UA Artificer OP?

[bc56]

I read through the artificer UA again recently, and I can't help thinking it's a bit overpowered, especially the gunsmith. You get a Large CR2 beast companion, 3 extra attunements, a ranged weapon comparable to a longbow that does 2d6 damage, free magic items, AND spellcasting.

Am I missing something? What do you think?
I would especially appreciate advice from DMs and players of artificers.

[Sigreid]

UA is often a kitchen sink where they test all the features. I wouldn't allow it in my campaign. I'm sure others would.

An option would be to allow it for a mid level 1 shot to drive it around the block and kick the tires. After all, at your table it only matters what you think of it.

[Aett_Thorn]

1) Yes, you get the pet, but it is static in terms of abilities, so will scale very poorly. By RAW, it doesn't even seem like it can be healed.

2) 3 extra atunements will depend greatly on what items you even come across. Some may be taken up by the creations you make as well, many of which are useful, but not uber-powerful.

3) The weapon also takes a bonus action to reload, meaning that you can only ever get one shot off. Yes, you can do a decent amount of damage with it, but if you miss, that's your turn.

4) The magic items, as mentioned above, are pretty much just flavor items, and are great for certain aspects of the game, but not others. They're overall pretty balanced.

5) Spellcasting is good, but their spell list leaves a LOT to be desired, and they're only 1/3rd casters.

Overall, I'd say that they're pretty well balanced, and from a "has interesting things to do in combat" perspective, it actually has a lot to be desired, I feel. Each turn in combat is usually the same thing.

[Jerrykhor]

They are not that good. Spellcasting is poo, magic items are gimmick/non-combat, extra attunement slots are nice but still up to DM/campaign, no extra attack, gun is super loud, will guarantee to piss off the stealth guys in your team by drawing the entire enemy (not a rule, but most DMs would rule that), all of their features beyond Thunder Monger deal low damage. Only Mechanical Servant is good, but it doesn't scale beyond CR2.

Honestly, the whole UA is disappointing, Alchemist being the worst offender.

[Vykryl]

I play a gunsmith and I do more outside of combat than in. Your playing a thief with detect magic and identify as rituals wielding a noisy weapon. Think I'm actually running this modification to the USA

[5e] UA Artificer Revised, and Mechanist Specialty (x-post from/r/DnD) - UnearthedArcana https://www.reddit.com/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/5phy6s/5e_ua_artificer_revised_and_mechanist_specialty

I find it fun to play. Not using a musket but some goofy crossbow I've mishmashed from fantasy pics and real concepts, fires magic bolts.

[CIDE]

This is the first time I've seen anyone think the Artificer was OP. Every other thread/discussion I found on the matter previously all came to the conclusion that they were too weak with everyone desiring some sort of homebrew fix to make them more balanced.

[ImproperJustice]

A long time ago, there was a GM expressing frustration at the Alchemist’s ability to melt everything (max damag to objects at will).

Beside that though, the majority opinion is that it is underpowered.

I’m firmly in the camp that the class is fine as is, but we run an exploration / puzzle heavy game and my Alchemist has a small arsenal of wands in addition to a few common items and his own personal items.

[Mortis_Elrod]

I think it’s one of the most balanced UAs to have come out. But there’s a lot to improve and if anything it’s leaning towards underpowered than overpowered.

Biggest issue I have is probably the spellcasting. Half casting and a better spell list (also prepared casting ) would be preferable. Or better yet a new prepared Pact Magic equivalent casting. Either that or an easier way to make wands or staffs or anything really useful to make up for 1/3 casting. The items you make are all decent at best and some of it you’ll hand over to the party,

Giving them ritual casting would have been good too.

[Matticusrex]

lmao UA artificer is more underpowerd than base ranger. Most players beg their dms to buff it or let them switch classes because it stinks. Dont let your players play this class.

[Aett_Thorn]

lmao UA artificer is more underpowerd than base ranger. Most players beg their dms to buff it or let them switch classes because it stinks. Dont let your players play this class.

Disagree with your final statement there. Listen, this class isn't going to win any "best in show" awards anytime soon, but it is still fun. It just really needs to be streamlined before final release. It is still totally playable, but you have to take it with a grain of salt and know that it's not going to be the best at anything.

[Kyrinthic]

I agree, never really understood why people try to imply they are under powered even. They really get everything.

Proficiencies get them medium armor, 3 skills and 3 tools, and expertise with all tools. They aren't quite a rogue at skill use, but they really are the second best thing. With int as a primary stat, they are likely to be as good as a rogue that picked expertise in investigate and thieves tools. Overall a solid utility character to start with, and better armor out the gate than other utility characters have access to, and not-dying is a good thing. Even better with new tool use options in Xanthars.

You get 5 free magic items of choice. Many of the magic item choices are staples of adventure, nothing game breaking, but being sure you can get goggles of the night or a haversack is really great, and open up character creation options a bit. Wand of secrets at 5 means you continue to be at least as good as a rogue in a dungeon. Many of these items are attunement free as well. The kind of handy utility stuff that other characters wish they could afford to expend resources to have, he gets for free.

You get 3 free attunements. Anyone who has played high level adventures understands that this is probably the single strongest ability the class gets. At the highest levels, the attunement limit is a significant limit to power creep, as very rare and legendary magic items are pretty much all stronger than most class abilities. Really I cannot overstate how powerful it is to have twice as many magic items attuned as anyone else.

You get a CR 2 pet at a level equal to what a shapeshifting focused druid gains access to CR2 forms, but yours can fly while he still cant. This doesnt scale later on, which is a damper, but a CR2 is a strong companion well into the teens, and wont just blow up in the first AOE. At the level you get it, it is not far from having another party member.

You get spellcasting. Its a slow progression at 1/3rd level, so one is intially inclined to feel its weak. Then you realize they cherry-picked the wizard and cleric lists for a best of compilation of spells available. Then they let you infuse them into items so the whole party can carry the concentration. Want to give your monk haste? Hand it to him, or give it to the ranger to cast on the other melee, whatever. Hand over the revivify item to the most survivable member of the party, in case you die. Their spell list combined with infuse magic makes their casting feel at least as relevant as the casting on a ranger or paladin.

For no particular reason, they get their final ASI a level early. Its not like they made room for some ability at 19. But thats really not that big of a deal.

Oh and the capstone also gives +6 to all saves, which is pretty slick too. Better than a most when you consider the 6th attunment is here as well, but not the best capstone in the game probably. It certainly isnt lacking anyhow.

Then you pick the archetype.

1. pick gunsmith to have damage on par with a rogue of equal level. You have to burn a bonus action to reload, so you lost the mobility of the rogue, but you don't need someone to key sneak attack off of, and you have the best weapon range in the game. Its about a wash. Considering that rogues are generally considered a high damage class, this is no small thing. And you get some interesting unlimited use aoe and cc type options, though they are not overly strong at least.

2. Pick alchemist to have huge healing, on par with a top level cure wounds spell by an equal level cleric, once per short rest on each member of the party. And a ranged attack only slightly weaker than the gunsmith in damage (but much much shorter range). Also gets significant utility options for combat as well. Great all around combat options here.

I honestly never understood why anyone would see them as underpowered, they really dont lack in any category.

[bc56]

I agree, never really understood why people try to imply they are under powered even. They really get everything.

Proficiencies get them medium armor, 3 skills and 3 tools, and expertise with all tools. They aren't quite a rogue at skill use, but they really are the second best thing. With int as a primary stat, they are likely to be as good as a rogue that picked expertise in investigate and thieves tools. Overall a solid utility character to start with, and better armor out the gate than other utility characters have access to, and not-dying is a good thing. Even better with new tool use options in Xanthars.

You get 5 free magic items of choice. Many of the magic item choices are staples of adventure, nothing game breaking, but being sure you can get goggles of the night or a haversack is really great, and open up character creation options a bit. Wand of secrets at 5 means you continue to be at least as good as a rogue in a dungeon. Many of these items are attunement free as well. The kind of handy utility stuff that other characters wish they could afford to expend resources to have, he gets for free.

You get 3 free attunements. Anyone who has played high level adventures understands that this is probably the single strongest ability the class gets. At the highest levels, the attunement limit is a significant limit to power creep, as very rare and legendary magic items are pretty much all stronger than most class abilities. Really I cannot overstate how powerful it is to have twice as many magic items attuned as anyone else.

You get a CR 2 pet at a level equal to what a shapeshifting focused druid gains access to CR2 forms, but yours can fly while he still cant. This doesnt scale later on, which is a damper, but a CR2 is a strong companion well into the teens, and wont just blow up in the first AOE. At the level you get it, it is not far from having another party member.

You get spellcasting. Its a slow progression at 1/3rd level, so one is intially inclined to feel its weak. Then you realize they cherry-picked the wizard and cleric lists for a best of compilation of spells available. Then they let you infuse them into items so the whole party can carry the concentration. Want to give your monk haste? Hand it to him, or give it to the ranger to cast on the other melee, whatever. Hand over the revivify item to the most survivable member of the party, in case you die. Their spell list combined with infuse magic makes their casting feel at least as relevant as the casting on a ranger or paladin.

For no particular reason, they get their final ASI a level early. Its not like they made room for some ability at 19. But thats really not that big of a deal.

Oh and the capstone also gives +6 to all saves, which is pretty slick too. Better than a most when you consider the 6th attunment is here as well, but not the best capstone in the game probably. It certainly isnt lacking anyhow.

Then you pick the archetype.

1. pick gunsmith to have damage on par with a rogue of equal level. You have to burn a bonus action to reload, so you lost the mobility of the rogue, but you don't need someone to key sneak attack off of, and you have the best weapon range in the game. Its about a wash. Considering that rogues are generally considered a high damage class, this is no small thing. And you get some interesting unlimited use aoe and cc type options, though they are not overly strong at least.

2. Pick alchemist to have huge healing, on par with a top level cure wounds spell by an equal level cleric, once per short rest on each member of the party. And a ranged attack only slightly weaker than the gunsmith in damage (but much much shorter range). Also gets significant utility options for combat as well. Great all around combat options here.

I honestly never understood why anyone would see them as underpowered, they really dont lack in any category.

This is pretty much what I was thinking when I made the thread.
Thieves tools proficiency seems weird. I'd give them Tinker's tools or Alchemist tools instead.

[NomGarret]

I’m among those who like the overall balance point, but would like some shifting around before final release. The pet is cool, but the lack of scaling really sticks you to utility uses later on. I’d probably scale the base pet down a tic and move a bigger, scaling one into its own subclass. That would give more breathing room to move up the alternate gunsmith blasts to lower levels. I’d also remove the limits on alchemist creations. You shouldn’t be locked into acid and fire for two of your first three choices.

[Aett_Thorn]

I’m among those who like the overall balance point, but would like some shifting around before final release. The pet is cool, but the lack of scaling really sticks you to utility uses later on. I’d probably scale the base pet down a tic and move a bigger, scaling one into its own subclass. That would give more breathing room to move up the alternate gunsmith blasts to lower levels. I’d also remove the limits on alchemist creations. You shouldn’t be locked into acid and fire for two of your first three choices.

Yeah, I wouldn't mind if the base class just got a more familiar-like mechanical friend, and then there was a subclass focused on a bigger, scale-able pet (like the BM ranger, but you'd have to make it different enough from that subclass to make it unique). I feel like the pet as part of the base class is really screwing with the balance points when it comes to the subclasses.

As for the Alchemist: they need something besides new options at the various subclass levels. BM fighters, for instance, get additional option choices in addition to gaining new choices of maneuvers when they level up. Alchemists should be able to choose new options, and also get some other stuff as they level up. Currently, alchemists just get closer and closer together as they level up, as at level 20, they will all end up having all of the options.

Alchemists, in my opinion, also need to either get more option choices or all of the current options need to scale in some way. A 5' radius difficult terrain just doesn't tend to cut it at high levels.

Gunsmiths get penalized in strength for being able to use all of their options at-will. I'd almost rather have a limited number of uses for some of their later abilities if it made it so that they were actually worth using.

[trctelles]

TL;DR: No, UA Artificer is not OP. He might be decent in a high magic campaign where you can attune to 6 magic items, but overall, he's really meh.

The homebrew version is WAY better (IMO) than the UA version. Personaly, I don't like the Alchemist one on either version, but the Mechanist and the Gunsmith work better. The Mechanist now have a Servant that scale, and you can customize it as you wish. The gunsmith get some customization too, but they don't get the Servant as in the UA (which is fine by me).

I think the Gunsmith SHOULD get the extra attack feature at lvl 6 along with the Weapon Tinkering, so that the Integrated and Extended Magazine would make more sense to get. I know the Thunder Monger work similar to the Extra attack in terms of damage, and come up earlier than the extra attack, but I don't see the reason behind extending the magazine if you can't attack more in your turn. It opens up to cast bonus action spells, but your spell list is not that impressive to begin with so... Yeah, I think the WoTC should work more in the Artificer, and take notes based on the homebrew version, because, as much as I find the class to be cool, you have 0 reason to pick this over something else.

[Kyrinthic]

heh, just read the homebrew artificer, its scary, dandwiki level power.
Well written though, quality presentation and editing.

heh, as a short list,

so many bonuses to magic item crafting that anyone else doing it is just silly.
alchemist subclass gets 25' aoe stun attacks with disadvantage 5 times/short rest, and maximized 80 point heals.
gunsmith gets advantage on every attack from 250', or ability to not spend bonus actions reloading in a fight.
new mechanist brings a full extra party member to the table, for all intents.

But at least the base class doesnt get the pet feature?

[bc56]

TL;DR: No, UA Artificer is not OP. He might be decent in a high magic campaign where you can attune to 6 magic items, but overall, he's really meh.

The homebrew version is WAY better (IMO) than the UA version. Personaly, I don't like the Alchemist one on either version, but the Mechanist and the Gunsmith work better. The Mechanist now have a Servant that scale, and you can customize it as you wish. The gunsmith get some customization too, but they don't get the Servant as in the UA (which is fine by me).

I think the Gunsmith SHOULD get the extra attack feature at lvl 6 along with the Weapon Tinkering, so that the Integrated and Extended Magazine would make more sense to get. I know the Thunder Monger work similar to the Extra attack in terms of damage, and come up earlier than the extra attack, but I don't see the reason behind extending the magazine if you can't attack more in your turn. It opens up to cast bonus action spells, but your spell list is not that impressive to begin with so... Yeah, I think the WoTC should work more in the Artificer, and take notes based on the homebrew version, because, as much as I find the class to be cool, you have 0 reason to pick this over something else.


heh, just read the homebrew artificer, its scary, dandwiki level power.
Well written though, quality presentation and editing.

heh, as a short list,

so many bonuses to magic item crafting that anyone else doing it is just silly.
alchemist subclass gets 25' aoe stun attacks with disadvantage 5 times/short rest, and maximized 80 point heals.
gunsmith gets advantage on every attack from 250', or ability to not spend bonus actions reloading in a fight.
new mechanist brings a full extra party member to the table, for all intents.

But at least the base class doesnt get the pet feature?

I would rather hear critique of the UA version. I don't plan to ever use the homebrew someone posted here.

[Foxhound438]

It's really a big concoction of little issues.

you get 1/3 casting like an arcane trickster or eldritch knight, which is honestly fine in its own right, but unlike the EK or AT, the levels at which the artificer gets spell levels up you don't actually get any other class feature. Getting second level spells clearly isn't strong enough on either of the other 1/3 casters at 7th level, so they both get pretty powerful features on top. Artificer is stuck saying "look guys, it's that spell the other guy's been casting every round for 4 levels now", which isn't great. Of course the complaint of "that spell but way later" isn't necessarily fair, since you're comparing a class that's designed more like a rogue in what it gets than like a wizard, but that just brings us back to the question of "where's my feature?"

Their damage is on par or worse than a rogue at any level. And no, rogue isn't really that impressive on damage- you get to be ahead in the first 4 levels (assuming no one took polearm master or great weapon master), but after that the progression just doesn't keep up, capping out at swinging something like 43 damage in a hit... Sounds big, but when you remember that that's comparing to a 20th level fighter swinging a polearm 9 times for around 180 damage in total, right before the sorcerer drops a pile of meteors on everything for another 160 or so after all his features, an arteficier isn't impressive- it's acceptable at best. You could argue "but that's throwing resources in", but the arteficier (and rogue) don't have any resources to speak of, and the fighter in particular is still doing something like 100 all day.

The post-1st subclass features are pretty disappointing on both. Alchemist gets a little mileage early on, picking up the best options out of the short list of choices available, but after getting the one or two things you like outside of the damage/healing options, the rest of your subclass features are pretty much niche junk. Gunsmith somehow gets it even worse, with their 3rd level feature being the damage scaling that's built into the alchemist's attacks (at least he starts with more), and after that it's lightyears behind curve AOE options. Yes, they're free and infinite ammo and whatnot, but spending your action to do 2d6 damage at 9th level is pathetic, even if you somehow manage to hit 9 targets. (a 1st level burning hands would be more damage and would actually do something even if they make the save). The later options don't get better.

BUT

all of that isn't even the worst of it. The absolute worst part of the whole class: the 11th level feature


-

Actual nothing. at a level that's defined by the game's own rules as a power spike level.

I've omitted a couple of paragraphs on things that I think are bad or only just passable because this got pretty long, but I guess the takeaway is that the remainder of the features are only good enough if the other issues are fixed. It's fine to have ribbons here and poor scaling beast companions there, since other classes have similar levels that are forgiveable based on what else it has to offer. I will say that I do like the arteficier, and think it has a good identity and role even in its flawed state, and I would even play one, and I would even have fun doing so... but the class isn't strong.

[Matticusrex]

I would rather hear critique of the UA version. I don't plan to ever use the homebrew someone posted here.

The UA basically is a bad homebrew. While it has a lot of little things, they dont add up to much, basically red mage with all the awful stereotypes that come with it..

[trctelles]

1/3 casters only work if the main class is strong (Like Fighter and Rogue), and the Artificer is not strong to just be a 1/3 caster. They should either buff the fighting part or the casting part...

UA Artificer: looks cool, but is weak. Other classes do the same but better

[Kyrinthic]

It's really a big concoction of little issues.

you get 1/3 casting like an arcane trickster or eldritch knight, which is honestly fine in its own right, but unlike the EK or AT, the levels at which the artificer gets spell levels up you don't actually get any other class feature. Getting second level spells clearly isn't strong enough on either of the other 1/3 casters at 7th level, so they both get pretty powerful features on top. Artificer is stuck saying "look guys, it's that spell the other guy's been casting every round for 4 levels now", which isn't great. Of course the complaint of "that spell but way later" isn't necessarily fair, since you're comparing a class that's designed more like a rogue in what it gets than like a wizard, but that just brings us back to the question of "where's my feature?"

Their damage is on par or worse than a rogue at any level. And no, rogue isn't really that impressive on damage- you get to be ahead in the first 4 levels (assuming no one took polearm master or great weapon master), but after that the progression just doesn't keep up, capping out at swinging something like 43 damage in a hit... Sounds big, but when you remember that that's comparing to a 20th level fighter swinging a polearm 9 times for around 180 damage in total, right before the sorcerer drops a pile of meteors on everything for another 160 or so after all his features, an arteficier isn't impressive- it's acceptable at best. You could argue "but that's throwing resources in", but the arteficier (and rogue) don't have any resources to speak of, and the fighter in particular is still doing something like 100 all day.

The post-1st subclass features are pretty disappointing on both. Alchemist gets a little mileage early on, picking up the best options out of the short list of choices available, but after getting the one or two things you like outside of the damage/healing options, the rest of your subclass features are pretty much niche junk. Gunsmith somehow gets it even worse, with their 3rd level feature being the damage scaling that's built into the alchemist's attacks (at least he starts with more), and after that it's lightyears behind curve AOE options. Yes, they're free and infinite ammo and whatnot, but spending your action to do 2d6 damage at 9th level is pathetic, even if you somehow manage to hit 9 targets. (a 1st level burning hands would be more damage and would actually do something even if they make the save). The later options don't get better.

BUT

all of that isn't even the worst of it. The absolute worst part of the whole class: the 11th level feature



Actual nothing. at a level that's defined by the game's own rules as a power spike level.

I've omitted a couple of paragraphs on things that I think are bad or only just passable because this got pretty long, but I guess the takeaway is that the remainder of the features are only good enough if the other issues are fixed. It's fine to have ribbons here and poor scaling beast companions there, since other classes have similar levels that are forgiveable based on what else it has to offer. I will say that I do like the arteficier, and think it has a good identity and role even in its flawed state, and I would even play one, and I would even have fun doing so... but the class isn't strong.

They do have some odd breakpoints as far as where they get their abilities, a lacking level 11 does feel weird, usually only full casters get nothing there. But then usually only full casters get archtypes at level 1. I still feel their third casting feels more like half casting due to the great list of spells and the infusion ability to do things like hand a blur to the fighter, compared to like the EK that cant even use most schools of spells. But its definitely more of a support caster than a main casting type character.

Rogue damage is actually pretty solid, on par with most classes at least. Fighters do exceptional raw melee damage, that is sort of their thing. And even then, they arent getting 4 attacks till their capstone. Its literally the only thing they do is hit things, and for levels 11-19 they arent really that far ahead outside of their action surge.

I still feel that people don't really get what sort of power those extra attunements give. On every high level character I've played, number of attunements is a huge limiting factor, with each attunment representing a major ability I had to pick between. Do I wear the ring of invisibility or the ring of spellstoring on my rogue kind of significant choices, and thats after ensuring the rod of alertness is attuned. The artificer gets to say 'why not both, and these two other things also'. Sure it is limited by what magic items come up, but in most games, that is a huge thing.

And hey, the only class that can actually consider using a hammer of thunderbolts without feeling bad ;)

[Aett_Thorn]

Going to try to address some of these more point-by-point


Proficiencies get them medium armor, 3 skills and 3 tools, and expertise with all tools. They aren't quite a rogue at skill use, but they really are the second best thing. With int as a primary stat, they are likely to be as good as a rogue that picked expertise in investigate and thieves tools. Overall a solid utility character to start with, and better armor out the gate than other utility characters have access to, and not-dying is a good thing. Even better with new tool use options in Xanthars.

The Armor and skills are great, but even with Xanathar's, I don't think that tool proficiencies are all that great, nor do they come into play all that often. I mean, being proficient in calligraphers' tools is great when you might need to forge something, but otherwise its a non-factor. Even things like smith's tools don't come up all that often. Having expertise in something that doesn't come up often doesn't help all that much. 0 x 2 is still 0.



You get 5 free magic items of choice. Many of the magic item choices are staples of adventure, nothing game breaking, but being sure you can get goggles of the night or a haversack is really great, and open up character creation options a bit. Wand of secrets at 5 means you continue to be at least as good as a rogue in a dungeon. Many of these items are attunement free as well. The kind of handy utility stuff that other characters wish they could afford to expend resources to have, he gets for free.

My main problem with this is their list. Certainly, getting five free items by level 20 is great, but most of these items are pathetically weak by the time you get them. Others are just flavorful (which is perfect), and others have charges. If you pick an item that has charges, and you run out, you're out a class feature. The rules don't say that you can make a new one, so now you're out. This means that most smart players will pick from an even smaller list. Add to this that items could be lost or stolen, and it means that you could be out of a class feature. No other class has anything similar.



You get 3 free attunements. Anyone who has played high level adventures understands that this is probably the single strongest ability the class gets. At the highest levels, the attunement limit is a significant limit to power creep, as very rare and legendary magic items are pretty much all stronger than most class abilities. Really I cannot overstate how powerful it is to have twice as many magic items attuned as anyone else.

This is indeed great, if you can find good items to use it with. By end-game, when you might be coming across a lot of these powerful items, this can be very worth it. But it's very campaign-dependent. Potentially powerful, and one of the better features of the class, for sure. I'm just saying that it's not OP depending.


You get a CR 2 pet at a level equal to what a shapeshifting focused druid gains access to CR2 forms, but yours can fly while he still cant. This doesnt scale later on, which is a damper, but a CR2 is a strong companion well into the teens, and wont just blow up in the first AOE. At the level you get it, it is not far from having another party member.

A free companion, especially at the level you get it for the strength that it is, is fantastic. Add the ability to have a flying mount at this level, and it's even better (although having a Giant Eagle-mech in a dungeon might get a bit tricky). However, since it's a construct, you can't heal it with spells, meaning that it's probably going to die fairly often later on, and the only way to get it back is to fix it once it's totally broken. Really powerful at the level you get it, and only gets worse from there. That's not a great feature.


You get spellcasting. Its a slow progression at 1/3rd level, so one is intially inclined to feel its weak. Then you realize they cherry-picked the wizard and cleric lists for a best of compilation of spells available. Then they let you infuse them into items so the whole party can carry the concentration. Want to give your monk haste? Hand it to him, or give it to the ranger to cast on the other melee, whatever. Hand over the revivify item to the most survivable member of the party, in case you die. Their spell list combined with infuse magic makes their casting feel at least as relevant as the casting on a ranger or paladin.

Sure, they get a couple of good/great spells. But most of their spell list is far from what I would call "best of compilation". Spells known vs prepared is also an issue for this class. Giving spells to others is great, especially when they'll be responsible for the concentration, but you basically need to know what you want to cast ahead of time, meaning that this feature will likely be, in effect, limited to a few "good" spells, and the rest will be forgotten.



For no particular reason, they get their final ASI a level early. Its not like they made room for some ability at 19. But thats really not that big of a deal.

This is probably just a typo, more than anything.


Oh and the capstone also gives +6 to all saves, which is pretty slick too. Better than a most when you consider the 6th attunment is here as well, but not the best capstone in the game probably. It certainly isnt lacking anyhow.

This IS a great feature. However, as many people don't play their characters all the way to that level, most people won't really factor it in. It is FANTASTIC. But won't often be seen.

[Grog Logs]

I posted a similar thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?544325-Rogue%92s-Sneak-Attack-vs-Warlock%92s-Eldritch-Blast-vs-UA-Gunsmith-Artificer) about concerns of the Gunsmith subclass being too strong. You can see some of my math in that thread; but, in short, the Gunsmith is effectively a re-skinning of the Arcane Trickster with a Crossbow. Their damage is exactly the same (not including critical hits or feats for the AT), but they use their magical abilities and skills differently.

The Mechanical Servant does put the Gunsmith ahead of the damage curve by about 22 points when you first get it. So, it starts off strong damage wise but never upgrades. I was uncomfortable with this, so I made the following modifications for a Player at my table.

Mechanical Servant:

Remove these two sentences:
• The servant is a construct that obeys your commands without hesitation and functions in combat to protect you.
• In combat, it rolls its own initiative and acts on its own.

Add these paragraphs:
• The servant is a construct that obeys your commands to the best of your ability. But, no matter how hard you work to fix it, there continues to be imperfections in the magical energy and mechanical hardware of the servant. The servant’s ability to attack is “buggy.”
• In combat, the servant takes its turn during your initiative. On your turn you can verbally command the servant where to move (no action required of you). You can use your action to verbally command it to take the Dash, Disengage, Dodge, or Help action. The servant cannot take the Attack action; but you have noticed that it sometimes attacks your enemies when you are attacked.
• You may ride the servant as a mount during and outside of combat, but you must use both hands to steady yourself while it is moving to avoid falling off.

Clarification and Justification: The Mechanical Servant puts the (Gunsmith) Artificer noticeably above the damage curve. However, the class lacks many defensive capabilities, I’m allowing it to defend you in times of trouble. That is, the last bullet point under “Mechanical Servant” in the UA still works.

[samcifer]

I played one during last weekend's one-shot campaign session and have mixed feelings. I played a lv. 7 variant human cowboy lost in time and took weaponsmaster for another +1 DEX as well as to gain access to short swords (a re-skinned machete) and whips for flavor. For the wonderous items, I took Goggles of Night to compensate for a lack of darkvision as well as a rope of climbing the dm ruled I could use as a lasso. I put him in scale mail for a decent ac and reskinned a Winchester rifle to be his thunder cannon. For the construct, I re-skinned a sabre-tooth tiger into a direwolf with claws and named him Lupo.

He was fun to rp (I kept his accent subtle), but in battle, I quickly began to grow bored with having only 1 way each to attack with him and due to nervousness about the construct being damaged, was reluctant to use him in battle until the final boss battle. When he hit with the gun, he hit well, but I rapidly wished that he had cantrips for more ways to attack and at lv. 7, he lacked any form of AoE attack. I decided that if I play him again, I'll start as an artificer, then mc into wizard for some variety.

The spells for artificers are all support-oriented and there are no real damaging spells. It's an okay class if you want to play a ranged weapon-user with a bit of utility, but I don't see it as overpowered. In fact, I personally find the class rather limiting on its own, but that's only because I prefer more jack-of-all-trades (as far as spellcasting goes) kinds of characters.

[Rogerdodger557]

Looking over the artificer again due to this thread, I realized a few things things about it that I didn't like, that I hadn't considered before.


I already didn't like that they were 1/3 casters. I would make them 1/2, or my more radical change down below.
The lack of a level 7 feature. I hadn't noticed it before, but it's disgraceful. I have some ideas on how to fix this, mainly moving a subclass feature back.
The lack of a level 11 feature. While the idea isn't great, I would grant Ritual Casting.
The lack of a level 13 feature. IMO, this should be an upgrade to the Mechanical Servant. This would help with survivability at later levels, when it would be needed.


However, I think my biggest gripe is that Artificers just know their spells. The biggest change I would make is that Artificer's would be able to prepare spells at dawn, from a spellbook, like a wizard. It just makes sense in my head, and IMO, would help with a lot of the issues I(and maybe others) have with the class.


Edit: I would also update the spell list. Because why wouldn't an artificer have Tiny Servant on there?

[samcifer]

Looking over the artificer again due to this thread, I realized a few things things about it that I didn't like, that I hadn't considered before.


I already didn't like that they were 1/3 casters. I would make them 1/2, or my more radical change down below.
The lack of a level 7 feature. I hadn't noticed it before, but it's disgraceful. I have some ideas on how to fix this, mainly moving a subclass feature back.
The lack of a level 11 feature. While the idea isn't great, I would grant Ritual Casting.
The lack of a level 13 feature. IMO, this should be an upgrade to the Mechanical Servant. This would help with survivability at later levels, when it would be needed.


However, I think my biggest gripe is that Artificers just know their spells. The biggest change I would make is that Artificer's would be able to prepare spells at dawn, from a spellbook, like a wizard. It just makes sense in my head, and IMO, would help with a lot of the issues I(and maybe others) have with the class.

At lv. 7 the Thunder Blast becomes 3d6, so you're doing Dex mod + 5d6 damage, which isn't bad, but yeah, the spellcasting progression and spell list suck for artificers. 1/2 casting would be better and maybe add in a small AoE effect or two, like Burning Hands and Shatter.

[Foxhound438]

At lv. 7 the Thunder Blast becomes 3d6, so you're doing Dex mod + 5d6 damage, which isn't bad, but yeah, the spellcasting progression and spell list suck for artificers. 1/2 casting would be better and maybe add in a small AoE effect or two, like Burning Hands and Shatter.

problem with that is that rogues get a spell level, a d6 of progression, and still also a feature, so the arteficier is once again left saying "where's my feature"

[samcifer]

problem with that is that rogues get a spell level, a d6 of progression, and still also a feature, so the arteficier is once again left saying "where's my feature"

I'd like it if they got the ability to create a limited, but renewable (say 3 per long rest) grenades or firebombs that could be thrown and create an AoE damaging effect to give them another option for attacking. In my groups normal homebrew campaign, we recently fought a trio of bosses and one, upon being killed, turned into a slowly enlarging swarm of bugs. If I hadn't still had a lv. 3 spell slot and the fireball spell, we would've ended up overwhelmed by the bugs.

[MeeposFire]

I like the artificer a lot but I agree it has flaws that really need to be fixed and I made sure I sent them a list when I gave them feedback.

I did suggest making them 1/2 casters as it fits other base caster classes and gives them the ability to cast animate objects which feels right. I made sure that they had some crafting based abilities and their minor magic items were kept but essentially only they could use them and if they were taken, destroyed, or lost they could recreate them with enough time and maybe a small amount of cash.

I also gave them access to rituals and cantrips though the cantrips were of the type that made sense. In some cases I put in that some spells work slightly differently such as when using find familiar from the class they create one that looks built rather than a true animal or certain cantrips require some items to work. Attack cantrips were included but were mostly for future artificers that may not have an offesnive based archetype and so could use those cantrips as their basic attack.

I also made changes to alchemy so that it had a melee option (lightning blade is what I used), suggested making one of the fire or acid to be a spell ranged attack role rather than both being save based. I also suggested some higher level affects for some common options to make non-damaging ones better.

I also suggested some abilities to ensure there were no dead levels.


I like the concept but I wanted some changes.

[Foxhound438]

I'd like it if they got the ability to create a limited, but renewable (say 3 per long rest) grenades or firebombs that could be thrown and create an AoE damaging effect to give them another option for attacking. In my groups normal homebrew campaign, we recently fought a trio of bosses and one, upon being killed, turned into a slowly enlarging swarm of bugs. If I hadn't still had a lv. 3 spell slot and the fireball spell, we would've ended up overwhelmed by the bugs.

There's certainly ways they could help that, and I suspect that the actual best way is to have the existing bad AOE effects have a "boost damage with spell slots" option basically ripped straight from the sun soul monk's kamehameha. Something like "This effect can be enhanced with magic by expending a spell slot. The damage increases by 2d6 per level of the slot, and creatures that succeed their save take half damage instead."