Is This A Legal Spell Combat Move?

[Palanan]

In our last session, the party magus used his spellstrike/spell combat features in a way I haven’t seen before, and I wasn’t sure how to rule it.

During a fight with an enemy team, the party magus headed straight for an enemy caster, who was defended by an enemy archer. At the start of the maneuver, the party magus, enemy archer and enemy caster were all in a straight line:


C...A...M

Just before the magus’ turn, the enemy archer took a five-foot step and fired at the magus, missing completely.


.....A
C.......M

On his turn, the magus used one of his spell combat attacks to put down the archer, then took a five-foot step to get within reach of the enemy caster, and then attacked using spellstrike to channel Shocking Grasp.


.....A
C...M

As it happened, he missed and lost the spell, but before we got to that point I was hung up for a while, wondering if you can a) attack two different targets with spell combat, and b) if you can take a five-foot step or other move action between attacking two different targets.

I’m also not clear on whether he could cast Shocking Grasp in between the two attacks, since according to the spell combat description, “if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks.” Was that legal, and was the rest of the maneuver legal?

.

[Kurald Galain]

I was hung up for a while, wondering if you can a) attack two different targets with spell combat,
Yes. Nothing in spell combat makes any restriction on who the targets are.


and b) if you can take a five-foot step or other move action between attacking two different targets.
Careful now. You say "a five-foot step or other move action", but a five-foot step is not a move action. Yes, you can take a five-foot step in the middle of full attacking OR in the middle of spell combat. No, you cannot do that with a move action.


I’m also not clear on whether he could cast Shocking Grasp in between the two attacks, since according to the spell combat description, “if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks.” Was that legal, and was the rest of the maneuver legal?
Yes. The catch is that casting SG gives him another attack. He is not casting SG between the iterative attacks of his main weapon.

[Elkad]

"This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. "

"If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Classes), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones."

"You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round."

Therefore, legal.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Kurald Galain
Yes, you can take a five-foot step in the middle of full attacking OR in the middle of spell combat. No, you cannot do that with a move action.

Okay, thanks. I think I inadvertently set him up for this with my NPC’s five-foot-step, which wasn’t what I’d been planning on.

Is there a mini-guide out there for the fine art of the five-foot step? I find all the different movement rules hard to keep track of, especially during a complex combat when I’m trying to run a number of NPCs.

[Kurald Galain]

Is there a mini-guide out there for the fine art of the five-foot step? I find all the different movement rules hard to keep track of, especially during a complex combat when I’m trying to run a number of NPCs.

In this case, I suppose the Magus guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423754-Myrrh-Frankincense-and-Steel-Kurald-Galain-s-Guide-to-the-Magus)?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Kurald Galain
In this case, I suppose the Magus guide?

I’m aware of your guide, and your section on tactics is certainly useful; but I’m wondering if there’s something more comprehensive out there, which covers five-foot steps as applied to all classes. The nitty-gritty of combat tactics is something I have a hard time keeping up with, especially when five-foot steps interact with attacks of opportunity.

For instance, in your guide you mention the following: “…your spell provokes opportunity attacks unless you cast defensively.” So, in the situation I’ve described, if the enemy archer had been an active threat, could he have threatened an AoO on the magus when the magus cast Shocking Grasp?

[upho]

I’m aware of your guide, and your section on tactics is certainly useful; but I’m wondering if there’s something more comprehensive out there, which covers five-foot steps as applied to all classes. The nitty-gritty of combat tactics is something I have a hard time keeping up with, especially when five-foot steps interact with attacks of opportunity.Thankfully, there are actually very few exceptions to how 5-foot steps work, and I believe you should soon get an intuitive feel for how they can affect combat. This is probably also the reason why you won't find a guide specifically about them.

I think what typically makes positioning and especially melee much more tactically challenging for the GM is for example PCs intelligently using large area control spells (pits, walls etc), highly optimized melee control PCs which typically have great reach and AoOs with powerful control/debuff effects, and for example a magus maximizing mobility through various spells (bladed dash, fly, dimension door etc). But PCs of course typically gain such abilities gradually over several levels, so you should have plenty time to become familiar with the existing ones well before new stuff come into play. My tip is that you once every few levels or so read up on the PC's most important combat abilities, and then try to get a feel for how they work in practice by actually testing them out on the grid when you're preparing for an upcoming session.

And in general, remember that your players' brains outnumber yours, and that you may very well have to compensate for that fact when planning encounters. This of course also becomes increasingly important the better the players are at tactics and teamwork.


For instance, in your guide you mention the following: “…your spell provokes opportunity attacks unless you cast defensively.” So, in the situation I’ve described, if the enemy archer had been an active threat, could he have threatened an AoO on the magus when the magus cast Shocking Grasp?Yes, if the archer had actually wielded some kind of melee weapon which doesn't require hands (such as unarmed strike with Improved Unarmed Strike, a natural attack, armor spikes, dwarven boulder helm etc), the magus would indeed have been required to cast defensively. IME, trying to mess up the magus' casting with AoOs isn't a reliable tactic, and it quickly becomes less so after the earliest levels. The reason of course being that the concentration check DC is far too low to present much of a problem, especially for a magus who'll mostly only spam low level spells in melee.

[Zanos]

Okay, thanks. I think I inadvertently set him up for this with my NPC’s five-foot-step, which wasn’t what I’d been planning on.

Is there a mini-guide out there for the fine art of the five-foot step? I find all the different movement rules hard to keep track of, especially during a complex combat when I’m trying to run a number of NPCs.
Being able to take a 5-ft step during a full attack is a pretty obscure but very useful rule. To be honest, I didn't even know about it until a year ago.