[PEACH] New Base Class - Elementalist

[thegreatone5224]

Hey everyone,

I'm currently creating a new class and while I'm not quite done yet I'd love to get some feedback as to how it is currently progressing.

Elementalist (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/H1Hx2yUeqM)

Edit
Made some changes that were both major and minor. Please take the time to review it once more.

8-21-18 - Made some tweaks and started on the water archtype.

[thegreatone5224]

Made a few changes to the Earth element to make it feel more tanky. I also completed the spell list.

Right now the class is technically a finished class but I'm planning on adding a Fire and Water specialization before calling it completed.

[thegreatone5224]

Finished the Source of Power/Origin sections. Please let me know what you think.

[nickl_2000]

I do like the concept of a half-warlock style caster, it isn't something that I have seen before. I think you have some pretty serious power creep though and it needs some balancing out.


My comments, some will be clarifications, grammar, and piddly stuff :)

Signature Spells
You say in here "it doesn't count against spells prepared." The class uses spells known, so you should change the phrasing

Spellcasting Focus
This is a custom item. So you need a cost to make. Also, I would give more options here. How would you be able to use this casting focus if you also were wearing magical gloves?

Spellcasting Variant
This confuses me. So, you never get a range longer than 5 feet for casting?

Compressed Spell
How does this work with the spellcasting variant?

Light as Air
How does being light help you hide? I can buy Dash and Disengage, but take away the hide. You aren't a rogue and shouldn't get one of the rogues signature abilities (especially earlier than a rogue).

Elemental Body: Air
1 action causes you to be immune to grapple, hold person, restrained, many poison effects, difficult terrain, and triple your jump distance for 2+ minutes? It's to much for this low of a level. You need to either reduce the amount it does or you need to make this a much higher level ability.

Body of Air
Level 10 you get resistance to 2 elements and evasion? Again, to much, pick either the evasion or resistances and stick with that.



Unarmored Defense
Between the shield and this you are making this class better than the monk at being unarmored. I get the argument that Barbarians get something similar, but Strength is their primary stat not Dex/Con. You are giving this in the two primary stats of Dex and Int. Either give the Unarmored Defense or Shield Proficiency, not both (or if you insist on both do Dex + Con instead of Dex+Int).



Fire Bonus Cantrip
There is Produce Flames, Control Flames, Green Flame Blade, and Firebolt. All are thematic, but there isn't a create flames cantrip. I would go with Control Flames personally since it's more of a fluff cantrip than a direct damaging cantrip. It would be more fitting with the other elements bonus cantrips.



Spells:
Primal Savagery could be a good addition to cantrips since it's acid damage.
Wall of Fire is appropriate for forth level, as is Ice Storm
Flame Strike could be an additional 5th level spell
Conjure Elemental as another 5th level

[thegreatone5224]

Thanks for taking a look at the class even though the fire and water archetypes are unfinished. Here are a few responses.



Spellcasting Focus
This is a custom item. So you need a cost to make. Also, I would give more options here. How would you be able to use this casting focus if you also were wearing magical gloves?
Good point, I should make a cost to make should the item be destroyed/lost/stolen for one reason or another. I'll change it to just be some type of trinket with the proper gems embedded within it. I had also considered that the core inside their body would fit this role nicely. It might be too convenient given that the core would only ever be lost if someone ripped it out of our body killing you in the process.



Spellcasting Variant
This confuses me. So, you never get a range longer than 5 feet for casting?
The idea was that they are strictly limited to melee range when casting spells and must target something adjacent to them. I'm not sure if I should keep this though. Many spells have an area of effect and I didn't put in a feature to address it until level 10. I've been considering just removing the variant all together and setting it aside to use for a different class.



Compressed Spell
How does this work with the spellcasting variant?
It was meant to allow your current spells to be cast at a higher levels so that your damage output would stay relevant as a caster orientated class. This is the same as the warlocks but instead of getting a new spell, you simply power up existing spells.



Light as Air
How does being light help you hide? I can buy Dash and Disengage, but take away the hide. You aren't a rogue and shouldn't get one of the rogues signature abilities (especially earlier than a rogue).
Whoops, I forgot to take out hide, lol.



Elemental Body: Air
1 action causes you to be immune to grapple, hold person, restrained, many poison effects, difficult terrain, and triple your jump distance for 2+ minutes? It's to much for this low of a level. You need to either reduce the amount it does or you need to make this a much higher level ability.
I didn't think this was too much given you can only use it once/twice/thrice per short rest depending on your level. I drastically reduce the duration of the spells they originated from to create something new. This is really a combination of Jump (1st level) and Freedom of Movement (4th level). Given both spells normally last 1 hour and don't have concentration checks, I didn't think that 2 minutes was that bad.



Body of Air
Level 10 you get resistance to 2 elements and evasion? Again, to much, pick either the evasion or resistances and stick with that.
I suppose you have a point. I've removed the resistances.



Unarmored Defense
Between the shield and this you are making this class better than the monk at being unarmored. I get the argument that Barbarians get something similar, but Strength is their primary stat not Dex/Con. You are giving this in the two primary stats of Dex and Int. Either give the Unarmored Defense or Shield Proficiency, not both (or if you insist on both do Dex + Con instead of Dex+Int).
I see what you are saying. I originally had it without the Shield Prof but my DM didn't think it was strong enough to be considered tanky given the earth element was designed to lead in the front line. I had considered changing the hit die to d10 and dropping shield prof but that give the other elements too much of a buff IMO. Maybe Dex+Con would be the proper way to deal with theme.



Fire Bonus Cantrip
There is Produce Flames, Control Flames, Green Flame Blade, and Firebolt. All are thematic, but there isn't a create flames cantrip. I would go with Control Flames personally since it's more of a fluff cantrip than a direct damaging cantrip. It would be more fitting with the other elements bonus cantrips.
Haha I must have mistyped while I was staring at the cantrips in the Xanathar's book. Updated to Control Flames



Spells:
Primal Savagery could be a good addition to cantrips since it's acid damage.
Wall of Fire is appropriate for forth level, as is Ice Storm
Flame Strike could be an additional 5th level spell
Conjure Elemental as another 5th level

I was trying to keep the elements out of the 4th and 5th level so that each archetype wouldn't infringe on the others in the slightest. What would you suggest I remove for Primal Savagery? I was think mending or Friends but I'm not sure. I was aiming for variety and I thought that maybe 4 damaging cantrips was enough

[thegreatone5224]

I hope you can take the time to review things again.

I've taken your feedback and in the process or introducing the theme I changed a few things to make it more thematic.

The base class has undergone a change when it comes to spell casting. Elemental Body: Dual Casting was replaced with Elemental Body: Primal Energy.

Air has undergone a drastic change and most of it features have been changed or replaced.
Earth has had very minor changes but the 14th level feature was changed.
Fire is now finished with its first draft.

[nickl_2000]

Hey again, I'm taking a look again at the updated version :smallbiggrin: I do like the mod so far. The class is much more clear overall, and I feel the balance is getting closer too. However, as I read it again, I am seeing one significant issue. How does the class deal damage normally? You get spells per short rest, but where it the go to damage dealer for the class? To explain a little more if it is needed. As a Warlock I always have EB, a fighter always attacks, a wizard has his cantrips. What does this class cast on normal attacks? Do they use cantrips? Do they attack with their weapons?

Compressed Spell
This one bothers me, I think it's because you are giving higher level spell slots than you should have access to. Also, the class is based on a half-warlock chassis, and by level 20 you will get 4 more spells than a Warlock gets. I'm not sure how I would adjust it or if it would be better just to replace it with something else. Let me look at other classes 11th level abilities and see what I can come up with.

Elemental Body: True Form
This makes sense to me and feel appropriate. It's taken from the Moon Druid, but it comes 10 levels later so it works out perfectly fine with me. You may want to point out that the Element Conversion ability doesn't work for this (I assume it doesn't).


Light as Air
Thanks on removing the hide. I still wish this was a higher level ability so it didn't come before Rogues get it, but it's better. I wonder if instead you could take the other level 1 feature of evasive and boost it somewhat then drop this feature. Maybe you could make Evasive available more often (int mod times per short rest) and have it be a reaction instead. Maybe this instead

Air Shield
When someone makes an attack against you, you may use a reaction to encompass yourself in a whirlwind of air. This shield of air last until the beginning of your next turn and causes all attacks against you to be made at an disadvantage. This ability can be used up to your int mod times and recharges after a long or short rest.

Air Guide
This is incredibly situation and really kind of underpowered. It would be helpful in a water campaign to help out your boat in sailing, but there won't be much wind in a dungeon. You would be better off adding in something else here.


Unarmored Defense - Thanks for changing this one. I believe that it really helps the balance.

Elemental Body: Earth - Not a big deal, but this and enhanced strength would make you an incredible grappler class (especially with a single level dip into Rogue).

Exploding Spell - This one worried me, and then I saw that you could only use it twice per rest. So, I'm good now :)




As I'm reading it, here are the roles that I see for the subclasses
-Air, dex based fighter who is using finesse weapons to lightly move around a battlefield
-Earth, the rock, a strength based character who is solid and unmoving on the battlefield
-Fire, the cannon, Can't take as much abuse, but sure dishes it out.
-Water TBD

The issue is that I don't see the damage dealing for either Air or Earth. How do these subclasses really do normal damage? They can't attack decently since they only get simple weapons and only 1 attack. Shocking grasp is not a good base spell for damage, and Zephyr Strike isn't even a cantrip. I think Booming Blade would be a decent choice for Air (more Zephyr strike to level 1 and remove longstrider). That would give them a good damage choice.

Earth only has magic stone as a damaging option (which kind of sucks in comparison). So they need something else instead. Personally, I would give them some sort of stone based unarmed attack. They can turn their fists into stone making them do 1d6+str damage on attack (changing to 1d8+str at level 10), and then they get a second attack at level 5 or 6. They still are pretty limited in their standard attack actions, but they can compete with the other half casters now.

[thegreatone5224]

Thanks for taking another look!


Hey again, I'm taking a look again at the updated version :smallbiggrin: I do like the mod so far. The class is much more clear overall, and I feel the balance is getting closer too. However, as I read it again, I am seeing one significant issue. How does the class deal damage normally? You get spells per short rest, but where it the go to damage dealer for the class? To explain a little more if it is needed. As a Warlock I always have EB, a fighter always attacks, a wizard has his cantrips. What does this class cast on normal attacks? Do they use cantrips? Do they attack with their weapons? Normally I would say with cantrips. When your element is less effective then you would switch to a weapon of some kind.


Compressed Spell
This one bothers me, I think it's because you are giving higher level spell slots than you should have access to. Also, the class is based on a half-warlock chassis, and by level 20 you will get 4 more spells than a Warlock gets. I'm not sure how I would adjust it or if it would be better just to replace it with something else. Let me look at other classes 11th level abilities and see what I can come up with.
I literally copied the 11th level feature from Warlock and removed the part where you get to pick the spell appropriate for those levels, lol.


Elemental Body: True Form
This makes sense to me and feel appropriate. It's taken from the Moon Druid, but it comes 10 levels later so it works out perfectly fine with me. You may want to point out that the Element Conversion ability doesn't work for this (I assume it doesn't).
I'm confused on what made you think that that would work? Element Conversion drops the downside to Elemental Body: Primal. Elemental Body: Primal just allows the casting of spells outside of your spell list.


Light as Air
Thanks on removing the hide. I still wish this was a higher level ability so it didn't come before Rogues get it, but it's better. I wonder if instead you could take the other level 1 feature of evasive and boost it somewhat then drop this feature. Maybe you could make Evasive available more often (int mod times per short rest) and have it be a reaction instead. Maybe this instead

Air Shield
When someone makes an attack against you, you may use a reaction to encompass yourself in a whirlwind of air. This shield of air last until the beginning of your next turn and causes all attacks against you to be made at an disadvantage. This ability can be used up to your int mod times and recharges after a long or short rest.
This is something to be considered. Maybe I could add Dash and Disengage as options to evasive and replace Light as Air for Air Shield?


Air Guide
This is incredibly situation and really kind of underpowered. It would be helpful in a water campaign to help out your boat in sailing, but there won't be much wind in a dungeon. You would be better off adding in something else here.
I was aiming to make the 6th level a ribbon of sorts across each element. Air having this, Earth having situational advantage, and fire having the rare and inconsistent damage increase. This ability is quite situational but it actually counters most wind based spells or at least I feel it does, lol.


As I'm reading it, here are the roles that I see for the subclasses
-Air, dex based fighter who is using finesse weapons to lightly move around a battlefield
-Earth, the rock, a strength based character who is solid and unmoving on the battlefield
-Fire, the cannon, Can't take as much abuse, but sure dishes it out.
-Water TBD
These are pretty much exactly what I was aiming for. The class is meant to showcase immense diversity all while sharing the same set of core abilities. No two elements represent the same thing so neither should the cores within the character. Also, water is going to be more indirect/support/diplomatic. Not really sure how I will catch this feeling yet but that is what I will be aiming for.


The issue is that I don't see the damage dealing for either Air or Earth. How do these subclasses really do normal damage? They can't attack decently since they only get simple weapons and only 1 attack. Shocking grasp is not a good base spell for damage, and Zephyr Strike isn't even a cantrip. I think Booming Blade would be a decent choice for Air (more Zephyr strike to level 1 and remove longstrider). That would give them a good damage choice. What book is booming blade from? I have been using PHB and XGE for spell choices. Good catch on Zephyr Strike, I moved it to level one replacing longstrider and added booming blade.


Earth only has magic stone as a damaging option (which kind of sucks in comparison). So they need something else instead. Personally, I would give them some sort of stone based unarmed attack. They can turn their fists into stone making them do 1d6+str damage on attack (changing to 1d8+str at level 10), and then they get a second attack at level 5 or 6. They still are pretty limited in their standard attack actions, but they can compete with the other half casters now. This was something I had considered but right now their primary damage is dealt through weapon attacks. I wanted to incorporate unarmed attacks but had a hard time doing so with the current setup. Maybe it could be added to enhanced strength which would more or less make sense.

[nickl_2000]

Thanks for taking another look!
I literally copied the 11th level feature from Warlock and removed the part where you get to pick the spell appropriate for those levels, lol.

Fair enough, then you need to adjust the levels for the elementalist.




I'm confused on what made you think that that would work? Element Conversion drops the downside to Elemental Body: Primal. Elemental Body: Primal just allows the casting of spells outside of your spell list.

Then nevermind, don't worry about it.



This is something to be considered. Maybe I could add Dash and Disengage as options to evasive and replace Light as Air for Air Shield?


You clearly want dash and disengage in there. If that's the case, then ignore my comments. Giving that option is powerful enough that you don't need the added power of my suggestion.



I was aiming to make the 6th level a ribbon of sorts across each element. Air having this, Earth having situational advantage, and fire having the rare and inconsistent damage increase. This ability is quite situational but it actually counters most wind based spells or at least I feel it does, lol.


Advantage against Frightened and Charm from Earth isn't really a ribbon ability. It may not come up often, but it will certainly help in combat when it does. The Fire choice is almost solely a combat ability. Given the comparison, the air is much, much weaker.

What if you gave the Air guide and this as well
Whispers in the Wind
You may whisper a short message (50 words or less) into the wind. A cool breeze blows away from you towards the designated target, when it reaches them they feel the breeze and hear your message whispered to them. Anyone within 10 feet of them can feel an odd cool breeze blowing against them.



What book is booming blade from? I have been using PHB and XGE for spell choices. Good catch on Zephyr Strike, I moved it to level one replacing longstrider and added booming blade.

It's from SCAG (Sword Coast Adventure Guide). It's extremely thematic and a really good spell too. I would definitely look it up and use it.




This was something I had considered but right now their primary damage is dealt through weapon attacks. I wanted to incorporate unarmed attacks but had a hard time doing so with the current setup. Maybe it could be added to enhanced strength which would more or less make sense.

It doesn't have to be, but if you plan on Earth's primary damage dealer being weapon attacks you need to boost them in some way around level 5. Whether that is a second attack, bonus damage, or something else, they need some boost to continue to be competitive.

[thegreatone5224]

Fair enough, then you need to adjust the levels for the elementalist.
Not sure what you mean?


You clearly want dash and disengage in there. If that's the case, then ignore my comments. Giving that option is powerful enough that you don't need the added power of my suggestion.
The main thing I'm going for is, when you think of using the power of air to your advantage, what do you think of? For me it is a combination of evasion and speed. What do you think of?


Advantage against Frightened and Charm from Earth isn't really a ribbon ability. It may not come up often, but it will certainly help in combat when it does. The Fire choice is almost solely a combat ability. Given the comparison, the air is much, much weaker.

What if you gave the Air guide and this as well
Whispers in the Wind
You may whisper a short message (50 words or less) into the wind. A cool breeze blows away from you towards the designated target, when it reaches them they feel the breeze and hear your message whispered to them. Anyone within 10 feet of them can feel an odd cool breeze blowing against them.
Oh I like that idea. Though I'm a little hesitant due to other classes not generally giving more than one ability at any given feature level outside of the first.


It doesn't have to be, but if you plan on Earth's primary damage dealer being weapon attacks you need to boost them in some way around level 5. Whether that is a second attack, bonus damage, or something else, they need some boost to continue to be competitive. What changes would you suggest? I will be playtesting this elemental core tonight and the DM understands that there will have to be changes in some way from time to time as we play.

[nickl_2000]

Not sure what you mean?
[\QUOTE]
I mean that according to your chart at the beginning you only can cast up to 5th level slots. So, you shouldn't get a bonus 9th level slot ever. Are the Slot Levels off in your top chart?

[QUOTE=thegreatone5224;22963803]
The main thing I'm going for is, when you think of using the power of air to your advantage, what do you think of? For me it is a combination of evasion and speed. What do you think of?
[\QUOTE]

It could be, it could also be creating a tornado, it could be an air shield. It could be a strategic gust of air knocking an opponent prone/away. My suggestion with the Air Shield was going the way of using wind to distract/deflect attacks.

[QUOTE=thegreatone5224;22963803]
Oh I like that idea. Though I'm a little hesitant due to other classes not generally giving more than one ability at any given feature level outside of the first.
[\QUOTE]

Then I would go with my ability of Whispers instead, but I think that is just because it is more likely to be used. At least in my opinion it isn't a big deal to give two things to air. They are both out of combat utilities that together don't equal the other subclasses abilities.

[QUOTE=thegreatone5224;22963803]
What changes would you suggest? I will be playtesting this elemental core tonight and the DM understands that there will have to be changes in some way from time to time as we play.
1d6 extra bludgeoning damage at level 1-5
2d6 6-11
3d6 11-15
4d6 16-20 only usable once per turn.

Kind of a reduced Sneak attack to give them a primary damage dealer option.

[thegreatone5224]

I mean that according to your chart at the beginning you only can cast up to 5th level slots. So, you shouldn't get a bonus 9th level slot ever. Are the Slot Levels off in your top chart?
The chart is saying that any spell you cast is of 5th level starting from 9th level onwards. Compressed Spell acts similar to Mystic Arcanum in allows the casting of higher level spells. Below are the side by side comparisons of the two.


At 11th level, your patron bestows upon you a magical secret called an arcanum. Choose one 6th-level spell from the warlock spell list as this arcanum. You can cast your arcanum spell once without expending a spell slot. You must finish a long rest before you can do so again.

At high levels, you gain more warlock spells of your choice that can be cast in this way: one 7th-level spell at 13th level, one 8th-level spell at 15th level, and one 9th-level spell at 17th level. You regain all uses of your Mystic Arcanum when you finish a long rest.


At 11th level, you are able to compress the power from your elemental core to a whole new level greatly increasing their efficency. You can cast an elemental core spell as a 6th-level spell once without expending a spell slot. You must finish a long rest before you can do so again.

At higher levels, you can cast more spells this way: one 7th-level spell at 13th, one 8th-level spell at 15th level, and one 9th-level spell at 17th level. You regain all uses of Compressed Spell when you finish a long rest.

As you can see the wording between the two are pretty much identical. This is why I'm so confused as to what you were trying to say.


It could be, it could also be creating a tornado, it could be an air shield. It could be a strategic gust of air knocking an opponent prone/away. My suggestion with the Air Shield was going the way of using wind to distract/deflect attacks.
I will have to think more on this.


Then I would go with my ability of Whispers instead, but I think that is just because it is more likely to be used. At least in my opinion it isn't a big deal to give two things to air. They are both out of combat utilities that together don't equal the other subclasses abilities.
I see. I like the idea of both of our abilities so I'll have to further consider things.


1d6 extra damage at level 1-5
2d6 6-11
3d6 11-15
4d6 16-20 only usable once per turn.
I think this is reasonable. The characters we are playing with start at level 5 so this should be fine. I don't think that building this into Enhanced strength should pose any issues.

[nickl_2000]

The chart is saying that any spell you cast is of 5th level starting from 9th level onwards. Compressed Spell acts similar to Mystic Arcanum in allows the casting of higher level spells. Below are the side by side comparisons of the two.

As you can see the wording between the two are pretty much identical. This is why I'm so confused as to what you were trying to say.


Well I'll be, I completely missed that with Warlock, I thought the Warlock chart actually made the spells go up to level 9 on the chart itself. My apologies on confusing you when I just didn't know the Warlock well enough.

[thegreatone5224]

Thanks for all the feedback, I really do appreciate it! I'll be sure to let you know when the 1st draft for water is done. Meanwhile. if you have any ideas for it I'd love to hear it :smallsmile:

Edit: I added the unarmed attack as a once per turn thing.

[nickl_2000]

So, when it comes to Water you have a primary attack in Frostbite and Chill Touch. Although I would consider giving them potent spellcasting at level 10. It isn't a support spell, but it isn't uncommon on support classes to give this ability.

Put down some thoughts (not suggesting all of them, just different ideas in my mind that aren't balanced).

I don't know how it would work, but I like the idea of smaller damage that eats away at someone (I'm thinking of the power of a flowing river being able to carve huge canyons).

Level 1
-The obvious one is to get water breathing and a swim speed
-As a reaction you can sooth/prevent fire damage giving someone resistance to fire damage?



Elemental Body: Water
Starting at 2nd level, you unleash the power of your core turning into a psuedo-elemental. Your entire body becomes as transparent as water distorting what can be seen on the other side.
-If someone if close the gain a certain amount of temp HP that lasts until you revert from the form


Level 6 - Ribbon Ability
-an ability that assists with the amount of health regained when using HD during a short rest?
-be able to instantly put out a fire?
-flood a section of a battlefield putting out all fires and making the ground difficult terrain?

Level 10
-Potent Spellcasting
At 10th level, you gain resistance to cold damage.

Level 14
-Maybe a teleportation like the shadow monk? You can teleport as a bonus action from one puddle to another up to 60 feet away

Level 18

[thegreatone5224]

Hey everyone. It has been some time since I updated this post. I've recently changed a few things and I'd love for you all to take a look at it and let me know what you think.

-Enhanced strength no longer applies strictly to unarmed attacks
-Fire now has medium armor profiency
-Some work on water has been done but remains largely untested.

Any and all input it welcome. Thanks!

[thegreatone5224]

Does any one have an opinion they would like to share? I'm fine with both good and bad as both can lead to a more well rounded class.