What makes Arcane Trickster so good?

[ToastyTobasco]

The extremely slow spell progression seems like it it would be a bit of a hindrance and they recharge on a long rest. My more experienced friend says that AT starts off nice but falls to the wayside as things progress. All the Rogue guides I find laud this to be the end-all "So you wanna be Loki, eh? Trick your enemies and knife them, looking damn good the whole way," followed by Swashbuckler's SA triggers and disengage (panache is viewed as either godly or good at least), then a toss up on Thief and Assassin and the remaining REALLY depend on the type of campaign you are in.

Is it the access to a few spells on top of the skill kit of the rogue?
Would a Rogue/Wizard do things better?
Is it more melee/ ranged combat oriented?
Trickster Vs Swashbuckler?
Does the Mage Hand ability add a ton of utility?
Damage spells or all self buffs? (Stats are probably MAD so spell DC probably isnt fantastic)


I can really get behind using spells like mirror image/blurr to confuse and stab someone. (Trickster Cleric's Duplicity is also worth noting but apparently Dex Clerics or Rogue/Cleric is really meh.) Arcane Trickster looks nice on paper but does certain party setups just make them shine, like a low magic party or one full of magic make them look like crap?

[DivisibleByZero]

Is it the access to a few spells on top of the skill kit of the rogue?

This.
The Rogue chassis is already an extremely strong one, as far as base classes go. The added versatility of even minor spellcasting introduces options that no other Rogue subclass has, and can often replicate (at least to some degree) the abilities offered by the other subclasses. This is why it is generally considered the optimal choice for subclass.

It's almost like you get to multiclass 7 levels of Wizard for free without losing any of the Rogue goodies and without having to earn the extra XP it would take.
Think about that for a moment and you'll see why it's rated so highly.

[Nettlekid]

People make a big deal about the glorious potential of having Haste on an Arcane Trickster, ignoring that most campaigns aren't going to get to that level unless they started that high. I think you're absolutely right about the low spell progression rate, and I think you'd be best off imagining that the Arcane Trickster barely gets above having 1st level spells because for a big part of your career you pretty much won't. That's why I'm always leery of people suggesting spells like Shield or Absorb Elements for an Eldritch Knight, because you really don't have the slots to spam them and if your whole shtick is that you use spells in tandem with your class chassis then you need to pick game-changing spells in order to feel that.

An Arcane Trickster is a Rogue first, caster second. You should be using your spells to improve what you want to do as a Rogue, rather than using Rogue talents like your high skills to augment your spellcasting. Spells like Disguise Self, Silent Image, and Charm Person help you out a lot, letting you bypass obstacles that a Thief or Assassin will have to struggle through. Your 2nd level spells are some of the most interesting as Invisibility, Suggestion, Mirror Image, or maybe even something like Levitate give you options that a nonmagical Rogue can't imitate, and that's where you find your niche.

Mage Hand Legerdemain relies a lot on DM interpretation. The first is that in order for it to work Mage Hand has to be active, and that means casting a spell with Verbal components. If you're sneaking around that could blow your cover. Some DMs might allow you to make a Sleight of Hand check to do it quietly, but personally I think that robs the Sorcerer's Subtle Spell of its function. A drawback to magic is that it is very rarely discreet. Once it's up the spell is about as useful as the Thief's Fast Hands, although remember that the hand doesn't move on its own so you'll need to burn actions to move it around and then act. Again, a permissive DM may allow you to both move and manipulate as part of the same Bonus Action.

Personally, looking at the "magical skulker" archtype, I prefer Warlock. A Fiend or Hexblade Warlock can have some pretty potent offensive power with both melee and range, some all-day shenanigan abilities like Disguise Self or Silent Image, utility spells like Invisibility and Darkness and Suggestion, and later on powerful magic like Plane Shift. Alternatively the Bard, especially Whisper Bard, fills the role of a magical skill-user pretty solidly with a wide variety of options to pick from. Truthfully I think the #1 Rogue-ish spell list belongs to the Trickery Cleric, who gets absolute gems from across many different lists (Pass Without Trace, Polymorph, and Modify Memory all stand out to me, but every single Domain spell they get is good) for free on top of their prepared Cleric spells. It's just a shame that their class features are kind of garbage.

[GlenSmash!]

Rogue = Awesome.

Spells = Awesome.

Rogue + Spells === 2*Awesome

QED.

[Temperjoke]

Rogues already have a lot of flexibility, and having some magic fills in some of the weaknesses as well as enhancing some of their strong points.

[MaxWilson]

People make a big deal about the glorious potential of having Haste on an Arcane Trickster, ignoring that most campaigns aren't going to get to that level unless they started that high. I think you're absolutely right about the low spell progression rate, and I think you'd be best off imagining that the Arcane Trickster barely gets above having 1st level spells because for a big part of your career you pretty much won't. That's why I'm always leery of people suggesting spells like Shield or Absorb Elements for an Eldritch Knight, because you really don't have the slots to spam them and if your whole shtick is that you use spells in tandem with your class chassis then you need to pick game-changing spells in order to feel that.

Maybe it's just me, but I feel that not dying when under fire from forty hobgoblins, or when breathed on by two Young Adult White Dragons in the same turn, is kind of game-changing.

You don't have to spam Shield/Absorb Elements for it to be useful. You just have to have it available when it counts. When it doesn't count--when the damage is trivial--I agree, just go ahead and eat the damage.

If you play in a campaign where the damage is always trivial, then obviously you won't care much for life-saving spells like Shield and Absorb Elements.

[Dr. Cliché]

The extremely slow spell progression seems like it it would be a bit of a hindrance and they recharge on a long rest.

Well, you can't really compare them to a full caster. They're still rogues, after all.



Is it the access to a few spells on top of the skill kit of the rogue?

I believe so, yes.



Would a Rogue/Wizard do things better?

Well, bear in mind that a Rogue/Wizard can still be an Arcane Trickster. :smallwink:

As to your question, it depends on what you want to do.



Is it more melee/ ranged combat oriented?

Well, you gain access to Green Flame Blade and Booming Blade, should you want one of those.

Otherwise, it's up to you.


Trickster Vs Swashbuckler?

Are you asking in terms of power or flavour/function?


Does the Mage Hand ability add a ton of utility?

It certainly makes pick-pocketing and disarming traps less risky. Otherwise, it depends what uses you can find for it. :smalltongue:



Damage spells or all self buffs? (Stats are probably MAD so spell DC probably isnt fantastic)

Usually best to look for stuff that doesn't require/rely on saves (Minor Illusion, Sleep, Mirror Image, Invisibility etc.)

However, there are some other spells you could consider:
- As above, Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade (since you can use them with Sneak Attack and then use Cunning Action to withdraw).
- A ranged Cantrip. Not ideal, but can give you a different damage type and a ranged attack that never runs out of ammunition.
- Shadow Blade. Decent weapon spell, albeit for a short time.



I can really get behind using spells like mirror image/blurr to confuse and stab someone. (Trickster Cleric's Duplicity is also worth noting but apparently Dex Clerics or Rogue/Cleric is really meh.) Arcane Trickster looks nice on paper but does certain party setups just make them shine, like a low magic party or one full of magic make them look like crap?

I think the important thing is to think of Arcane Tricksters as rogues with a little casting ability. For the most part, they're still going to play like rogues (so you'll still be using skills and such).

I imagine the main thing will be getting the most usage out of your spells - especially Mage Hand and your other cantrips.

[strangebloke]

Rogue subclasses generally offer very little.

Fighter subclasses generally offer a fair amount.

EK is considered to, along with BM and Cavalier, to be one of the best fighter archetypes.

AT gives pretty much everything that EK does.

Just looking at level three, the AT gets scaling spellcasting, while the thief gets fast hands and the inqusitive rogue gets to sneak attack people who are standing alone. It's very very nice.

[Rixitichil]

Aside: Dex based Cleric of Trickery is a blast!
It is a very different creature to a Rogue, being very much a sneakiness enabler for your group and definitely a spell caster/secondary Frontline/skirmisher in combat rather than a rogues primary skirmisher.
A multiclass of the two probably wants to limit its dip one way or the other, focussing on either getting higher level spells or progressing sneak attack and using Divine magic sparingly, (Guidance is often useful, Pass Without Trace almost singlehandedly enables group stealth and divinations are generally nice to have on a scout.)

[Tanarii]

Rogue = Awesome.

Spells = Awesome.

Rogue + Spells === 2*Awesome

QED.I thought 1 + 1 = 4?


AT gives pretty much everything that EK does.Not really. Abjuration + Evocation + War Magic + Arcane Strike =/= Enchantment + Illusions + M.H. Legerdemain + Magical Ambush. I don't think one is greater than the other. I just think they give significantly different things, which interact with the base class differently.

[ToastyTobasco]

Basically what I want to do as a Rogue is to skirmish, fight side-by-side, assist the party and bring whatever utility I can with my role in and out of combat. Fighting mostly in melee with swords or midline with daggers/darts. Have a longbow as a backup but prefer to not use it

We have a Bard, Ranger, Druid and Wizard. Druid tanks, Wizard blasts, Ranger shoots/flies/melee (bird race), Bard and I are new characters since previous ones died. Playing Hoard of the Dragon Queen

My DM has disallowed Booming Blade/GFB.

Comparison between AT and Swash in terms of utility and combat. I really like the Sneak attack of Swash since it really helps getting Sneak attacks going more often, but at the same time I want to learn different ways to do so. Getting a familiar and spells with Trickster might be a really good idea


I think I'm talking myself into liking AT....


In all honesty this is my second campaign, I've done a good handful of oneshots, I love DnD to absolute death and spend most of my little free time crafting characters or reading lore. I barely have time to play and the rest of my time is eaten by nursing school (which is hell).

My last guy was a Fighter 1/Warlock 2 Fiend Bladelock that I ended up hating more than I thought possible and was thankful when he died. I felt like he brought nothing to the table. I wont ever play a bladelock again unless the character starts at 4 or 5th level. Rogue has a ton of skills, expertise and might actually stay alive

EDIT: Clarifications for easier understanding, my bad

[GlenSmash!]

I really like the Sneak attack of Swash since it eliminates most of the need for getting advantage

You don't need to have advantage to sneak attack. You can just attack a target who is next to one of your party mates.

[ToastyTobasco]

You don't need to have advantage to sneak attack. You can just attack a target who is next to one of your party mates.

Well I know that =/

[GlenSmash!]

Well I know that =/

Oh, well I'm confused by why you said this:


I really like the Sneak attack of Swash since it eliminates most of the need for getting advantage

instead of something like "I really like the Sneak attack of Swash since it eliminates most of the need for getting a party member to stand next to target"

Or a more general "I really like the Sneak attack of Swash since it eliminates one requirement for getting Sneak attack"

The way you worded it really seemed to emphasize the Advantage requirement to Sneak Attack.

[Citan]

The extremely slow spell progression seems like it it would be a bit of a hindrance and they recharge on a long rest. My more experienced friend says that AT starts off nice but falls to the wayside as things progress. All the Rogue guides I find laud this to be the end-all "So you wanna be Loki, eh? Trick your enemies and knife them, looking damn good the whole way," followed by Swashbuckler's SA triggers and disengage (panache is viewed as either godly or good at least), then a toss up on Thief and Assassin and the remaining REALLY depend on the type of campaign you are in.

Is it the access to a few spells on top of the skill kit of the rogue?
Would a Rogue/Wizard do things better?
Is it more melee/ ranged combat oriented?

Arcane Trickster looks nice on paper but does certain party setups just make them shine, like a low magic party or one full of magic make them look like crap?
Hi!

IMO what makes Arcane Trickster great is that his available spell and variety of spellcasting related features allows for a great number of builds.

You'd like to make someone extra stealthy? Silent Image then Invisibility will help with that, and even as a third-caster, you should still have enough fuel most often.

You want to make your Rogue much more foolhard? Shield and Mirror Image should help much achieve that effect without ending dead. ;)

You want to discharge one caster by being the one Holding a humanoid? Bump INT and grab Magical Ambush and you're better than a Wizard. o/

[ToastyTobasco]

Oh, well I'm confused by why you said this:



instead of something like "I really like the Sneak attack of Swash since it eliminates most of the need for getting a party member to stand next to target"

Or a more general "I really like the Sneak attack of Swash since it eliminates one requirement for getting Sneak attack"

The way you worded it really seemed to emphasize the Advantage requirement to Sneak Attack.

Very good points. I will edit for future readers

[SociopathFriend]

I personally was going to make a Prince of Thorns-style character that was an Arcane Trickster and a Battlemaster Fighter.
So basically someone who would take every advantage in combat, including directing and using his allies, to get the job done.

I never got to test it out unfortunately, I couldn't reconcile the group playing time with my animation class.
The idea was to perform annoying acts such as disarming an opponent from stealth and then using the Bonus Action to mage hand their weapon/item to me or dropping a flask of oil/fire on their head to get a surprise kick off of combat.

Really, the Mage Hand abuse is one of the subclass' finer features imo. Given how skill-check-bs Rogues are, you can rather easily steal from someone at a distance with arguably no tell whatsoever that you did so. It's not like most creatures can actually beat a Rogue's Sleight of Hand check (one of the reasons I tend to hate players who pull that crap on me) and you can do so at range and without the hand being visible.

Imagine stealthily walking up to the big bad as a Rogue. You could try to plug him a swift arrow in the backside but he's likely to survive that and then he's going to probably come at you. You don't want to try and manually pick his pocket because if you fail you will be right in his face. But picking his pocket with an invisible hand? From a distance? That seems a lot more fun doesn't it?
The upcoming battle might be much easier if he reaches into his pocket for a wand/potion and finds nothing there.

Or, imagine if you needed to hide from pursuing guards but have no cover? Illusion up a barrel and hide behind it- instant theoretical cover. And so on and so forth. The subclass has potential but I think you have to be inventive in how to pull it off compared to say, most classes where the subclass is just extra damage or standalone abilities.

[Toadkiller]

I have not played one, but I did DM for one for a while. The character was very successful both in and out of combat as there were lots of ways to be useful. Player had fun because they could really let loose with the creatively while having “I stab it really well” as a fall back plan along with “I shoot it very well” too. Player chose variant human with magical initiate as the starting feat so she had some magic from the start. One starting cantrip (as I recall) was booming blade which makes a rogue’s mobility really pay off.

I remember a couple of rounds in particular where she just massacred a set of my enemies and I don’t think ever got touched in return. Had a blast doing it too.

Which is really the bottom line. For the right player they are simply a whole lot of fun. For others, not so much. Makes it nice there are lots of options.

[Willie the Duck]

Basically what I want to do as a Rogue is to skirmish, fight side-by-side, assist the party and bring whatever utility I can with my role in and out of combat. Fighting mostly in melee with swords or midline with daggers/darts. Have a longbow as a backup but prefer to not use it

We have a Bard, Ranger, Druid and Wizard. Druid tanks, Wizard blasts, Ranger shoots/flies/melee (bird race), Bard and I are new characters since previous ones died. Playing Hoard of the Dragon Queen

My DM has disallowed Booming Blade/GFB.

Have you considered a Rogue (Arcane Trickster)/ Fighter (Edritch Knight)? Multi-attack makes up for lack of GFB/BB.

[Arkhios]

Damage spells or all self buffs? (Stats are probably MAD so spell DC probably isnt fantastic)

I wouldn't say AT would be MAD, statwise. As a rogue you have all the ASI you need to be effective as both a rogue and a spellcaster.

As a rogue, what really need is Dexterity for various reasons. As an AT you also need a decent Intelligence. A decent Constitution is just a bonus, not mandatory.

Other than that, you really don't absolutely "need" anything else.

If I would play an AT (and I just might), I would use pointbuy for these:

Str 8, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 15, Wis 10, Cha 8.

Variant human would get Dex 16 and Int 16, and a nice bonus feat, maybe Magic Initiate (Wizard) for one additional 1st-level spell (Mage Armor) and a few cantrips more.

[Citan]

I wouldn't say AT would be MAD, statwise. As a rogue you have all the ASI you need to be effective as both a rogue and a spellcaster.

As a rogue, what really need is Dexterity for various reasons. As an AT you also need a decent Intelligence. A decent Constitution is just a bonus, not mandatory.

Agreed, or rather I'd reformulate to say "Rogue is as MAD as you want it to be".

For an Arcane Trickster, how high your INT is and how high your Stealth is (for Magical Ambush) just affects the choice of spells, but there are enough good non-INT spells to use all slots every day. ;)

With that said, Arcane Trickster 11 paired with any caster for 9 levels (and high casting stat) makes a fearsome opponent. ;)

[ToastyTobasco]

Have you considered a Rogue (Arcane Trickster)/ Fighter (Edritch Knight)? Multi-attack makes up for lack of GFB/BB.

Very briefly, for however far I take AT, (somewhere between 9 and 12?) and our campaign will probably only go to 14-15, I dont think EK would pay out enough. A 3 dip for Battlemaster would really boost damage. 1 Cleric dip would give me armor and a shield (But by the time I did that I would have 4 or 5 dex modifier, so it would be for shield and cleric spells/divinity. Trickery fits like a glove but I hear there are better ones for a dip.


I wouldn't say AT would be MAD, statwise. As a rogue you have all the ASI you need to be effective as both a rogue and a spellcaster.

As a rogue, what really need is Dexterity for various reasons. As an AT you also need a decent Intelligence. A decent Constitution is just a bonus, not mandatory.

Other than that, you really don't absolutely "need" anything else.

If I would play an AT (and I just might), I would use pointbuy for these:

Str 8, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 15, Wis 10, Cha 8.

Variant human would get Dex 16 and Int 16, and a nice bonus feat, maybe Magic Initiate (Wizard) for one additional 1st-level spell (Mage Armor) and a few cantrips more.
I'm going for High Elf to get an extra Cantrip on top of all the other boons as I played characters without Darkvision and we ended up in quite a few caves and sewers. I did not like it. I think it's dumb that humans are basically sitting ducks in the dark, ever work night/graveyard shifts for a long time? You can actually see in the dark pretty well if your eyes are used to it. Even half darkvision would be nice.


Right now I'm thinking Str 8, Dex 16, Con 14, Int13-14, Wis 10-12, Cha 10 or 8. Cant confirm these on a point buy atm. ASI at 4 would probably go +2 Dex as feats can wait until I figure out what I really want to do.

Higher Wis would only be for the eventual Cleric dip if I really wanted. I could dip Wizard for portent rolls or something else to add more versatility, Battlemaster for damage/ riposte. Cleric for proficincies and goodies but Fighter gives the similar goodies minus spells...

[Arkhios]

I'm going for High Elf to get an extra Cantrip on top of all the other boons as I played characters without Darkvision and we ended up in quite a few caves and sewers. I did not like it. I think it's dumb that humans are basically sitting ducks in the dark, ever work night/graveyard shifts for a long time? You can actually see in the dark pretty well if your eyes are used to it. Even half darkvision would be nice.


Right now I'm thinking Str 8, Dex 16, Con 14, Int13-14, Wis 10-12, Cha 10 or 8. Cant confirm these on a point buy atm. ASI at 4 would probably go +2 Dex as feats can wait until I figure out what I really want to do.

Higher Wis would only be for the eventual Cleric dip if I really wanted. I could dip Wizard for portent rolls or something else to add more versatility, Battlemaster for damage/ riposte. Cleric for proficincies and goodies but Fighter gives the similar goodies minus spells...

Perfectly understandable.

...Say, was this for AL, or a homebrew game (I forgot and I'm on mobile)?

If you're interested in a rogue and spellcasting but would much rather be a divine spellcaster, check out my signature for the Inquisitor :smallwink:

[ToastyTobasco]

Perfectly understandable.

...Say, was this for AL, or a homebrew game (I forgot and I'm on mobile)?

If you're interested in a rogue and spellcasting but would much rather be a divine spellcaster, check out my signature for the Inquisitor :smallwink:

Hoard of the Dragon Queen and possibly Rise of Tiamat.

[Contrast]

For me its that it just adds a lot more than the other options in the PHB.

The utility of casting is immense and the changes to mage hand are significant. I'd see myself using them every session, whereas a number of the abilities of the other classes might only be relevant once in a campaign. Fast hands is fun but competes with your bonus action which you're already getting good use out of.

That said, I played one a while ago and played in a game with an illusion/charm focused wizard. There's a lot less utility to being the second person in the party to be able to cast those spells and even when I could have cast them I usually asked the wizard to instead because that was their schtick (plus their DCs were better). In the end I rebuilt the character as a swashbuckler with the magic initiate feat

[Specter]

I'll just take one spell from each level to answer that question:

- Booming Blade: this gives scalable damage, along with a rider effect that benefits your fighting style (hitting and disengaging);
- Find Familiar: advantage on your attacks, advanced scouting and another set of eyes;
- Invisibility: because finding cover to hide is too much effort;
- Fear: unlike other rogues, you can deal with a massive number of enemies at thevsame time;
- Greater Invisibility: no explanation needed.

Now add all the other spells and class features you get, and you are one of the best rogues around the block.

[wallyd2]

Just stopped by to say Mage Hand. My brother, always an old-school D&D Thief at heart, has always loved picking pockets and disarming traps. Mage Hand Legerdemain makes him a master at these skills.

[Tanarii]

The utility of casting is immense and the changes to mage hand are significant. I'd see myself using them every session, whereas a number of the abilities of the other classes might only be relevant once in a campaign. Fast hands is fun but competes with your bonus action which you're already getting good use out of.Fast hands is something I see almost every Thief IMC use almost every combat. The ability to drop caltrops & ballbearings as a bonus action is good enough that it stays competitive with using it to Dash, Dodge, Hide or TWF.
(I also allow Acid & Alchemists Fire with it, but that's rarer because of cost.)

Edit: I am exaggerating slightly. We have a lot of 2 to maybe 3 round Easy wandering monster attacks, so "almost every fight" isn't really accurate. But it's commonly used in fights of any seriousness or length.

[Submortimer]

Adding on top of what's already been said, Shadow Blade from Xanathar's is just too good on arcane tricksters. Being able to Shadow Blade + Booming Blade + Sneak attack in the same round is all kinds of pain.

[Contrast]

Fast hands is something I see almost every Thief IMC use almost every combat. The ability to drop caltrops & ballbearings as a bonus action is good enough that it stays competitive with using it to Dash, Dodge, Hide or TWF.
(I also allow Acid & Alchemists Fire with it, but that's rarer because of cost.)

Edit: I am exaggerating slightly. We have a lot of 2 to maybe 3 round Easy wandering monster attacks, so "almost every fight" isn't really accurate. But it's commonly used in fights of any seriousness or length.

I agree that fast hands is good, which is why I specifically called it out separately.

That said your rogue must be throwing away ball bearings as fast as the local artisans can churn them out :smalltongue:

[TheUser]

Shield, Find Familiar, Sleep are all invaluable even at level 3. Absorb Elements is also great but a lot of these spells are already non illusion/enchantment so finding the right ones can be tricky. (Find familiar for instance, is great until your DM decides to kill the owl).

Blur, Mirror Image (+ sentinel), Shadow Blade, Mysty Step, Hold Person, Web, Invisibility all great.
Once you get magical ambush at 9 your spell arsenal becomes godly. Hold person in particular.

Hypnotic Pattern + Magical Ambush is insane. Haste is all well and good but by level 13 you can have 20 dex and 20 int which means a DC 18 wis save at disadvantage which is extremely hard for most enemies to make (less than 3% if your modifier is +0, 4% if your int is 18).

What ends up happening in later levels is that high level casters can concentrate on only so much. The lower level, high utility spells being something the arcane trickster is able to focus on while being a fully fledged rogue makes for amazing group and personal utility.

[ToastyTobasco]

Shield, Find Familiar, Sleep are all invaluable even at level 3. Absorb Elements is also great but a lot of these spells are already non illusion/enchantment so finding the right ones can be tricky. (Find familiar for instance, is great until your DM decides to kill the owl).

Blur, Mirror Image (+ sentinel), Shadow Blade, Mysty Step, Hold Person, Web, Invisibility all great.
Once you get magical ambush at 9 your spell arsenal becomes godly. Hold person in particular.

Hypnotic Pattern + Magical Ambush is insane. Haste is all well and good but by level 13 you can have 20 dex and 20 int which means a DC 18 wis save at disadvantage which is extremely hard for most enemies to make (less than 3% if your modifier is +0, 4% if your int is 18).

What ends up happening in later levels is that high level casters can concentrate on only so much. The lower level, high utility spells being something the arcane trickster is able to focus on while being a fully fledged rogue makes for amazing group and personal utility.

Find familiar seems like the best choice for low level. I really like the extra attack Sentinel gives if I am fighting alongside my allies but I get a very strong feeling the DM will start focusing me. That and stopping an Orge right next to you as a mildly squishy character just sounds like a problem. Shadow Blade however, could be really handy, sadly it is in the same slot as Invisibility and Mirror Image.

[opaopajr]

You also get to swap out one Spell Known each time as you level up in that Archetype. So it's not all that restrictive. :smallsmile:

Find Familiar is a very strong non-Ench/Illu school spell choice.

However, given your desire to do melee & mid-range with blades I'd recommend looking at Longstrider. Adds 10 to Speed, lasts an hour, no benefit from high Int, no Concentration needed. Given Cunning Action and Sneak Attack, you can help your tanking druid and determine at the moment if you want to TWF attack or Dash/Hide/Disengage away. The extra Speed adds more power projection to your melee presence.

... and it still works great for Exploration. :smallbiggrin:

[DivisibleByZero]

You also get to swap out one Spell Known each time as you level up in that Archetype. So it's not all that restrictive. :smallsmile:

Find Familiar is a very strong non-Ench/Illu school spell choice.

However, given your desire to do melee & mid-range with blades I'd recommend looking at Longstrider.

See, I was going to say, given your desire for melee and mid-range with blades, I'd recommend a Bladesinger 2 or 3 dip.
It gets you better AC for that melee, it gives you the benefits of Longstrider without the slot, and it gives you more spells known which can be from any school.

[Diebo]

I'm playing a small race (kobold) arcane trickster with a decent roll for dexterity (16+2=18) so it has given me some freedom to pick feats instead of attributes.

I picked up ritual caster at 4, which provides tons of utility, such as comprehend languages, find familiar, identify. I took fog cloud as my out-of-class spell and it has saved my bacon.

At 8 I am thinking about Mobile, which basically makes an arcane trickster into a pseudo-Swashbuckler. With either find familiar (ritual), versatile trickster (13th level), or a nearby ally you can meet the requirements for sneak attack.

We've got a grappler in the party, so I was going to take reduce/enlarge at 7th level.

I got to thinking, with reduce, my size small character would turn to tiny. They could run through sized medium and above as if they were difficult terrain. With mobility, if you dash (bonus cunning action), you ignore difficult terrain. This character could run 80' per turn right through a mess of players and stick his dagger into some opponent, getting booming blade plus sneak attack damage, and not have opportunity attacks from the target.

Those kind of shenanigans are possible with an arcane trickster.

[opaopajr]

See, I was going to say, given your desire for melee and mid-range with blades, I'd recommend a Bladesinger 2 or 3 dip.
It gets you better AC for that melee, it gives you the benefits of Longstrider without the slot, and it gives you more spells known which can be from any school.

Eh, it's different. Not better. :smallsmile:

Bladesinger pushes a bit more MAD with DEX & INT. Because Bladesong only lasts a minute, and you get two uses per S/L Rest. That still leaves good DEX useful for an 'always on' AC benefit. And that's just two minutes per hour rest; not so useful versus exploration and surprises therein. Also you cannot combine other tricks, such as racials or multiclassing with Med Armor, Heavy Armor, or Shield.

Longstrider lasts 60 minutes, doesn't care about INT, works with other armor shenanigans, is castable on others (and their armor shenanigans), and still gets Rogue benefits.

A Wizard Bladesinger doesn't replace Rogue Arcane Trickster and vice versa. :smallcool:

[opaopajr]

I'm playing a small race (kobold) arcane trickster with a decent roll for dexterity (16+2=18) so it has given me some freedom to pick feats instead of attributes.

I picked up ritual caster at 4, which provides tons of utility, such as comprehend languages, find familiar, identify. I took fog cloud as my out-of-class spell and it has saved my bacon.

At 8 I am thinking about Mobile, which basically makes an arcane trickster into a pseudo-Swashbuckler. With either find familiar (ritual), versatile trickster (13th level), or a nearby ally you can meet the requirements for sneak attack.

We've got a grappler in the party, so I was going to take reduce/enlarge at 7th level.

I got to thinking, with reduce, my size small character would turn to tiny. They could run through sized medium and above as if they were difficult terrain. With mobility, if you dash (bonus cunning action), you ignore difficult terrain. This character could run 80' per turn right through a mess of players and stick his dagger into some opponent, getting booming blade plus sneak attack damage, and not have opportunity attacks from the target.

Those kind of shenanigans are possible with an arcane trickster.

Ritual Caster is a fun choice, especially with Illusion school. Disguise Self with Magic Mouth (R), Comprehend Languages (R), Illusory Script (R), or Unseen Servant (R) are all strong in a high Social & Exploration campaign. But people tend to ignore those columns for the Combat column.

I also like how you show how a PC adapts to Actual Play. Party tactics often develop from experience and reading each other's personalities. Switching out Spells Known becomes important in adapting to your party and campaign. AT are still not Wizard-level spell flexibility, yet still retains Rogue-features repeatability.

[ToastyTobasco]

I think Divination could be a really interesting MC and might really add to the trickery kit since it comes out just on 2 levels.Just gotta figure out where to squeeze it in there.

Bladesinger looks okay but for any kind of dip, I think Fighter would serve better for upping consistent AC and damage. All I would need with Fighter would be 3 levels to serious pump damage and combat options. Bladesinger's abilities are limited to two/rest, but with later levels and high stats, would probably be good spikes in power. Hm....that needs some number crunching actually...

Also I'm just outright confused how to interpret a AT/Wiz multiclass' spell slots number

[Specter]

I think Divination could be a really interesting MC and might really add to the trickery kit since it comes out just on 2 levels. Bladesinger looks okay but for any kind of dip, I think Fighter would serve better for upping AC and damage. All I would need with Fighter would be 3 levels to serious pump damage and combat options.

Also I'm just outright confused how to interpret a AT/Wiz multiclass' spell slots number

- Both multiclasses work, but for different purposes.
Wizard is supposed to give you slots/spells first, and everything else later. Just by getting your hands on all the spells you leave behind like Fog Cloud, Misty Step, Fireball, etc., Wizard is worth it. The school features depend on what you want to do (when in doubt, Bladesinger).
Fighter effectively stalls your slot progression (unless Eldritch Knight), but gives you more damage/AC.

- (AT levels / 3) + Wizard levels = your caster level (rounded down).
So an AT5/Wiz10 would be an 11th level caster (1.66 + 10 = 11); and an AT9/Wiz3 would have the slots of a 6th level caster (3 + 3).

[GorogIrongut]

I think Divination could be a really interesting MC and might really add to the trickery kit since it comes out just on 2 levels.Just gotta figure out where to squeeze it in there.

I've got a level 10 Stout Halfling with 2 levels in Divination and 8 in Arcane Trickster. Combine that with the two feats: Bountiful Luck and Lucky... and my character is not only ridiculously lucky... but everyone in my party loves it when he's around. Because the luck goes exploding in all directions, for everybody's benefit. Being 'lucky' also works quite synergistically with the already strong underlying Rogue chassis.

He's based off of the character Arcie from the book Villains by Necessity. Which makes him even more welcome at a table because he's not all about the stabby and more to do with the funny.

[Asmotherion]

For Starters:
Expertese and Mage Hand Legerdemain. On the same person. This can mean a lot of things you can pull, as long as you're creative enough. Includes (but is not limited to) stealing, putting a harmfull thing in someone's pocket that will activate on a command, putting a discriminating document (works wonders if you're proficient with the forgery kit) in someone's belongings, removing the weapons and spellcasting focci from opponents before the battle begins, tie your target's shoes together... If you add Minor Illusion and Prestidigitation to your arsenal, what the Wizard calls "Spells" you call "Spell-Enhanced skill tricks". If avalable, Booming Blade/Greenflame Blade Damage stacks with your Sneak Attack.

Then, supported by:
Illusion, and Enchantment spells. Mirror Image is Amazing to make people not hit you (and with your Dex, they already rarelly do so). Blur enhances this even more. Shadow Blade is an Illusion Spell, and Stacks both with Sneak Attack and Booming Blade.

Overall, the class is amazingly well self supported, and probably the best Rogue Archetype. The only thing that I find can be as effective is the Swashbuckler.

[ToastyTobasco]

I've got a level 10 Stout Halfling with 2 levels in Divination and 8 in Arcane Trickster. Combine that with the two feats: Bountiful Luck and Lucky... and my character is not only ridiculously lucky... but everyone in my party loves it when he's around. Because the luck goes exploding in all directions, for everybody's benefit. Being 'lucky' also works quite synergistically with the already strong underlying Rogue chassis.

He's based off of the character Arcie from the book Villains by Necessity. Which makes him even more welcome at a table because he's not all about the stabby and more to do with the funny.

I just might make a similar character in the future, that sounds fantastic

[Klorox]

I've got a level 10 Stout Halfling with 2 levels in Divination and 8 in Arcane Trickster. Combine that with the two feats: Bountiful Luck and Lucky... and my character is not only ridiculously lucky... but everyone in my party loves it when he's around. Because the luck goes exploding in all directions, for everybody's benefit. Being 'lucky' also works quite synergistically with the already strong underlying Rogue chassis.

He's based off of the character Arcie from the book Villains by Necessity. Which makes him even more welcome at a table because he's not all about the stabby and more to do with the funny.

What a fun combo! I’d love to imitate it someday! Heck, maybe even add a little wild magic if you have the stats for it.

I’m currently playing an arcane trickster and loving it. I haven’t played a rogue yet in 5e and I’m still learning the ropes, but the character is so versatile and fun.

[Willie the Duck]

It's a thread necro.

[Keravath]

Just one quick clarification,

Mage Hand Legerdemain actually allows control and movement of the mage hand as a bonus action. This makes it much more user friendly than the usual mage hand.

"In addition, you can use the bonus action granted by your Cunning Action to control the hand."

At 13th level, the mage hand provides another way to obtain advantage against a target (Advantage is critical for rogues since it helps ensure that the 1/turn sneak attack lands - as well as enabling it - but advantage is very important to making the most of it).

---------

However, the basic answer to what makes an arcane trickster so good is versatility. Spells provide a wide range of additional options to deal with situations that the other rogue archetypes might have more difficulty with.

[djreynolds]

What do you want out of your spells?

Do they allow you to focus your skills elsewhere?

Do they enhance your skill selection?

Tasha's hideous laughter, hold person, charm person.. each of these spells can take out an enemy of commission

Illusion spells are great blur, mirror image, invisibility

Levitate and spider climb are two 2nd level spells you can choose that say "goodbye" athletics checks, but how often do you need these spells at 7th level, your casters might already have these available and they can fly at 5th level

You get a cantrip from any school, so you can still blast away with firebolt

I think the question is, do you want to drop fireballs and stuff, because that is really far off, level 13?

Rogue's can dish out damage, you have to decide how much your are willing to invest in your intelligence to make your enchantment spells worth it later on.

If not, than focus on illusion spells that help in combat

Good luck