Building to Not Miss Treasure

[BloodfeudKobold]

Long story short, all the parties I play with constantly miss treasure hoards in boss rooms and such due to everything from poor Search checks to impatience. So I'm trying to build a character I call "Avi the Efficient", who is built to do nothing but locate all treasure and be able to identify magical items on-site (or on sight; both are good).

So far I have him as an Elf Beguiler who uses Advanced Learning at level 3 to get Identify. I am going Beguiler assuming that we will be taking the place of the rouge (and therefore trapfinding will be helpful) but also because they have a good set of skills for this purpose (like Appraise, Open Lock, and even Use Magic Device). They get Reveal Secret Door and Knock naturally as well (with Elves getting the free Search check when passing w/in 5ft. of a secret door).

Now that I've got the basics, I'm still looking for any nice additions (primarily through feats or extra spells to get as wands, etc.). If anyone has any big recommendations that would allow him to be a living metal detector of some sort, that would also be nice. I am aiming to get him to Hoardstealer for their treasure locating ability, but that is flexible.

TLDR: I'm looking for good options to ensure we never miss a single gold coin again.

[flappeercraft]

A rod of Metal and Mineral Detection seems like a good choice, I would also reccomend taking an elf variant that gets higher Int bonus such as a Gray Elf for a higher Search Bonus.

[Fouredged Sword]

Permenancied arcane sight is what you want. Everything magic glows.

[BloodfeudKobold]

@flappeercraft: Those are both fantastic, thank you! Do you know if the rod has limited uses? It's expensive, but will be a good investment down the line.

@Fouredged Sword: That sounds amazing. I assume I could pay for an NPC to cast Perm. My only hesitation would be that I'd have to get him to level 7 for the second Advanced Learning in order to take Arcane Sight, but he'd qualify for Hoardstealer by level 5 (and thus take it for 6th). Any opinion on whether it'd be better to put off the PrC in order to get the Arcane Sight?

[Deadline]

Also, if starting at something other than level 1, consider an Artificer's Monocle (Magic Item Compendium, 1500gp). If you cast detect magic and have at least 5 ranks of Knowledge(Arcana), you can spend 1 minute studying an item to duplicate the effect of an Identify spell cast on it. Saves you tons of gp on pearls, and you don't have to pick up Identify as a spell.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

An artificer's monocle (MIC) allows you to use detect magic as identify.

While you're at it, if you want to use detect magic offensively, try using the locate city bomb approach, only instead of locate city, detect magic allows you to look at enemies to explodify them.

[BloodfeudKobold]

@Deadline: Hmm, that seems really useful for such a good price. Any suggestions for what to take at level 3 Advanced Learning instead of Identify? I'd hoped Arcane Sight, but it looks like that's too high to take at that point.

At that point, would it be more worth it to make a wizard with the needed spells and just force the party to have an actual rogue? I would almost do that, but I feel like it's less of a blow to have a janky non-rogue than a janky, non-DPS caster.

[Thurbane]

Treasure Scent spell (SC p.223): Bard 3, Sor/Wiz 4; maybe see if you can get it on an Eternal Wand?
Detect Metal and Minerals (RoF p.189): Sor/Wiz 3; maybe see if you can get it on an Eternal Wand?
Dragonkith 3 (Dr p.123): Detect Treasure (not great on a caster build)
Hoardstealer 4 (Dr p.130): Treasure Dowsing (not great on a caster build)
Dragon Shaman (Red) 3 (PHB2 p.11): Treasure Seeker (+5 on Search and Appraise checks) (not great on a caster build)

[BloodfeudKobold]

@Thurbane: I am really liking the Treasure Scent spell, though I wonder how often secret doors would be too thick for it to be helpful. Do you think it would be generally able to be usable?

Also, at that point, ought I just drop Beguiler altogether and make a Wizard? I liked that Beguiler was spontaneous and had a large per day, but their more limited spell list seems to be getting in the way.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How about taking Able Learner on a factotum (1 or 3) / convert spell-to-power erudite psion? Take all of the treasure-seeking spells you want, and use the Burrowing Power feat to push them through walls.

[BloodfeudKobold]

@MaxiDuRaritry: Well, I think my brain is leaking onto the floor as I read the Erudite's entry, but I am intrigued. Where is the spell-to-power thing you mentioned? Is it a feat?

[ShurikVch]

@Thurbane: I am really liking the Treasure Scent spell, though I wonder how often secret doors would be too thick for it to be helpful. Do you think it would be generally able to be usable?

Also, at that point, ought I just drop Beguiler altogether and make a Wizard? I liked that Beguiler was spontaneous and had a large per day, but their more limited spell list seems to be getting in the way.Well, since both Treasure Scent and Detect Metal and Minerals are Divination spells, you may get them via Advanced Learning of Unseen Seer... :smallwink:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

@MaxiDuRaritry: Well, I think my brain is leaking onto the floor as I read the Erudite's entry, but I am intrigued. Where is the spell-to-power thing you mentioned? Is it a feat?http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a (or http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Tghs5AK7HcQJ:archive.wizards.com/default.asp%3Fx%3Ddnd/psm/20070629a+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us if you can't get the above to load.)

Also, if you don't want factotum, how about changeling rogue? 10 skill points at 1st level and effective skill mastery with all social skills (for haggling better prices with merchants).

[flappeercraft]

@flappeercraft: Those are both fantastic, thank you! Do you know if the rod has limited uses? It's expensive, but will be a good investment down the line.

It's permanent. Also now that I think about it, there are some monsters that eat metal and valuables, like the common rust monster. You could have some Larvae Rust Monsters or similar to see if they pick up the scent of their food, or in this case, your treasure. A Simulacrum of a baby Rust Monster would probably do the trick. Assuming a 1HD, it would cost 6,010 GP to get a scroll of Simulacrum for such a creature, wouldn't be a bad investment.

[BloodfeudKobold]

@MaxiDuRaritry: Full confession, I have never played a psionic before and am not entirely sure I understand how they work. While it looks like a fantastically broken option, I think I'd be safer sticking to something more traditional. As for the factotum, I'm not so much worried about having enough skill points (since making him a Gray Elf allows him to have 20 INT at level one, I should have plenty of skill points) as I am about being able to get all of the spells I want.

@flappeercraft: The rust baby simulacrum sounds both effective and adorable, but wouldn't it immediately turn around upon being set down and try eating my party's gear? The spell makes it seem like the simulacrum is no more trainable than the real deal, so I would imagine it would be difficult to keep around.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

@flappeercraft: The rust baby simulacrum sounds both effective and adorable, but wouldn't it immediately turn around upon being set down and try eating my party's gear? The spell makes it seem like the simulacrum is no more trainable than the real deal, so I would imagine it would be difficult to keep around.I believe it's in the Arms & Equipment Guide where there's a cage on a pole where you can keep baby rust monsters to act as an at-will rusting grasp item. I'm sure you could use Handle Animal (with a -4 penalty) to train them to scent out metal for you.


@MaxiDuRaritry: Full confession, I have never played a psionic before and am not entirely sure I understand how they work. While it looks like a fantastically broken option, I think I'd be safer sticking to something more traditional. As for the factotum, I'm not so much worried about having enough skill points (since making him a Gray Elf allows him to have 20 INT at level one, I should have plenty of skill points) as I am about being able to get all of the spells I want.Psionics is quite fun, and (StP erudite aside) is widely considered a lot less ridunkulously powerful than magic...if only because there's not nearly as much of it.

I'd suggest learning the system. Mostly it's used a lot like magic, except it's a lot more granular. You spend power points from a pp pool instead of having to keep track of chunky spell slots.

Here, have a primer thread: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?88642-Could-someone-provide-a-quick-primer-on-how-D-amp-D-3-5-psionics-work

[Elder_Basilisk]

Don't forget detect secret doors. It's a great wand to double check and make sure you don't miss anything in the dungeon.

[SirNMN]

It's permanent. Also now that I think about it, there are some monsters that eat metal and valuables, like the common rust monster. You could have some Larvae Rust Monsters or similar to see if they pick up the scent of their food, or in this case, your treasure. A Simulacrum of a baby Rust Monster would probably do the trick. Assuming a 1HD, it would cost 6,010 GP to get a scroll of Simulacrum for such a creature, wouldn't be a bad investment.

The challenge/risk with that is making sure it doesn't go after the party or eat your loot

[Fizban]

For starters, it's the DM's job to make sure the party is getting sufficient treasure, as in appropriate magic items, to continue the game. If the DM is hiding loot in places where the party won't find it, the DM is actually the one who's wrong (unless they're explicitly running a hardcore status-quo only game where everyone's agreed treasure should be missable).

Second, there's no reason "impatience" should ever stop you from finding things, at least on the player side. You declare you're searching everything, the DM rolls a search check for each thing there is to find and tells you if you find them, or you take 20. However, searching does take time in-game, and it builds up quickly: one full round per 5' cube, or two minute per 5' cube if you're taking 20.

There are two spells reprinted in Spell Compendium that speed up search checks, both 1st level: Instant Search lets you make a check as a swift action, and Spontaneous Search lets you take 10 across a 20' radius in a single round.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I like using a Burrowing Power touchsight. Auto-search for traps and secret doors in a 60' radius, ignoring most obstacles if you have a decent Psicraft check, and you don't even need to slow down for it or have ranks in the Search skill. Even better, it also helps you ferret out hiding/invisible enemies, as it auto-Spots anything that isn't incorporeal.

[BloodfeudKobold]

@MaxiDuRaritry: That cage on a pole sounds really handy. I'll take a look, thanks!

@Fizban: Well, they're using pre-mades, so it's not like they're trying to make it super hard to find, I guess that's just how it's written. And as for Search checks, they don't roll them like that. If we want to search, we have to make a Search check for each 5ft square we want to check individually. *shrugs* I agree they could speed it up on their end, but I guess that just isn't how they do it. Those two spells do sound kinda handy, though, or at least the second one. I'll definitely take a look at it.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

@MaxiDuRaritry: That cage on a pole sounds really handy. I'll take a look, thanks!De nada.


@Fizban: Well, they're using pre-mades, so it's not like they're trying to make it super hard to find, I guess that's just how it's written. And as for Search checks, they don't roll them like that. If we want to search, we have to make a Search check for each 5ft square we want to check individually. *shrugs* I agree they could speed it up on their end, but I guess that just isn't how they do it. Those two spells do sound kinda handy, though, or at least the second one. I'll definitely take a look at it.Just take 10. The DM compares your Search check with the DC of every single secret door, trap, or other notable feature around and tells you when/if you find one. Doesn't take any extra time, and if you've got some good bonuses to your Search checks, you should be fine. It's easy to boost skill checks, after all.

I'm a fan of taking 10 whenever possible.

[Seharvepernfan]

Elixir of vision and goggles of minute seeing. Something to give you stonecunning (like belt of dwarvenkind). You've got detect magic as a beguiler. Knowledge Arch & Eng for the synergy bonus.

Honestly you're going to be fine.

[Goaty14]

Locate Object: Coin

Locate Object tells you all instances of the item and similar within its range. Don't use it too much because the DM might use wooden coins, and that sucks :smallfrown:

[Fizban]

@Fizban: Well, they're using pre-mades, so it's not like they're trying to make it super hard to find, I guess that's just how it's written. And as for Search checks, they don't roll them like that. If we want to search, we have to make a Search check for each 5ft square we want to check individually. *shrugs* I agree they could speed it up on their end, but I guess that just isn't how they do it. Those two spells do sound kinda handy, though, or at least the second one. I'll definitely take a look at it.
Does the Search skill stipulate that it takes a full round action to search a 5' cube? Yes. Does it say that the player must declare and roll every 5' cube individually? No. Your DM is being pretty disgustingly obstructionist as far as I'm concerned, and they're doing it while running modules that were not designed to be run that way.

Tordek: Let's give these upper ruins one more look.
DM: [Making some rolls in secret, but knowing there's nothing to find in the burned-out shell of the monastery.] You don't find anything, what are you going to do now?
. . .
Tordek: I look at the ceiling and floor for any more nasty surprises.
Mialee: I'll look in the barrels and buckets.
DM: Tordek and Mialee, make search checks. . . There's nothing alarming about the ceiling or floor, and the buckets are empty.
. . .
Melee: I bet there's a secret door here, let's check the south wall.
The first one in particular makes it abundantly clear that the DM is expected to abstract out rolls for expediency, while the later examples include plenty of the DM rolling either partially or entirely secretly.

[Troacctid]

Stone Tell allows you to ask the dungeon itself if there's any treasure in it.

Ring of X-Ray Vision would be a good pickup. The Earth Dreamer prestige class also has a feature to see through earth and stone, as well as a Divination ability that could allow you to ask about missed treasure.

[Eldariel]

Just play a Gray Elf Wizard. This allows casting Arcane Sight on level 5 and Permanency on level 9 or Scrolled on level 5. Enter Unseen Seer [Complete Mage] without the Sneak Attack dice to also get Search in class.


The first one in particular makes it abundantly clear that the DM is expected to abstract out rolls for expediency, while the later examples include plenty of the DM rolling either partially or entirely secretly.

Generally you should just be taking 10 or 20 depending on how much time you want to expend completely removing the need for rolling anyways.

[Fizban]

With how so many people expect to blitz through a dungeon with 1 min/level spells active the whole time, taking 20 really isn't that feasible, and personally I'd say that Searching is the kind of thing that you shouldn't really be able to take 10 reliably on. If you're concerned about time at all then you could miss things, but even moving quickly you could stumble onto it. I just don't see how take 10 makes sense for Search without say, magic enforcing it. Further, the main instance of things that are really supposed to have search checks is traps, and as threat of harm they should never be take 10'd through.

Making say, 5 random rolls would give you a high enough chance to beat 10 that taking 5x as long would be pretty solid lock (for 1/4 of a take 20), but tossing a fistful of d20's means you'll probably get to reap a higher roll. This does not take a significant amount of time unless you're trying to play with a single d20 (you can throw the dice before the player is even done talking and have them ready), though of course plenty of people do try to play with a single d20, and sure not-rolling is faster, obviously. You still auto-succeed on the first try of anything you can do on a 1 anyway.

[Fouredged Sword]

As a Dm I allow a party member to declare "we move forward slowly, searching as we go."

For any space without a risk of harm I compare their search roll taking 10 to the DC. For all spaces WITH a risk of harm I roll behind the DM screen.

And yes, minute per level buffs generally wear off befire the next fight that way. Cost of caution.

[Eldariel]

With how so many people expect to blitz through a dungeon with 1 min/level spells active the whole time, taking 20 really isn't that feasible, and personally I'd say that Searching is the kind of thing that you shouldn't really be able to take 10 reliably on. If you're concerned about time at all then you could miss things, but even moving quickly you could stumble onto it. I just don't see how take 10 makes sense for Search without say, magic enforcing it. Further, the main instance of things that are really supposed to have search checks is traps, and as threat of harm they should never be take 10'd through.

Making say, 5 random rolls would give you a high enough chance to beat 10 that taking 5x as long would be pretty solid lock (for 1/4 of a take 20), but tossing a fistful of d20's means you'll probably get to reap a higher roll. This does not take a significant amount of time unless you're trying to play with a single d20 (you can throw the dice before the player is even done talking and have them ready), though of course plenty of people do try to play with a single d20, and sure not-rolling is faster, obviously. You still auto-succeed on the first try of anything you can do on a 1 anyway.

The way I run it, I allow players to take 10 but roll some dice secretly anyways and if something happened where they couldn't have taken 10 (e.g. they're searching something containing a trap), I substitute the roll and check the result. This gets the best of both worlds; expediency and efficiency. Really, unless threatened, there's no reason the characters couldn't take 10 on Search in any square that's not dangerous. PHB has the example of rolling once for the whole area you're searching, which is also fine, but I find "take 10 if you don't know you can't" reasonable. Take 20 is something you do after clearing the dungeon and coming back for treasure.

[BloodfeudKobold]

To those discussing how our DM handles Search checks: I don’t disagree with your valuations. In fact, I am with you guys on this. But arguing with our DMs, one of whom has been running this way for 10+ years, does not seem like a good option to me. I do appreciate the input, but I am trying to work within our DMs’ constraints, not overthrow them.


Stone Tell allows you to ask the dungeon itself if there's any treasure in it.

Ring of X-Ray Vision would be a good pickup. The Earth Dreamer prestige class also has a feature to see through earth and stone, as well as a Divination ability that could allow you to ask about missed treasure.

These sounds godly. I will definitely be taking a look at that PrC. Sounds way more useful than Hoardstealer but equally fun. Thanks!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

To those discussing how our DM handles Search checks: I don’t disagree with your valuations. In fact, I am with you guys on this. But arguing with our DMs, one of whom has been running this way for 10+ years, does not seem like a good option to me. I do appreciate the input, but I am trying to work within our DMs’ constraints, not overthrow them.Just talk to them, and if they refuse to streamline the process, start conscripting commoners to rove ahead of your party to clear traps out of the way, or just refuse to enter any place likely to have traps. They try to push you into adventures, but if you refuse to go anywhere there might be traps, then the DMs either might as well not even bother adding traps to their adventures, or they waste all of their prep time on adventures you refuse to participate in.

[BloodfeudKobold]

Just talk to them, and if they refuse to streamline the process, start conscripting commoners to rove ahead of your party to clear traps out of the way, or just refuse to enter any place likely to have traps. They try to push you into adventures, but if you refuse to go anywhere there might be traps, then the DMs either might as well not even bother adding traps to their adventures, or they waste all of their prep time on adventures you refuse to participate in.

Again, it isn’t really about the traps as much as it is the treasure. I don’t think we’ve had a death to a trap yet, and our rogues do usually manage to get the traps fine. This was more an exercise to make a human (well, gray elf, at this point) metal detector who could scan for secret doors and treasure deposits as best as possible.

But don’t think we haven’t talked to them before. My attempting to put this build together at all is a result of my frustration with their rigidity in this matter. Still, I am having fun putting this build together with evryone’s suggesiotns and I think it will be fun to play.

What you’re suggesting is essentially holding the adventure hostage until the DM caves, and while I agree their decision to run searches this way is unreasonable, I’m not there to start a fight; I’m there to have fun with my friends. I just wanted to take “human treasure detector” to its logical conclusion.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Ah. Still, they're going out of their way to ruin the fun of playing a whole subset of classes in the game.

Regardless, again, I'd suggest you turn your treasure-hunting prowess into offensive measures. Turning permanencied detect magic into a locate city bomb (using the former spell instead of the latter) would be fun, I'd think.

"Eat explosive magic-vision, you cubic gelatinous bastard!"

[ShurikVch]

Avarice domain (Dragon #323) granted power:
Once per day, as a standard action, you may determine the most valuable item within 30 feet. An item's value is determined by its listed gold-piece value. If you cannot see the most valuable item within range, you become aware of its general location (within 5 feet), but you gain no insight into what the item is. This ability does not tell you the gold piece value of an item.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

A Warlock with an Artificer's Monocle can cast Identify at will!

A dwarf's stonecunning or an elf's ability to detect secret doors is quite useful here (duh). Any ways to get that kind of ability would be great for you. And I think that their Paragon classes improve those abilities?

Permanencied Arcane Sight or Detect Magic is fantastic, as is stuff like Detect Secret Doors.

A DMMM cleric can Persist that spell that allows to find stuff like a Rogue, and then be a useful PC on the side (because being too specialised in finding treasure is good, but having no combat utility is bad unless you're playing a social-focused Beguiler or one of those crazily good scout/stealth-focused Warlocks who don't hit hard but are insanely hard to find or target).

[Elkad]

With how so many people expect to blitz through a dungeon with 1 min/level spells active the whole time, taking 20 really isn't that feasible...

You do your searching after the badguys are dead. (Unless the DM has a thing for dungeons that collapse 3 minutes after the boss-magic propping it up fails.)
Doesn't everyone spend the night sleeping in the Boss-mobs bed, so they can memorize mostly search spells, and carefully disassemble the whole place the next day?
All those rusty goblin weapons aren't going to carry themselves back to town.


Avarice domain (Dragon #323) granted power:

Fairly rare for that to detect something other than your own hat, or some other "75% of my wealth" item on someone else in the party.

[Fizban]

To those discussing how our DM handles Search checks: I don’t disagree with your valuations. In fact, I am with you guys on this. But arguing with our DMs, one of whom has been running this way for 10+ years, does not seem like a good option to me. I do appreciate the input, but I am trying to work within our DMs’ constraints, not overthrow them.
I say again that the modules they're running are not meant to be run that way, and it's the DM's job to make sure you're getting enough appropriate magic items, period. If the party is losing treasure and falling behind WBL, the DM needs to fix it. If they refuse to do so, then you refuse to go anywhere until you've searched every 5' cube of the place individually to find the loot they're deliberately keeping hidden from you by making it a giant pain in the rear to search. Make them actually live with their poor ruling until they fix it since apparently no one has challenged them on it. And when they make a fuss, tell them all they have to do is stop running it that way or stop hiding the treasure.

Normally I'm not one to seriously recommend "teaching the DM a lesson," but this is one of the simplest lessons they should have learned years ago, and isn't grounded in any superiority complexes. They're deliberately running the game in a way that is harming your fun, obstructing search flow in a way which is not endorsed by the DMG or any other example I've ever heard of. They've changed the rules and aren't taking responsibility for doing so.

The fact that you're basically opened a char-op thread in order to counter the DM's nerfing of the Search skill says it all. The DM is one person, the players are four people, the DM does not get to make bad rulings just because they're the DM. They should have been overruled ages ago.
. . .

Back to the actual op, another thing you'll probably want is water gear. IIRC it's fairly common to stick a bag or chest of loot in almost every pool of water big enough to hide a monster, sometimes even when there's no monster. The Rod of Escape is the cheapest underwater countermeasure there is, enough to just barely cover the whole party for a piddly 3,500gp (1/day of course), plus bonus functions.


You do your searching after the badguys are dead. (Unless the DM has a thing for dungeons that collapse 3 minutes after the boss-magic propping it up fails.)
Then you get to eat some traps to the face from not searching and all is well.

[Zaq]

Binding Andromalius gives you the ability to locate items at will. Gives you a few other goodies as well, but that’s what’s relevant for this discussion. Costs five levels or three levels and a feat.

[tiercel]

I’m going to second the Spontaneous Search spell (SpC; it’s only first level, and not CL dependent, so get a full wand and even just UMD if need be).

If part of your problem is party impatience, this lets you search a respectable volume all in one go, and with no die rolling.

If part of your problem is the DM insisting on rolls for every 5’ volume, then you can just point at the spell. (If your DM bans the spell because You Must Roll, then your treasure-finding problem isn’t one any build will solve; you have DM issues.)

And if you can get both issues above to gently bend to your will, it’s still a useful spell/wand because there will be times when you need to Search vs a genuine ticking-clock scenario that’s not just PC impatience, or when you want to Search for treasure and/or traps without having to go over and touch dubious dungeon dressing, or when you even want/need to search higher up the walls or the ceiling and don’t want to burn resources to climb/levitate/fly constantly.

Also? Full wand is 750gp. Sure, it’s (eventually) expendable but 1) it should pay for itself 2) there’s a good argument to be made that it/its replacements should be bought out of party treasure before any split, since its whole purpose is to generate more party treasure (with a side order of trapfinding) and 3) it’s a lot more financially feasible to get, much less spam, than some of the blingier bling on this thread. (At some point you don’t want to be devoting so much money to your treasure-finding abilities that you can’t turn a profit, or so much of your build resources to SearchSearchSearch that you can’t help Kill Bad Guys And Take Their Stuff.)

[ShurikVch]

Fairly rare for that to detect something other than your own hat, or some other "75% of my wealth" item on someone else in the party.Then remove your valuables and step away from the party.

Really, the much worse limitations are the range and 1/day

But this power may detect some valuable things which aren't magical and not made of metal or minerals - such as masterwork painting, ivory figurine, or costly spices. Also, it's (arguably) isn't limited by doors, walls, or ground (buried treasures! :smallwink:)