I have seen a DM tell a player that their character might be brought back as a ghostly or spirit NPC, and ask to make a copy of the character sheet for that purpose with the players permission.

The world is the property of the DM, but the characters belong to their players.

I've only been playing/DMing since 1998 but my first (and favorite) DM started with the original game in the early 70s and yes - he took up character sheets on death. They weren't "trophies" however - there was just an assumed idea that he owned everything related to his game - including the sheets. He also took them all up after every session and kept them for us. He even had custom content in his game that he copyrighted. That also may have had something to do with it.

What's interesting is that he was such a great DM - not only in all the ways you'd imagine - but also in terms of taking care of his players. He brought "community dice" for anyone who didn't have dice or forgot them. He had a "community" player's handbook for the same purpose. He had these SUPER awesome character sheets he printed for everyone. People who'd never played D&D could come in off the street and join his game. He was so welcoming of anyone and everyone and helped anyone learn how to play AD&D 2nd edition - no mean feat.

He was old school though. Traps were brutal (remember my aforementioned disintegration trap incident), lots of save or die effects, and he pulled NO punches. Characters died all the time - but he rewarded creative thinking and good role playing. The only thing he put his foot down on was you HAD to make a good aligned character. No villains, no anti-heroes, no grey-morals. You were a do-gooder. This, he claimed from decades of experience, resolved many of the issues tables with a random assortment of disparate people might cause. It never bothered me - I always like playing good guys.

There are days when I'd give anything to play in his games again. He was that good.

Like I said, he claimed character sheets after death. Of course in most cases the character sheet you were using was a photocopy of HIS sheet so it never occurred to us to complain.

Now that I think about it - the most important thing as a DM is consistency. Whatever you do - don't change it and do it all the time. It's changing your rules and standards - being unpredictable - that angers most players. DMing is a lot like parenting in that regard.

Come to think of it, DMing is probably more like parenting that most of us would like to admit. :smallbiggrin:

[Vykryl]

Did your players forget Sarah waited for Ludo to calm down before releasing him from his net? Find a way to pacify the beast before releasing it. Feed it, speak gently, let it get familiar with you. Letting an angry, scared, confused beast loose is asking for trouble.

[Chugger]

Yes, stop DMing. Play for two solid years and learn some humility.

Trophies indeed. Not an attitude I support. If I ever find myself at your table and I kill a kobold, I'm going to demand you tear out that page from your MM and hand it to me. I'm joking to make a point.

Players - you have choices - leave any DM's table where you feel uncomfortable or are not having fun. Yes, they have to provide a challenge - but no, you don't have to stay there and accept what amounts to abuse or a bad time.