Bone Knight Prerequisites

[SnugUndies]

I was hoping to play a fightin' man-type cleric, oriented towards buffing himself and getting into the thick of things. I know there are more straightforward ways of going about that (Radiant Servant of Pelor, Ruby Knight Vindicator, et al.) but I love the flavour and (most of the) abilities of the Bone Knight! Losing a caster level is a bummer, but that just puts you in line with spontaneous casters and they seem to do fine for themselves.

Only problem is qualifying. Builds I see online assume a straight cleric entry will lead to Cleric 6/Bone Knight 10, what with the BAB requirement. The thing is, to qualify as a Bone Knight you also need 6 ranks in Ride, something a cleric won't be able to achieve until level 9. Besides, buying cross-class ranks is a pain when you have 2 skill points and aren't Int-based. Is there an easy way for me to get Ride as a class skill without blowing a feat for the privilege? I don't want to dip a class purely for the skill points, knowing full well my prestige class of choice will cost me another level of casting beyond that.

[Elkad]

Oriental Adventures has clan skills for humans.
Dragon 334 has regional skills for humans.
Both have Ride as an option.

And "ask your DM" is a valid choice. If a Cleric wanted to trade Diplomacy for Ride, I'd allow it.

[Zaq]

Are there any domains that turn Ride into a Cleric class skill? I know that several domains add skill options, but I forget if Ride is one of them.

I can’t recall offhand any races that turn Ride into a class skill.

Maybe you could dip into a low-prereq PrC that advances casting but has different class skills? Does Ruathar grant Ride? If it’s not obvious yet, I’m on mobile and I don’t have my books open.

[BowStreetRunner]

There are a number of Alternative ways to get new Class skills (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?451088-Alternative-ways-to-get-new-Class-skills) but I'm not sure if any of them will suffice for your purposes. Check out the link though, you never know if one might be perfect for you.

[Troacctid]

Lupins from Dragon Compendium have Ride as a class skill. You could also dip into a prestige class that offers it, such as Dragon Slayer, Wearer of Purple, Windwalker, Tainted Spellcaster, Infused Spellcaster, or Seeker of the Misty Isle.

[SnugUndies]

There are a number of Alternative ways to get new Class skills (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?451088-Alternative-ways-to-get-new-Class-skills) but I'm not sure if any of them will suffice for your purposes. Check out the link though, you never know if one might be perfect for you.

Yeah, I tried researching sneaky ways to go about that beforehand, but couldn't seem to find anything independently.


Maybe you could dip into a low-prereq PrC that advances casting but has different class skills?

I was thinking a similar thing, but the problem is finding a prestige class without a feat tax - because in that case I might as well just take the Versatile feat, ha ha.

I got an idea but it's a wacky one. It includes the fact that my DM usually permits retraining, but I wanted to know if this is kosher as part of a thought exercise.

-Take Versatile at level 1, making Ride a class skill and having six ranks by level three.
-Qualify for Bone Knight at level 7, after which I take six more ranks in Ride.
-Retrain the original six ranks I had into something more useful, taking me from twelve back down to six.
-Since I have the six ranks needed to qualify for Bone Knight, I don't have an illegal character. But since I no longer have any skills provided by the Versatile feat, I can retrain it into something useful (like, say, Persistent Spell.)

Does this make sense? I mean it's circuitous enough that it's just entering "if your DM permits it, he'll probably just let you know Ride for free" territory. But I wonder if this kind of build trickery might have application for characters elsewise.

[lylsyly]

Take a level of Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) as your 3rd character level, dump 6 of those 8 skill points into ride and you are done.

[Selene Sparks]

It requires DM cooperation, but the Apprentice feat explicitly states that the GM can make more mentor types.

Alternatively, you can cross-class a bit to get into the Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin) at level 5, take two levels of it for Divine Grace, and then enter as normal. The loss of two caster levels would hurt, but you'd still be a cleric.

Note, if you do this you'd want to trade turning for the destroying undead option from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, or the incarnum one, or another that can be used to fuel divine feats so you'd have two turning pools.

[Elkad]

Note, if you do this you'd want to trade turning for the destroying undead option from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, or the incarnum one, or another that can be used to fuel divine feats so you'd have two turning pools.

Which is a high PO to low TO reading of Turning. Don't expect that at every table.

At my table, gaining turn/destroy for a new creature type expands the valid targets of your Turning feature, and combines the effective class levels for turning any of them. It doesn't grant another pool.

[Thurbane]

There are a number of Alternative ways to get new Class skills (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?451088-Alternative-ways-to-get-new-Class-skills) but I'm not sure if any of them will suffice for your purposes. Check out the link though, you never know if one might be perfect for you.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?491181) is the most recent iteration of the thread.

[Selene Sparks]

Which is a high PO to low TO reading of Turning. Don't expect that at every table.It is absolutely not TO, which is something with a specific meaning that is not "optimization beyond the level with which I am comfortable." But beyond that, I genuinely cannot see another reading(Although it is worth pointing out I was in error regarding the Azurin cleric substitution level, which only allows qualification for divine feats). The Lightbringer Cleric specifically both does not turn undead but explicitly qualifies for PrCs as if it does and Paladin has no exception for not actually turning.

At my table, gaining turn/destroy for a new creature type expands the valid targets of your Turning feature, and combines the effective class levels for turning any of them. It doesn't grant another pool.This is a perfectly fine houserule. It's balanced, weakens clerics without being arbitrary or unfair, it's all good, and if it's what you and your table prefer, it's totally what you should do and have fun with. But it's not what's in the book.

[zergling.exe]

I was thinking a similar thing, but the problem is finding a prestige class without a feat tax - because in that case I might as well just take the Versatile feat, ha ha.

I got an idea but it's a wacky one. It includes the fact that my DM usually permits retraining, but I wanted to know if this is kosher as part of a thought exercise.

-Take Versatile at level 1, making Ride a class skill and having six ranks by level three.
-Qualify for Bone Knight at level 7, after which I take six more ranks in Ride.
-Retrain the original six ranks I had into something more useful, taking me from twelve back down to six.
-Since I have the six ranks needed to qualify for Bone Knight, I don't have an illegal character. But since I no longer have any skills provided by the Versatile feat, I can retrain it into something useful (like, say, Persistent Spell.)

Does this make sense? I mean it's circuitous enough that it's just entering "if your DM permits it, he'll probably just let you know Ride for free" territory. But I wonder if this kind of build trickery might have application for characters elsewise.

You can't retrain a level 1 feat into a feat you did not qualify for at level 1. Unless you have Extended Spell as a 1st level feat (from say being a human) you cannot retrain Versatile from 1st level to Persistent Spell from 1st level.

[Elkad]

But it's not what's in the book.

Saying you get multiple separate pools isn't in the book either to my knowledge.

Both are interpretations.

[Troacctid]

I was thinking a similar thing, but the problem is finding a prestige class without a feat tax - because in that case I might as well just take the Versatile feat, ha ha.
I'm not familiar with the Versatile feat, but Tainted Spellcaster (Dragon #302), Moon Drover (Dragon #307), Infused Spellcaster (Dragon #321), and Seeker of the Misty Isle (Complete Divine) all have Ride as a class skill, advance casting at level 1, and do not require any feats.


I got an idea but it's a wacky one. It includes the fact that my DM usually permits retraining, but I wanted to know if this is kosher as part of a thought exercise.

-Take Versatile at level 1, making Ride a class skill and having six ranks by level three.
-Qualify for Bone Knight at level 7, after which I take six more ranks in Ride.
-Retrain the original six ranks I had into something more useful, taking me from twelve back down to six.
-Since I have the six ranks needed to qualify for Bone Knight, I don't have an illegal character. But since I no longer have any skills provided by the Versatile feat, I can retrain it into something useful (like, say, Persistent Spell.)

Does this make sense? I mean it's circuitous enough that it's just entering "if your DM permits it, he'll probably just let you know Ride for free" territory. But I wonder if this kind of build trickery might have application for characters elsewise.
You've got some extra steps in there—you don't actually need to retrain the skill ranks first. You can get your 6 ranks in Ride, retrain the feat that gave it to you as a class skill, and bam, done. The world doesn't explode or anything. According to the book:

After your character goes through the retraining or rebuilding process, you might notice that he doesn’t quite match the specs of a similar character built up to the same level by the normal method. Maybe his skill points don’t add up quite right, or his hit points are off a bit from the expected value. But the small variations that crop up in this process don’t significantly impact play balance, and writing rules to eliminate them would complicate the process without really improving the quality of your game.

[Rebel7284]

Consider Prestige Paladin dip if allowed.

Need 4 ranks of ride to enter and a feat, but you also gain paladin spell access, which is really nice for a melee cleric.

Cleric 5/Prestige Paladin 1/Bone Knight

Locks you into LG, unless your DM is okay with Prestige Paladin of Freedom or such.

Edit: just realized that due to +4BAB requirement on Prestige Paladin, my suggested entry doesn't actually work.

[Selene Sparks]

Saying you get multiple separate pools isn't in the book either to my knowledge.It most certainly is. Prestige Paladin explicitly gives you a turning pool. Lightbringer Cleric gives you a pool that is explicitly not turning but can be used to fuel divine feats and qualify for things that require turning. Neither say anything about fusing, losing them if you gain or have the other, or anything like that.

Again, what you proposed is a perfectly fine houserule, and if it improves your game, you should totally use it and I wish you the best. But it is, in fact, not what the rules say.

OP: If you can use Dragon Magazine and are okay with being chaotic, the feat Flexible Mind can give you two skills as class skills. It also makes you radiate chaos like a cleric, but you're a cleric anyways so it doesn't matter too much.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'm a big fan of splashing crusader into melee builds, and crusader 1/cleric 4/prestige paladin 1/bone knight X works well (the lost caster level is unfortunate, but you can compensate if you play an illumian). Also fun to add Ordained Champion and Prestige Paladin 2-3, or maybe Knight of the Raven (generally with clerics, I don't mind losing a few levels of spellcasting if I can get awesome class features in return).

You can also go cleric 6/prestige paladin 1--it costs you a feat and delays Bone Knight, but prestige paladin does not lose casting at the first level.


N.B. Church Inquisitor 1-3 can easily replace cleric 4-6 in any build; the question is whether you have the skill ranks and fluff requirements. If you don't use fractional base attack, instead replace cleric 5-6 with CI 1-2. +4 on dispel checks is really useful.

[SnugUndies]

It requires DM cooperation, but the Apprentice feat explicitly states that the GM can make more mentor types.

Alternatively, you can cross-class a bit to get into the Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin) at level 5, take two levels of it for Divine Grace, and then enter as normal. The loss of two caster levels would hurt, but you'd still be a cleric.

Losing the caster level certainly would hurt! Divine Grace is certainly tempting, especially on a character built to be so immensely resilient... but then at higher levels all of the Bone Knight resistances and immunities should make saves at least somewhat less vital. Something to consider, I dunno.

You did get me thinking, though. Prestige Paladin has Ride as a class skill and grants casting at level 1, so I could get into that with 4 cross-class ranks and then immediately pick up the other 2 ranks as class skills. Entering Bone Knight at level 8 instead of 7 wouldn't be the end of the world either, since that way I'm not delaying getting divine power by a level, which I imagine melee clerics are largely reliant on. The fact that it requires Mounted Combat kind of undoes my side-stepping a feat tax, though.


You can't retrain a level 1 feat into a feat you did not qualify for at level 1. Unless you have Extended Spell as a 1st level feat (from say being a human) you cannot retrain Versatile from 1st level to Persistent Spell from 1st level.

Yeah, I didn't spell it out explicitly, but the idea (in this hypothetical example) would be to play as a human with Extend Spell and Versatile at level 1, then later swap out Versatile into Persistent Spell since you technically could have had it all along. After all, it's one of those feats you can qualify for right away but won't need until the late levels.


I'm not familiar with the Versatile feat, but Tainted Spellcaster (Dragon #302), Moon Drover (Dragon #307), Infused Spellcaster (Dragon #321), and Seeker of the Misty Isle (Complete Divine) all have Ride as a class skill, advance casting at level 1, and do not require any feats.

Versatile is from Rokugan Campaign Setting and lets you pick two skills to always count as class skills. Not a great use of a feat, but it was the quick-and-dirty solution I was hoping this thread would help me otherwise avoid. Your suggested prestige class list is quite helpful, though! Maybe I'll see which is the most dip-friendly. Thank you!



You've got some extra steps in there—you don't actually need to retrain the skill ranks first.

Well that's just wonderful, honestly. I guess it makes sense, too, considering the whole world of retraining is an "officially-recognized house rule." Good to know!


Consider Prestige Paladin dip if allowed.

Need 4 ranks of ride to enter and a feat, but you also gain paladin spell access, which is really nice for a melee cleric.

You're sure the Prestige Paladin gives one access to Paladin spells? From what I'm reading, it just advances your existing spellcasting.


I'm a big fan of splashing crusader into melee builds, and crusader 1/cleric 4/prestige paladin 1/bone knight X works well (the lost caster level is unfortunate, but you can compensate if you play an illumian). Also fun to add Ordained Champion and Prestige Paladin 2-3, or maybe Knight of the Raven (generally with clerics, I don't mind losing a few levels of spellcasting if I can get awesome class features in return).

You can also go cleric 6/prestige paladin 1--it costs you a feat and delays Bone Knight, but prestige paladin does not lose casting at the first level.


N.B. Church Inquisitor 1-3 can easily replace cleric 4-6 in any build; the question is whether you have the skill ranks and fluff requirements. If you don't use fractional base attack, instead replace cleric 5-6 with CI 1-2. +4 on dispel checks is really useful.

You're right about Church Inquisitor, that should be easy to shoehorn in. I'm sure plenty of Clerics would qualify for it by mistake, and it's pure upside. After all, if I'm looking into a character with plentiful defenses, wouldn't hurt to layer immunity to charms on top of that, eh?

I do like Crusaders as well, but if I took a Crusader dip I feel like I might as well go Ruby Knight Vinidicator in that case. I'd be more likely to take Ordained Champion for the raw damage-y goodness, but I'd rather hold onto all the spellcasting levels I can for the time being. I understand builds that aim to get level 9 spells by level 20, since having access to them is far more important than 'how often.' But the campaigns I've played never get to the high levels, so missing spellcasting levels is more likely a matter of missing out on spell levels entirely rather than delaying access to them. I'll probably have a pretty poor character if I put all of my eggs into the skull-bashing basket but never get divine power or the like!

[Thurbane]

You're sure the Prestige Paladin gives one access to Paladin spells? From what I'm reading, it just advances your existing spellcasting.

DM's discretion:


Unique Spells
The bard, paladin, and ranger spell lists contain a number of spells that don't appear on other classes' spell lists. In general, any character who enters one of these prestige classes should gain access to spells unique to that class's spell list, at the same levels indicated for the standard class. At the game master's discretion, spells unique to that class's spell list found in other books may also be available, but on a case by case basis. The game master may require such spells to be researched or learned specifically by the character, rather than simply making them freely available.