PDA

View Full Version : Dirty spells Yay or Nay? How to deal with sex and sexual magic?



2018-03-23, 01:24 PM
So while my group is at a hiatus I started a new group and one of the players is a girl who is a huge fan of the Dragon age games, while she was creating her wizard she told me she was inspired by this dialogue sequence:

Anders: Were you trying to look at my grimoire the other day?
Merrill: Me? What? No! When?
Anders: At my clinic. While I was talking to Hawke. I saw you looking in one of my books. You know, those are private.
Merrill: I know, that's why I—Oh, fine. I admit it. I was hoping you'd have, um, dirty spells.
Anders: Dirty spells?
Merrill: You know! To, um, make things more exciting. Oh, I shouldn't have said anything.
(If Isabela is in the party)

Isabela: That's my girl.
(If Hawke is in a romance with Merrill)

Anders: More exciting? For you and Hawke?
Hawke: Stop. Just... stop right there.
(Otherwise)

Anders: I don't think I want to know.

And she wondered if it was possible to roleplay as a sexual wizard whose spells focus on eroticism and sexuality, she doesn't want to literally roleplay sexual encounters ( I would never allow that in my games) she just want the flavor of her spells to be sexual in nature, I advised her to focus on charm and illusion spells and not to do anything too graphic so to not off put the other players.

But her idea intrigued me and after a quick Google search I found out that there is a huge list of sexual themed spells (http://www.hambo.com/rpg/tarrastra/sex.html) out there.

They are not explicit or graphic so I don't think it will be a problem to post in here for further reference, but anyway would you guys allow this kind of thing in your game?

Karl Aegis
2018-03-23, 02:08 PM
As long as flicking an undergarment at someone isn't as effective as melting someone with a ball of plasma....

Pleh
2018-03-23, 02:31 PM
Eh, most groups aren't looking to cooperatively fantasize about the sexuality of their characters. At most, they'll make a "seduction" roll, let the dice decide, and cut ahead to the aftermath.

I'd be a bit leery of "seduction magic." If a person has been charmed into sex against their will, how different is it from a date rape drug? If they were willing, why did you need the magic?

I feel like Dragon Age gets away with it because it's a video game where the ever-important aspect of *context* is predefined and its easier to explore sexual content in a way that focuses the conversation to a more productive direction.

MarkVIIIMarc
2018-03-23, 03:48 PM
Ditto what was said above.

Sometimes less is more. My D&D Elf's backstory had her captured by a group of human supremacists (I was watching Sons of Anarchy when I came up with it). I told the rest of the party they did absolutely terrible things to her and thats why she's kinda distrustful towards guys and humans. My party members filled in the rest to their content in their head.

TheYell
2018-03-23, 04:38 PM
I believe Exalted's fey let you play out some of these ideas, if she's really interested find a table doing that.

RazorChain
2018-03-23, 05:52 PM
I once played an playboy mage with an ecstacy spell and a specialized enlargement spell.

His conquests were mostly off screen but it mostly colored his personality and how I played him.

He'd try to seduce the bad girls, because good girls go to heaven but bad girls bring heaven to you.

His lechery lead to his capture by an evil sorceress. The party had a hard time rescuing him because he didn't want to be rescued. But after that he'd aquired a taste for BDSM.

Then he started his own business and started to produce flesh golems for discreet customers and his enlargement potions were a huge success.

FreddyNoNose
2018-03-23, 06:33 PM
I had a pixie courtesan in a Arduin Grimoire game 40years ago or so. So there was a sexual angle, but since I was partnered with a thief, we had scams going on from blackmail to outright theft. It is doable but that doesn't make it something that everyone will feel comfortable with so it might be best to check with them or let them know before they get into the game.

digiman619
2018-03-23, 06:36 PM
First things first, ask the rest of the party how comfortable they are with this as a concept and how risque they are willing to go. If at least one person is uncomfortable with that, just have her be flirty and imply that she's having magical fun in the background. That should let her play The spirit of the character without creeping the rest of the party out.

If they are comfortable with it, have a blast, but make sure you set guidelines on how far it will go and keep to them. I don't care if it would be in character to charm someone into bed, if one of the party feels that a mind whammy to get sex is rape and is uncomfortable with it, just don't do it. Otherwise just have fun.

Anonymouswizard
2018-03-23, 07:05 PM
I'd be a bit leery of "seduction magic." If a person has been charmed into sex against their will, how different is it from a date rape drug? If they were willing, why did you need the magic?

I feel like Dragon Age gets away with it because it's a video game where the ever-important aspect of *context* is predefined and its easier to explore sexual content in a way that focuses the conversation to a more productive direction.

Note that in the Dragon Age quote it's not seduction magic. The games make it pretty clear that mind control is considered immoral in Thedas, which is actually the main reason blood magic is banned (sure, sacrifices and stuff, but the mind control is what everybody worries about). Merrill is asking about spells in the same way you might ask about handcuffs, something to spice it up instead of getting it.

To the thread topic, honest sex based spells are totally legitimate if the group is willing for it. As are characters with different connotations of modesty. Bare in mind that once you leave the city they likely reduce in usefulness, but they're still legitimate.

In games which give characters minor at-will magic I'd probably put a good number of sex-related affects there. Essentially these would be short term things that don't physically affect either partner but require consent. A handcuff spell, for example, that includes a safeword. Anything that includes physical effects would require actual resources to cast, but should still be fairly low ranked.

Also it's totally fine to reflavour spells to be sexual themed if you want. Just be warned that it might get old fast.

Ninja_Prawn
2018-03-23, 07:21 PM
after a quick Google search I found out that there is a huge list of sexual themed spells (http://www.hambo.com/rpg/tarrastra/sex.html) out there.

Sure are. There are even whole (https://index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtml?mainid=12687) sourcebooks (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/12195/Book-of-Erotic-Fantasy?it=1) dedicated to it.

Personally, I'd be inclined to keep this sort of thing out of most games, though it might have a place in more comedic ones.

Pex
2018-03-23, 08:20 PM
If I was playing with the right group. I still might be uncomfortable but only because of the conceptual situation, not offended.

There are interesting things you can do with the spell Mage Hand. Makes you wonder why it was really invented.

Frozen_Feet
2018-03-24, 12:22 AM
For me, personally, obvious "Yay!", and I'm all for making it explicit, graphic and horrifying. It doesn't need extensive metagame discussion either. What it needs is a little tip to the players that the game could go there, and an opportunity for them to bow out. "This game is rated Adults Only" or "I'm running Lamentations of the Flame Princess" are sufficient.

But as for how to deal with it... if someone think "sex magic" means "using magic as sex toys", they don't know much about sex magic. Using magical means merely for improving sex, or to get sex, are the sort of things which I'd use as signs that the person at hand is not a serious magician at all. This level of magic is what desperate single girls engage in during mid-summer festivities, it is banal and unambitious. Which doesn't mean using magic this way or playing characters like this is bad for gaming, on the contrary, if the game has mid-summer festivities and the desperate single girls aren't doing the traditional magic rituals, you have just omitted a colourfull background detail and your game is poorer for it.

For actual sex magic, magic isn't the means to do sex, sex is the means to do magic. The purpose of something like temple prostitution (speaking as someone who's made a Paladin/Sacred Prostitute) is to get in touch with the Divine - your aim might be to, through sex, to communicate with God, or achieve Enlightement.

Other practices, such as Tantra or Kundalini, are about focusing your intent and energies for things which ultimately aren't about sex at all. (D20 Book of Erotic fantasy provides some ideas regarding this sort of stuff, in addition to the banal.)

To paraphrase, there is a distinction between "dirty magic" (=using magic as means to sex) and sexual magic, with the former being a small, superficial fraction of the latter.

RazorChain
2018-03-24, 12:56 AM
For me, personally, obvious "Yay!", and I'm all for making it explicit, graphic and horrifying. It doesn't need extensive metagame discussion either. What it needs is a little tip to the players that the game could go there, and an opportunity for them to bow out. "This game is rated Adults Only" or "I'm running Lamentations of the Flame Princess" are sufficient.

But as for how to deal with it... if someone think "sex magic" means "using magic as sex toys", they don't know much about sex magic. Using magical means merely for improving sex, or to get sex, are the sort of things which I'd use as signs that the person at hand is not a serious magician at all. This level of magic is what desperate single girls engage in during mid-summer festivities, it is banal and unambitious. Which doesn't mean using magic this way or playing characters like this is bad for gaming, on the contrary, if the game has mid-summer festivities and the desperate single girls aren't doing the traditional magic rituals, you have just omitted a colourfull background detail and your game is poorer for it.

For actual sex magic, magic isn't the means to do sex, sex is the means to do magic. The purpose of something like temple prostitution (speaking as someone who's made a Paladin/Sacred Prostitute) is to get in touch with the Divine - your aim might be to, through sex, to communicate with God, or achieve Enlightement.

Other practices, such as Tantra or Kundalini, are about focusing your intent and energies for things which ultimately aren't about sex at all. (D20 Book of Erotic fantasy provides some ideas regarding this sort of stuff, in addition to the banal.)

To paraphrase, there is a distinction between "dirty magic" (=using magic as means to sex) and sexual magic, with the former being a small, superficial fraction of the latter.


Why not use both? I like both dirty and sexual magic, one the PC's bound himself to a cambion...no not D&D Cambion from the monster manual, but a real cambion through a sexual ritual. Then we have the dirty and comedic like the narcissistic gay mage who made the spell "Astral gate up my anus".

Frozen_Feet
2018-03-24, 02:08 AM
Read closer. I'm very much for using them both - the point is about what do these things imply of the characters or nature of magic. Using Charm Person to get sex is different from using sex to charm a person. In terms of horror, the former is "what if someone put roofies in my drink?", the latter is "what if I've been committed to an abusive relationship all along without knowing it?"

Satinavian
2018-03-24, 02:22 AM
I'd be a bit leery of "seduction magic." If a person has been charmed into sex against their will, how different is it from a date rape drug? If they were willing, why did you need the magic?One of my main systems has magic like that and basically every year it sparks this kind of discussion on various forums. Consensus usually is that yes, it is rape. With the exception of those spells which are basically superior makeup.


To paraphrase, there is a distinction between "dirty magic" (=using magic as means to sex) and sexual magic, with the former being a small, superficial fraction of the latter.I do like the existence of dirty magic even if it doesn't play a major role. Let's be honest, if there were a thing like magic, people would use it for sex.

But i don't like sexual magic. Sex should just stay an emotional but completely mundane act instead of getting an upgrade to a source of supernatural powers. At best i can accept magic powered/linked to emotion somehow benefiting for sex as well as from other emotional situations.

Frozen_Feet
2018-03-24, 02:58 AM
I suppose you then also wouldn't like someone using mundane sexual intimacy to wrap a politician around their little finger, or in a fantasy game, using it to influence a magician or some supernatural entity?

The whole idea of sexual magic comes from the observation that non-magical sexuality already is a form of power. Sexual magic isn't an upgrade so much as it's acknowledging the effect of the act in a world where supernatural things exist. I can understand not wanting to see this aspect of sex in a game, though.

RazorChain
2018-03-24, 03:06 AM
One of my main systems has magic like that and basically every year it sparks this kind of discussion on various forums. Consensus usually is that yes, it is rape. With the exception of those spells which are basically superior makeup.

I do like the existence of dirty magic even if it doesn't play a major role. Let's be honest, if there were a thing like magic, people would use it for sex.

All kinds of mind reading and mind control is abusive. Most people don't put much thought into the ethics of it in the game environment.

Frozen_Feet
2018-03-24, 03:21 AM
I disagree with that precisely because I have to think of ethics outside of the hobby. :smalltongue:

Pleh
2018-03-24, 04:47 AM
I guess my main point (beyond the fact that the whole topic can be inextricably tied to harsh and uncomfortable real world problems... at least for some people) was more what I see in the other thread about a player wanting to play as a "rapey" orc character.

It was mentioned in that thread that doing this would involve real world role players having to don the roles of characters in a sexual experience, which is clearly not a good idea for a specifically rape-based character, but I was meaning how even roleplaying consensual sex can be problematic.

Sex has this funny way of coloring everything it touches. While this is often a good thing, it takes a boatload of responsibility to manage when it isn't being given the top priority that it naturally tries to have. People can think adding sex to a game changes nothing for them only to find a few sessions in that it affected them more than anticipated. It can be toxic to their relationship with tabletop RPGs (and the players across from them) if they start having trouble separating the feeling of power fantasy inherent in RPGs from the lure of sexual content.

IIRC 3.5's book of erotic fantasy was written by a married couple who intentionally mixed gaming with their own real life sexual relationship. This kind of demonstrates the way sex and roleplaying tend to bond to one another, so any game seeking to include sexual themes needs to be aware of this connection whether they intend to pursue it (like the authors memtioned above did), or avoid it (as the more common scenario of platonic gaming friends tends to be).

Satinavian
2018-03-24, 04:48 AM
I suppose you then also wouldn't like someone using mundane sexual intimacy to wrap a politician around their little finger, or in a fantasy game, using it to influence a magician or some supernatural entity?

The whole idea of sexual magic comes from the observation that non-magical sexuality already is a form of power. Sexual magic isn't an upgrade so much as it's acknowledging the effect of the act in a world where supernatural things exist. I can understand not wanting to see this aspect of sex in a game, though.
Having bis muscles is also a source of power. Doesn't make strongmen magic beings. Being born rich is also a source of power. Doesn't mean you can buy inherent magic talent in most settings (even if you probably could by magic items or services).

Magic is usually power. But power is not magic.



All kinds of mind reading and mind control is abusive. Most people don't put much thought into the ethics of it in the game environment.I would not go that far. Most forms of mind control would be coercion but that is not necessarily always abuse.

Most forms of mind reading would be some kind of invasion of privacy. But that is even less always abuse.

But you are not completely wrong. If i want to build some kind of nice or benevolent character those powers are rarely what i choose and never what i would choose as my main shtick.

Frozen_Feet
2018-03-24, 05:17 AM
Having bis muscles is also a source of power. Doesn't make strongmen magic beings. Being born rich is also a source of power. Doesn't mean you can buy inherent magic talent in most settings (even if you probably could by magic items or services).

Magic is usually power. But power is not magic.

No, but power can lead to magic. A strongman can bully a magician or a magic creature to grant them power, and the rich guy buying magic is dirt-common in the fantasy genre. The distinction between inherent magic and acquired magic is besides the point. If you've ever caught me waxing poetic about the subject, I hold that magic is something you do, not something you are. And you can use any kind of power over people to do magic by proxy, if magic is at all a thing for people-like things.

Satinavian
2018-03-24, 05:33 AM
Doing magic by proxy just means someone else is doing magic at your behest and/or your benefit. It is not you doing the magic. It is not your magic. Getting someone else to do magic is not a magic act in itself.

It is not an act of money-magic to pay a magician in the same way as it is not some kind of money-carpentry to pay a carpenter. Same for bullying or using sex.

Frozen_Feet
2018-03-24, 05:49 AM
Which is, again, besides the point. If I can get a chair by doing something unrelated for an hour and then paying for it, it's not much of an upgrade if I can build the chair myself in an hour. You'll realize even better how insignificant the distinction you're trying to make is, if you try to apply it to any setting (or any archetype, such as the Cleric) where magic for humans is chiefly gained through barter with gods, spirits, demons etc.

Sure, "it's not you who is supernatural, it's the god/spirit/demon!", but it is you who has their power at your beck and call.

Satinavian
2018-03-24, 06:05 AM
Actually depending on the system it often is the cleric who performs the magic and not the god. A very common setup is the god giving magic ability to the priest but the priest being the one using that ability as he wishes and as well as his abilities allow.

And yes, that is a very important distinction. If priestly magic comes directly from the god, then everything done by it and even attempted by it must be the will of the god. But if the god only provided magic ability and the priest actually does the magic, it might be against the wishes of the god.

Mastikator
2018-03-24, 06:59 AM
To me sex is something very intimate- not a group activity. I'd find it very off putting and would actually consider this a deal breaker.

johnbragg
2018-03-24, 07:32 AM
I suppose you then also wouldn't like someone using mundane sexual intimacy to wrap a politician around their little finger, or in a fantasy game, using it to influence a magician or some supernatural entity?

The whole idea of sexual magic comes from the observation that non-magical sexuality already is a form of power. Sexual magic isn't an upgrade so much as it's acknowledging the effect of the act in a world where supernatural things exist. I can understand not wanting to see this aspect of sex in a game, though.

Probably not. That's for out-of-game table reasons, not for in-game versimilitude reasons.

TTRPGs are (mostly) team games. The party is working together to accomplish goals. Write rules for this sort of thing, and it becomes another minigame that usually only one PC has the ability to interact with while everyone else sits around the table watching them. Comparable to "1337 [email protected]" in cyberpunk games, or the solo "I scout ahead" stealth guy.

Then you combine that with the squick/eyeroll factor in general.

Add a layer of bad experiences from teenage and college-years gaming where crushes were played out at the gaming table via PCs and/or DMPCs and it all adds up to "reasons not to do that."

(Yes, you might think my 12 year old daughter would probably enjoy our family game more if I put in a kitsune boy NPC for her to flirt with. But who has to roleplay that NPC? Dad, the DM, so hell no. She can do that with her 12 year old friends in her text message freeform RP game.)

Delta
2018-03-24, 08:16 AM
As others have said: No one can answer "Yay or Nay?" for you but yourself and your group. Everything is fine as long as everyone is fine with it, simple as that. I've had games where it was understood the sexual topics would only be hinted at best, with some flirting/seduction rolls and a fade to black after that. I've had games where sex was hilariously explicit and everyone had loads of fun with that, and I've had games where the sexual themes went really dark and I'd never run anything like that had I not been absolutely positive everyone was down with that.

There's no objective right or wrong here, the important part is making sure what everyones' limits are, making it clear that as soon as one person around the table does not feel comfortable, that's when you cut and fade to black and there can be no discussion about it. I don't know where it originated but there's some pretty good concepts for things like this with a yellow/red card "mechanic", where every player has a card they can hold up when they don't feel comfortable with something, yellow for saying "I don't like where this is going" and red for "this is NOT okay", which is something I'd definitely recommend including if you know your game will contain themes of that nature.

Frozen_Feet
2018-03-24, 08:43 AM
Actually depending on the system it often is the cleric who performs the magic and not the god. A very common setup is the god giving magic ability to the priest but the priest being the one using that ability as he wishes and as well as his abilities allow.

Which is a perversion and/or misunderstanding of how this thing was done in myth, and still not as relevant of a distinction as you think.

The actual relevant part is "how did the magician get in touch with god/demon/spirit and why did they give them power?" If sleeping the god/spirit/demon is possible, then sex is a real answer to these questions. It is this act of doing sex to contact and manipulate a higher being that is the crux of real sexual magic, not the idea that the participant is themselves supernatural.



And yes, that is a very important distinction. If priestly magic comes directly from the god, then everything done by it and even attempted by it must be the will of the god. But if the god only provided magic ability and the priest actually does the magic, it might be against the wishes of the god.
This only hold presuming that the higher being cannot be manipulated, but this runs contrary to many actual myths and beliefs of such creature. In real myths, folklore, spirituality etc. sources of fantastic context, these beings very much are vulnerable to human manipulation. For non-sexual example, see various folktales about Jack-o-lantern, where the titular Jack tricks the Devil via completely mundande means to get what he wants.

It is this manipulation, social interaction and trickery through various means, including sex, which is at the core of great many ideas of magic.

Of course, also looking at Jack-o-lantern, you will also find examples of the Devil getting back at Jack once the deception was revealed. But this, again, is not as relevant as you think. The wide-spread idea that "magic is unreliable" is based on notions of gods/demons/spirits working in mysterious ways, hence meaning that manipulating them was risky and only the really clever, wise and charismatic could do it.

Pleh
2018-03-24, 09:09 AM
Doing magic by proxy just means someone else is doing magic at your behest and/or your benefit. It is not you doing the magic. It is not your magic. Getting someone else to do magic is not a magic act in itself.

This is not necessarily true. For example, it may not be possible (in a given setting) to contact divine beings without using magic, so the caster may be only using enough magic to elicit greater power by proxy. It's not great to say that "all magic by proxy is not you doing magic." It's that your own actions aren't creating the end result being pursued.

A technological parallel: a person uses a computer to submit a commission to another person to use their computer to create digital artwork. Both people are using computers, but only one is doing the work of creating the end result.

Anonymouswizard
2018-03-24, 09:15 AM
All kinds of mind reading and mind control is abusive. Most people don't put much thought into the ethics of it in the game environment.

Yeah, games do normally skip over this. I tend to find it odd that in D&D spells such as Animate Dead are considered evil while Charm Person isn't. Charm Person literally takes away a person's ability to decide, and while doing so may be evil if you give me the ability to cast I will abuse it.

I once used a Charm person to get a discount on a horse. I ended up getting it for free due to a natural 20 on my Persuade roll. I was surprised when the GM didn't bat an eyelid at such a casual use of mind control.

Kaptin Keen
2018-03-24, 11:08 AM
I'd be a bit leery of "seduction magic." If a person has been charmed into sex against their will, how different is it from a date rape drug? If they were willing, why did you need the magic?

Now ... how is that worse - or even particularly different - than murdering your friends under the influence of a charm spell?

Don't answer that. Rethorical, and not a discussion I'm looking for =)

Seduction is part of the movies and litterature RPG's take inspiration from. Whether it's James Bond, or Jessica Jones, or Triss Merigold (or Geralt, obviously) or Conan the Barbarian, using sex to either gain information, or lure enemies into a trap - or to assassinate them when they're the most vulnerable - is a mainstay of the various genres.

It's more complicated in RPG's - among other reasons, because a sexually outspoken player may well make another player who's more sexually private quite uncomfortable. It also does lead to certain moral questions, but as already stated above, if you look at the morals of 'adventuring' too closely, it all falls apart very very quickly. We're playing murder-hobo's, let's be honest. Alignment is a fig leaf to cover up the fact that we're slaughtering our way to fame, power and richess.

Frozen_Feet
2018-03-24, 11:34 AM
Alignment doesn't really enter into it, save for people who equate D&D Good with real morals and insist on banning Evil from play.

In other kinds of games, whether something is Evil has little to do with what's tolerated at the table. The players might be fine with bloody murder, by which I mean they call the murderer Evil and then just continue playing... but not be okay with Mage's Disjunction, likening it to rape of their characters and saying it is an immediate reason to leave a group. (You can accuse me of hyperbole, but this is a claim that's actually been made in these boards.)

So passing moral judgement, especially in-game moral judgement, on acts of sexual magic is somewhat pointless. This is very rarely a problem of morals and more commonly a problem of player squick.

Max_Killjoy
2018-03-24, 11:53 AM
It does leave me perplexed, how little objection or conversation is created by mind control effects in RPGs.


And both "sex magic" and "mind control" fall under the heading of things that a GM must approach on an individual basis.

These cannot be topics where the group says "Well we're doing seduction spells and everyone is fair game".

And no, not IMO. This one is objective, and absolute. You do not force mind control, seduction, explicit sexual depictions involving their PCs, etc onto players who aren't comfortable with them. End of story. If you really really want that to be something that's open season across the group, then you'd better make it entirely clear up front and leave every player a chance to say "no thank you", and even not partake of the campaign if that's the choice they need to make.

ross
2018-03-24, 01:15 PM
introduce sexual stuff into a game played almost exclusively by socially retarded nerds? what could go wrong?

ross
2018-03-24, 01:38 PM
Which is a perversion and/or misunderstanding of how this thing was done in myth

runs contrary to many actual myths

In real myths

We get it, you care about mythology. Doesn't matter. Whatever the source books say, goes.

2018-03-24, 01:43 PM
Oh no guys I wasn’t thinking about something so explicit, more like a fun and funny thing.

Picture this scenario:

Ranger: Oh no the evil duke has sent his best elite knights after us!

Rougue: I won’t be able to open the castle gates in time, we need a distraction.

Paladin: Sex wizard, do something!

Wizard: I cast, Orgasmic Vibrations, Mass!

Orgasmic Vibrations, Mass (Book of Erotic Fantasy)
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting, Sexual]
Level: Brd 6, Sor/Wiz 8
Target: One or more living creature, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
As orgasmic vibrations, except this spell affects multiple creatures.

Orgasmic Vibrations (Book of Erotic Fantasy)
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting, Sexual]
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V and S.
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One living creature
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
A grand, shuddering orgasm overwhelms a living creature that fails its saving throw, making the creature dazed for the duration of the spell. A target that makes its saving throw still suffers pleasurable, but merely distracting, sensations.

She could have cast hold person mass but this way not only she was able to hold them down it was quite a humiliating defeat, the elite knights of the evil duke where left in the floor confused, having seizures of pleasure and making a mess while the party escaped thought the front gate, they were dominated by a magical force like hold person but it was pleasurable rather than creepy so it looks like they were not able to help themselves but be overwhelmed by them, making the elite guard seem less elite.

So a hold person spell would make people talk about a powerful spell caster who dominated the elite knight’s minds but an orgasm spell makes them look bad, like they were not able to hold themselves, it was a humiliating defeat, people would talk about how the elite knigths stood there in the floor unable to take a hold of their bodies while the party escaped.

Would you guys allow THIS sort of thing in your game or is it too goofy?

ross
2018-03-24, 01:48 PM
Oh no guys I wasn’t thinking about something so explicit, more like a fun and funny thing.

Picture this scenario:

Ranger: Oh no the evil duke has sent his best elite knights after us!

Rougue: I won’t be able to open the castle gates in time, we need a distraction.

Paladin: Sex wizard, do something!

Wizard: I cast, Orgasmic Vibrations, Mass!

Orgasmic Vibrations, Mass (Book of Erotic Fantasy)
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting, Sexual]
Level: Brd 6, Sor/Wiz 8
Target: One or more living creature, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
As orgasmic vibrations, except this spell affects multiple creatures.

Orgasmic Vibrations (Book of Erotic Fantasy)
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting, Sexual]
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V and S.
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One living creature
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
A grand, shuddering orgasm overwhelms a living creature that fails its saving throw, making the creature dazed for the duration of the spell. A target that makes its saving throw still suffers pleasurable, but merely distracting, sensations.

She could have cast hold person mass but this way not only she was able to hold them down it was quite a humiliating defeat, the elite knights of the evil duke where left in the floor confused, having seizures of pleasure and making a mess while the party escaped thought the front gate, they were dominated by a magical force like hold person but it was pleasurable rather than creepy so it looks like they were not able to help themselves but be overwhelmed by them, making the elite guard seem less elite.

So a hold person spell would make people talk about a powerful spell caster who dominated the elite knight’s minds but an orgasm spell makes them look bad, like they were not able to hold themselves, it was a humiliating defeat, people would talk about how the elite knigths stood there in the floor unable to take a hold of their bodies while the party escaped.

Would you guys allow THIS sort of thing in your game or is it too goofy?

jesus christ

Mastikator
2018-03-24, 01:54 PM
jesus christ

Seconded. Jesus christ

Max_Killjoy
2018-03-24, 01:55 PM
Oh no guys I wasn’t thinking about something so explicit, more like a fun and funny thing.

Picture this scenario:

Ranger: Oh no the evil duke has sent his best elite knights after us!

Rougue: I won’t be able to open the castle gates in time, we need a distraction.

Paladin: Sex wizard, do something!

Wizard: I cast, Orgasmic Vibrations, Mass!

Orgasmic Vibrations, Mass (Book of Erotic Fantasy)
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting, Sexual]
Level: Brd 6, Sor/Wiz 8
Target: One or more living creature, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
As orgasmic vibrations, except this spell affects multiple creatures.

Orgasmic Vibrations (Book of Erotic Fantasy)
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting, Sexual]
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V and S.
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One living creature
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
A grand, shuddering orgasm overwhelms a living creature that fails its saving throw, making the creature dazed for the duration of the spell. A target that makes its saving throw still suffers pleasurable, but merely distracting, sensations.

She could have cast hold person mass but this way not only she was able to hold them down it was quite a humiliating defeat, the elite knights of the evil duke where left in the floor confused, having seizures of pleasure and making a mess while the party escaped thought the front gate, they were dominated by a magical force like hold person but it was pleasurable rather than creepy so it looks like they were not able to help themselves but be overwhelmed by them, making the elite guard seem less elite.

So a hold person spell would make people talk about a powerful spell caster who dominated the elite knight’s minds but an orgasm spell makes them look bad, like they were not able to hold themselves, it was a humiliating defeat, people would talk about how the elite knigths stood there in the floor unable to take a hold of their bodies while the party escaped.

Would you guys allow THIS sort of thing in your game or is it too goofy?

IMO, too goofy.

If I were going to include the general topic of "sexual magic" in a campaign or game, it wouldn't not be from a comedic angle, it would be from a very matter-of-fact angle.

2018-03-24, 02:11 PM
I think I would just add them as flavour easter eggs.

Like these two spells:

Mirror Talk (Book of Erotic Fantasy)
Illusion (Phantasm) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: See text
Effect: Magical sensor
Duration: 1 minute/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

The spell enables the caster to create a link from her focus mirror to a second focus mirror elsewhere on the same plane. She must have carefully studied the mirror, but need not know where it is located.

The link between mirrors enables those in front of the mirror to see through the opposing focus as if it were a window. Sights and sounds pass through the foci. This enables line of sight but not line of effect.

Focus: A pair of finely wrought and highly polished silver mirrors costing not less than 1000 gp. The mirrors can be of any size.

Mirror Walk (Book of Erotic Fantasy)
Conjuration [Teleportation]
Level: Sor/Wiz 6
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Personal and touch
Target: You and touched objects or other touched willing creatures
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions as greater teleport except that it creates a link from the caster's focus mirror to a second focus mirror elsewhere on the same plane. She must have carefully studied the mirror, but need not know where it is located.

Focus: A pair of finely wrought and highly polished silver mirrors costing not less than 1000 gp. The mirrors must be tall enough and wide enough to allow the creatures to pass through them. If either mirror is too small to allow passage for the traveler, he cannot pass through.

They are basically a fantasy version of a dirty skype section, it's has a lot of flavour and makes sense, if can bind and reshape space and time, wouldn't you use that to keep in touch with your loved one?

Finding a spell scroll with these spells in the evil wizard's tower bedroom makes sense and is funny, and this spell can be used for non sexual things too and that makes it useful.

Frozen_Feet
2018-03-24, 02:34 PM
We get it, you care about mythology. Doesn't matter. Whatever the source books say, goes.

This is the general RPG forum; I'm approaching this from a perspective where no sourcebook is specified and where someone reading this might have to design the rules and context for the act. Talking about myths to base this on is valid. Most popular fantasy concepts were appropriated from myth and folklore anyway, and just in D&D there are plenty of character archetypes which work on the basis I outlined, for that reason. For example, Cleric in AD&D and Warlocks in d20 D&D explicitly gain powers via social contract with a supernatural being, so it's a valid question if that contract is based in sexual interaction. The low, PG-13 bar for that is a supernatural creature giving a character powers because they are smitten for the character's beauty.

---

EDIT: and yes I would lead those spells pass. Goofy? Maybe, but there's nothing wrong with goofy. Not even close to the worst things my players have spontaneously sprung on me without magic.

ross
2018-03-24, 07:15 PM
This is the general RPG forum; I'm approaching this from a perspective where no sourcebook is specified and where someone reading this might have to design the rules and context for the act. Talking about myths to base this on is valid. Most popular fantasy concepts were appropriated from myth and folklore anyway, and just in D&D there are plenty of character archetypes which work on the basis I outlined, for that reason. For example, Cleric in AD&D and Warlocks in d20 D&D explicitly gain powers via social contract with a supernatural being, so it's a valid question if that contract is based in sexual interaction. The low, PG-13 bar for that is a supernatural creature giving a character powers because they are smitten for the character's beauty.

---

EDIT: and yes I would lead those spells pass. Goofy? Maybe, but there's nothing wrong with goofy. Not even close to the worst things my players have spontaneously sprung on me without magic.

And it's also completely irrelevant. The cleric or warlock get their spells back when they rest for 8 hours and that's it.

Karl Aegis
2018-03-25, 02:28 AM
Well, when someone casts a spell that can bring down an entire duchy by itself and your group lives to tell the tale, you probably are elite. Your spell is a better version of a 9th level spell, Mass Hold Monster, but with less monsters immune to it and very few or no monsters able to counterspell it normally. Oh, it doesn't require a focus, either. It's a ridiculously unbalanced spell. Magic was already strong enough, we didn't need better, stronger, faster magic.

Koo Rehtorb
2018-03-25, 03:57 AM
I don't see anything inherently wrong with reskinning spells to have the same mechanical effects but with a sex theme. The same as I don't see anything wrong with reskinning spells with any particular theme, so long as it doesn't change their mechanics.

Being too goofy/uncomfortable/rapey is certainly a concern and everyone in the group should be on board with it in advance, however.

Mystral
2018-03-25, 04:00 AM
No, I wouldn't allow something like this. It makes everyone uncomfortable and doesn't contribute in a meaningfull way.

Delta
2018-03-25, 04:54 AM
No, I wouldn't allow something like this. It makes everyone uncomfortable and doesn't contribute in a meaningfull way.

For the record, I'm not telling you to include anything at your table you don't want. But to point one thing out, it obviously does not make everyone uncomfortable, and some people seem to think it does contribute in a meaningful way, as you can see in this very thread, otherwise there would be no debate. As always with these kinds of things, it's a highly subjective matter.

Frozen_Feet
2018-03-25, 09:24 AM
And it's also completely irrelevant. The cleric or warlock get their spells back when they rest for 8 hours and that's it.

Wrong. In AD&D, the Cleric's ability to get any spells is contingent upon them following precepts of their faith, and for higher level spells, explicitly requires liason with their god's servant or the god itself. If, for example, you are a follower of a sex god and do not observe the sexual rituals of your faith, that is grounds for you not getting the spells you want.

For Warlocks, the point again is not what they do with their powers after getting them, it's how they got their powers to begin with. In-universe, it makes a world of difference if you can gain magic by cavorting with demons/faeries/Yog-Sothoth, versus if you can't.

So not only is yout statement missing the point, I have to conclude you have not actually read AD&D rules all that closely.

2018-03-25, 04:35 PM
Well, when someone casts a spell that can bring down an entire duchy by itself and your group lives to tell the tale, you probably are elite. Your spell is a better version of a 9th level spell, Mass Hold Monster, but with less monsters immune to it and very few or no monsters able to counterspell it normally. Oh, it doesn't require a focus, either. It's a ridiculously unbalanced spell. Magic was already strong enough, we didn't need better, stronger, faster magic.

I belive it only works on humans, I'm sure it doesn't work on costructs and the undead.

There is a focus I just removed becuase rules.

And magic is Op no matter what, it's D&D after all.

Honest Tiefling
2018-03-25, 05:08 PM
Probably not. More explicit sex stuff goes into creepy territory faster than most gamers gravitate to doritos and mountain dew unless you are with a very tight knit group. I'm personally too afraid of players trying to powergame this sort of thing in ways that wasn't intentional. No, you cannot turn your peener into a bludgeoning natural attack.

What I would probably prefer is to focus on being subtle. What does sex magic mean to the player? If it means being charming, congratulations, you are a bard based on dance or a similar skill. Go invest in Insight and Persuasion, maybe throw in some old contacts. Think of maybe going the Temple Prostitute route to avoid disease/pregnancy, and explain why so many higher ranking people are sleeping with the same person.

Or if they want creative with spells, I'd probably allow some leeway as long as it doesn't violate the spell as written (or make non-combat cantrips, such as a spell to make some grease that will also get past rusty doorways and locks), or become too powerful. I think after a while, people are going to understand what is going on if you have Grease, Hold Person, Enlarge Person, Mending, etc. on your spell list.

Or maybe just let them have a follower, especially if the group needs a healer or something. I think after the third time the wizard disappears with the healer, the players really ought to understand what is happening.

Corneel
2018-03-25, 05:32 PM
It should be OK, as long as the everyone around the table agrees and spells are cast with a French (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHW0FgiB7TI) or Russian (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKM7xaWM5U8) accent (which are the two sexiest accents in the world).

Honest Tiefling
2018-03-25, 07:43 PM
It should be OK, as long as the everyone around the table agrees and spells are cast with a French (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHW0FgiB7TI) or Russian (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKM7xaWM5U8) accent (which are the two sexiest accents in the world).

Yeah, recent polls (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1224773/French-lose-accent-love--Irish-lilt-voted-worlds-sexiest.html) might disagree with you on that one. Yes, I know not the most reliable, but it is about sexy accents. You tell me a reputable source.

Clearly, all sexy accents must be blended together to make for a unique roleplaying experience. They'll be too annoyed to be creepy in any way!

ross
2018-04-03, 07:25 AM
Wrong. In AD&D, the Cleric's ability to get any spells is contingent upon them following precepts of their faith, and for higher level spells, explicitly requires liason with their god's servant or the god itself. If, for example, you are a follower of a sex god and do not observe the sexual rituals of your faith, that is grounds for you not getting the spells you want.

For Warlocks, the point again is not what they do with their powers after getting them, it's how they got their powers to begin with. In-universe, it makes a world of difference if you can gain magic by cavorting with demons/faeries/Yog-Sothoth, versus if you can't.

So not only is yout statement missing the point, I have to conclude you have not actually read AD&D rules all that closely.

Nope, long rest :)

Rhedyn
2018-04-03, 08:26 AM
Combat sexual spells strike me as far too silly and I tend to lean more on the goofy side of D&D/RPGs.

Now if your setting is oglaf, then proceed.

Otherwise I would think sexual spells would be used for things like sex. Boar's endurance, curse of quickness, Everytime you do it you change gender, literal fireworks in the bedroom, heightened sensitivity, birth control, ect.

King of Nowhere
2018-04-03, 10:53 AM
for the purpose of magic seduction vs magic rape, my campaign world uses a simple guideline: anything that affects you is an enhancer to seduction, and it is ok. Anything that affects the other person is mind rape, which (at least in most nations) is considered definitely worse than rape, and often worse than murder (murder can be undone with a spell; the psycological damage of having your mind intruded and used cannot). Mind reading is an infringment of privacy, but since it doesn't change anything in the other person, is a lesser crime.

So, casting eagle's splendor on you is perfectly fine, and not really different in concept from wearing expensive clothes or having skill ranks in make-up artist.
Casting mind read on your date to figure out the best way to approach her will get you a fine and you will be recorded for committing crimes with magic. If it's your first infraction, however, you generally won't get any more serious consequence.
Casting charme on your date will get you years or decades of prison, depending on exactly what the spell did and how you abused your power.

that goes for regular nations, where laws are made to protect the people. At least some of the evil nations rule that an important person is absolutely fine using mind effects on a nobody.

My campaign world has amulets of sexual power that enhance endurance, sensation, performance and reload time, but they are only shown on rich people as a joke or bit of characterization. They are fairly rare, because they must be crafted by a spellcaster with a strong libido to be effective; the hornier the mage, the strongest the amulet. So those wizards who have the interest in making one generally lack the focus to become powerul enough to craft items, and viceversa. They are pendants shaped like the playboy logo.

That's pretty much all I have about sexual magic.

As for how to use it, I am generally direct, but I don't linger with descriptions. As in "you successfully infiltrated the manor of this guy for the purpose of confronting him when he's without protective gear. You sneak invisibly into his bedroom, and find him on his bed having sex with three concubines. He has an amulet of sexual power; you can realize he'd be pretty skilled even without it, and he's also definitely goood-looking. The concubines seem to be actually enjoyng themselves. Of course he removed his armor and boots, but he's still wearing his rings and the belt of giant strenght. His scabbarded sword lies somewhere amid the bed sheets, so no way of getting it away from him without being discovered."
here sex was part of the scene, but also of the characterization; the guy was a faithful of hextor, but he wasn't really evil, he was just raised to pray hextor and never knew another way of life. the fact that he kept concubines but tried to treat them like actual partners rather than like trash was a hint of that. The fact that he had no interest in the government but spent all his time exercicing with the sword or having sex was another
Or "you gathered information about this villain. You discover .... he had a wife; what he liked more about her, besides her good looks, was her low resistance to enchantment spells. He dumped her when she got older. The poor woman got charmed/dominated so often that she's become little more than a vegetable, personality-wise"
this was just a random bit of characterization on a villain. Yes, this was a genuinely despicable guy.