Anti-Rogue Tactics for a Bard?

[the_brazenburn]

First of all, let me please ask Ivor_the_Mad, Unoriginal, and anybody else who is going to give me abuse to please not post on this thread. I don't want to be criticized for in-game decisions right now. Much appreciated.

Now, I'm being attacked in game by a rogue party member (rogue in both senses of the word). He's come up and attacked me with a Sword of Wounding while I was sleeping, and now has me trapped. I'm playing a halfling glam bard 6/GOOlock 1 and have access to a Anstruth Harp. Since I'm in a small enclosed space (a submarine 500 feet below the surface of the water about 50 miles from Waterdeep), running away or using Wall of Thorns and Control Weather aren't options. The rest of the party won't be able to come to my aid.

My original plan was to spam Command with my Mantle of Majesty to make the rogue drop his weapons and tie himself up. This might work, since he's only level 5 (with a 1 level dip into GOOlock), so he doesn't have proficiency with Wis saves, and he doesn't have a particularly high Wis score. Unfortunately, he can sneak attack every turn due to his being a swashbuckler.

How would you combat a rogue attacking you in this manner?

[bc56]

This might sound a bit blunt, but it's the best advice I can give here.

You want to hear how you can kill the other PC, but that will cause more problems than it solves.

Honestly though, I've read Ivor's stuff, and you are the problem here. You sold/tried to the other guy's soul, when the player wasn't there to approve or disapprove, then you consider his PC rogue for trying to kill you for that.
Honestly, I'm shocked the rest of the party didn't run to the rogue's aid, especially if they're supposed to be good.
Your character sounds like Belkar. You do not want to play Belkar, you'll just make everyone mad.

What you need to do is resolve this OOC without fighting IC, then resolve it IC without the characters killing each other. Otherwise, your relationship with the rest of your group will be hurt OOC.

[the_brazenburn]

I think something is wrong with this forum.

Seriously, the first thing I say in this thread is that I don't want people talking about how my party is dysfunctional. Then the first response is saying exactly that.

Now, I can understand that you may think that I've done something wrong (or even be the real problem in the party) but you must understand that it is ridiculous for me to simply say "I do nothing" when somebody is trying to stab me in the middle of the night.

Please, please, please don't just copy/paste your arguments from the other thread here.

[white lancer]

Failed WIS saves can be among the most debilitating in the game. And they have the added benefit of not actually killing your party member--you can incapacitate them and figure out why they're attacking you and whatnot, depending on the situation.

That said, this is 100% dependent on what spells you have available. My Bard has Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Suggestion, and Blindness/Deafness, which would all be aces in this situation. Something like Hold Person would be amazing as well. Command isn't going to be nearly as effective due to the duration, so you're going to have to hope you have something else.

[the_brazenburn]

Failed WIS saves can be among the most debilitating in the game. And they have the added benefit of not actually killing your party member--you can incapacitate them and figure out why they're attacking you and whatnot, depending on the situation.

That said, this is 100% dependent on what spells you have available. My Bard has Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Suggestion, and Blindness/Deafness, which would all be aces in this situation. Something like Hold Person would be amazing as well. Command isn't going to be nearly as effective due to the duration, so you're going to have to hope you have something else.

I do have Suggestion, which I had also considered using. My main worry was that it uses up a second level slot, whereas I can use Mantle of Majesty to spam Command at will.

[Unoriginal]

Always nice to be singled out and called an abuser for no reasons.

Anyway.

One piece of advice: if you want people to help you defeat an oponent, posting a list of their stats, capacities and magic items, and a similar list of yours, both as complete as you can, would be rather useful.

[zinycor]

Ask your gm to start a new game where no stupid situations like these would happen

[the_brazenburn]

Always nice to be singled out and called an abuser for no reasons.

Anyway.

One piece of advice: if you want people to help you defeat an oponent, posting a list of their stats, capacities and magic items, and a similar list of yours, both as complete as you can, would be rather useful.

All right, thanks for the advice. I will do that.

I am a halfling glamor bard 6/Great Old Warlock 1. My cantrips include Fire Bolt, Friends, Eldritch Blast, and a bunch of others I can't remember off the top of my head.

I have Charm Person, Command, Suggestion, Hypnotic Pattern, and most notable illusions.

I have access to an Anstruth Harp, a Bag of Beans, and a +1 shortsword.

I'm down to 37 HP, with an AC of 15.

My opponent is a sea elf swashbuckler 5/Great Old warlock 1 ( I can't remember what spells he picked).

I don't know his precise HP and AC, but it's ballpark 50 or so HP, with 16 AC.

He's wielding a Rapier of Wounding, and he's also got a Ring of Evasion.

[TheYell]

Skip the next session.

Surely, nobody would kill your character while you were away from the table.

[the_brazenburn]

Apparently, the rogue has agreed to forget everything and for us to both scrap our characters and start fresh. This thread can die now.

[MadBear]

My original plan was to spam Command with my Mantle of Majesty to make the rogue drop his weapons and tie himself up. This might work, since he's only level 5 (with a 1 level dip into GOOlock), so he doesn't have proficiency with Wis saves, and he doesn't have a particularly high Wis score. Unfortunately, he can sneak attack every turn due to his being a swashbuckler.

Just a quick piece of advice. Command is a single word. Per the rules, you cannot use it to have anyone tie themselves up. At best, you could say "tie" and the DM would arbitrate what that means.

Just letting you know now, because later on, this misunderstanding could get you killed (let's say you said "tie" to a giant and instead of tying itself up, it killed you by turning you into a knot.)

[zinycor]

Just a quick piece of advice. Command is a single word. Per the rules, you cannot use it to have anyone tie themselves up. At best, you could say "tie" and the DM would arbitrate what that means.

Just letting you know now, because later on, this misunderstanding could get you killed (let's say you said "tie" to a giant and instead of tying itself up, it killed you by turning you into a knot.)

From a previous thread it seems that this group GM is very lenient with the use of command.

[Vorpalchicken]

I definitely would have tried hypnotic pattern. A disadvantaged wisdom save (thanks to the harp) would likely have left him incapacitated for a minute. (No save at the end of each round unlike most spells)

You could then take all his stuff, tie him up and possibly get help- unless all the other players also wanted your character dead.

Too late I know.

[strangebloke]

The only winning move is to lose.

Seriously, this guy is your friend IRL, right? I mean, ostensibly at least. Let him kill your guy, and roll a new character. Laugh it off with him. More peaceful for everyone involved. I think you said in a previous thread that you'd be ok with your character getting consumed by the arcanoloth, right? View this as a karmic thing.

If you absolutely must win, out a sense of pride or whatever... cast hypnotic pattern. Or cast command:flee, and run to get help.

Then retire the character.

[Specter]

Charm Person.

[Tubben]

If you absolutely must win, out a sense of pride or whatever... cast hypnotic pattern. Or cast command:flee, and run to get help.


Command and Hypnotic Pattern wouldnt work, their GM said the room is dark.

HP requires the target to see the pattern and command requires the caster to see the target :-)

Edit: Charm Person requires that the caster sees the target.

[the_brazenburn]

Command and Hypnotic Pattern wouldnt work, their GM said the room is dark.

HP requires the target to see the pattern and command requires the caster to see the target :-)

Edit: Charm Person requires that the caster sees the target.

HP would still work. The opponent is a sea elf with darkvision.

[ChainsawFlwrcld]

HP shouldn't work. HP says is creates a twisting pattern of colors and Dark Vision says that you can’t discern color in darkness. I guess it would depend on the GM, but after reading 2 threads on you guys I'd assume that he would allow you to do it anyway.

[Vorpalchicken]

So someone who is color blind is immune to hypnosis? That doesn't wash. Also, the hypnotic pattern is probably colored lights.

[ChainsawFlwrcld]

So someone who is color blind is immune to hypnosis? That doesn't wash. Also, the hypnotic pattern is probably colored lights.

Since there is no color blind condition in the books I'd say no. Not realistic I know, but then again we are playing a game with fantasy races who can get shot through the eye with an arrow and feel perfectly fine after sleeping it off for 8 hours.

[Tubben]

So someone who is color blind is immune to hypnosis? That doesn't wash. Also, the hypnotic pattern is probably colored lights.

Given how strict the wording in 5e is, HP dont work in a dark room vs someone with dark Vision. Atleast by RAW. RAI could be something else.
In an PvP fight, as an DM, you can bet i will handle that situation STRICT by RAW.

And HP and Hypnosis are 2 different things.

[Vorpalchicken]

If the inability to perceive color would negate Hypnotic Pattern, it would be spelled out in the spell description.

Your interpretation is not RAW by any means.

Plenty of animals also can't perceive color and they aren't immune.

[MadBear]

This is one reason that I prefer spell descriptions leave out the flavor text (or that they put flavor text in italics). That way there isn't this confusion over whether someone with dark vision in the dark is supposed to or not supposed to be affected by the spell.

[ChainsawFlwrcld]

If the inability to perceive color would negate Hypnotic Pattern, it would be spelled out in the spell description.

I'll counter your argument with If the inability to perceive color was an official condition that the designers were considering it would be listed in Appendix A: Conditions. There are many other real life conditions that are not mentioned in the Appendix such as being hard of hearing and what affect spells would have on those conditions aren't considered either.

It depends on the GM at her/his table but I've seen enough min/maxers in my days to know that someone would choose color blind & hard of hearing if it gave them a tactical advantage that I wouldn't allow either condition to affect gameplay at all. I'd say that the inability to see color in darkness protects that character from HP at that time but not once the lights are on.

[MadBear]

I'll counter your argument with If the inability to perceive color was an official condition that the designers were considering it would be listed in Appendix A: Conditions. There are many other real life conditions that are not mentioned in the Appendix such as being hard of hearing and what affect spells would have on those conditions aren't considered either.

It depends on the GM at her/his table but I've seen enough min/maxers in my days to know that someone would choose color blind & hard of hearing if it gave them a tactical advantage that I wouldn't allow either condition to affect gameplay at all. I'd say that the inability to see color in darkness protects that character from HP at that time but not once the lights are on.

I think you misread what mr. Chicken wrote. I'm pretty sure he's agreeing with you, that hypnotic pattern works on colorblind people.

[ChainsawFlwrcld]

I think you misread what mr. Chicken wrote. I'm pretty sure he's agreeing with you, that hypnotic pattern works on colorblind people.

Nah, Vorpalchicken is saying that since Hypnotic Pattern doesn't specifically say it doesn't work on people who are color blind HP should also work in the dark against people who have darkvision who can see only shades of gray. I disagree with him/her with the darkvison portion.

[Vorpalchicken]

Hypnotic Pattern only mentions color once in the description.

It also mentions glowing materials as material components.

It is just as likely if not moreso that the pattern glows in the dark (you know like lights that hypnotists use) than color being an important part of the spell.

I'm okay if a DM chooses to rule it that way but it is certainly not RAW.

[ChainsawFlwrcld]

Vorpalchicken I guess that would be the best answer. HP creates an illuminated color pattern. Problem solved. Good call.