How to Build a Non-Magical Alchemist?

[Biffwit]

I have been toying with the idea of a sapper or alchemist character. I have looked through my options and don't want to play a wizard or artificer. I'm instead interested in playing a mundane alchemist, who relies on science rather than magic.

My understanding is that this would rely primarily on acid and alchemists fire created through proficiency with alchemist's tools. What I'm trying to figure out is:

1) which class would work best with the vial-lobbing combat style, and

2) what other options might be available through alchemist's tools, or what other tools I should invest in, and

3) the best way of gaining proficiency with said tools.

[Blood of Gaea]

Thief Rogue, use a background or the Prodigy feat to acquire proficiency. Invest in any items you can use with Fast Hands, which is a pretty large amount.

You'll need cooperation from your DM to do this concept, so make sure to discuss this with them.

[Nifft]

Get proficiency with an Herbalist's Kit so you can make healing potions. The background Hermit gives you proficiency.

Consider taking the Healer feat so you can apply non-magical healing to people.

With sufficient refluffing, you could use the Ritual Caster feat (then claim it's not magical, it's just alchemy which duplicates a common effect that magic can also produce).


In terms of class, how about a Rogue with Expertise in knowledge stuff (e.g. Arcana, Medicine).

"Why yes, I do know more about spells than the nearby Wizard. You see I'm an academic, and she's a mere pyrotechnician."

[PhoenixPhyre]

I actually made a "mad-scientist" class that I'd like some playtesting on...:smallsmile:

It's not entirely non-magical (it goes well beyond the natural), but it's not a spell-caster at all. It relies heavily on alchemical concoctions (bombs, elixirs, etc) for it's active abilities.

The google doc is here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eNH1DpxdNWDSXCmGlJ7Ks-4WD2dOQrj43mv1Ftba-pU/edit?usp=sharing) if you're interested.

[Vogie]

I could see a refluffing of the School of the Artificer Wizard (UA), replacing the mystical aspects for scientific ones. All ranged spells refluffed as Ranged attacks, and treated as such universally. Infuse potions can be scientific/alchemical creation of potions, while Infuse Scrolls is the preemptive creation of explosives.

I would go bouncing between Fighter and Wizard, eventually getting to Fighter 2 / Artificer Wizard X. Theoretically You could do the same with a slightly altered Eldritch Knight. You can use the Scout archetype (UA) to gain additional proficiencies.

Fighter levels give the archery fighting style, giving you +2 to hit with your thrown attacks, which would now be your "not-spells". Instead of having dexterity saving throws, you just have to hit the target as a thrown attack.

Acid Splash is an thrown vial of acid instead of a bubble of acid, Burning hands is throwing smaller fire bombs, Fireball is now more akin to a mortar. Flame Arrows are now napalm tipped mundane weapons. Because you're not going to have the *MAGIC* spells, you may be able to cherry pick from other spell lists for better selection (Lightning arrow, for example, could be a tazer-esque device).

It'd be a bit messy and require some DM fiat, but it could certainly work.

[Asmotherion]

Know a lot about chemistry, Botanology, Herbs, Plants, Minerals and their Properties. I am talking about you, as a Player, not your Character.

Make sure your DM is at least Half Competent in those domains, or at least willing to check what you describe.

From that point on, you need a High Int and Wis in order to get the appropriate skills.

Wile magic is not necessary, it sure does help in aquireing the components you need to create what you want. A simple Prestidigitation can create a mundane flask, that you could use to exploit for a make-shift molotove coctail. Just saying. Rarer substances can also be replicated more easyly through the Conjurer Wizard's Specialisation.

Overall, it's not that magic is absolutelly a must for an Alchemist, it's just that, even if you choose to go that path, a Caster has an advantage over a Non-Caster, since the lore implies that, if you were an Alchemist in a World were Magic was part of Everyday Life, you would obviously be a Caster. I don't really disagree with that reasoning either.

The only non-caster I can imagin toying with Alchemy is a Rogue and his Poisons; Even then, he'd more probably either be an Arcane Trickster, or Assasin with Magic Initiate, or Ritual Caster. Manipulating a poison from a distance adds to the versality of a real Poison Master, and they wouldn't want to pass the oportunity (so either Mage Hand, or Unvisible Servant).

[Biffwit]

Thief Rogue, use a background or the Prodigy feat to acquire proficiency. Invest in any items you can use with Fast Hands, which is a pretty large amount.

You'll need cooperation from your DM to do this concept, so make sure to discuss this with them.

This is an excellent idea. I will need to look into the Rogue more, as I am not familiar with its ins and outs. I will do that shortly.


Get proficiency with an Herbalist's Kit so you can make healing potions. The background Hermit gives you proficiency.

Consider taking the Healer feat so you can apply non-magical healing to people.

With sufficient refluffing, you could use the Ritual Caster feat (then claim it's not magical, it's just alchemy which duplicates a common effect that magic can also produce).


In terms of class, how about a Rogue with Expertise in knowledge stuff (e.g. Arcana, Medicine).

"Why yes, I do know more about spells than the nearby Wizard. You see I'm an academic, and she's a mere pyrotechnician."

I am 100% going to steal that quote. I have been thinking of going human and taking Healer as the first level feat.


I actually made a "mad-scientist" class that I'd like some playtesting on...:smallsmile:

It's not entirely non-magical (it goes well beyond the natural), but it's not a spell-caster at all. It relies heavily on alchemical concoctions (bombs, elixirs, etc) for it's active abilities.

The google doc is here if you're interested.

I am not sure if my DM will allow homebrew. I will need to look into it.


I could see a refluffing of the School of the Artificer Wizard (UA), replacing the mystical aspects for scientific ones. All ranged spells refluffed as Ranged attacks, and treated as such universally. Infuse potions can be scientific/alchemical creation of potions, while Infuse Scrolls is the preemptive creation of explosives.

I would go bouncing between Fighter and Wizard, eventually getting to Fighter 2 / Artificer Wizard X. Theoretically You could do the same with a slightly altered Eldritch Knight. You can use the Scout archetype (UA) to gain additional proficiencies.

Fighter levels give the archery fighting style, giving you +2 to hit with your thrown attacks, which would now be your "not-spells". Instead of having dexterity saving throws, you just have to hit the target as a thrown attack.

Acid Splash is an thrown vial of acid instead of a bubble of acid, Burning hands is throwing smaller fire bombs, Fireball is now more akin to a mortar. Flame Arrows are now napalm tipped mundane weapons. Because you're not going to have the *MAGIC* spells, you may be able to cherry pick from other spell lists for better selection (Lightning arrow, for example, could be a tazer-esque device).

It'd be a bit messy and require some DM fiat, but it could certainly work.

I had been looking at doing something like this previously, but I am married to the idea of a no magic approach.


Know a lot about chemistry, Botanology, Herbs, Plants, Minerals and their Properties. I am talking about you, as a Player, not your Character.

Make sure your DM is at least Half Competent in those domains, or at least willing to check what you describe.

From that point on, you need a High Int and Wis in order to get the appropriate skills.

Wile magic is not necessary, it sure does help in aquireing the components you need to create what you want. A simple Prestidigitation can create a mundane flask, that you could use to exploit for a make-shift molotove coctail. Just saying. Rarer substances can also be replicated more easyly through the Conjurer Wizard's Specialisation.

Overall, it's not that magic is absolutelly a must for an Alchemist, it's just that, even if you choose to go that path, a Caster has an advantage over a Non-Caster, since the lore implies that, if you were an Alchemist in a World were Magic was part of Everyday Life, you would obviously be a Caster. I don't really disagree with that reasoning either.

The only non-caster I can imagin toying with Alchemy is a Rogue and his Poisons; Even then, he'd more probably either be an Arcane Trickster, or Assasin with Magic Initiate, or Ritual Caster. Manipulating a poison from a distance adds to the versality of a real Poison Master, and they wouldn't want to pass the oportunity (so either Mage Hand, or Unvisible Servant).

This is good advice. I will admit to knowing very little of the natural sciences and will need to brush up before I play such a character.

[Blood of Gaea]

Just as an example build to give you an idea of what I was thinking:

Background: Hermit

Race: VHuman.

Str: 8 or 10.
Dex: 15+1.
Con: 12 or 14.
Int: 13+1
Wis: 12 or 14
Cha: 8 or 10.

1st level feat: Prodigy.
4th level feat: Healer.

So you end up with: Three languages, ten proficiencies (several are tools, including herbalism), and three expertise (five at level 6), along with a solid healing ability. Mastermind, Inquisitive, and Thief should all work pretty well with this, and Inquisitive would give you disguise, forgery, and another two languages, if that floats your boat.

From there it's just figuring out with your GM what you can craft and how you can use it.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I am not sure if my DM will allow homebrew. I will need to look into it.

This is good advice. I will admit to knowing very little of the natural sciences and will need to brush up before I play such a character.

I'll admit that I wasn't particularly serious there. More that I feel bad that I'll never get that class playtested because I'm always the DM.

As for the sciences--

remember that magic =/= science. There's no guaranteed that atoms even exist or that chemistry works as it does in reality. In fact, it almost certainly doesn't. So don't worry about it too much. Come up with thematic and fun combinations over scientifically-accurate combinations.

[Xihirli]

I made a low-magic character like this. She had a few racial magical abilities and Magic Initiate: Warlock but that was all.
My custom background gave me two tool proficiencies and no languages, and I took Battlemaster for another tool proficiency at 3rd level: herbalist, alchemists, and Poisoner’s kit.
What really made it work was my DM allowing me to track down recipes for new potions as we travelled, either from other potion makers or from experimentation (skill check involved there).

I guess people have already said “ask your DM” a lot but I’d really recommend that. Ask them if they have any home brew rules for making potions and, if they don’t, suggest some that you like.

[Asmotherion]

This is good advice. I will admit to knowing very little of the natural sciences and will need to brush up before I play such a character.

I used to play in a Low power campain, (Levels 1-3) as a Caster. Wile it is directly opposed to what you are looking for (non-caster), we were using the long rest=7days variant, so I used this to my advantage as a means for creativity. Here is some feedback:

-Bees and Wasps cannot fly directly upwards. You can put a small amount of honey into a bottle, and leave the cap oppen, to gather them inside. Then, close the cap. You have a good first ingredient for a poison.
-Determining the right antitoxin for a poison requires you to sample the poison (from the wound). You first need to attach the wound, so that the poison does not spread. Try to remove as much as you can by pressing the Wound. Then, you need to determin if the poison is accidic or basic. You can do that, by seeing how it reacts to different substances. Based of that knowlage, you try to make an antidote, if it's not already too late.
-Mushrooms can have a lot of effects. Have a look at their names and effects, and together with profficiency in Nature and Survival, you can tell your DM what you are looking for, and were you're looking for it.
-A bottle of pure alkohol can very well be your early Alchemist's Fire... Have you tryed to put out flamming alcohol? Easyer said than done...
-I won't post the recipie, but gunpowder is a non-magical substance that was developed by non-magical alchemists in China. This can give you all the fire power you need.


I'll admit that I wasn't particularly serious there. More that I feel bad that I'll never get that class playtested because I'm always the DM.

As for the sciences--

remember that magic =/= science. There's no guaranteed that atoms even exist or that chemistry works as it does in reality. In fact, it almost certainly doesn't. So don't worry about it too much. Come up with thematic and fun combinations over scientifically-accurate combinations.

Depends from DM to DM I suppose. But I'm all for supporting using your Out of Game knowlage in game (As long as it's not an abuse).

Natural Effect Damage caps at 20d6 either way (which is what I would rule a non-magical explosion quallifies as), and this size of an explosion would be unfeasable untill a reasonable level (probably 17), so it's not like they are breaking the game; they are just adding versality to their character's abilities.

[Biffwit]

Just as an example build to give you an idea of what I was thinking:

Background: Hermit

Race: VHuman.

Str: 8 or 10.
Dex: 15+1.
Con: 12 or 14.
Int: 13+1
Wis: 12 or 14
Cha: 8 or 10.

1st level feat: Prodigy.
4th level feat: Healer.

So you end up with: Three languages, ten proficiencies (several are tools, including herbalism), and three expertise (five at level 6), along with a solid healing ability. Mastermind, Inquisitive, and Thief should all work pretty well with this, and Inquisitive would give you disguise, forgery, and another two languages, if that floats your boat.

From there it's just figuring out with your GM what you can craft and how you can use it.

I'm considering a build like this, but I'm leaning more heavily towards fighter. My group has agreed that drawing and attacking with a weapon is all encompassed in the 'Attack' action. This would allow me to grab a bottle of acid/alchemist's fire and throw it, all with my attack action. With that in mind I'm looking towards making a fighter with Healer as their first level feat.


I made a low-magic character like this. She had a few racial magical abilities and Magic Initiate: Warlock but that was all.
My custom background gave me two tool proficiencies and no languages, and I took Battlemaster for another tool proficiency at 3rd level: herbalist, alchemists, and Poisoner’s kit.
What really made it work was my DM allowing me to track down recipes for new potions as we travelled, either from other potion makers or from experimentation (skill check involved there).

I guess people have already said “ask your DM” a lot but I’d really recommend that. Ask them if they have any home brew rules for making potions and, if they don’t, suggest some that you like.

I'm looking at Battlemaster for this exact reason. It also fits my tactician idea. Battlemaster gives a lot of opportunities for support.


I used to play in a Low power campain, (Levels 1-3) as a Caster. Wile it is directly opposed to what you are looking for (non-caster), we were using the long rest=7days variant, so I used this to my advantage as a means for creativity. Here is some feedback:

-Bees and Wasps cannot fly directly upwards. You can put a small amount of honey into a bottle, and leave the cap oppen, to gather them inside. Then, close the cap. You have a good first ingredient for a poison.
-Determining the right antitoxin for a poison requires you to sample the poison (from the wound). You first need to attach the wound, so that the poison does not spread. Try to remove as much as you can by pressing the Wound. Then, you need to determin if the poison is accidic or basic. You can do that, by seeing how it reacts to different substances. Based of that knowlage, you try to make an antidote, if it's not already too late.
-Mushrooms can have a lot of effects. Have a look at their names and effects, and together with profficiency in Nature and Survival, you can tell your DM what you are looking for, and were you're looking for it.
-A bottle of pure alkohol can very well be your early Alchemist's Fire... Have you tryed to put out flamming alcohol? Easyer said than done...
-I won't post the recipie, but gunpowder is a non-magical substance that was developed by non-magical alchemists in China. This can give you all the fire power you need.

I'm currently looking at some of the explosives in the DMG. I'll need to see which tools would be needed to craft them and see if my DM will allow me to make them.

[Blood of Gaea]

I'm considering a build like this, but I'm leaning more heavily towards fighter. My group has agreed that drawing and attacking with a weapon is all encompassed in the 'Attack' action. This would allow me to grab a bottle of acid/alchemist's fire and throw it, all with my attack action. With that in mind I'm looking towards making a fighter with Healer as their first level feat.



I'm looking at Battlemaster for this exact reason. It also fits my tactician idea. Battlemaster gives a lot of opportunities for support.
Ah, I think I see, your idea is to make a ranged weapon attack with a potion, then use Maneuvers to enhance the attack? That would work pretty well.

That said, you'll have your work cut out for you figuring a way to stock up a ton of potions to throw with extra attack.

And on a side note, the Tavern Brawler feat would allow you to add proficiency to your ranged weapon attacks with the thrown vial. And make sure Dex is your offensive stat, so that can also be added to the throw.

[Biffwit]

Ah, I think I see, your idea is to make a ranged weapon attack with a potion, then use Maneuvers to enhance the attack? That would work pretty well.

That said, you'll have your work cut out for you figuring a way to stock up a ton of potions to throw with extra attack.

And on a side note, the Tavern Brawler feat would allow you to add proficiency to your ranged weapon attacks with the thrown vial. And make sure Dex is your offensive stat, so that can also be added to the throw.

So, I don't think I could chuck potions/acid with my off-hand for two-weapon fighting. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I;ll be feat starved for sure. I'm looking at Healer with Vuman, but Tavern Brawler will help with my potion attacks. That means I'll likely need to give up my level for ASI. I was looking at the archery combat style, to mitigate the potion throwing at lower levels, but I'm not sure that's a good investment if I'll be taking Tavern Brawler.

I don't think I can use maneuvers with the potions throwing. Most of them require a melee attack. Once again, if I'm wrong, please correct me.

What I'm seeing is throwing acid/alchemist's fire in the first round of combat. Switching to shield and shortsword/scimitar afterwards to use maneuvers. If Crossbow Expert is something I can invest in, then maybe stick with the archery combat style and see if I can throw a vial and still attack with my off-hand with the crossbow (can you do that? Your hand would be free after throwing to load/draw ammunition), or maybe just do crossbow and shield for when ranged attacks are necessary (once again, can you do that? Would a shield stop you from being able to reload?).

[Blood of Gaea]

So, I don't think I could chuck potions/acid with my off-hand for two-weapon fighting. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I;ll be feat starved for sure. I'm looking at Healer with Vuman, but Tavern Brawler will help with my potion attacks. That means I'll likely need to give up my level for ASI. I was looking at the archery combat style, to mitigate the potion throwing at lower levels, but I'm not sure that's a good investment if I'll be taking Tavern Brawler.

I don't think I can use maneuvers with the potions throwing. Most of them require a melee attack. Once again, if I'm wrong, please correct me.

What I'm seeing is throwing acid/alchemist's fire in the first round of combat. Switching to shield and shortsword/scimitar afterwards to use maneuvers. If Crossbow Expert is something I can invest in, then maybe stick with the archery combat style and see if I can throw a vial and still attack with my off-hand with the crossbow (can you do that? Your hand would be free after throwing to load/draw ammunition), or maybe just do crossbow and shield for when ranged attacks are necessary (once again, can you do that? Would a shield stop you from being able to reload?).
When drawing both items isn't a problem (say you walk around in a dungeon with your rapier/whatever drawn) then you can just throw the potion and attack with your remaining weapon, as you're no longer holding two weapons. This will work fine, you just need to be good at having a weapon drawn before combat starts.

Archery combat style is amazing, but I probably wouldn't pick it unless you were also planning to use a lot of ranged attacks, like with a light crossbow. I'd personally take Archery if you'll be using a hand crossbow, or Duelist if you choose a melee weapon.

Shields do stop you from being able to load a crossbow, though your DM might change that, ask them.

The only maneuvers that require a melee attack are Lunging Attack, Parry, Riposte, and Sweeping Attack.

[Callin]

If UA is on the board dont forget about the Spell Less Ranger. Poultices and Anti Venom are two really good Alchemical things. Just add on Proficiency in Alchemical Tools and like someone said a few levels in Thief Rogue.

[Biffwit]

When drawing both items isn't a problem (say you walk around in a dungeon with your rapier/whatever drawn) then you can just throw the potion and attack with your remaining weapon, as you're no longer holding two weapons. This will work fine, you just need to be good at having a weapon drawn before combat starts.

Archery combat style is amazing, but I probably wouldn't pick it unless you were also planning to use a lot of ranged attacks, like with a light crossbow. I'd personally take Archery if you'll be using a hand crossbow, or Duelist if you choose a melee weapon.

Shields do stop you from being able to load a crossbow, though your DM might change that, ask them.

The only maneuvers that require a melee attack are Lunging Attack, Parry, Riposte, and Sweeping Attack.

All good points. You are absolutely right about Battlemaster. It says weapon attack and I thought it said melee attack.


If UA is on the board dont forget about the Spell Less Ranger. Poultices and Anti Venom are two really good Alchemical things. Just add on Proficiency in Alchemical Tools and like someone said a few levels in Thief Rogue.

Thank you for that. I didn't know about these.

[Xihirli]

Which maneuvers do you have?
Lunging attack requires melee, but Menacing, Trip, and Disarming don't.

[Biffwit]

Which maneuvers do you have?
Lunging attack requires melee, but Menacing, Trip, and Disarming don't.

I don't have any yet. This character will be starting at level 1. I was reading through Battlemaster cause I wanted to have loose build planned. I simply misread the maneuvers.

[sophontteks]

So, I don't think I could chuck potions/acid with my off-hand for two-weapon fighting. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I;ll be feat starved for sure. I'm looking at Healer with Vuman, but Tavern Brawler will help with my potion attacks. That means I'll likely need to give up my level for ASI. I was looking at the archery combat style, to mitigate the potion throwing at lower levels, but I'm not sure that's a good investment if I'll be taking Tavern Brawler.

I don't think I can use maneuvers with the potions throwing. Most of them require a melee attack. Once again, if I'm wrong, please correct me.

What I'm seeing is throwing acid/alchemist's fire in the first round of combat. Switching to shield and shortsword/scimitar afterwards to use maneuvers. If Crossbow Expert is something I can invest in, then maybe stick with the archery combat style and see if I can throw a vial and still attack with my off-hand with the crossbow (can you do that? Your hand would be free after throwing to load/draw ammunition), or maybe just do crossbow and shield for when ranged attacks are necessary (once again, can you do that? Would a shield stop you from being able to reload?).
Use item is not a weapon attack, so no, but the thief rogue can throw as a bonus action, which would allow you to dual wield. This would also allow it to work with most maneuvers.

I think rogue thief is the way to go. You need lots of skills, which it can offer, and its the only thing I'm aware of that enhances the use item action. You only need 3 levels and then you can do whatever you want. You can throw items every round while using maneuvers and multiple attacks.

[Blood of Gaea]

Use item is not a weapon attack, so no, but the thief rogue can throw as a bonus action, which would allow you to dual wield. This would also allow it to work with most maneuvers.

I think rogue thief is the way to go. You need lots of skills, which it can offer, and its the only thing I'm aware of that enhances the use item action. You only need 3 levels and then you can do whatever you want. You can throw items every round while using maneuvers and multiple attacks.
Throwing Alchemical Fire and Acid are explicitly attacks.

[VanCucci]

Throwing Alchemical Fire and Acid are explicitly attacks.

But they are not the Attack action: they require a standard action to use and then call for an attack roll, in the same way the SCAG cantrips use the Cast a Spell action and then need an melee weapon attack roll.

[Falcon X]

DawnforgedCast has a wonderful homebrew alchemist that our party is loving. Check it out.