Best Fighting Style+Weapon+Feats for Paladin Vengeance

[FoxDropz]

Sup guys!

Im having a hard time deciding which Fighting Style+Weapon+Feats I should go for.

My character will be a Half-Elf Paladin or Variant Human, that will take Oath of Vengeance. He will have a Soldier background. The main attribute will be STR. We are gonna use Standard Array ( 15-14-13-12-10-8.). I wanna build a Paladin that will be able to do a lot of single target damage but at the same time be able to tank the foes, survive and be useful in combat. The campaign will end around level 10, with the possibility of extending it.

*One important detail is that the DM will ignore Sage Advice, he will only use the basic books like PHB. Sticking to the book RAW. So the GWF damage reroll will apply to Divine Smite, Improved Divine Smite, etc.

Fighting Styles: Great Weapon Fighting, Dueling, Defense, Protection?
Weapons: Great Weapon, Polearm, Sword and Shield, etc..?
Feats: Great Weapon Master, Polearm Master, Shield Master, Sentinel, Resilient, etc..?

So what do you guys think is the best setup for Fighting Style, Weapon and Feats for my character?

[Ganymede]

It really doesn't matter.

Take a fighting style that works with your preferred weapon, take literally any feat at all (even non-combat feats), and you will have an effective and useful character that will contribute to your group's adventuring.

[FoxDropz]

It really doesn't matter.

Take a fighting style that works with your preferred weapon, take literally any feat at all (even non-combat feats), and you will have an effective and useful character that will contribute to your group's adventuring.

I think its an important part of the character.. the combat is kinda based on those points =S

[Angelalex242]

Don't worry so much about strength. Gauntlets of Ogre Power and Belts of Giant Strength mean it's better to focus on charisma.

Cause there isn't a cloak of charisma that I know of at the moment...though there probably should be. (Also Periapt of Wisdom and Gloves of Dexterity)

[Ganymede]

I think its an important part of the character.. the combat is kinda based on those points =S

Exactly... whatever you choose, your character will be able to whup backside in combat.

[Foxhound438]

your channel divinity at 3rd level gives you free advantage vs. 1 creature per short rest (read per fight for most tables) so great weapon master is going to give you a lot of benefit. Whether you use a greatsword or a glaive right then is whatever, both have heavy, but later on you'd want to pick up polearm master for the extra swing anyways. Great weapon fighting in any case provides a good amount of value by making it really hard to roll crap damage on your smites, so I'd just go for that.

[Snowbluff]

You can combine Great Weapon Master + Polearm Master for 3 attacks at +10. If you've got a pair of ogre gauntlets, you don't really need the ASIs for anything else. :smalltongue:

IMO Devotion is better than Vengeance in some cases; getting advantage can be pretty easy if you have a team backing you up, but getting a flat bonus to attack is often far more rare.

[FoxDropz]

your channel divinity at 3rd level gives you free advantage vs. 1 creature per short rest (read per fight for most tables) so great weapon master is going to give you a lot of benefit. Whether you use a greatsword or a glaive right then is whatever, both have heavy, but later on you'd want to pick up polearm master for the extra swing anyways. Great weapon fighting in any case provides a good amount of value by making it really hard to roll crap damage on your smites, so I'd just go for that.

GWM+Polearm would be a really agressive build, right? Would I be able to tank a bit? Without Sentinel or whatever?


You can combine Great Weapon Master + Polearm Master for 3 attacks at +10. If you've got a pair of ogre gauntlets, you don't really need the ASIs for anything else. :smalltongue:

IMO Devotion is better than Vengeance in some cases; getting advantage can be pretty easy if you have a team backing you up, but getting a flat bonus to attack is often far more rare.

I hear you, but Im really set on Vengeance. Same question as Foxhound, GWM+Polearm would be a really agressive build, right? Would I be able to tank a bit? Without Sentinel or whatever?

[rbstr]

If you want more damage and only want to spend one feat I'd go:
Sword+Board, Dueling style and Shieldmaster for tankyness and shoving people over for advantage.
Polearm, defense style or GWF, and PAM for damage
or Greatsword, defense style or GWF, and great weapon master for damage.

Really any of these might like the Sentinel feat eventually (or instead of the one I listed). That'll give you more control over enemies.
Also, if you have an odd strength score Heavy Armor Master might be worth it. It scales better than you might think as creatures get multi attack ect. Can add up to a decent chunk of HP saved in a round.

The PAM option works pretty well with GWM and Sentinel but that's a lot of feats.


Don't worry so much about strength. Gauntlets of Ogre Power and Belts of Giant Strength mean it's better to focus on charisma.

Only until you don't get one of these items...the chance of actually rolling a specific item like this is very, very low. Clearly we don't know if he'll get to chose a magic item at some point but it's a bit ridiculous to base a character's stats on getting extremely lucky.

[Blood of Gaea]

GWM+Polearm would be a really agressive build, right? Would I be able to tank a bit? Without Sentinel or whatever?



I hear you, but Im really set on Vengeance. Same question as Foxhound, GWM+Polearm would be a really aggressive build, right? Would I be able to tank a bit? Without Sentinel or whatever?
You'll have high HP, great saves, and Lay on Hands, so you'll make a good tank no matter what.

[FoxDropz]

The PAM option works pretty well with GWM and Sentinel but that's a lot of feats.

Only until you don't get one of these items...the chance of actually rolling a specific item like this is very, very low. Clearly we don't know if he'll get to chose a magic item at some point but it's a bit ridiculous to base a character's stats on getting extremely lucky.

Is it worth to sacrifice ASIs for 3 feats?
About the magic item, it is possible that our DM do something like that at some point. If he did, the best item I could choose would be the Gauntlets of Ogre Power or Belts of Giant Strength? Or there are other items I should get?


You'll have high HP, great saves, and Lay on Hands, so you'll make a good tank no matter what.

Got it!

[Zanthy1]

Is it worth to sacrifice ASIs for 3 feats?
About the magic item, it is possible that our DM do something like that at some point. If he did, the best item I could choose would be the Gauntlets of Ogre Power or Belts of Giant Strength? Or there are other items I should get?

3 feats is a lot, but would totally be worth it if combined with one of those magic items. The order I would take them in is: GWM, PAM, Sentinel. GWM for the massive damage that can be used with any great weapon (take the GWF fighting style), and by the time you get to your next ASI, if you haven't found a better non-polearm magic weapon, take PAM. You'll be doing massive damage and have effective tanking abilities. Finally, around level 12 take sentinel which will allow you to shut down movement, adding to the tanking.

If you were to make some changes, I'd go vhuman (free feat means you can get all 3 by level 8 and can spend the rest on uppiing charisma or constitution). Vengeance or Devotion are both excellent, personally I am playing a devotion now but my past vengeance ones have been fun.

[FoxDropz]

3 feats is a lot, but would totally be worth it if combined with one of those magic items. The order I would take them in is: GWM, PAM, Sentinel. GWM for the massive damage that can be used with any great weapon (take the GWF fighting style), and by the time you get to your next ASI, if you haven't found a better non-polearm magic weapon, take PAM. You'll be doing massive damage and have effective tanking abilities. Finally, around level 12 take sentinel which will allow you to shut down movement, adding to the tanking.

If you were to make some changes, I'd go vhuman (free feat means you can get all 3 by level 8 and can spend the rest on uppiing charisma or constitution). Vengeance or Devotion are both excellent, personally I am playing a devotion now but my past vengeance ones have been fun.

Oh nice! That would be a great alternative, cause maybe this campaign wont go that far... level 12 is a long shot, you know...
You had a Vengeance Paladin? awesome!!
So Variant Human taking the feats at lvl1 +2 abilits scores would be better than Half-elf taking the +2 CHA, +2 ability scores? There are other features too that I would trade-off... Hmm that a interesting route indeed... wonder if it is better

EDIT: Actually I just spoke with the DM and he said our campaign will have a level cap.. it will ends around level 10! Maybe continue after that.. but the campaign is set to end at lvl10 anyway..

[Blood of Gaea]

Looking at everything listed in the OP, I would personally go for:

Fighting Style: Great Weapon Fighting.

Weapon: Greatsword or maul.

Str: 15+1
Dex: 12 or 14.
Con: 13+1
Int: 8, 12, or 14.
Wis: 8, 12, or 14.
Cha: 14+2

Choose Dex, Int, and Wis to fit the wanted flavor of your PC.

I would put the first ASI into +2 Str, and the second into +2 Cha.

[FoxDropz]

Looking at everything listed in the OP, I would personally go for:

Fighting Style: Great Weapon Fighting.

Weapon: Greatsword or maul.

Str: 15+1
Dex: 12 or 14.
Con: 13+1
Int: 8, 12, or 14.
Wis: 8, 12, or 14.
Cha: 14+2

Choose Dex, Int, and Wis to fit the wanted flavor of your PC.

I would put the first ASI into +2 Str, and the second into +2 Cha.

But why would should I give up on other feats?

[Blood of Gaea]

But why would should I give up on other feats?
+2 Str gives you an extra +1 to Hit, and +Cha gives a bump to your charisma based abilities, namely Aura of Protection, which boosts you and your parties saving roles. Boosting saving roles is absolutely amazing.

A very good chunk of your damage is going to coming from smites, so while GWM is a generally a big bump to dpr, being more accurate to land smites is also good.

PAM is a great feat, as the extra attack lets you land more attacks that can be used for smites making you more consistent. If you wanted to go the route of polearms, I would take PAM at level 4 and +2 Str at level 8. That said, with your limited resources per day, you'll probably not want to smite 3 times a turn very often. PAM also stacks well with Improved Divine Smite, provided your group does end up going past level 10, you can always take PAM at 12.

[FoxDropz]

+2 Str gives you an extra +1 to Hit, and +Cha gives a bump to your charisma based abilities, namely Aura of Protection, which boosts you and your parties saving roles. Boosting saving roles is absolutely amazing.

A very good chunk of your damage is going to coming from smites, so while GWM is a generally a big bump to dpr, being more accurate to land smites is also good.

PAM is a great feat, as the extra attack lets you land more attacks that can be used for smites making you more consistent. If you wanted to go the route of polearms, I would take PAM at level 4 and +2 Str at level 8. That said, with your limited resources per day, you'll probably not want to smite 3 times a turn very often. PAM also stacks well with Improved Divine Smite, provided your group does end up going past level 10, you can always take PAM at 12.

I can change to Variant Human instead of Half Elf and grab that first feat at lvl1 too. What do you think?

[Blood of Gaea]

I can change to Variant Human instead of Half Elf and grab that first feat at lvl1 too. What do you think?
That would work fine, you're basically trading a +2 Cha increase for PAM, which is a fair enough trade. You also lose out on a proficiency, which may or may not matter to you.

Vuman Feat: PAM
Level 4 ASI: +2 Str.
Level 8 ASI: +2 Cha.

Str: 15+1
Dex: 10 or 12.
Con: 14
Int: 8, 10, or 12.
Wis: 8, 10, or 12.
Cha: 13+1

Personally, I would prefer the first build for the higher Cha and extra proficiency, but either will work quite well.

[Amdy_vill]

i like dualist of defective with a shield and longsword and for the feat sentinel

[FoxDropz]

That would work fine, you're basically trading a +2 Cha increase for PAM, which is a fair enough trade. You also lose out on a proficiency, which may or may not matter to you.

Vuman Feat: PAM
Level 4 ASI: +2 Str.
Level 8 ASI: +2 Cha.

Str: 15+1
Dex: 10 or 12.
Con: 14
Int: 8, 10, or 12.
Wis: 8, 10, or 12.
Cha: 13+1

Personally, I would prefer the first build for the higher Cha and extra proficiency, but either will work quite well.

You wouldnt grab like:

Vuman Feat: PAM
Level 4 ASI: Sentinel
Level 8 ASI: GWM

Too manny feats? not worth?

[Blood of Gaea]

You wouldnt grab like:

Vuman Feat: PAM
Level 4 ASI: Sentinel
Level 8 ASI: GWM

Too manny feats? not worth?
You can do that, but not being able to grab Str bonuses won't synergize well with GWM, as it wants some decent bonuses to hit. Sentinal could be swapped for the +2 Cha ASI, but again, Paladins really like bumping up their Cha scores, so it's a lot to trade for.

If you have an idea of what you want in your head, go for that and let optimization come later, take Sentinel and GWM if you like the flavor.

[rbstr]

IMO Great Weapon Master is severely overrated at lower levels. You miss far too often without reliable advantage and your resources for producing advantage are pretty limited then. This is particularly notable on a Paladin who is reliant on hitting things to smite. Sacrificing a strength ASI to take a ton of feats will make it all the worse.

Variant Human and Half Elf are basically equal in feats/stats: VHuman trades an ASI in cha at level one for a feat.
Basically, with a typical build, by level 8 then end up equal in stats/feats.
But the half elf has a couple key benefits - another skill proficiency and darkvision. Both can be very useful.

You can easily start at 16 strength and Cha with the HalfElf and standard array. You can spend your level 4 asi on a feat and be fine. But at level 8 you probably want to +2 strength.
Human is going to be 16 strength 14 cha at best starting. You'd take a feat or +2 strength at level 4 so you'll have less charisma until at least level 4, more likely level 8 or 12.
Level 6 is where your Charisma bonus really starts to matter (your aura) if you're Paladin that's mostly smiting with spellslots.
If you like doing a bit more spellcasting then the earlier charisma is more useful.

[Pex]

Ask your DM if great weapon style works on smites. Some DMs say yes, others say no, Sage Advice irrelevant. If yes, there you go, and you wouldn't need Great Weapon Master though it's fine if you do take it.

Since Vengeance Paladins get advantage to attack their chosen foe, that would be a good opportunity to use Great Weapon Master.

Since Vengeance Paladins get Hunter's Mark as a spell, Dueling for the +2 damage and the spell with a longsword is 1d8 + 1d6 + 2 + ST modifier which is roughly the same as a two-handed weapon with great weapon style but without Great Weapon Master and you get to have a shield.

[FoxDropz]

Ask your DM if great weapon style works on smites. Some DMs say yes, others say no, Sage Advice irrelevant. If yes, there you go, and you wouldn't need Great Weapon Master though it's fine if you do take it.

Since Vengeance Paladins get advantage to attack their chosen foe, that would be a good opportunity to use Great Weapon Master.

Since Vengeance Paladins get Hunter's Mark as a spell, Dueling for the +2 damage and the spell with a longsword is 1d8 + 1d6 + 2 + ST modifier which is roughly the same as a two-handed weapon with great weapon style but without Great Weapon Master and you get to have a shield.

Yep, Great Weapon rerolls will be aplied to smites

[coyote_sly]

If your DM allows GWM fighting style reroll to apply for all your dice, take it in a heartbeat.

[Foxhound438]

GWM+Polearm would be a really agressive build, right? Would I be able to tank a bit? Without Sentinel or whatever?

As the other guy said, there's a lot of tankiness in paladin anyways: heavy armor plus if you want defense style for very respectable AC, lay on hands for healing, aura of protection for saves... If you're looking for ways to "lock down" an enemy and prevent them from attacking your allies, there are a few great options on the paladin spell list: compelled duel to force a thing to fight you, thunderous smite to get some forced movement, and a well timed wrathful smite can prevent enemies from reaching your backline or at the very least impose disadvantage.

[Citan]

Sup guys!

Im having a hard time deciding which Fighting Style+Weapon+Feats I should go for.

My character will be a Half-Elf Paladin or Variant Human, that will take Oath of Vengeance. He will have a Soldier background. The main attribute will be STR. We are gonna use Standard Array ( 15-14-13-12-10-8.). I wanna build a Paladin that will be able to do a lot of single target damage but at the same time be able to tank the foes, survive and be useful in combat. The campaign will end around level 10, with the possibility of extending it.

*One important detail is that the DM will ignore Sage Advice, he will only use the basic books like PHB. Sticking to the book RAW. So the GWF damage reroll will apply to Divine Smite, Improved Divine Smite, etc.

Fighting Styles: Great Weapon Fighting, Dueling, Defense, Protection?
Weapons: Great Weapon, Polearm, Sword and Shield, etc..?
Feats: Great Weapon Master, Polearm Master, Shield Master, Sentinel, Resilient, etc..?

So what do you guys think is the best setup for Fighting Style, Weapon and Feats for my character?
Hey ;)

Usually I'd be partial to a sword and board build to mix with Vengeance abilities... But if your DM will allow all dice to be rerolled with GWM feature, then you definitely must go the GWM+GWM way. ;)

As others said you'll still be resilient overall.

[FoxDropz]

Hey ;)

Usually I'd be partial to a sword and board build to mix with Vengeance abilities... But if your DM will allow all dice to be rerolled with GWM feature, then you definitely must go the GWM+GWM way. ;)

As others said you'll still be resilient overall.

Would you go:

Variant Human Feat:GWM?
Level 4: PAM/Sentinel or ASI?
Level 8: PAM/Sentinel or ASI?

Half-elf
Level 4: GWM
Level 8: PAM/Sentinel or ASI?

[Citan]

Would you go:

Variant Human Feat:GWM?
Level 4: PAM/Sentinel or ASI?
Level 8: PAM/Sentinel or ASI?

Half-elf
Level 4: GWM
Level 8: PAM/Sentinel or ASI?
I'd say every option is good, so it's rather a matter of taste.

I'd personally go Half-Elf simply because CHA affects number of spell prepared and Aura of Protection among other things, so I'd say it's important enough to warrant a good starting CHA. But it's my own taste. :)

[goycherizer]

Here's a slightly important question: How does Find Steed play into your build decisions?
You should hash out with your DM how that is going to work (i.e. intelligent or non-intelligent rules) - in the 03/15/2018 episode of the Dragon Talk podcast, JC explicitly stated that you are meant to be able to choose each time.

In either case, the least you get is extra mobility each round in the form of Dash or Disengage, and protection for youm mount through Dodge.

You mentioned that your DM is going to be running everything RAW by the core books.
As that is the case, it is very much worth mentioning that by strict RAW, YOU do not provoke OAs when the mount moves you out of an enemy's melee reach, because it does not use YOUR movement.


You can avoid provoking an opportunity attack by taking the Disengage action. You also don't provoke an opportunity attack when you teleport or when someone or something moves you without using your movement, action, or reaction.

With this in mind, your mount can Disengage each round, granting you free run of the entire battlefield until your DM starts setting up encounters indoors, with a lot of obstacles, and tossing Sentinel onto a couple of NPCs/monsters.


Clarity on the Share Spells portion may be worth hammering out as well. With it as written, there is nothing to say that the effect of a non-instantaneous spell would not persist for the entire duration. You'd get Haste towards the end of your campaign (level 9) but I just got to use it for the first time on my V.Pal and DAAAAAAAAAAAAANNG was that fun. The extra action each round lets your mount Dash and Disengage at the same time (or either of those and attack if it's acting independently), which is pretty good for getting to spread-out opponents or propping up downed allies with Lay On Hands.
Misty Stepping your warhorse into someone's face is also ridiculously fun. :smallcool:


What I'm trying to say, is that you could literally build your character around the fact that you will eventually get access to this spell - because mounted combat is powerful, which makes the spell with none of the other goodies it gives you powerful, and every other class feature you get makes a strong enough package to carry you through the encounters where you are inevitably separated.

[FoxDropz]

Here's a slightly important question: How does Find Steed play into your build decisions?
You should hash out with your DM how that is going to work (i.e. intelligent or non-intelligent rules) - in the 03/15/2018 episode of the Dragon Talk podcast, JC explicitly stated that you are meant to be able to choose each time.

In either case, the least you get is extra mobility each round in the form of Dash or Disengage, and protection for youm mount through Dodge.

You mentioned that your DM is going to be running everything RAW by the core books.
As that is the case, it is very much worth mentioning that by strict RAW, YOU do not provoke OAs when the mount moves you out of an enemy's melee reach, because it does not use YOUR movement.



With this in mind, your mount can Disengage each round, granting you free run of the entire battlefield until your DM starts setting up encounters indoors, with a lot of obstacles, and tossing Sentinel onto a couple of NPCs/monsters.


Clarity on the Share Spells portion may be worth hammering out as well. With it as written, there is nothing to say that the effect of a non-instantaneous spell would not persist for the entire duration. You'd get Haste towards the end of your campaign (level 9) but I just got to use it for the first time on my V.Pal and DAAAAAAAAAAAAANNG was that fun. The extra action each round lets your mount Dash and Disengage at the same time (or either of those and attack if it's acting independently), which is pretty good for getting to spread-out opponents or propping up downed allies with Lay On Hands.
Misty Stepping your warhorse into someone's face is also ridiculously fun. :smallcool:


What I'm trying to say, is that you could literally build your character around the fact that you will eventually get access to this spell - because mounted combat is powerful, which makes the spell with none of the other goodies it gives you powerful, and every other class feature you get makes a strong enough package to carry you through the encounters where you are inevitably separated.

I dont know.. that seems a bit broken, isnt it? lol Might be something the DM would tweak once he notices... :smallbiggrin:
But I dont know, I think I wouldnt want to do mounted combat anyway :smallconfused:

[Pex]

Yep, Great Weapon rerolls will be aplied to smites


If your DM allows GWM fighting style reroll to apply for all your dice, take it in a heartbeat.

Absolutely.

I know from experience. It is a significant difference. You are spike damage king.

You won't need Great Weapon Master for the damage, but since you'll have Advantage against your chosen foe it could work. Fiends and Undead go down hard.

[Blood of Gaea]

-snip-
There's not really any optimizing to do unless he wants to take the Mounted Combatant feat and go sword and board to use a lance.

[goycherizer]

I dont know.. that seems a bit broken, isnt it? lol Might be something the DM would tweak once he notices... :smallbiggrin:

I mean... Yeah? It's deliberately powerful, which is why you take your DM out for a pint to ask them those questions before the campaign starts. You give them a chance to get familiar with the spell and associated rules before you get access to it, and if they aren't prepared... That's on them. Indoor encounters, obstacles, difficult terrain, and heavily forested areas, all are feasible ways to challenge the mounted paladin without touching the spell or any monster statblocks.


Also, if you don't think you want to get into mounted combat that much, that's totally cool too! Use it to conjure up a loyal mastiff to help you sniff snuff out evildoers instead. You would miss out on a few things, but it would still be intelligent, loyal, and have a telepathic bond to you, which makes a strong case for you controlling it in combat without having to defer to JC's guidance on the matter confirming that you do. You wouldn't have to use your action to do so, and it would have its own turns each round, so you'd be like a Beastmaster ranger with better action economy.


EDIT: To be clear - mounted combat is a powerful tool (just like IRL), and that is especially noticeable if you are the only one on horseback. That said, it's not unbeatable, and a warhorse still has the normal 19HP. It's also entirely possible to have your entire party mounted by that point - a warhorse costs 400gp each, and a riding horse goes for 75gp each.

[goycherizer]

There's not really any optimizing to do unless he wants to take the Mounted Combatant feat and go sword and board to use a lance.

Pretty much, yeah. The interaction with Shield Master in this situation amuses me - the shove prone means you just get a normal roll on your lance. :D

[Blood of Gaea]

Pretty much, yeah. The interaction with Shield Master in this situation amuses me - the shove prone means you just get a normal roll on your lance. :D
Eh, just have the mount disengage and move 5 feet away.

[goycherizer]

Eh, just have the mount disengage and move 5 feet away.

You would still have disadvantage and advantage cancelling each other out in that case.


An attack roll against the creature has advantage if the attacker is within 5 feet of the creature. Otherwise, the attack roll has disadvantage.

[Blood of Gaea]

You would still have disadvantage and advantage cancelling each other out in that case.
You still have to worry about creatures equal or greater in size to your mount.

[goycherizer]

You still have to worry about creatures equal or greater in size to your mount.

You aren't wrong! At the same time, though, that's definitely not a situation in which the two feats interact. :smalltongue:

[FoxDropz]

I mean... Yeah? It's deliberately powerful, which is why you take your DM out for a pint to ask them those questions before the campaign starts.

Well, I kinda did that right now but on Discord lol.. I explained to him the mechanics that you told me and he said that he wouldnt forbid it, but he asked me if I could go for a diferent build.. cause it would be a little bit hard to handle for the things he was planning for the combat encounters, might get a little bit too much OP. So we agreed that I would do mounted combat, which is fine cause I wasnt really going to anyway. He said it was a really smart move btw, good call goycherizer! :smallsmile:

[FoxDropz]

Im definitely going for Great Weapon Fighting as my Fighting Style!

Im still trying to figure out which race to go (Variant Human or Half-elf) to synergize with the feats/ASIs that I would choose at levels 1,4 and 8.

All the options that you guys providede seems awesome!! :smallbiggrin:

[Citan]

Im definitely going for Great Weapon Fighting as my Fighting Style!

Im still trying to figure out which race to go (Variant Human or Half-elf) to synergize with the feats/ASIs that I would choose at levels 1,4 and 8.

Variant Human Feat:GWM?
Level 4: PAM/Sentinel or ASI?
Level 8: PAM/Sentinel or ASI?

Half-elf
Level 4: GWM
Level 8: PAM/Sentinel or ASI?

All the options that you guys providede seems awesome!! :smallbiggrin:
Hey again ;)

Let me try to help you.
Follow the questionnaire under.

1. Defense.
a) How important self-resilience is for you?
- enough to survive my sworn enemy (0)
- I don't want to have to worry about my health (+1 ASI-CHA)
- I want to taaaaaaaaank! (+1 ASI, + 1 Sentinel, -1 PAM)

b) How important party resilience is to you?
- We are all grown-up, they'll take care of themselves.
- I'll probably keep a Bless or something to help them (-1 PAM).
- I want to take good care of my friends, especially the squishy ones (+2 ASI-CHA).

2. Offense
a) How do you expect to choose enemies (pick only one here)?
- I'll keep my sworn enemy in a duel until he's dead (+1 Sentinel, +1 Warcaster).
- I want to rush through the battlefield (+1 Warcaster for Haste).
- I'll try to aggro several enemies and make them stick to me (+1 Sentinel, +1 Warcaster).

b) How do you expect to deal damage (pick only one here)?
- Number of attacks (+1 PAM and/or +1 Warcaster, +1 ASI-STR)
- Higher damage against my sworn enemy (+2 GWM)
- Higher damage against low-AC enemies (+1 GWM, +2 ASI-STR).

c) How do you think you'll blow slots most often (choose one)?
- Smite SMITE SMITE!!! (+2 PAM, +1 Warcaster).
- Half smite, half concentration spells (+1 Sentinel or PAM, +1 Warcaster or Resilient: CON)
- Smite only when it's absolutely needed, otherwise I'll use buffs (+1 Resilient: CON, +1 ASI-CHA).
- Smite only when it's absolutely needed, otherwise I'll use smite spells/Hunter's Mark (-1 PAM, +1 Warcaster or Resilient: CON).

Make the total, you should get your priorities.
If ASI-CHA gets several points, Half-Elf it is: it's just much better imo to start with a 16 CHA and not bump it for a good while than start Variant Human and struggle after to choose between bumping CHA or doing something else.
Otherwise Variant Human.

Then you can just list the feats by reverse priority. ;=)

A few explications.
- PAM: gives you a permanent bonus action, which is good, but your bonus action may also be used on smite spells and Hunter's Mark. So chances are that benefit is mostly useless to you. Then comes the "OA when entering reach": this is great to inflict damage to one enemy before he can even attack you: but because of that, you great a strong motive to NOT attack you. So if you want to tank, meaning you want to draw enemies to you, it's counter-productive.

- Resilient: CON / Warcaster: great overall to keep whatever spell you are using active. Note that since you'll go two-handed, and by RAI you can drop one hand to cast a spell as long as you can still use both hands to make weapon attacks, the "don't care about somatic" part of Warcaster is of little interest to you. Furthermore, while advantage on concentration saves is good, and the best early on, Resilient: CON will be better for you overall, not only because bonus ends better than advantage, but also because you get much better resisting some nasty effects.
With that said, Warcaster would also allow you to use Command, which can be a good alternative way to keep them near you. ^^
Note that if you plan on using Haste at least one of them is mandatory. You just can't risk ending stunned in the middle of enemies.

- Sentinel is self-explanatory, and good whatever way you go really.


Hope that helps, have fun!

[Arkhios]

This is probably a very unpopular opinion, but I wouldn't bother with GWM nor PAM.

Many of the Paladin's spells use your bonus action to cast, so those feats might not see their full potential as often as you'd like.

Great Weapon Fighting with Greatsword or Maul and the potential for smites is imho quite enough for paladin to be great. In fact, GWM feels like an overkill after rolling all those dice.

Divine Favor is much better for extra damage. Although it's "only" a 1d4 and takes up one spell slot, it lasts for 1 minute (ten rounds) and when you crit, it gets doubled like the rest of your dice. And if I'm not mistaken, RAW, Great Weapon Fighting would let you reroll even those dice. I would recommend taking your Str up asap, rather than take GWM that would reduce your chance to hit. Hitting more often means you get to kill them faster. +10 to damage for a single hit is certainly tempting but I wouldn't say it's worth it.

[FoxDropz]

Hey again ;)

Let me try to help you.
Follow the questionnaire under.

1. Defense.
a) How important self-resilience is for you?
- enough to survive my sworn enemy (0)
- I don't want to have to worry about my health (+1 ASI-CHA)
- I want to taaaaaaaaank! (+1 ASI, + 1 Sentinel, -1 PAM)

b) How important party resilience is to you?
- We are all grown-up, they'll take care of themselves.
- I'll probably keep a Bless or something to help them (-1 PAM).
- I want to take good care of my friends, especially the squishy ones (+2 ASI-CHA).

2. Offense
a) How do you expect to choose enemies (pick only one here)?
- I'll keep my sworn enemy in a duel until he's dead (+1 Sentinel, +1 Warcaster).
- I want to rush through the battlefield (+1 Warcaster for Haste).
- I'll try to aggro several enemies and make them stick to me (+1 Sentinel, +1 Warcaster).

b) How do you expect to deal damage (pick only one here)?
- Number of attacks (+1 PAM and/or +1 Warcaster, +1 ASI-STR)
- Higher damage against my sworn enemy (+2 GWM)
- Higher damage against low-AC enemies (+1 GWM, +2 ASI-STR).

c) How do you think you'll blow slots most often (choose one)?
- Smite SMITE SMITE!!! (+2 PAM, +1 Warcaster).
- Half smite, half concentration spells (+1 Sentinel or PAM, +1 Warcaster or Resilient: CON)
- Smite only when it's absolutely needed, otherwise I'll use buffs (+1 Resilient: CON, +1 ASI-CHA).
- Smite only when it's absolutely needed, otherwise I'll use smite spells/Hunter's Mark (-1 PAM, +1 Warcaster or Resilient: CON).

Make the total, you should get your priorities.
If ASI-CHA gets several points, Half-Elf it is: it's just much better imo to start with a 16 CHA and not bump it for a good while than start Variant Human and struggle after to choose between bumping CHA or doing something else.
Otherwise Variant Human.

Then you can just list the feats by reverse priority. ;=)

A few explications.
- PAM: gives you a permanent bonus action, which is good, but your bonus action may also be used on smite spells and Hunter's Mark. So chances are that benefit is mostly useless to you. Then comes the "OA when entering reach": this is great to inflict damage to one enemy before he can even attack you: but because of that, you great a strong motive to NOT attack you. So if you want to tank, meaning you want to draw enemies to you, it's counter-productive.

- Resilient: CON / Warcaster: great overall to keep whatever spell you are using active. Note that since you'll go two-handed, and by RAI you can drop one hand to cast a spell as long as you can still use both hands to make weapon attacks, the "don't care about somatic" part of Warcaster is of little interest to you. Furthermore, while advantage on concentration saves is good, and the best early on, Resilient: CON will be better for you overall, not only because bonus ends better than advantage, but also because you get much better resisting some nasty effects.
With that said, Warcaster would also allow you to use Command, which can be a good alternative way to keep them near you. ^^
Note that if you plan on using Haste at least one of them is mandatory. You just can't risk ending stunned in the middle of enemies.

- Sentinel is self-explanatory, and good whatever way you go really.


Hope that helps, have fun!

WOW! Amazing Citan! Thank you very much for the help! Im gonna take some time to think about this and decide! :smallbiggrin:

[FoxDropz]

After I did Citan's quiz, my priority was PAM. I could go either way:

- Variant Human> STR16, CHA15, CON13, WIS12, DEX10, INT08
Lv. 1: PAM
Lv. 4: +2 STR or GWM (if somebody on my party can boost my chance of hitting)
Lv. 8: +2 STR or GWM (depending of what I took lvl4)

- Half-Elf> STR16, CHA16, CON14, WIS12, DEX10, INT08
Lv. 1: +2CHA, +1STR, +1COIN
Lv. 4: PAM
Lv. 8: GWM

What do you guys think?

[Blood of Gaea]

*Shrug* It's not how I would build it, but I'd take the Half-Elf build over the Vuman one.

[FoxDropz]

That would work fine, you're basically trading a +2 Cha increase for PAM, which is a fair enough trade. You also lose out on a proficiency, which may or may not matter to you.

Vuman Feat: PAM
Level 4 ASI: +2 Str.
Level 8 ASI: +2 Cha.

Str: 15+1
Dex: 10 or 12.
Con: 14
Int: 8, 10, or 12.
Wis: 8, 10, or 12.
Cha: 13+1

Personally, I would prefer the first build for the higher Cha and extra proficiency, but either will work quite well.

You would go like this right?

[Blood of Gaea]

You would go like this right?
That or:

Half-Elf.
Level 4 ASI: +2 Str.
Level 8 ASI: +2 Cha.

Str: 15+1
Dex: 10 or 12.
Con: 13+1
Int: 8, 10, or 12.
Wis: 8, 10, or 12.
Cha: 14+2

Using a greatsword with GWF.

[FoxDropz]

That or:

Half-Elf.
Level 4 ASI: +2 Str.
Level 8 ASI: +2 Cha.

Str: 15+1
Dex: 10 or 12.
Con: 13+1
Int: 8, 10, or 12.
Wis: 8, 10, or 12.
Cha: 14+2

Using a greatsword with GWF.

I dont know. PAM+Sentinel seems stronger.

[FoxDropz]

I could go:

lvl1: V.Human Bonus PAM

lvl4: GWM

lvl8: STR