Help regarding Warlock and Legendary Resistance at higher level play

[Asmerv]

Hi everyone,

I wanted to seek opinions of experienced players regarding higher level play. Specifically, I'm playing a Raven Queen Warlock and just hit level 11. I'm at a loss on how to deal with creatures with Legendary Resistance and contribute to the fight.

I now have three spell slots per combat. So even in the ideal situation of landing all of my spells, I would simply burn through LR but not accomplish anything beyond wasting three turns. The only other caster in my party is a Fire Draconic Sorcerer, and he doesn't use spells that are worth burning LR on (mostly Dex for half spells).

This leaves me with a few options, each with its own issues:
1) Deal with minions. However, the Sorcerer is more capable at this task, and usually throws an empowered fireball with a +5 bonus and clears the minions out easily. Any survivors are hastily cleared by our Ranger or with Eldritch Blast - not worth following up with another spell.

2) Rely on Eldritch Blast. I do have Agonizing Blast and I just picked up Repelling Blast. Given the recent level-up, this is actually good damage and control. However, the party Paladin is now smiting for at least twice the damage/turn and can keep doing that for at least 4-5 turns, so straight damage feels lackluster.

I've been thinking of switching out for a couple spells that force saves every turn, such as Sickening Radiance, but I'm worried about being able to keep the enemy within the area.

Another alternative is to pick spells that affect both the boss and the minions at the same time. Fear, Hypnotic Pattern etc. seem good for this purpose, but I'm worried about being able to position effectively for these spells to actually pull it off. I do have and use Synaptic Static.

Is this normal? I do have much more utility out of combat so perhaps its unrealistic for me to expect to be as useful in combat.

Any advice is appreciated, thanks in advance.

PS. I'm very strongly considering Soul Cage for Mystic Arcanum 6th level due to flavor reasons, but I can see the value in a spell like Scatter for keeping enemies in AoE.

[Angelalex242]

Hi everyone,

I wanted to seek opinions of experienced players regarding higher level play. Specifically, I'm playing a Raven Queen Warlock and just hit level 11. I'm at a loss on how to deal with creatures with Legendary Resistance and contribute to the fight.

I now have three spell slots per combat. So even in the ideal situation of landing all of my spells, I would simply burn through LR but not accomplish anything beyond wasting three turns. The only other caster in my party is a Fire Draconic Sorcerer, and he doesn't use spells that are worth burning LR on (mostly Dex for half spells).

This leaves me with a few options, each with its own issues:
1) Deal with minions. However, the Sorcerer is more capable at this task, and usually throws an empowered fireball with a +5 bonus and clears the minions out easily. Any survivors are hastily cleared by our Ranger or with Eldritch Blast - not worth following up with another spell.

2) Rely on Eldritch Blast. I do have Agonizing Blast and I just picked up Repelling Blast. Given the recent level-up, this is actually good damage and control. However, the party Paladin is now smiting for at least twice the damage/turn and can keep doing that for at least 4-5 turns, so straight damage feels lackluster.

I've been thinking of switching out for a couple spells that force saves every turn, such as Sickening Radiance, but I'm worried about being able to keep the enemy within the area.

Another alternative is to pick spells that affect both the boss and the minions at the same time. Fear, Hypnotic Pattern etc. seem good for this purpose, but I'm worried about being able to position effectively for these spells to actually pull it off. I do have and use Synaptic Static.

Is this normal? I do have much more utility out of combat so perhaps its unrealistic for me to expect to be as useful in combat.

Any advice is appreciated, thanks in advance.

PS. I'm very strongly considering Soul Cage for Mystic Arcanum 6th level due to flavor reasons, but I can see the value in a spell like Scatter for keeping enemies in AoE.

Huh. In our campaign, the DM burns enemy legendary resistance on the first 3 failed saves, regardless of what they were. That makes direct damage spells more useful for burning through legendaries before launching save or suck/save or die.

[Illven]

Huh. In our campaign, the DM burns enemy legendary resistance on the first 3 failed saves, regardless of what they were. That makes direct damage spells more useful for burning through legendaries before launching save or suck/save or die.

Technically it's the enemies choice to save or not.

Used it recently in a game where the boss kept choosing to legendary resist concentration saving throws to keep half the party locked down.

[Blood of Gaea]

Combine Eldritch Blast with your sickening radiance idea, push/pull them back into the radius if they leave.

And yes, this is normal, casting focused Warlocks get hit pretty hard by Legendary Resistance and have a hard time dealing with it without another party member who can stack on save-or-sucks.

Honestly, consider asking at least your Paladin if they're willing to use a save-or-suck smite, there's a few decent ones. Even if they only burn one Resistance, that makes your life a lot easier. Blinding Smite and Banishing Smite are good for this.

[Asmerv]

Honestly, consider asking at least your Paladin if they're willing to use a save-or-suck smite, there's a few decent ones. Even if they only burn one Resistance, that makes your life a lot easier. Blinding Smite and Banishing Smite are good for this.

Thanks for this. I'll pass it along. Unfortunately it seems the way these smites are designed interfere with the self-buffs he likes to cast like Shield of Faith.

[Blood of Gaea]

Thanks for this. I'll pass it along. Unfortunately it seems the way these smites are designed interfere with the self-buffs he likes to cast like Shield of Faith.
They do. You could also bring it up to the Ranger, who might have something handy to use as well. Ensnaring Strike (1st level) can be a cheap solution for this. The Sorcerer also probably has at least one spell that will work as well.

Of course, as you stated earlier, the Ranger and Sorcerer might be too busy dealing with minions to help out here, at least to start.

[Unoriginal]

It might be a wild thought, but if you don't like the options you have right now, maybe you could invest in a ranged weapon with some poison?

Or maybe try to find a wand of fear or the like?

[The1exile]

I’ve played a warlock from 1 to current level 19 in my campaign. We have a party of a paladin, monk, barbarian and tempest cleric, so also not heavy on the status debuffs. Here are my tips:

1) first, realise that legendary resistance is there precisely so you can’t cheese the boss fight with a single spell. It’s cool to be able to turn the tides of a fight with a well placed fear spell... but not so much when every fight is hitting a dodging ball of hit points trapped in the corner that started out as an adult red dragon. If you have agonising blast, at this level your ranged dpr should be 3d10+5, which is very respectable and almost never blocked. Yeah, it’s not as satisfying, but sometimes the paladin needs to feel like the big man.

2) surely these fights don’t take place in a vacuum. You say the sorcerer blasts the mooks, but what about henchmen or lieutenants that don’t die to one fireball? A hold monster or dominate person on one of them could be huge!

3) you mention sickening radiance, but for me the best midpoint spell from Xanathar's is Synaptic static, which could maybe force a use of resistance for the bane effect, and still does respectable AoE damage.

4) if you are set on ccing through the legendary resistance, don’t do it alone. Talk to your party - I often have a whispered conversation with the cleric between our turns - since after all even if you forced one resistance a round, the fight would probably be over (and you’d be out of spell slots) before you got to do your cool thing.

[rbstr]

You forcing them to burn legendary resistances is a small victory in its own right since it can help other people stick theirs.

Even taking legendary resistances out of the picture it's always been my experience that boss monsters are hard to stick with a save or suck, and I'd take that into account with my spell selection for that kind of foe.
Synaptic Static is potentially really good for this. It's save for half but has a pretty strong concentration-free debuff if it does stick. It's also good against minnions
Sickening Radiance is also potentially a good option, but yeah, hard to keep a boss in it.

[Asmerv]

I’ve played a warlock from 1 to current level 19 in my campaign. We have a party of a paladin, monk, barbarian and tempest cleric, so also not heavy on the status debuffs. Here are my tips:

1) first, realise that legendary resistance is there precisely so you can’t cheese the boss fight with a single spell. It’s cool to be able to turn the tides of a fight with a well placed fear spell... but not so much when every fight is hitting a dodging ball of hit points trapped in the corner that started out as an adult red dragon. If you have agonising blast, at this level your ranged dpr should be 3d10+5, which is very respectable and almost never blocked. Yeah, it’s not as satisfying, but sometimes the paladin needs to feel like the big man.

2) surely these fights don’t take place in a vacuum. You say the sorcerer blasts the mooks, but what about henchmen or lieutenants that don’t die to one fireball? A hold monster or dominate person on one of them could be huge!

3) you mention sickening radiance, but for me the best midpoint spell from Xanathar's is Synaptic static, which could maybe force a use of resistance for the bane effect, and still does respectable AoE damage.

4) if you are set on ccing through the legendary resistance, don’t do it alone. Talk to your party - I often have a whispered conversation with the cleric between our turns - since after all even if you forced one resistance a round, the fight would probably be over (and you’d be out of spell slots) before you got to do your cool thing.

Thanks! You're right about Nr.1 as the Paladin is spending resources. We haven't really had extended engagements recently, but in such a scenario I'd pull ahead.

2) I've thrown out a few well-placed Banishments that have certainly aided the party a lot. Thanks for reminding me - taking out higher-powered, smaller number of henchmen is something really no one else in the party can do.

3) Yup! A fan of this spell. Honestly not sure what I'd be doing half the time if I was playing pre-Xanathar's. It feels bad to throw an AoE spell on a single monster sometimes, but it is still good damage.

4) This is mainly the problem. There's really no one else in the party that throws out debuffs. However, Blood of Gaea gave me some good ideas.


You forcing them to burn legendary resistances is a small victory in its own right since it can help other people stick theirs.

Even taking legendary resistances out of the picture it's always been my experience that boss monsters are hard to stick with a save or suck, and I'd take that into account with my spell selection for that kind of foe.
Synaptic Static is potentially really good for this. It's save for half but has a pretty strong concentration-free debuff if it does stick. It's also good against minnions
Sickening Radiance is also potentially a good option, but yeah, hard to keep a boss in it.

Burning LR doesn't feel like a victory when my spell slots = number of LR and there's no one else really gunning for a debuff. However, you're 100% right on your second point: unless you somehow know which save to target, these spells are hard to land, period.

General consensus seems to be:
A) Stick to Synaptic Static
B) Work with the party - even Rangers and Paladins have good options to force LR
C) Might have another niche such as taking out larger, more powerful mooks.

I'll try Sickening Radiance next time if I don't have anything else taking up concentration and see how that goes too.

Thanks everyone.

[Dr. Cliché]

Why not use spells that don't allow a saving throw?

e.g. Hex would give you a nice boost to damage and can penalise one of the boss's ability checks, all without ever allowing him a save.

Spiritual Weapon (I believe the Raven Queen gets it?) can do some damage each turn and isn't even a Concentration spell.

[A Fat Dragon]

The next time you get a new Cantrip, take a damaging one that requires a save (Create Bonfire is a pretty solid choice for his: Area Effect, Solid Damage, and I’m pretty sure it’s a Dex save).
If the DM doesn’t want the monster to keep taking constant damage each turn while all you have to do is keep casting cantrips. At some point, the DM will start having to burn Legendary Resistances, or they’ll be getting pretty beat up. Once that happens, all it is now is a matter of Nova-ing them.

Either that, or pick up Contagion. Three saves, and awful effects if you fail? Pretty solid Legendary Resistance killer.

[Motorskills]

The Bard in our party occasionally expresses angst that I use Legendary Resistance against his stuff.


I explain that I choose to resist his stuff, because his character is the one casting dangerous spells!

It's not personal to the player.

And to be fair, the player does get it, I'm sure it just feels sucky to have your best stuff fizzle out.

[Ganymede]

I don't get why it matters. Whether it is by you or by your teammates, legendary resistance needs to be defeated.

If you spend three actions chewing through its legendary resistance, you are doing the exact opposite of "not contributing;" you are setting up the boss to be jacked up by one of your teammates.

[Asmerv]

Why not use spells that don't allow a saving throw?

e.g. Hex would give you a nice boost to damage and can penalise one of the boss's ability checks, all without ever allowing him a save.

Spiritual Weapon (I believe the Raven Queen gets it?) can do some damage each turn and isn't even a Concentration spell.

I carry around scrolls of Hex and Spiritual Weapon and do get great mileage out of them. Spiritual weapon has been hit or miss. Often, the foe is out of range or I have a competing bonus action. Getting both out is very high DPR and might be useful to focus on. Haven't found either to be worth a spell slot however, hence the scrolls.

Hex for Int + Major Image could be cool!



The Bard in our party occasionally expresses angst that I use Legendary Resistance against his stuff.


I explain that I choose to resist his stuff, because his character is the one casting dangerous spells!

It's not personal to the player.

And to be fair, the player does get it, I'm sure it just feels sucky to have your best stuff fizzle out.

Of course, and I don't resent the DM or anything. It does feel sucky though, so I have been avoiding save spells entirely, hence the thread :D



I don't get why it matters. Whether it is by you or by your teammates, legendary resistance needs to be defeated.

If you spend three actions chewing through its legendary resistance, you are doing the exact opposite of "not contributing;" you are setting up the boss to be jacked up by one of your teammates.

Haven't found this to be the case. The last boss we killed, it didn't even use a single LR. I think it again comes down to my party's composition: everyone else is content doing damage, and lots of it, through weapons etc.

[Ganymede]

Haven't found this to be the case. The last boss we killed, it didn't even use a single LR.

It sounds like your problem in the OP solved itself.

[Asmerv]

It sounds like your problem in the OP solved itself.

Hahaha perhaps you're right. Maybe it's just better to avoid save spells entirely in my circumstance.

[RSP]

It seems like you're assuming, without the LR, your spells would stick, which probably isn't the case with big bads at that level. As others have suggested, sticking to targeting minions or just direct damage is probably best.

I've been in groups with multiple casters where you can try to burn thru the LR, but it's still a gamble: you might have one of three spells get thru the normal save on higher level bigs. If the bad rolls well, you've all just "wasted" your turns and spell slots.

But keep in mind, this is by design. Those creatures aren't meant to be so easily defeated.

[Asmerv]

It seems like you're assuming, without the LR, your spells would stick, which probably isn't the case with big bads at that level. As others have suggested, sticking to targeting minions or just direct damage is probably best.

I've been in groups with multiple casters where you can try to burn thru the LR, but it's still a gamble: you might have one of three spells get thru the normal save on higher level bigs. If the bad rolls well, you've all just "wasted" your turns and spell slots.

But keep in mind, this is by design. Those creatures aren't meant to be so easily defeated.

I think you're right. Which means defeating a 'boss' is easiest done through committing to a single strategy: Either focus on damage or burn through LR and land a debilitating effect. Mixing the two seems ineffectual.

Given my party, the former is the easier approach. Thankfully, as others mentioned, between Hex, Spiritual Weapon, Summon Greater Demon etc. there's plenty of DPR that can be pumped out. So, if there's no more minions to clear out or lieutenants to disable, DPR is the way to go and not Save or Suck.

[mephnick]

Technically it's the enemies choice to save or not.

Technically yes, but I have them use them immediately unless there's a reason they wouldn't. Otherwise it smacks of DM metagaming. The monster isn't thinking "hmm this is only a second level spell..nah won't use my innate resistance I may or may not even be aware of."

..unless it is. But that should be very rare.

[Davrix]

Combine Eldritch Blast with your sickening radiance idea, push/pull them back into the radius if they leave.

And yes, this is normal, casting focused Warlocks get hit pretty hard by Legendary Resistance and have a hard time dealing with it without another party member who can stack on save-or-sucks.

Honestly, consider asking at least your Paladin if they're willing to use a save-or-suck smite, there's a few decent ones. Even if they only burn one Resistance, that makes your life a lot easier. Blinding Smite and Banishing Smite are good for this.

If he is conquest have him use wrathful smite. The boss will eat every Resistance he can to not get hit by that thing.

[Blood of Gaea]

If he is conquest have him use wrathful smite. The boss will eat every Resistance he can to not get hit by that thing.
Blinding Smite is pretty good too.

[Davrix]

Blinding Smite is pretty good too.

yea it is just saying the fear effect in the conquest aura is devastating for anything effected by it.


Technically yes, but I have them use them immediately unless there's a reason they wouldn't. Otherwise it smacks of DM metagaming. The monster isn't thinking "hmm this is only a second level spell..nah won't use my innate resistance I may or may not even be aware of."

..unless it is. But that should be very rare.

The problem is then you become predictable.

To counter this i would also say, depending on the creature. They are not auto dumb. A vampire might be thinking. Oh the magic missile is something I can shrug off easily but the spell trying to banish me or paralyze me is something I need to block. I've always viewed it as they have a split second to feel the effect or see it coming to decide if they use it. Though to be fair if they don't see the spell coming, like a greater Invis caster that he didn't know was there I usually wont let them use the reaction. Sometimes I roll a Dex check to see if the monster can react to the surprise but it just depends on which one I am using at the time.

[Unoriginal]

Something one need to consider is that having a legendary resistance means the monster is, quite literally, legendary. Or has the potential to be so, at least.

You're not much of a legend if any punk can shutdown you with one spell.

[Asmerv]

I find it interesting that there's no similar mechanic for avoiding damage.

With advantage and 2 attacks/turn, a paladin is likely to crit-smite the legendary creature to oblivion, yet there's no mirroring mechanic.

[Crgaston]

I find it interesting that there's no similar mechanic for avoiding damage.

With advantage and 2 attacks/turn, a paladin is likely to crit-smite the legendary creature to oblivion, yet there's no mirroring mechanic.

There is an old saying...
“Nothing is immune to Holy Avenger.”

[Blood of Gaea]

There is an old saying...
“Nothing is immune to Holy Avenger.”
I mean, you could cast Invulnerability. :smallamused:

[Greywander]

Technically yes, but I have them use them immediately unless there's a reason they wouldn't. Otherwise it smacks of DM metagaming. The monster isn't thinking "hmm this is only a second level spell..nah won't use my innate resistance I may or may not even be aware of."

..unless it is. But that should be very rare.
I don't think Legendary Resistance is an actual thing in-universe. It's not that the creature has some sort of limited resistance that they can draw from to shrug off effects. My interpretation was that it was more of a cinematic tool to prolong a boss fight and prevent it from ending early due to a bad saving throw. Basically, rather than being some innate ability of the creature, it's more of a rules-sanctioned DM fudgery. It's the rules outright telling the DM, "Hey, if the boss fails its save, you can say that they didn't, but don't do that more than three times or its not really fair to the players."

In fact, I don't know that the DM is even required to tell the players when a boss uses their Legendary Resistance. All the players need to know is that the boss succeeded on their saving throw.

This does, however, effect when a Legendary Resistance might get used. If it actually is an innate ability of the creature and they choose to resist the effect, then they'll do so in the most tactical manner, resisting the most debilitating effects and allowing the less harmful ones to succeed. If it's the DM (not the creature) that's making the choice, then the DM can choose to use Legendary Resistance in the most cinematic manner, to make the fight feel epic and cool but also choosing not to use it when it would also feel epic and cool.

[RSP]

In fact, I don't know that the DM is even required to tell the players when a boss uses their Legendary Resistance. All the players need to know is that the boss succeeded on their saving throw.

I've always just assumed this was how it was played: DM says "it passed" not "well it burns a Legendary Resistance." All the more to not knowing if it's passing due to good saves, or to burning its resistances.

[Angelalex242]

I've always just assumed this was how it was played: DM says "it passed" not "well it burns a Legendary Resistance." All the more to not knowing if it's passing due to good saves, or to burning its resistances.

Actually, my GM tells us when "It chooses to succeed." I appreciate the tactical thinking he encourages by doing this.

This is actually important due to the high numbers of ancient dragons we fight...like all the damn time!