Ecology of a dungeon

[drack]

OK guys, give me a hand here. I think I might have to brew a monster at this rate, or maybe even a few.

Dungeons have their own ecology. It's a monster eats monster world and everyone's gotta eat. I'm a GM here and I've got a dungeon. I'm setting up my creatures, traps, ect, and they're all eating each other. Everything is dandy. ...but then I notice something. My monster numbers are dwindling. They're all dying out. Even the ones that will eat anything and reproduce in droves like goblins aren't finding a nice staple food source. I mean, sure, maybe there's a florescent moss or something, but that all got eaten five dungeon-generations ago. Please help save this poor DM from dungeon depletion before it's too late!

Is there any relatively weak, easy to raise monster with a high reproductive rate which doesn't need to eat to survive and grow, and/or can live off rocks found in dungeons? It's fine, the goblins will eat them even if they're plants... :smallfrown: Maybe even the occasional ooze or two, though such things should probably be eaten in moderation

Before you mention it, yes there's a spoon of sustenance or two in circulation, but lets face it, a dungeon so large as mine clearly needs more then just that to get by... :smallfrown:

Edit: accepting monsters form any edition, preferably 3.0, 3.5, or PF.

[Fouredged Sword]

Let there be an ooze that feeds of something like cold or fire. It has a source of food from nature and is fed on in turn by a more edible creature such as a rat with a subtype that makes it immune to the ooze.

Other creatures eat the rats (or whatevers).

You need some sort of baseline power source. On the surface it's the sun. In the underdark it's magic/magma vents/planer portals.

[drack]

Aye, but ooze does not a balanced diet make, particularly something so elementally attributed... :smallfrown: I suppose aoe eat magic, but more spells then ambient magic (though not explicitly not ambient stuff), still, giant drops of mercury aren't a good food staple either... Was considering brewing a couple lowlife monsters to fill the role, but if they already exist why bother. :smallbiggrin:

[Fouredged Sword]

The base of an ecosystem is generally something very simple. Algee, grass, plankton... None of these things make a balanced human diet.

You have bottom rung feeders who eat the base and make it complicated. Cows eat grass and digest it into proteins. If you ate grass you wouldn't get proteins out of it. Cows can. Balanced for a top tier scavenger like humans is a ton of variety that mono feeders (predators or herbevors) simply do not need. They trade the ability to digest just about anything for the need to digest a large variety.

So a small prey spieces eats ooze or whatnot and is eaten by mid rung preditors. Their bodies and waste feeds fungus that breaks down the rot. The fungus is eaten by omnivores and hervivores who feed the top tier preditors.

[Jowgen]

Oh boy is the Dungeonbred template (Dungeonscape 113) for you.

Your critters will go down one size and eat as if they were another size down from that. Also, your critters will all happily eat the same thing, rather than each other. Also gets some other bonuses. Guardian monster (comes right after Dungeonbred) is also useful in this context, depending on what you have.

[Fouredged Sword]

An interesting natural trap would be a hot magma tube that is spattered with brown mold. The brown mold feeds of the heat of the magma hidden behind the rock. The mold is in turn eaten by cold subtype cave squirls.

The tunnel is kept at an actually quite plesent tempature. If the tube gets warm the mold grows to cool it. Once cold the squirls move in and eat the mold. Once the mold is mostly eaten the tube heats back up and drives the squirls away before they can eat it all.

The party explores the magma tube and notes it is oddly cool for a magma tube. A spot + knowledge dungeoneering check reveals the brown mold.

The party disturbs the squirls and is attacked by a squirl swarm (use rat swarm with +10 to jump checks). 3 cr2 swarms. The party wizard notes the cold subtype tells of the squirls and applies a fireball to wipe them out, easy peasy.

The squirls all die and now your level 5 party is in the middle of a massive brown mold bloom.

[BowStreetRunner]

Creatures that form the bottom of the food chain are unlikely to deserve an entry in any of the Monster Manuals. The foundation of your dungeon's ecosystem is going to be based primarily off of two types of producers. The first will be organisms that convert naturally occurring energy and matter into something more digestible by higher life forms. They may be found near thermal sources like underground volcanic vents and such, and will have a way to use the ambient energy there to convert local materials. The second will be recyclers - creatures who live off the byproduct of the more complex creatures. Even your most advanced predators aren't going to be 100% efficient and will leave behind things to decompose. These two groups will include many Troglofauna (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troglofauna) and Stygofauna (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stygofauna) that form a backdrop for your dungeon adventures, but are relatively unobtrusive.

In addition, you need to consider whether outside sources of food enter into the dungeon system. Besides subterranean fauna that spend their entire lives in the dungeon, there might also be organisms coming in from the outside. A cave with a surface opening might bring in a large number of bats or rats, for instance. A surface river might empty into a large underground lake, bringing lots of organisms with it. Or there might even be a supernatural opening of some sort that allows in creatures from another plane entirely.

I think if you just mention the presence of such innocuous creatures from time to time you can create the suggestion of a sufficient food source without needing to fill it with actual monsters.

[Fouredged Sword]

Interesting idea - Trollgourds.

Not actually related to trolls this plant is a magical creation of a psion who lived deep in caves. It grows without light or water. Rather this plant uses Sustinance as a Pla on itself once per day. It has a tough fiberous core and vines that bloom and grow gourds full of sweet brain like fruit under a thin shell.

A single trollgourd plant blooms and fruits once per year. The fruit of one plant can feed 1 medium creature for one day.

Left alone the gourds will fall to the ground and sprout roots. The gourd will cling to any surface it finds purchase and grow into a mature trollgourd over 3-4 years. The fruit turns fiberous and inedible shortly after sprouting roots. Taken from the base a trollgourd fruit will olny stay edible for one week.

The plant emmits a distinct odure and chemically prevents another trollgourd from sprouting within 10ft. Fruit kept near the base will remain fresh for a month before rotting. Fruit from cultivated trollfruit are normally left on the plant until ready to eat.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by BowStreetRunner
The foundation of your dungeon's ecosystem is going to be based primarily off of two types of producers. The first will be organisms that convert naturally occurring energy and matter into something more digestible by higher life forms.

Building on this, I recommend you check out the blood-red cave worms (http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/files/2016/06/MG_5134_Sulphur-Cave2c-Worms-and-Streamers-by-Norman-R.-Thompson.jpg) that live on sulfur seeps in a cave near Steamboat Springs, Colorado (http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2016/06/03/see-the-ugly-beauty-that-lives-in-a-toxic-cave/). These worms seem to be grazing on bacterial mats growing on sulfur deposits; the bacteria reduce hydrogen sulfide, and the cave worms feed on the bacteria, providing a potential link from chemoautotrophs to the rest of the cave community.

I could see goblins slurping up the worms like spaghetti, or using the worms as fertilizer to grow mushrooms, cockroaches, and other goblin food. And plenty of other cave organisms could feed on the worms (or other bacterial grazers) as well.

[drack]

The base of an ecosystem is generally something very simple. Algee, grass, plankton... None of these things make a balanced human diet.

You have bottom rung feeders who eat the base and make it complicated. Cows eat grass and digest it into proteins. If you ate grass you wouldn't get proteins out of it. Cows can. Balanced for a top tier scavenger like humans is a ton of variety that mono feeders (predators or herbevors) simply do not need. They trade the ability to digest just about anything for the need to digest a large variety.

So a small prey spieces eats ooze or whatnot and is eaten by mid rung preditors. Their bodies and waste feeds fungus that breaks down the rot. The fungus is eaten by omnivores and hervivores who feed the top tier preditors.

Most of those bases are plants which absorb nutrients from the rocks/soil/water and energy from the sun, eating an ooze that grows solely off heat sounds like eating fire elementals, though you're right, they probably slowly eat your walls and such too... Hrmnnn...

Oh boy is the Dungeonbred template (Dungeonscape 113) for you.

Your critters will go down one size and eat as if they were another size down from that. Also, your critters will all happily eat the same thing, rather than each other. Also gets some other bonuses. Guardian monster (comes right after Dungeonbred) is also useful in this context, depending on what you have.

Aye, somehow I hadn't thought of it, but you're right, all except that longer lifespan part sound intriguing and useful... (since longer lifespan probably means less reproduction which means less monsters to eat...)


An interesting natural trap would be a hot magma tube that is spattered with brown mold. The brown mold feeds of the heat of the magma hidden behind the rock. The mold is in turn eaten by cold subtype cave squirls.

The tunnel is kept at an actually quite plesent tempature. If the tube gets warm the mold grows to cool it. Once cold the squirls move in and eat the mold. Once the mold is mostly eaten the tube heats back up and drives the squirls away before they can eat it all.

The party explores the magma tube and notes it is oddly cool for a magma tube. A spot + knowledge dungeoneering check reveals the brown mold.

The party disturbs the squirls and is attacked by a squirl swarm (use rat swarm with +10 to jump checks). 3 cr2 swarms. The party wizard notes the cold subtype tells of the squirls and applies a fireball to wipe them out, easy peasy.

The squirls all die and now your level 5 party is in the middle of a massive brown mold bloom.

That one's a keeper. Seriously, tuck that into your GMing top hat for down the line. :smallbiggrin:

Creatures that form the bottom of the food chain are unlikely to deserve an entry in any of the Monster Manuals. The foundation of your dungeon's ecosystem is going to be based primarily off of two types of producers. The first will be organisms that convert naturally occurring energy and matter into something more digestible by higher life forms. They may be found near thermal sources like underground volcanic vents and such, and will have a way to use the ambient energy there to convert local materials. The second will be recyclers - creatures who live off the byproduct of the more complex creatures. Even your most advanced predators aren't going to be 100% efficient and will leave behind things to decompose. These two groups will include many Troglofauna (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troglofauna) and Stygofauna (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stygofauna) that form a backdrop for your dungeon adventures, but are relatively unobtrusive.

In addition, you need to consider whether outside sources of food enter into the dungeon system. Besides subterranean fauna that spend their entire lives in the dungeon, there might also be organisms coming in from the outside. A cave with a surface opening might bring in a large number of bats or rats, for instance. A surface river might empty into a large underground lake, bringing lots of organisms with it. Or there might even be a supernatural opening of some sort that allows in creatures from another plane entirely.

I think if you just mention the presence of such innocuous creatures from time to time you can create the suggestion of a sufficient food source without needing to fill it with actual monsters.

Aye, I know, only my dungeon is rather sealed off where most things won't come in. The notion was more a whim of mine to make that base, normally not deserving of a monster entry thing, be a step up and get one. Sorta like how rats and bats (especially in swarms or as variants or in the form of things like dire animals) have stats.

I had a few ideas, but none really stuck. I think mixing in some of this creativity soup I've found my answer though, so thanks all. :smallbiggrin:

Edit:

Building on this, I recommend you check out the blood-red cave worms (http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/files/2016/06/MG_5134_Sulphur-Cave2c-Worms-and-Streamers-by-Norman-R.-Thompson.jpg) that live on sulfur seeps in a cave near Steamboat Springs, Colorado (http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2016/06/03/see-the-ugly-beauty-that-lives-in-a-toxic-cave/). These worms seem to be grazing on bacterial mats growing on sulfur deposits; the bacteria reduce hydrogen sulfide, and the cave worms feed on the bacteria, providing a potential link from chemoautotrophs to the rest of the cave community.

I could see goblins slurping up the worms like spaghetti, or using the worms as fertilizer to grow mushrooms, cockroaches, and other goblin food. And plenty of other cave organisms could feed on the worms (or other bacterial grazers) as well.

Oooh, I like the visual on that... I'll fit 'er in there too. Thanks mate. :smallbiggrin:

[Braininthejar2]

My headcanon for Underdark has always been "fungi feeding off ambient magic" as the bottom of the food chain. Once you get those, you can get rothe / giant bombardier beetles / othyugs, and the ecosystem can start from there.

[drack]

Aye, and making them glow or not as preferred to kill two birds with one stone. That's the classic that I went to first, but I felt like going the extra mile to find something special for my players... :smallbiggrin: Oh they're so lucky to have me... Just imagine all the CR5-7 encounters I'll be able to start throwing their way once they hit level 3 regarding the scarcity of food and various powerful dungeon dwellers fighting over it all... And then when they die they can just roll up a new level 1 and return to being the food being fought over instead. :smallbiggrin:

[Arael666]

OK guys, give me a hand here. I think I might have to brew a monster at this rate, or maybe even a few.

Dungeons have their own ecology. It's a monster eats monster world and everyone's gotta eat. I'm a GM here and I've got a dungeon. I'm setting up my creatures, traps, ect, and they're all eating each other. Everything is dandy. ...but then I notice something. My monster numbers are dwindling. They're all dying out. Even the ones that will eat anything and reproduce in droves like goblins aren't finding a nice staple food source. I mean, sure, maybe there's a florescent moss or something, but that all got eaten five dungeon-generations ago. Please help save this poor DM from dungeon depletion before it's too late!

Is there any relatively weak, easy to raise monster with a high reproductive rate which doesn't need to eat to survive and grow, and/or can live off rocks found in dungeons? It's fine, the goblins will eat them even if they're plants... :smallfrown: Maybe even the occasional ooze or two, though such things should probably be eaten in moderation

Before you mention it, yes there's a spoon of sustenance or two in circulation, but lets face it, a dungeon so large as mine clearly needs more then just that to get by... :smallfrown:

Edit: accepting monsters form any edition, preferably 3.0, 3.5, or PF.

Does it really have to be inside the dungeon? I mean, if we're talking intelligent creatures like goblin or kobolds, there is no reason for then not to organize hunting parties to the exterior.

Tha being said, I think you need to see a bigger picture, if your dungeon is really that large as you make it sound, there should exist at least two ecosistems that do not consist of monsters from where the local population could ger enough food (monsters are at the top of the food chain mostly, not in the middle).

I can see these two: an underground river forming a few natural pools where you have different sized fishes, aquatic snakes and frogs. The dungeon walls and floor would be populated by various insects and arachnids that would provide sustain for snakes, rats, bats, whose dejects would nourish various vermins who would close the loop by feeding the insects and arachnids.

All that does not even take into consideration the fungi you mentioned, who would only enrich the ecosystem. Anything brought from the outside would just become more nutrients on the long run.

[Karl Aegis]

Goblins live in the Plains environment. How close to the surface are these magma vents where you can still find goblins? Pretty unusual finding things outside their natural environment, if you ask me.

[BowStreetRunner]

Goblins live in the Plains environment. How close to the surface are these magma vents where you can still find goblins? Pretty unusual finding things outside their natural environment, if you ask me.
From MM1 page 133 "These creatures live wherever they can, from dank caves to dismal ruins". I don't think it's beyond belief to think that some goblins found their way into a dungeon and formed a society down there - particularly if the way out became blocked for them.

[drack]

Does it really have to be inside the dungeon? I mean, if we're talking intelligent creatures like goblin or kobolds, there is no reason for then not to organize hunting parties to the exterior.
My treasure room is at the front, it prevents things from leaving, there is only one entrance. :smallbiggrin:

Tha being said, I think you need to see a bigger picture, if your dungeon is really that large as you make it sound, there should exist at least two ecosistems that do not consist of monsters from where the local population could ger enough food (monsters are at the top of the food chain mostly, not in the middle).
Aye, it's quite big with multiple ecosystems and many different tribes and monster types trapped within who constantly fight over resources and space. While the area around the treasure room is generally avoided by anything strong enough to know better leaving weak monsters like goblins there, there's certainly stronger things there too. Mostly I was thinking of the immediate level or two with such weak creatures. Something strong enough that they're encouraged to be strong, something plentiful enough for their population to be good, and something that can actually grow and be used as a food source. Generally a low magic option as would be within their means.

I can see these two: an underground river forming a few natural pools where you have different sized fishes, aquatic snakes and frogs. The dungeon walls and floor would be populated by various insects and arachnids that would provide sustain for snakes, rats, bats, whose dejects would nourish various vermin who would close the loop by feeding the insects and arachnids.
The former allows an escape for aquatic lifeforms and those which needn't breath, the latter, while recycling nutrients, won't give enough energy without some kind of input there, and thus will collapse given enough time. Sorta like the monster-eats-monster cycle but on a smaller scale (assuming some magical creatures can digest excrement, which I think they can...)


All that does not even take into consideration the fungi you mentioned, who would only enrich the ecosystem. Anything brought from the outside would just become more nutrients on the long run.
Aye, technically the PCs are nutrient from the outside, just that there previously was no consistent supply thereof.

Hope ya don't feel I'm shooting ya down here. :smallsmile:

Goblins live in the Plains environment. How close to the surface are these magma vents where you can still find goblins? Pretty unusual finding things outside their natural environment, if you ask me.


From MM1 page 133 "These creatures live wherever they can, from dank caves to dismal ruins". I don't think it's beyond belief to think that some goblins found their way into a dungeon and formed a society down there - particularly if the way out became blocked for them.

Aye, it's a setting where dungeons tend to be safe havens for anything that clashes with the local regime. (Differs from country to country.) There are wild monsters too, but those are generally safe enough to hunt as military exercises giving the easy xp to the army and leaving the suicidal stuff for desperate adventurers. :smallsmile:

[Nifft]

My headcanon for Underdark has always been "fungi feeding off ambient magic" as the bottom of the food chain. Once you get those, you can get rothe / giant bombardier beetles / othyugs, and the ecosystem can start from there.
There are deep-sea vents which support a lightless ecology, but they're relatively small and non-threatening.

There are spiders which evolved to survive in various caverns, but they survive by (a) being very small, and (b) by scavenging food that falls into the caverns.

So yeah, you practically need to impose magical nutrition at some point if you want an "ecology" to exist underground, particularly an ecology of big and dangerous and carnivorous dungeon monsters.

In addition to ambient magic, there's taint, which might serve as both the origin of the monstrous creature, and also its fallback source of nutrition. That could explain why a creature would never evolve beyond its mundane appetite for flesh: taint might amplify appetites, even as it provided enough sustenance to survive without. Permanent starvation would be a horrible existence.

[Draconi Redfir]

Magically enhanced dire rabbits? or just normal rabbits? Ants?

if you're going for an ecology, you probably need some mundane real-world creatures to help keep it stable. and / or genetically / magically modified versions of them. Modified grass that grows on any surface and never stops spreading for example.

[Starbuck_II]

Interesting idea - Trollgourds.

Not actually related to trolls this plant is a magical creation of a psion who lived deep in caves. It grows without light or water. Rather this plant uses Sustinance as a Pla on itself once per day. It has a tough fiberous core and vines that bloom and grow gourds full of sweet brain like fruit under a thin shell.

A single trollgourd plant blooms and fruits once per year. The fruit of one plant can feed 1 medium creature for one day.

Left alone the gourds will fall to the ground and sprout roots. The gourd will cling to any surface it finds purchase and grow into a mature trollgourd over 3-4 years. The fruit turns fiberous and inedible shortly after sprouting roots. Taken from the base a trollgourd fruit will olny stay edible for one week.

The plant emmits a distinct odure and chemically prevents another trollgourd from sprouting within 10ft. Fruit kept near the base will remain fresh for a month before rotting. Fruit from cultivated trollfruit are normally left on the plant until ready to eat.

Of course, what mostly feeds on Trollguards is Brain moles. They are an invasive species that recently emigrated there.
They aren't dangerous to the other creatures so the other ones scare them away when they get hungry too.

[Arael666]

you could make an underground forest, I don't remember where I read the concept but I recall reading about a ceiling of lava, separating the lava was some kind of clear crystal that could not be melt. The luminosity fueled an imense underground forest (with diffent collors, since the flore inside evolved to better absorb the infra red light) who, in turn, fed the whole underground ecosystem

[Bullet06320]

resetting traps of the various hallastar's fetch spells solves the problem, a constant flow of new critters for the others to eat or be eaten by

[Darth Ultron]

Outsiders don't need to eat. So you can have more of them in the dungeon. And even better: Others can EAT outsiders.

The easy way is to just have a one way gate that opens and tosses outsider food in the dungeon. Fiendish Worms work great, but you can add an 'outsider' template to any animal.

[Goaty14]

Dragons keep droves of kobolds near their hoards for a reason, you know.

[Scowling Dragon]

Check out Dungeon Meshi. It goes into quite some interesting depth about this.

[drack]

There are deep-sea vents which support a lightless ecology, but they're relatively small and non-threatening.

There are spiders which evolved to survive in various caverns, but they survive by (a) being very small, and (b) by scavenging food that falls into the caverns.

So yeah, you practically need to impose magical nutrition at some point if you want an "ecology" to exist underground, particularly an ecology of big and dangerous and carnivorous dungeon monsters.

In addition to ambient magic, there's taint, which might serve as both the origin of the monstrous creature, and also its fallback source of nutrition. That could explain why a creature would never evolve beyond its mundane appetite for flesh: taint might amplify appetites, even as it provided enough sustenance to survive without. Permanent starvation would be a horrible existence.
We don't call it by that word. We call it "magical growth nutrients", that's the more PC term. Yes, they can also change you skin/hair/eye color to crazy neon nonsense and or fluorescence and sometimes even cause the growth of a second head. :smalltongue: Taint implies evil rather then ambient magical greatness.


Magically enhanced dire rabbits? or just normal rabbits? Ants?

if you're going for an ecology, you probably need some mundane real-world creatures to help keep it stable. and / or genetically / magically modified versions of them. Modified grass that grows on any surface and never stops spreading for example.

I think you can do it either way really...

you could make an underground forest, I don't remember where I read the concept but I recall reading about a ceiling of lava, separating the lava was some kind of clear crystal that could not be melt. The luminosity fueled an imense underground forest (with diffent collors, since the flore inside evolved to better absorb the infra red light) who, in turn, fed the whole underground ecosystem

Aye,m I had something similar on a lower floor, but that's some pretty cool fluff... :smallbiggrin:

resetting traps of the various hallastar's fetch spells solves the problem, a constant flow of new critters for the others to eat or be eaten by
Aye...that is a good way to make a meatatarian dungeon...

Outsiders don't need to eat. So you can have more of them in the dungeon. And even better: Others can EAT outsiders.

The easy way is to just have a one way gate that opens and tosses outsider food in the dungeon. Fiendish Worms work great, but you can add an 'outsider' template to any animal.

Unfortunately... outsiders have no material bodies... :smallfrown: That's their schtick. They're essentially souls that need to take on some new physical form when they come here, but on death the ectoplasm equivalent they used as a body breaks and they go back home without any real damage or anything. Not sure that that's really edible to non-scavenger types, and even if it were it'd be magically created anyways... and inefficiently at that...

[Darth Ultron]

Unfortunately... outsiders have no material bodies... :smallfrown: That's their schtick. They're essentially souls that need to take on some new physical form when they come here, but on death the ectoplasm equivalent they used as a body breaks and they go back home without any real damage or anything. Not sure that that's really edible to non-scavenger types, and even if it were it'd be magically created anyways... and inefficiently at that...

Are you talking about some custom homebrew here? In 3X and PF a lot of outsiders have physical material bodies. An Imp, for example, is a physical material creature. You can eat an imp. The rules have tons of examples of outsiders you can eat. Sure technically you could say an outsider is not food or nutritious, but the Rules never say that.

And the rules do stick mostly to 'combat monsters', but you can add, for example, 'weird worms' that are worms of the outsider type or any other animal or vermin....that can be eaten. There are plenty of templates that can turn an animal into an outsider.

[Jack_Simth]

An adventurer died with some blackberries in his hand. They were spoiled by the same thing that killed the adventurer, so nothing ate them.

However: The adventurer was wearing a ring of sustenance. The seeds in the blackberries were inside the ring long enough that they attuned to it, and sprouted. No light, but they're getting sustenance from the ring.

So now there's a giant blackberry vine, underground with no light. Cuttings or berries from the vine don't grow without light (they cease to be part of the same plant, and there's only the one ring in the mix), but the vine can be slowly "led" anywhere in the complex... provided it's left largely intact... and will produce berries and leaves that are edible enough.

Note: You can do this with any edible plant, really. When I first thought of this, I was looking at an apple.

[drack]

Are you talking about some custom homebrew here? In 3X and PF a lot of outsiders have physical material bodies. An Imp, for example, is a physical material creature. You can eat an imp. The rules have tons of examples of outsiders you can eat. Sure technically you could say an outsider is not food or nutritious, but the Rules never say that.

And the rules do stick mostly to 'combat monsters', but you can add, for example, 'weird worms' that are worms of the outsider type or any other animal or vermin....that can be eaten. There are plenty of templates that can turn an animal into an outsider.

It's possible that I'm thinking 3.0, but I thought it held for 3.5 too for some reason, though I know that line between material plane and other planes gets thinner and thinner with every edition, so I guess I could be wrong...

If I recall though...
Outsiders in 3.5 have body and soul as one unit.
Those slain on the material plane pop back to their own plane.
Those that die on their own plane stay dead and leave a corpse there, but the plane itself often isn't a material plane, so while it can be eaten, made into undeads, ect. there, it's not actually made of anything from the standpoint of our material plane dwellers.

Now, here's where it gets funky. In earlier editions, if I recall, there was not really matter there, if you went there, say through astral projection, your soul was there and interacting with everything physically since they're all made of souls which can touch souls just fine. Astral projection in D&D 3.x however will make you a new physical body in any plane you visit suggesting that these planes contain matter. What this leads towards is a big pool of ambiguity for your GM to interpret.

The immediate question "is there a corpse when I summon and kill an outsider" falls into this murky line. When they return do they reform there leaving a corpse behind, or since their soul and body are the same, and their soul returned and reformed, would their body/soul thing as a whole return there? I think it'd generally lean towards the latter, but some GMs might rule the former anyways. In 3.5 killing them on their plane and taking them back is also in the air, but I'd think it'd generally lean on the you can do it side since planes are now allot more material... :smallconfused:

Worth noting 3.5's alteration of allowing you to res outsiders brought us one step closer to everyone being the same, hence why I mention the edition thing at the top of this post.

[Fouredged Sword]

Summoned outsiders, andball summons infact, disapear when the spell ends.

CALLED outsiders are a more murky gamespace.

[johnbragg]

Maybe life just happens by magic? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_generation)

Which is not that far off from your ecosystems based on magma or ambient magic as energy sources. But in fantastical worlds, don't discount the possibility of flies or spider eggs or fungus or rats or aberrations just sort of popping into existence in places you'd expect them.

Maybe my goblins are actually fungoids, which just spawn rather than reproducing.

[drack]

Aye, and ones who wander in as astral travelers who walk through portals... makes sense. So much planer murkiness that only a GM can fix... :smalltongue:

I thought there was something about a number of them only being able to be killed for realsies on their home plane though... :smallconfused:

[Fouredged Sword]

Aye, and ones who wander in as astral travelers who walk through portals... makes sense. So much planer murkiness that only a GM can fix... :smalltongue:

I thought there was something about a number of them only being able to be killed for realsies on their home plane though... :smallconfused:

Maybe? The soul of an outsider returns to it's native plane. The lower planes needs souls for... Something. Mumble mumble souls become the base material of the plane. Mumble mumble Outsiders form from soulstuff or are made from specific mortal souls. Mumble mumble dead outsider souls can reform into soulstuff or reform the same outsider or a diffent outsider for reasons mumble mumble.

So killing a devil named Tim on the mortal plane may or may not leave physical remains. Tim may reform in Hell or maybe not. Hell is not any weaker for the loss of Tim because ether Tim returns to life somewhere in Hell or another devil get's his soul stuff or it just merges with Hell itself ans Hell is already infinite.

Now how this all plays out with the devil's physical body is anyone's guess. Outsider parts can be used as spell components, so they CAN leave physical parts of themselves behind. A non-magical rock from hell is at most a rock that has an aura of evil and law. You can take it to the prime material and conk someone over the head with it juat fine.

So... Huh. No idea how it all works. Maybe chant Red Fell until he sorts us all out?

[drack]

Maybe? The soul of an outsider returns to it's native plane. The lower planes needs souls for... Something. Mumble mumble souls become the base material of the plane. Mumble mumble Outsiders form from soulstuff or are made from specific mortal souls. Mumble mumble dead outsider souls can reform into soulstuff or reform the same outsider or a diffent outsider for reasons mumble mumble.


Eh, I figure if a level 9 spell can make them then planes aren't so super mystical... Heck there might even be a level 9 spell to slowly destroy them, like a reverse genesis. Big planes like those can probably even afford to stick casters on endless genesis duty if they wanna. So I tend to plot souls as fuel for divinity and the like, but aye, this is definitely the realm of GM's call... :smalltongue:

[Nifft]

Now how this all plays out with the devil's physical body is anyone's guess. Outsider parts can be used as spell components, so they CAN leave physical parts of themselves behind. A non-magical rock from hell is at most a rock that has an aura of evil and law. You can take it to the prime material and conk someone over the head with it juat fine. Yeah the fact that dead outsider body parts appear with standard market prices seems to indicate that dead outsiders do leave dead bodies with physical parts.


So... Huh. No idea how it all works. Maybe chant Red Fell until he sorts us all out? For planar oddities, I'd recommend chanting afroakuma.

Or posting in afroakuma's thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?527699-afroakuma-s-Planar-And-Other-Oddities-Questions-Thread-VII

[drack]

Yeah the fact that dead outsider body parts appear with standard market prices seems to indicate that dead outsiders do leave dead bodies with physical parts.

Aye, I had forgotten until four brought it up. Still, all the murkiness of taking solid things back from other planes could also explain this leaving it all murky in the end. :smalltongue:

[Xenopax]

This by any chance for our dungeon game drack? :smallsmile:

I would suggest shambling mounds in like a swampy part of the dungeon. They can technically live forever if they get enough electricity and they don't have the intelligence to get out of a deep enough hole so if the Goblins trapped it in one then theyd be fine (As long as they trim it)

Or you could have a few portals to the fey wild (Or whatever its called nowadays) with animals and ****e coming out of it.

If you are Ok with converting from 2e then you could use some of the Pool monsters from the Far Realm. Cant remember their name exactly but as long as there was a portal theyd be fine (They basically ate the Radiation from the portal). Pretty easy to eat as long as they were careful about killing all the spawn that mutated.

[finaldooms]

Maybe my goblins are actually fungoids, which just spawn rather than reproducing.

This brings to mind ORKS from warhammer 4k, vicious monsters that literally grow anywhere..because they reproduce via spores..the only way to completely remove them was to burn the bodies quickly after killing them.

Otherwise you kill a group think your safe..and a few days laterb ypu have 2x as many orks attacking you lol

[Darth Ultron]

Worth noting 3.5's alteration of allowing you to res outsiders brought us one step closer to everyone being the same, hence why I mention the edition thing at the top of this post.

I think your mixing too many things and editions.

In 3X the vast majority of Outsiders have real physical bodies.

In 3X any Outsider that travels to a plane or is called to another plane, has their dead body stay there if the die. Only summoned outsiders fade away when the spell duration ends.

There is no real murkiness here.

Arrowhawks and Hell hounds are two good examples of outsiders that can be used as food.

[Xenopax]

Pretty sure that most outsiders would be WAY too hard for a couple of low level dungeon monsters to kill and eat with a net profit in Energy Gained/Energy Lost. I mean even the really weak ones can pound for pound kill a goblin (Any other similar CR monster works). Lets take a Lemure (the Baatezu not the animal). It has DR 5 and 2 hit dice. A goblin has 1 HD and no special abilities. Lemures also usually come in massive hordes while Goblins come in smaller groups usually. If we use the Goblin Warrior provided by the SRD and the Lemure provided, then we can clearly see the winner. the Goblin has to roll max damage to even get 1 point of damage in, while (If we average damage on the Lemure) the lemure will kill the goblin in 2 rounds. and this is one of the Weakest outsiders, one that is FOOD for most of the others.

[Jack_Simth]

Pretty sure that most outsiders would be WAY too hard for a couple of low level dungeon monsters to kill and eat with a net profit in Energy Gained/Energy Lost. I mean even the really weak ones can pound for pound kill a goblin (Any other similar CR monster works). Lets take a Lemure (the Baatezu not the animal). It has DR 5 and 2 hit dice. A goblin has 1 HD and no special abilities. Lemures also usually come in massive hordes while Goblins come in smaller groups usually. If we use the Goblin Warrior provided by the SRD and the Lemure provided, then we can clearly see the winner. the Goblin has to roll max damage to even get 1 point of damage in, while (If we average damage on the Lemure) the lemure will kill the goblin in 2 rounds. and this is one of the Weakest outsiders, one that is FOOD for most of the others.

Given that this a planned ecology dungeon, that is not an insurmountable problem.

Suppose I have Lesser Planar Binding trap that goes off on a known schedule. It Calls a specific, weak outsider. Maybe a Vargouille (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vargouille.htm). I pair this with a direct damage trap. CL 10 Fireball, maybe, set to go off when the creature appears.

Vargouille appears, fireball goes off, roast Vargouille hits the floor. Note that even if the Vargouille makes the save AND that one in 60,466,176 chance that the fireball rolls minimum damage actually happens, the Vargouille is still at 0 HP. And it has no DR, Regeneration, or fast healing (which among other things means that a tribe of goblins with arrows stands a good chance of downing one).

Edit: Well, OK, if the fireball rolls 11 damage and the Vargouille makes the save, it is also at 0 HP there, too. So it's an 11 in 60,466,176 chance, or about one in 5,496,925. And it's still at 0 HP, and will be bleeding out if it takes even 1 point of damage... which it does if it tries to do more than take a move action.

[FreddyNoNose]

Dragons keep droves of kobolds near their hoards for a reason, you know.

That's right. What happens when PCs kill off one but not the other?!

[Darth Ultron]

Pretty sure that most outsiders would be WAY too hard for a couple of low level dungeon monsters to kill and eat with a net profit in Energy Gained/Energy Lost.

There are Weak Outsiders.

A Formian Worker can make a good meal, and they are 1/2 CR.

But also intelligent humanoids DO hunt, trap and kill creatures more powerful then they are.

But it's true a lot of outsider food is for the more powerful to eat...

[Fouredged Sword]

You can also have a more powerful creature eat the outsiders and the lesser creatures are scavengers, recyclers, of feed of those that are. Poop grows mold that can be eaten by animals or root plants that can be digested.

[Xenopax]

I found a spontaneously appearing food for goblins to eat. (http://www.lomion.de/cmm/larva.php)

A single one could feed a goblin for a day. Now imagine massive breeding pits full of them. The best part is that they need evil things to appear and thats one thing that no proper dungeon lacks.

[johnbragg]

I found a spontaneously appearing food for goblins to eat. (http://www.lomion.de/cmm/larva.php)

A single one could feed a goblin for a day. Now imagine massive breeding pits full of them. The best part is that they need evil things to appear and thats one thing that no proper dungeon lacks.

If the fluff isn't to your taste, size them down to Tiny (or further), and they're a monstrous version of the Aristotelian theory of Spontaneous Generation. I don't think having a slime pit in your caverns (or an ancient well in your dungeon ruin) filled with bubbling neon green goo and wriggling Tiny larvae breaks anyone's versimilitude. You could always tag the vat or pool as a portal to a Lower Plane if you like that better.

[Fouredged Sword]

Or the paraelemental plane of small defenseless food creatures.

[johnbragg]

If the fluff isn't to your taste, size them down to Tiny (or further), and they're a monstrous version of the Aristotelian theory of Spontaneous Generation. I don't think having a slime pit in your caverns (or an ancient well in your dungeon ruin) filled with bubbling neon green goo and wriggling Tiny larvae breaks anyone's versimilitude. You could always tag the vat or pool as a portal to a Lower Plane if you like that better.


Or the paraelemental plane of small defenseless food creatures.

Maybe not so defenseless if the greenskins can push you into the vat, though. Swarm template, anyone?

[Xenopax]

Sounds Painful.

I like the idea of an old goblin going fishing for Larva in a giant pool of abyss water, accompanied by his faithful warg and wearing a straw hat.

[Tvtyrant]

OK guys, give me a hand here. I think I might have to brew a monster at this rate, or maybe even a few.

Dungeons have their own ecology. It's a monster eats monster world and everyone's gotta eat. I'm a GM here and I've got a dungeon. I'm setting up my creatures, traps, ect, and they're all eating each other. Everything is dandy. ...but then I notice something. My monster numbers are dwindling. They're all dying out. Even the ones that will eat anything and reproduce in droves like goblins aren't finding a nice staple food source. I mean, sure, maybe there's a florescent moss or something, but that all got eaten five dungeon-generations ago. Please help save this poor DM from dungeon depletion before it's too late!

Is there any relatively weak, easy to raise monster with a high reproductive rate which doesn't need to eat to survive and grow, and/or can live off rocks found in dungeons? It's fine, the goblins will eat them even if they're plants... :smallfrown: Maybe even the occasional ooze or two, though such things should probably be eaten in moderation

Before you mention it, yes there's a spoon of sustenance or two in circulation, but lets face it, a dungeon so large as mine clearly needs more then just that to get by... :smallfrown:

Edit: accepting monsters form any edition, preferably 3.0, 3.5, or PF.

I have two explanations that have gone well.

1. There are methane steeps that are eaten by oozes/worms/fungi. These create a food chain, and the steeps work like geysers. Brief periods of incredible fecundity followed by a desert, making monsters move from vent to vent and making the dungeon/underdark very dangerous.

2. Psychic energy emitting crystals that permanently feed the creature that ingests them. Creatures like Beholders and purple worms require lots, a goblin might need 1. Everything is a predator, everything is prey.

In the latter case most civilizations don't ingest the crystals themselves, they feed them to regenerating livestock and live off of them. Dwarves, Drow and Goblins have worms or arthropods that they can hack chunks off of for food.

[Fouredged Sword]

You know, another consideration is air. Without light you don't have photosynthesis. Regardless of how much energy an environment has without photosynthesis there is nothing turning CO2 into O2. CO2 buildup would turn spaces into deadzones unless there was a wind moving through the tunnle system.

[thorr-kan]

A lot of cavern dwellers in the Forgotten Realms's Underdark use deepspawn.