Mortalbane and trumping a warlock

[MoogleMcGee]

Hello playgrounders! So here's the deal. I'm wondering how mortalbane works against a warforged target. Mortalbane states it can only be applied to a spell like ability 5 times a day and does 2d6 additional damage to living non outsiders, but half damage to outsiders, undead, and constructs. Which side does a warforged fall on, living or construct because it's a living construct. My second question is how can one go about ruining a warlocks day. My DM is being fairly meta gamey with his BBEG and is making the game a fair bit overwhelming so the warblade and myself (dragonfire adept) are trying to beat this warlock into the ground.

Edit:

do you know anything about the warlock specifically, such as some of his invocations? what level are you guys? are you a party of 2?

We are a party of 2, both level 7, a Human Leaping Shock trooper War blade and me a Dragonfire Adept. We've figured the warlock is a half dragon kobold. So far the BBEG has used eldritch blast, mortalbane, eldritch claws, baleful utterance, and an acid breath weapon. And he's been countering us, mostly, with his minion. And by minions I mean everything talks to. He's not actually hiding, he has attacked us directly 4 times and used his mouth to convince people not to help us or directly attack us. He has somehow convinced people he's a gnome that has been polymorphed into a kobold, and he only told us what he was directly because no one would believe us.

[Venger]

living constructs are not constructs. you can mortalbane them normally.

there's no point trying to beat your gm if he's got it in his head that D&D is a competitive game. he has infinite resources, so will always be able to cheat and kill you. if you have already tried talking to him and telling him to cut it out, it may be time to cut your losses.

[MoogleMcGee]

OK then. One more thing about mortalbane for myself in another campaign, do you lose a use of it if you miss? And I know what you mean, but I've played with this DM a lot. He's the kind of kind that if you can legitimately get around a problem he won't DM fiat his way out, instead he'll congratulate the players on overcoming the challenge.

[Rebel7284]

A bit more information about how the warlock is exploiting your group's weaknesses could be helpful. There are no hard counters to the warlock class a whole outside of the usual "bypass all contingencies and grapple in AMF" sort of thing.

edit: overall the warlock is usually considered a fairly mediocre class due to a very limited toolbox of non-game-breaking abilities.

[Venger]

OK then. One more thing about mortalbane for myself in another campaign, do you lose a use of it if you miss? And I know what you mean, but I've played with this DM a lot. He's the kind of kind that if you can legitimately get around a problem he won't DM fiat his way out, instead he'll congratulate the players on overcoming the challenge.

Yes. Think of mortalbane as a modification of your sla, if you miss with your eldritch blast, then it's wasted.

Sure. You know your gm better than I do, so if you think it's worth it, go for it. good luck and have fun.

do you know anything about the warlock specifically, such as some of his invocations? what level are you guys? are you a party of 2?

[Jormengand]

living constructs are not constructs.

Uhm... yes, they are.

"Warforged are constructs with the living construct subtype."
"A living construct is a new subtype of construct"

[Venger]

Uhm... yes, they are.

"Warforged are constructs with the living construct subtype."
"A living construct is a new subtype of construct"

so do you think mortalbane deals half damage to them?

[Rebel7284]

RAW, I can see an argument for Mortalbane dealing (EB + 2d6) / 2 damage.

[Blu]

RAW, I can see an argument for Mortalbane dealing (EB + 2d6) / 2 damage.
Only the mortalbane damage is halved.

Point being that warforged only have an entry for spells saying they can be affected by spells just as living creatures.
But mortalbane only considers the type, wich warforged are Constructs.
So i believe by RAW mortalbane only deals half damage to them.

[Venger]

Point being that warforged only have an entry for spells saying they can be affected by spells just as living creatures. So i believe by RAW mortalbane only deals half damage to them.

Your statements are at odds with each other. You're saying:
1) warforged are living, so they should take full damage from mortalbane
2) mortalbane deals only half damage to them

Which is it?

EDIT: it's clear now

[Jormengand]

"A mortalbane ability is a damaging spell-like ability that deals 2d6 points of additional damage when used against living nonoutsiders, but only half damage (rounded down) against outsiders, undead, and constructs"

Warforged are living nonoutsiders and are constructs.

The only real dispute here is whether the ability deals X/2 + 2d6 or (X+2d6)/2. I personally favour the latter, based on the order it's written in (2d6 points of additional, but only half damage) but I can see either.

[Venger]

"A mortalbane ability is a damaging spell-like ability that deals 2d6 points of additional damage when used against living nonoutsiders, but only half damage (rounded down) against outsiders, undead, and constructs"

Warforged are living nonoutsiders and are constructs.

The only real dispute here is whether the ability deals X/2 + 2d6 or (X+2d6)/2. I personally favour the latter, based on the order it's written in (2d6 points of additional, but only half damage) but I can see either.

If we go by the example in the text (dangerous, I know: let's pretend night hags aren't immune to cold damage)

Then it's actually just x/2. You don't add in the 2d6 bonus from mortalbane against an outsider, undead, or construct.

[Jormengand]

If we go by the example in the text (dangerous, I know: let's pretend night hags aren't immune to cold damage)

Then it's actually just x/2. You don't add in the 2d6 bonus from mortalbane against an outsider, undead, or construct.

A night hag isn't a living nonoutsider but a warforged is.

[Venger]

A night hag isn't a living nonoutsider but a warforged is.

Huh?

A night hag is an outsider, so takes reduced damage form mortalbane, like a construct does.

The example for how the halving works in the text of mortalbane shows that you halve the damage of the sla and do not add the 2d6 from mortalbane on at all.

[Blu]

Oh my... Just realized that i'm been using it wront on my table since we only halve the 2d6.
By the feat, it adds +2d6 against living nonoutsiders.
Considering spell-like abilitys work like spells and the living construc traits, a warforged is indeed a living creature for the extra damage.
Since he is also a construct, the spell-like ability only deals half damage.
Since there are two things to check for, and warforged fall in one of those i believe it would be:
(EB + 2d6)/2

[Blu]

The example for how the halving works in the text of mortalbane shows that you halve the damage of the sla and do not add the 2d6 from mortalbane on at all.

A night hag is an outsider wich also negates the first condition on mortalbane to aply the bonus damage.

[Venger]

Oh my... Just realized that i'm been using it wront on my table since we only halve the 2d6.
By the feat, it adds +2d6 against living nonoutsiders.
Considering spell-like abilitys work like spells and the living construc traits, a warforged is indeed a living creature for the extra damagem.
Since he is also a construct, the spell-like ability only deals half damage.
Since there are two things to check for, and warforged fall in one of those i believe it would be:
(EB + 2d6)/2

No.

It's not.

For the third time:

If you are targeting an outsider, undead, or construct with a mortalbane sla, you do not add +2d6 from mortalbane. In addition to this, they take only 1/2 the normal damage from your sla.

If you are using a mortalbane eldritch blast against an outsider, undead, or construct, it takes 1/2 damage.

[Jormengand]

Huh?

A night hag is an outsider, so takes reduced damage form mortalbane, like a construct does.

The example for how the halving works in the text of mortalbane shows that you halve the damage of the sla and do not add the 2d6 from mortalbane on at all.

"Living nonoutsiders" take 2d6 extra damage. This includes warforged but not night hags.

Outsiders and constructs take half damage. This includes warforged and night hags.

Night hags take X/2 damage; warforged take (X+2d6)/2 damage or maybe X/2 + 2d6.

[Venger]

"Living nonoutsiders" take 2d6 extra damage. This includes warforged but not night hags.

Outsiders and constructs take half damage. This includes warforged and night hags.

Night hags take X/2 damage; warforged take (X+2d6)/2 damage or maybe X/2 + 2d6.

Now I understand perfectly.

Sorry we were talking past each other for a second there.

Thanks.

I think it would be (X/2) +2d6, since warforged are living nonoutsiders.

[Blu]

Edit:

We are a party of 2, both level 7, a Human Leaping Shock trooper War blade and me a Dragonfire Adept. We've figured the warlock is a half dragon kobold. So far the BBEG has used eldritch blast, mortalbane, eldritch claws, baleful utterance, and an acid breath weapon. And he's been countering us, mostly, with his minion. And by minions I mean everything talks to. He's not actually hiding, he has attacked us directly 4 times and used his mouth to convince people not to help us or directly attack us. He has somehow convinced people he's a gnome that has been polymorphed into a kobold, and he only told us what he was directly because no one would believe us.

Do you guys have any idea on how he is making those diplomancy checks?
Normally making someone going from indifferent to helpful(what would probably be the minimum to attack you guys) takes a DC 30, wich is doable at this level but shouldnt be common.
By your post it seems he is just gaining free canon fodder by just speaking to people witch seems a little fishy.

[Venger]

Do you guys have any idea on how he is making those diplomancy checks?
Normally making someone going from indifferent to helpful(what would probably be the minimum to attack you guys) takes a DC 30, wich is doable at this level but shouldnt be common.
By your post it seems he is just gaining free canon fodder by just speaking to people witch seems a little fishy.

what diplomacy checks?

he's a warlock, I assume he's just using charm, or if he's a boss and is a much higher level than you, possibly devil's whispers.

[Blu]

what diplomacy checks?

he's a warlock, I assume he's just using charm, or if he's a boss and is a much higher level than you, possibly devil's whispers.

Warlock's charm only works on one person at a time.

[BowStreetRunner]

So in the example given in BoVD with the feat an Ice Devil (Gelugon) uses its Spell Like Ability to cast Cone of Cold on a Night Hag which is immune to cold. Instead of dealing 45 damage + 2d6 the spell deals 22 points of damage. :smallconfused: Um....What???


EDIT: See, it's really nice they included an example because that will always make things so much more clear!

[MoogleMcGee]

Thanks everyone for the input. No I don't know how he's getting these people to work for him, but I have until Sunday to think about what to do about it. The warblade will have an easier time beating him 1v1 it seems, I'll just have to do something about my touch AC when it comes to fighting him.

[Venger]

Thanks everyone for the input. No I don't know how he's getting these people to work for him, but I have until Sunday to think about what to do about it. The warblade will have an easier time beating him 1v1 it seems, I'll just have to do something about my touch AC when it comes to fighting him.

Don't bother, it's better to invest in miss chance.

[MoogleMcGee]

Don't bother, it's better to invest in miss chance.

Any suggestions on what to look for? I was already considering an eversmoking bottle if I could get one.

[Venger]

Any suggestions on what to look for? I was already considering an eversmoking bottle if I could get one.

how much spare money do you have? the smoking weapon enhancement is cheaper and better.

[MoogleMcGee]

how much spare money do you have? the smoking weapon enhancement is cheaper and better.

I've got about 7k gold laying around. Not near my sheet so I can't give you specifics.

Edit: forgot about a merchant friend that was from another city. We sent him off and are expecting a return in funds of close to 15k each.

[emeraldstreak]

Any suggestions on what to look for? I was already considering an eversmoking bottle if I could get one.

Eh...miss chance is betting on the flip of a coin. Only do it as last resort.

First line of defense is being untargetable. Concealment may play a role, but as a way to hide your location on the map.

If you are targetable, look for hard counters: immunities, full negates (or at least postpones). After that, look for "up-to-95%" things. For touch AC, Alter Self-ing into high natural AC form, followed by Scintillating Scales, may do it.

Only then you risk a 50-50.

[Blackhawk748]

Its entirely possible he's using Bluff (cuz he seems to be lying about being a Gnome) so just drop a Zone of Truth on him and that will shut that down right away.


Eh...miss chance is betting on the flip of a coin. Only do it as last resort.

First line of defense is being untargetable. Concealment may play a role, but as a way to hide your location on the map.

If you are targetable, look for hard counters: immunities, full negates (or at least postpones). After that, look for "up-to-95%" things. For touch AC, Alter Self-ing into high natural AC form, followed by Scintillating Scales, may do it.

Only then you risk a 50-50.

Full on concealment is hard unless you straight up built for it, Immunity is expensive and Nat Ac doesnt apply to Touch AC. Basically Miss Chance is the only defense that works on virtually everything, which is why you should get it.

[Nifft]

Full on concealment is hard unless you straight up built for it, Immunity is expensive and Nat Ac doesnt apply to Touch AC. Basically Miss Chance is the only defense that works on virtually everything, which is why you should get it.

Yep, it's all about belt-and-suspenders.

You should never let your only defense be a miss chance.

You should always try to have your defense also include a miss chance.

[Crake]

Well, what you could do is make some +1 magebane dragonbane koboldbane (it still has the kobold subtype) arrows. They'll be +7 weapons, and deal an extra 6d6 damage per shot. They'll cost you 646gp per shot if you're buying them though (326gp and 25.6xp per shot if you craft them), but aim that at him and ready to fire whenever he uses an invocation, I'd like to see him pass that concentration check. As a dragonfire adept, you should have 5 bab, hopefully at least 2 or so dex, +7 from the arrows, so +14 to hit, for 1d8+6d6+7 damage, averages about 32 damage per shot, good luck passing that DC42+spell level concentration check. Just... just don't miss, okay?

[emeraldstreak]

Full on concealment is hard unless you straight up built for it, Immunity is expensive and Nat Ac doesnt apply to Touch AC. Basically Miss Chance is the only defense that works on virtually everything, which is why you should get it.

I take it you had hard time reading the words "scintillating" and "scales" in my post.

Eh, but what do I know. I'm only the undefeated champion of a zillion arenas.

[Crake]

I take it you had hard time reading the words "scintillating" and "scales" in my post.

Eh, but what do I know. I'm only the undefeated champion of a zillion arenas.

Scintillating scales turns your natural to deflection though, so if you're using an amulet of natural armor, then at that point you may as well have just bought a ring of protection instead.

[Pleh]

You guys are level 7 and the boss is likely higher level?

He may still have a Maximize SLA card he hasn't played yet. That can be a really nasty combo if he uses it in conjunction with mortalbane.

[emeraldstreak]

Scintillating scales turns your natural to deflection though, so if you're using an amulet of natural armor, then at that point you may as well have just bought a ring of protection instead.

SScales isn't meant to turn your measly +1 amulet into a measly +1 deflection. It's meant to do tricks like turn Dwarven Ancestor's 18 natural armor into 18 deflection. Hence the words "alter" and "self" in my original post.

[Crake]

SScales isn't meant to turn your measly +1 amulet into a measly +1 deflection. It's meant to do tricks like turn Dwarven Ancestor's 18 natural armor into 18 deflection. Hence the words "alter" and "self" in my original post.

How's a warblade and a dragonfire adept gonna get access to alter self? Especially into a dwarven ancestor when neither of them are outsiders?

[emeraldstreak]

How's a warblade and a dragonfire adept gonna get access to alter self? Especially into a dwarven ancestor when neither of them are outsiders?

UMD? Spelltouched feat? All types get monster entries with high NA? They are high enough level to even afford more powerful spells in the line?

Encounters like this boil down to two options: you either resign to be a loser, or make the effort to be a winner.