AvatarVecna
2018-03-20, 02:46 PM
So, generally speaking, I tend to think the Master Spy is fantastic for the kind of character who's more focused around social infiltration than direct combat. It's obviously better for NPCs that don't have to play with a party as often, but for bards, rogues, sorcerers, and mesmerists that like slipping into alternate identities, it seems like a godsend.
...that being said, I have found myself in an interesting scenario where a good number of the abilities it gives me are...superfluous. The exact scenario: I'm putting together a character for a sort-of "underground resistance" kind of game starting at lvl 10 or so, specializing in undetected infiltration and information gathering. Obviously super-useful to this kind of game, and Master Spy has a lot of neat toys. But! As it happens, the build I've ended up migrating into is a Kitsune Mesmerist//U.Rogue (Phantom Thief) with the Realistic Likeness feat. So, I'm going through the Master Spy (intending to take it starting after U.Rogue 5), and I'm...a bit disappointed at just how much of it I already have, to the point that I don't think I actually wanna take it - even though it's perfect by the fluff, I could get the same effects elsewhere...mostly. And that "mostly" is why I made this thread: I would appreciate assistance in tracking down ways to replicate (or at least ape well enough) the abilities I'm currently missing from Master Spy that I actually want.
A master spy adds her class level to all Bluff, Disguise, and Sense Motive checks.
Mesmerist is adding half-level to Bluff, Realistic Likeness is adding +10 to most of my disguise checks, and Phantom Thief is adding half-level to all three, and to one more/2 lvls beyond 5th if I take it further (which, if I drop Master Spy, I will), so overall straight Mesmerist//UR (PT) is looking to do this better. The only one that's slightly losing out is Sense Motive, where I'm getting half-level instead of level added, but the additional skill benefits from Phantom Thief make up for that plenty.
A master spy can create a disguise in half the time normally required. In addition, any penalties from assuming a disguise of a different gender, race, age, or size are reduced by 1.
Starting at 4th level, a master spy can assume a disguise in only 2d4 rounds by taking a –10 penalty on her Disguise check. This penalty drops to –5 at 8th level.
Short and simple: Kitsune+Realistic Likeness+Phantom Thief U.Disguise is already miles ahead of these.
This ability is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage dealt increases by +1d6 at every third level (1st, 4th, 7th, and 10th). If a master spy gets a sneak attack bonus from another source, the bonuses on damage stack.
This one is solved by virtue of "I didn't want this ability, which is why I got rid of it on my Rogue side". I'm fine not getting it here either.
A master spy of 2nd level or higher can deceive truth-detecting magic. A creature using this sort of magic against the spy must succeed on a caster level check against a DC of 15 + the master spy’s class level to succeed (as if she were under the effect of a glibness spell); failure means the magic doesn’t detect the spy’s lies or force her to speak only the truth. This ability does not give the master spy the glibness spell’s bonus on Bluff checks.
At lvl 10 (the starting point for this game), the Glibness spell will cover this when I need it, as will Phantom Thief granting me early access to Unchained Bluff 15 (albeit at a lower DC). At lvl 11 (next level), I will gain this all-day ability with an even better DC than if I was a Master Spy. The sole usefulness of the Master Spy version is maybe if multiple glib lie effects are allowed to stack, but I'm thinking that's probably an edge case.
At 3rd level, a master spy can use magic aura twice per day, but only for the purposes of making an object appear nonmagical.
Magic Aura is on the Mesmerist spell list if I want it (which I'm not entirely sure I do), and I could also pick it up via Rogue Talents pretty easily (especially since the Phantom Thief is particularly friendly with the magic talents).
At 5th level, a master spy can befuddle divinations used against her as if she were under the effect of a nondetection spell with a caster level equal to her character level. She can suppress or resume this protection as a standard action. If dispelled, the spy cannot resume the nondetection for 1d4 rounds.
Nondetection is on the Mesmerist spell list. I'm sure there's a Rogue Talent that could cover it, too.
At 5th level, a master spy can slip away from mental control. This functions as the rogue advanced talent of the same name. If the spy has the slippery mind ability from another class, these abilities stack, but she can still only use slippery mind once per round.
Only thing I'm losing by giving this up is the potential to stack it with another class...which I wasn't gonna be able to do for awhile anyway because I got into this from Rogue 5 and Rogue is where I would've gotten this from.
t 8th level, a master spy learns the art of killing or paralyzing a foe with a careful strike. This ability functions as the assassin’s death attack ability. If the master spy has levels in another class that grants the death attack ability, these levels stack with her master spy level to determine the DC of her death attack, even if she has not yet reached 8th level as a master spy.
Neither wanted nor needed, just like Sneak Attack.
A master spy of 2nd level or higher can alter her alignment aura to deceive spells that discern alignment (such as detect evil). She may choose to detect as any specific alignment, or to detect as no alignment at all. This ability does not protect against spells or effects that cause harm based on alignment. Masking her alignment aura is a standard action, and lasts until she changes it again or ends the effect.
Alright, so while Bluff doesn't have an epic "fake an alignment" option like in 3.5, it does have the Unchained 15 "Creatures magically attempting to read your thoughts, detect your alignment, or reveal when you are lying must attempt a caster level check (DC = 11 + your ranks in Bluff ) or the effect reveals nothing." That all being said, Mask Alignment lets me fake an alignment I don't have, rather than just returning "Error: No Alignment Found", and I'd like the "fake an alignment" option. If there's a way for Mesmerist or Rogue to do that via spells, talents, feats, or items, please let me know. I suspect Mesmerist will have something for this, purely due to class theme, but I've yet to find it.
A master spy gives the appearance of knowing more than she actually does. Starting at 3rd level, she can make untrained Knowledge and Profession checks pertaining to her cover or assumed identity as if she were trained and gains a bonus equal to half her level on these checks. For example, a master spy masquerading as a noblewoman can make untrained Knowledge (history) checks about the kingdom and Knowledge (nobility) checks about its noble and royal families as if she were trained, but she cannot make untrained Knowledge (nature) skill checks to identify herbs.
The U.Rogue talent "Esoteric Knowledge" will let me attempt knowledge checks untrained just in general rather than specifically pertaining to a disguise, but won't do the same for Profession checks (and won't give me a half-level bonus). Additionally, we are playing with background skills, which can take some slight bit of pressure off (a single rank in 20 background knowledges/professions will be a +4 to each of them, but there's other uses for background skills). If you know of a mesmerist spell/trick, rogue talent, feat, or item that could assist with this, I would appreciate it, since even with a build like this I'm too strapped for skill points to really throw them at knowledges/professions even with background skills in play, and I'd like to potentially do other things with the background skills besides.
A 4th-level master spy can conceal her schemes from mind-reading magic. When a creature is using detect thoughts or similar magic to read her mind, she decides what surface thoughts her opponent detects, and her true surface thoughts remain private. This ability does not protect against mental attacks or mind-reading that delves deeper than surface thoughts.
As previously discussed, Unchained Bluff 15 will be available at lvl 10, and will cover the "they don't see the real thing" part of this, but does not cover the "fake something else in its place" part, which I'd like to do. I have a sneaking suspicion that there is a Rogue Talent somewhere that does this, and there's definitely a mesmerist trick/spell that does this, but I've yet to find them. If I could get some assistance in this search, it would be appreciated.
Here, we're getting into abilities that I wouldn't have yet even if I took Master Spy, so I don't need a way to start the game with these abilities, but I would like a way to pick them up within 5 levels.
Starting at 6th level, a master spy’s control over her aura improves. When she assumes a false alignment, she can choose to have all spells and magic items affect her as though she were that alignment; this includes helpful and harmful effects. For example, a neutral good master spy can shift her aura to lawful evil so she can pass through a doorway that shocks creatures that aren’t lawful evil; if hit by holy smite with this shifted aura, she takes damage as if she were evil. A master spy can change her alignment aura from a masked alignment (as per her 2nd-level class feature, where effects still function based on her actual alignment) to a shifted alignment (as per this ability, where effects function based on her assumed alignment) as a standard action. Shifting her alignment aura is a standard action, and lasts until she changes it again or ends the effect.
...I assume there's a mesmerist spell that will actually let me change my alignment on a whim for the purposes of effects that affect me based on alignment, but I haven't found one yet. The closest I've found to this is a DC 30 UMD check (10 ranks, Cha-focused build, half-level bonus...shouldn't be difficult) will let me count as an alignment for the purposes of using magic items, but I don't think that would prevent a holy sword from hurting me if I was actually evil (even if I was pretending to be good really hard), and that still wouldn't fool actual spellcasting.
A master spy of 8th level or higher can trick an opponent into believing that she has been charmed or dominated. When the master spy succeeds at a saving throw against a magical effect that provides ongoing control (such as charm person, dominate person, or a vampire’s dominate ability), she can allow the spell to take partial effect. To the caster, it appears that the spy failed her saving throw, but the spy is not under the caster’s control. If the spell provides a telepathic link, it functions normally, but the spy is under no obligation to follow the caster’s commands. The master spy can dismiss a fooled spell as a standard action. Fooled casting can be used when the spy succeeds at a subsequent saving throw against an ongoing effect, such as that granted by slippery mind.
The mesmerist trick "Masterful Fallback" does something sort-of like this, but you can't use it on yourself. This gives me a feeling that there's a mesmerist spell that will do the trick, but honestly, I might be able to convince the DM to let high-level Bluff do this. Still, it'd be good to have a mechanically-supported option.
Alrighty, so: Mind Blank is not a mesmerist spell, for whatever reason. That being said, it grants virtual immunity to divination (a solid step up from Nondetection), and grants +8 resistance to will saves vs mind-affecting, but a nice cloak of resistance will cover most of that, and Towering Will will cover the rest. That said, having only partial divination immunity instead of full isn't good, so I'd like to see if there's a way to pick up better anti-divination abilities from some esoteric mesmerist spell or rogue talent.
[quote=Master Spy 10: Assumption]The ultimate ability of the master spy is to take over another persona entirely, making it her own. As a full-round action, the spy can touch a helpless creature and shift her aura to that of her target. This confuses divination effects and spells, even ones as powerful as discern location, such that they register the spy as being the creature she has touched. This ability is not proof against the actions of deities or similarly powerful beings. The assumption of an identity lasts until the master spy ends it (a standard action) or she uses the ability on another creature.
No idea how I'd even go about replicating this capstone. The closest thing I can think of is using a mind-switching Mesmerist spell to put my mind in the target's body and vice versa, but that still has divinations targeting me coming at me, which I'd like a way around.
Any assistance y'all could give would be appreciated.
...that being said, I have found myself in an interesting scenario where a good number of the abilities it gives me are...superfluous. The exact scenario: I'm putting together a character for a sort-of "underground resistance" kind of game starting at lvl 10 or so, specializing in undetected infiltration and information gathering. Obviously super-useful to this kind of game, and Master Spy has a lot of neat toys. But! As it happens, the build I've ended up migrating into is a Kitsune Mesmerist//U.Rogue (Phantom Thief) with the Realistic Likeness feat. So, I'm going through the Master Spy (intending to take it starting after U.Rogue 5), and I'm...a bit disappointed at just how much of it I already have, to the point that I don't think I actually wanna take it - even though it's perfect by the fluff, I could get the same effects elsewhere...mostly. And that "mostly" is why I made this thread: I would appreciate assistance in tracking down ways to replicate (or at least ape well enough) the abilities I'm currently missing from Master Spy that I actually want.
A master spy adds her class level to all Bluff, Disguise, and Sense Motive checks.
Mesmerist is adding half-level to Bluff, Realistic Likeness is adding +10 to most of my disguise checks, and Phantom Thief is adding half-level to all three, and to one more/2 lvls beyond 5th if I take it further (which, if I drop Master Spy, I will), so overall straight Mesmerist//UR (PT) is looking to do this better. The only one that's slightly losing out is Sense Motive, where I'm getting half-level instead of level added, but the additional skill benefits from Phantom Thief make up for that plenty.
A master spy can create a disguise in half the time normally required. In addition, any penalties from assuming a disguise of a different gender, race, age, or size are reduced by 1.
Starting at 4th level, a master spy can assume a disguise in only 2d4 rounds by taking a –10 penalty on her Disguise check. This penalty drops to –5 at 8th level.
Short and simple: Kitsune+Realistic Likeness+Phantom Thief U.Disguise is already miles ahead of these.
This ability is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage dealt increases by +1d6 at every third level (1st, 4th, 7th, and 10th). If a master spy gets a sneak attack bonus from another source, the bonuses on damage stack.
This one is solved by virtue of "I didn't want this ability, which is why I got rid of it on my Rogue side". I'm fine not getting it here either.
A master spy of 2nd level or higher can deceive truth-detecting magic. A creature using this sort of magic against the spy must succeed on a caster level check against a DC of 15 + the master spy’s class level to succeed (as if she were under the effect of a glibness spell); failure means the magic doesn’t detect the spy’s lies or force her to speak only the truth. This ability does not give the master spy the glibness spell’s bonus on Bluff checks.
At lvl 10 (the starting point for this game), the Glibness spell will cover this when I need it, as will Phantom Thief granting me early access to Unchained Bluff 15 (albeit at a lower DC). At lvl 11 (next level), I will gain this all-day ability with an even better DC than if I was a Master Spy. The sole usefulness of the Master Spy version is maybe if multiple glib lie effects are allowed to stack, but I'm thinking that's probably an edge case.
At 3rd level, a master spy can use magic aura twice per day, but only for the purposes of making an object appear nonmagical.
Magic Aura is on the Mesmerist spell list if I want it (which I'm not entirely sure I do), and I could also pick it up via Rogue Talents pretty easily (especially since the Phantom Thief is particularly friendly with the magic talents).
At 5th level, a master spy can befuddle divinations used against her as if she were under the effect of a nondetection spell with a caster level equal to her character level. She can suppress or resume this protection as a standard action. If dispelled, the spy cannot resume the nondetection for 1d4 rounds.
Nondetection is on the Mesmerist spell list. I'm sure there's a Rogue Talent that could cover it, too.
At 5th level, a master spy can slip away from mental control. This functions as the rogue advanced talent of the same name. If the spy has the slippery mind ability from another class, these abilities stack, but she can still only use slippery mind once per round.
Only thing I'm losing by giving this up is the potential to stack it with another class...which I wasn't gonna be able to do for awhile anyway because I got into this from Rogue 5 and Rogue is where I would've gotten this from.
t 8th level, a master spy learns the art of killing or paralyzing a foe with a careful strike. This ability functions as the assassin’s death attack ability. If the master spy has levels in another class that grants the death attack ability, these levels stack with her master spy level to determine the DC of her death attack, even if she has not yet reached 8th level as a master spy.
Neither wanted nor needed, just like Sneak Attack.
A master spy of 2nd level or higher can alter her alignment aura to deceive spells that discern alignment (such as detect evil). She may choose to detect as any specific alignment, or to detect as no alignment at all. This ability does not protect against spells or effects that cause harm based on alignment. Masking her alignment aura is a standard action, and lasts until she changes it again or ends the effect.
Alright, so while Bluff doesn't have an epic "fake an alignment" option like in 3.5, it does have the Unchained 15 "Creatures magically attempting to read your thoughts, detect your alignment, or reveal when you are lying must attempt a caster level check (DC = 11 + your ranks in Bluff ) or the effect reveals nothing." That all being said, Mask Alignment lets me fake an alignment I don't have, rather than just returning "Error: No Alignment Found", and I'd like the "fake an alignment" option. If there's a way for Mesmerist or Rogue to do that via spells, talents, feats, or items, please let me know. I suspect Mesmerist will have something for this, purely due to class theme, but I've yet to find it.
A master spy gives the appearance of knowing more than she actually does. Starting at 3rd level, she can make untrained Knowledge and Profession checks pertaining to her cover or assumed identity as if she were trained and gains a bonus equal to half her level on these checks. For example, a master spy masquerading as a noblewoman can make untrained Knowledge (history) checks about the kingdom and Knowledge (nobility) checks about its noble and royal families as if she were trained, but she cannot make untrained Knowledge (nature) skill checks to identify herbs.
The U.Rogue talent "Esoteric Knowledge" will let me attempt knowledge checks untrained just in general rather than specifically pertaining to a disguise, but won't do the same for Profession checks (and won't give me a half-level bonus). Additionally, we are playing with background skills, which can take some slight bit of pressure off (a single rank in 20 background knowledges/professions will be a +4 to each of them, but there's other uses for background skills). If you know of a mesmerist spell/trick, rogue talent, feat, or item that could assist with this, I would appreciate it, since even with a build like this I'm too strapped for skill points to really throw them at knowledges/professions even with background skills in play, and I'd like to potentially do other things with the background skills besides.
A 4th-level master spy can conceal her schemes from mind-reading magic. When a creature is using detect thoughts or similar magic to read her mind, she decides what surface thoughts her opponent detects, and her true surface thoughts remain private. This ability does not protect against mental attacks or mind-reading that delves deeper than surface thoughts.
As previously discussed, Unchained Bluff 15 will be available at lvl 10, and will cover the "they don't see the real thing" part of this, but does not cover the "fake something else in its place" part, which I'd like to do. I have a sneaking suspicion that there is a Rogue Talent somewhere that does this, and there's definitely a mesmerist trick/spell that does this, but I've yet to find them. If I could get some assistance in this search, it would be appreciated.
Here, we're getting into abilities that I wouldn't have yet even if I took Master Spy, so I don't need a way to start the game with these abilities, but I would like a way to pick them up within 5 levels.
Starting at 6th level, a master spy’s control over her aura improves. When she assumes a false alignment, she can choose to have all spells and magic items affect her as though she were that alignment; this includes helpful and harmful effects. For example, a neutral good master spy can shift her aura to lawful evil so she can pass through a doorway that shocks creatures that aren’t lawful evil; if hit by holy smite with this shifted aura, she takes damage as if she were evil. A master spy can change her alignment aura from a masked alignment (as per her 2nd-level class feature, where effects still function based on her actual alignment) to a shifted alignment (as per this ability, where effects function based on her assumed alignment) as a standard action. Shifting her alignment aura is a standard action, and lasts until she changes it again or ends the effect.
...I assume there's a mesmerist spell that will actually let me change my alignment on a whim for the purposes of effects that affect me based on alignment, but I haven't found one yet. The closest I've found to this is a DC 30 UMD check (10 ranks, Cha-focused build, half-level bonus...shouldn't be difficult) will let me count as an alignment for the purposes of using magic items, but I don't think that would prevent a holy sword from hurting me if I was actually evil (even if I was pretending to be good really hard), and that still wouldn't fool actual spellcasting.
A master spy of 8th level or higher can trick an opponent into believing that she has been charmed or dominated. When the master spy succeeds at a saving throw against a magical effect that provides ongoing control (such as charm person, dominate person, or a vampire’s dominate ability), she can allow the spell to take partial effect. To the caster, it appears that the spy failed her saving throw, but the spy is not under the caster’s control. If the spell provides a telepathic link, it functions normally, but the spy is under no obligation to follow the caster’s commands. The master spy can dismiss a fooled spell as a standard action. Fooled casting can be used when the spy succeeds at a subsequent saving throw against an ongoing effect, such as that granted by slippery mind.
The mesmerist trick "Masterful Fallback" does something sort-of like this, but you can't use it on yourself. This gives me a feeling that there's a mesmerist spell that will do the trick, but honestly, I might be able to convince the DM to let high-level Bluff do this. Still, it'd be good to have a mechanically-supported option.
Alrighty, so: Mind Blank is not a mesmerist spell, for whatever reason. That being said, it grants virtual immunity to divination (a solid step up from Nondetection), and grants +8 resistance to will saves vs mind-affecting, but a nice cloak of resistance will cover most of that, and Towering Will will cover the rest. That said, having only partial divination immunity instead of full isn't good, so I'd like to see if there's a way to pick up better anti-divination abilities from some esoteric mesmerist spell or rogue talent.
[quote=Master Spy 10: Assumption]The ultimate ability of the master spy is to take over another persona entirely, making it her own. As a full-round action, the spy can touch a helpless creature and shift her aura to that of her target. This confuses divination effects and spells, even ones as powerful as discern location, such that they register the spy as being the creature she has touched. This ability is not proof against the actions of deities or similarly powerful beings. The assumption of an identity lasts until the master spy ends it (a standard action) or she uses the ability on another creature.
No idea how I'd even go about replicating this capstone. The closest thing I can think of is using a mind-switching Mesmerist spell to put my mind in the target's body and vice versa, but that still has divinations targeting me coming at me, which I'd like a way around.
Any assistance y'all could give would be appreciated.