building a very hard to kill character what feats shouldI get?

[yarrowdeathbloo]

I'm going be playing a human warrior (the ua one) with the shadow template what feats will help me be extremely difficult to kill?

[Karl Aegis]

Darkstalker, I guess. Not being detected is about the best you're going to do with just feats.

[Selene Sparks]

I'm going be playing a human warrior (the ua one) with the shadow template what feats will help me be extremely difficult to kill?I'm sorry to say that, if that's your objective, you're going to have an extremely uphill battle with this, because the system itself is structured in such a way to render that not a very good option without gishing(that is, being a magic fighter who uses magic to boost your melee combat abilities) or, to a lesser extent, the Tome of Battle classes, as well as the fact "being hard to kill" is not an effective combat strategy, because the bottom line is enemies still need to be put down and "being hard to kill" doesn't really contribute to that, and UA warriors are a class that is very much not good at that in particular(or, to be completely frank, much at all, considering they're basically just the fighter with another name, and the fighter is one of the weakest classes in the entire game), because feats are very much not as good as class features. All of these problems are exacerbated by the fact that, in D&D, being good at things is expensive, both in terms of wealth and in build resources, so for every resource you're investing in "being hard to kill," those are resources not going into more useful realms of play.

That said, should you really want this as your concept, and sticking with solely within the restrictions above, there's still a few ways to go about it. First, you need to take Power Attack, because it's vital to be able to put out damage at all. Then you're going to be wanting to take Martial Study(from Tome of Battle) at least three times to pick up, at levels 2, 6, and 10, the maneuvers Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, and Mind Over Body. This is because having good saves is more important than HP, as most monsters can't do enough damage to put you down immediately, especially if you have your party supporting you with CC or BFC spells, but a save-or-die/save-or-lose will still ruin your day. You're also probably going to want to pick up enough Iron Heart maneuvers to grab Iron Heart Surge. Since you're not a martial adept, you get the maneuvers later and can only throw each out once per combat, but it's better than nothing. Other things you can do to buff your saves are options like the Steadfast Determination feat, which lets you boost your will saves and give you more protection against fortitude-targetting effects, but as a martial character, real defense is going to be coming from your wealth (https://www.dropbox.com/s/crltfrafw418d1v/ShoppingList.pdf?dl=0) by level (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items).

As a final point, although I'd normally avoid going too far outside what's asked, this is a mistake I see often enough that I feel I should point it out: Templates, for the most part, are bad. In D&D, your power comes from levels. The Shadow template specifically has LA 2, so you're coming into the game two levels lower than the rest of the party without having a lower ECL, thus meaning you won't ever catch up in level. That is a huge deal, giving you at least a -2 to hit over what you'd expect(or more, depending on what you'd be spending those levels on), notably lower HP and saves, at least one feat less, and so on. If you're really attached to the dark-aligned fluff of it, or really want stealth bonuses, and have your heart set on it, at the very least I'd like to recommend the Dark template from Tome of Magic, which gives Hide in Plain Sight, is native to the Plane of Shadows, and only has an LA of one. If you're using templates at all, make sure to be using the LA buyoff rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) to make sure you're not permanently crippled by the lost levels.

To go into much more detail, we need to know more. What other variant rules are you using? Are flaws okay? What's your party like? What level are you starting at? What are your stats? Are you multiclassing at all? Are any sources forbidden? And, most importantly, what exactly do you see your character actually doing in combat?

[flappeercraft]

I'm sorry to say that, if that's your objective, you're going to have an extremely uphill battle with this, because the system itself is structured in such a way to render that not a very good option without gishing(that is, being a magic fighter who uses magic to boost your melee combat abilities) or, to a lesser extent, the Tome of Battle classes, as well as the fact "being hard to kill" is not an effective combat strategy, because the bottom line is enemies still need to be put down and "being hard to kill" doesn't really contribute to that, and UA warriors are a class that is very much not good at that in particular(or, to be completely frank, much at all, considering they're basically just the fighter with another name, and the fighter is one of the weakest classes in the entire game), because feats are very much not as good as class features. All of these problems are exacerbated by the fact that, in D&D, being good at things is expensive, both in terms of wealth and in build resources, so for every resource you're investing in "being hard to kill," those are resources not going into more useful realms of play.

That said, should you really want this as your concept, and sticking with solely within the restrictions above, there's still a few ways to go about it. First, you need to take Power Attack, because it's vital to be able to put out damage at all. Then you're going to be wanting to take Martial Study(from Tome of Battle) at least three times to pick up, at levels 2, 6, and 10, the maneuvers Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, and Mind Over Body. This is because having good saves is more important than HP, as most monsters can't do enough damage to put you down immediately, especially if you have your party supporting you with CC or BFC spells, but a save-or-die/save-or-lose will still ruin your day. You're also probably going to want to pick up enough Iron Heart maneuvers to grab Iron Heart Surge. Since you're not a martial adept, you get the maneuvers later and can only throw each out once per combat, but it's better than nothing. Other things you can do to buff your saves are options like the Steadfast Determination feat, which lets you boost your will saves and give you more protection against fortitude-targetting effects, but as a martial character, real defense is going to be coming from your wealth (https://www.dropbox.com/s/crltfrafw418d1v/ShoppingList.pdf?dl=0) by level (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items).

As a final point, although I'd normally avoid going too far outside what's asked, this is a mistake I see often enough that I feel I should point it out: Templates, for the most part, are bad. In D&D, your power comes from levels. The Shadow template specifically has LA 2, so you're coming into the game two levels lower than the rest of the party without having a lower ECL, thus meaning you won't ever catch up in level. That is a huge deal, giving you at least a -2 to hit over what you'd expect(or more, depending on what you'd be spending those levels on), notably lower HP and saves, at least one feat less, and so on. If you're really attached to the dark-aligned fluff of it, or really want stealth bonuses, and have your heart set on it, at the very least I'd like to recommend the Dark template from Tome of Magic, which gives Hide in Plain Sight, is native to the Plane of Shadows, and only has an LA of one. If you're using templates at all, make sure to be using the LA buyoff rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) to make sure you're not permanently crippled by the lost levels.

To go into much more detail, we need to know more. What other variant rules are you using? Are flaws okay? What's your party like? What level are you starting at? What are your stats? Are you multiclassing at all? Are any sources forbidden? And, most importantly, what exactly do you see your character actually doing in combat?

Agree in general but really most of the stuff you mention will work for a defensive warrior really is not necessary. Just get the Troll Blooded feat and a Spellcasting service of Mantle of the Fiery Spirit and the only thing damage wise that can kill you is acid. As for SoDs, Deathward should have you covered enough so no need to be excessively prepared on that front but I would still reccomend taking a Cloak of Resistance +5 for other stuff. If you want to really be resilient, the Diehard feat would synergize well with Troll-Blooded, letting you act for all combat even if you are in -13764637217348934671^97292729 hp or something insane like that. Or you could just get a caster service for Hide life and hide whatever part you cut off in a place nobody will ever find or care to find and have all that I mentioned previously and more for that spell only.

If you want the shadow template for the fluff or some of the minor benefits, I would reccomend getting a Collar of perpetual Umbral Metamorphosis instead for the Dark Template while you wear it and at no LA.

[RoboEmperor]

Grab the ghost template from Ghostwalk for incorporeality.

[yarrowdeathbloo]

I'm sorry to say that, if that's your objective, you're going to have an extremely uphill battle with this, because the system itself is structured in such a way to render that not a very good option without gishing(that is, being a magic fighter who uses magic to boost your melee combat abilities) or, to a lesser extent, the Tome of Battle classes, as well as the fact "being hard to kill" is not an effective combat strategy, because the bottom line is enemies still need to be put down and "being hard to kill" doesn't really contribute to that, and UA warriors are a class that is very much not good at that in particular(or, to be completely frank, much at all, considering they're basically just the fighter with another name, and the fighter is one of the weakest classes in the entire game), because feats are very much not as good as class features. All of these problems are exacerbated by the fact that, in D&D, being good at things is expensive, both in terms of wealth and in build resources, so for every resource you're investing in "being hard to kill," those are resources not going into more useful realms of play.

That said, should you really want this as your concept, and sticking with solely within the restrictions above, there's still a few ways to go about it. First, you need to take Power Attack, because it's vital to be able to put out damage at all. Then you're going to be wanting to take Martial Study(from Tome of Battle) at least three times to pick up, at levels 2, 6, and 10, the maneuvers Moment of Perfect Mind, Action Before Thought, and Mind Over Body. This is because having good saves is more important than HP, as most monsters can't do enough damage to put you down immediately, especially if you have your party supporting you with CC or BFC spells, but a save-or-die/save-or-lose will still ruin your day. You're also probably going to want to pick up enough Iron Heart maneuvers to grab Iron Heart Surge. Since you're not a martial adept, you get the maneuvers later and can only throw each out once per combat, but it's better than nothing. Other things you can do to buff your saves are options like the Steadfast Determination feat, which lets you boost your will saves and give you more protection against fortitude-targetting effects, but as a martial character, real defense is going to be coming from your wealth (https://www.dropbox.com/s/crltfrafw418d1v/ShoppingList.pdf?dl=0) by level (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items).

As a final point, although I'd normally avoid going too far outside what's asked, this is a mistake I see often enough that I feel I should point it out: Templates, for the most part, are bad. In D&D, your power comes from levels. The Shadow template specifically has LA 2, so you're coming into the game two levels lower than the rest of the party without having a lower ECL, thus meaning you won't ever catch up in level. That is a huge deal, giving you at least a -2 to hit over what you'd expect(or more, depending on what you'd be spending those levels on), notably lower HP and saves, at least one feat less, and so on. If you're really attached to the dark-aligned fluff of it, or really want stealth bonuses, and have your heart set on it, at the very least I'd like to recommend the Dark template from Tome of Magic, which gives Hide in Plain Sight, is native to the Plane of Shadows, and only has an LA of one. If you're using templates at all, make sure to be using the LA buyoff rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) to make sure you're not permanently crippled by the lost levels.

To go into much more detail, we need to know more. What other variant rules are you using? Are flaws okay? What's your party like? What level are you starting at? What are your stats? Are you multiclassing at all? Are any sources forbidden? And, most importantly, what exactly do you see your character actually doing in combat?

For variant rules we are using 3:

1) alchemy can be used by anyone with ranks in it not just spell casters

2) we are allowed to take the average hp of our classes.

3) we aren't using carrying capacity rules as long as we don't have a stupid amount of items on us.

Flaws are ok as far as I'm aware.

As for the party we're starting at level 3 we got a sorcerer who is obsessed with damage spells and a cleric who wants to act as a support the other player is deciding between rogue or spelltheif right now.

As for stats our group uses an array (we can roll if we want but we're stuck with what we get if we do) the array is 18,16,14,12,10,8.

I might multiclass in the future.

The only thing that's forbidden is pun-pun and other such cheese.

In combat I would like to be using non magic aoe effects and disables (i.e. alchemists fire, tanglefoot bags, that type of thing.)

I'll check with my dm to see if the troll blooded feat is ok so I won't need to bother with the shadow template but if not is there any other ways to be getting quick hp recovery?

[DeTess]

In combat I would like to be using non magic aoe effects and disables (i.e. alchemists fire, tanglefoot bags, that type of thing.)


This might work at level three, if you don't mind spending money that could have been put into permanent equipment. By level 6 you might as well not bother.

If you haven't yet, read through tome of battle. It contains far better support for what you want to do, including non-magical aoe's.

[ShurikVch]

and UA warriors are a class that is very much not good at that in particular(or, to be completely frank, much at all, considering they're basically just the fighter with another name, and the fighter is one of the weakest classes in the entire game)Correction: you're missing one crucial difference between the Fighter and UA Warrior - Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#warrior)'s bonus feats aren't limited by the Fighter Bonus Feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#fighterBonusFeats) list
Thus: Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) - Shape Soulmeld - Open X Chakra - Minor Divine Spellcaster - Magical Training - Hidden Talent...
(Martial Study and Martial Stance, but Fighter have it too)
Also, UA Bonus Feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#bonusFeats)! Your Warrior may get access to Turn Undead! Travel Devotion...

[Anthrowhale]

If you are willing to change your race, you can be a:
Warforged (Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, and energy drain)
Gheden (Immunity to Nonlethal Damage, Toughness, Die Hard, Endurance) at LA+1
With a Major Djinni bloodline (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#genieDjinni)
Take the:
1. Troll-Blooded feat (Regen 1/Fire or Acid). Combined with immunity to nonlethal, you are immune to most level 1 sources of damage.
1. Adamantine Body feat (Armor bonus +8)

At level 2, take:
2. Power Attack
and pay off the bloodline 3 times.

At level 3 use level buyoff if possible.

At level 4 take Improved Bull Rush
Gain Resist 5/acid from the bloodline

At level 6 enter Warforged Juggernaut.
At level 7, Immunity to critical hits from WJ.
At level 8, Immunity to Mind-affecting from WJ.
Also pay for a casting of Mantle of the Fiery Spirit for Immunity to Fire.
At level 9, Immunity to Death effects and Necromancy effects from WJ.
At level 10, Immunity to Ability Drain & Damage.
At level 12, gain Resist 10/acid
At level 20, gain Immunity to Acid

[yarrowdeathbloo]

If you are willing to change your race, you can be a:
Warforged (Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, and energy drain)
Gheden (Immunity to Nonlethal Damage, Toughness, Die Hard, Endurance) at LA+1
With a Major Djinni bloodline (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#genieDjinni)
Take the:
1. Troll-Blooded feat (Regen 1/Fire or Acid). Combined with immunity to nonlethal, you are immune to most level 1 sources of damage.
1. Adamantine Body feat (Armor bonus +8)

At level 2, take:
2. Power Attack
and pay off the bloodline 3 times.

At level 3 use level buyoff if possible.

At level 4 take Improved Bull Rush
Gain Resist 5/acid from the bloodline

At level 6 enter Warforged Juggernaut.
At level 7, Immunity to critical hits from WJ.
At level 8, Immunity to Mind-affecting from WJ.
Also pay for a casting of Mantle of the Fiery Spirit for Immunity to Fire.
At level 9, Immunity to Death effects and Necromancy effects from WJ.
At level 10, Immunity to Ability Drain & Damage.
At level 12, gain Resist 10/acid
At level 20, gain Immunity to Acid

I love it but I think this is what my dm meant when he said no cheese.

[Anthrowhale]

I love it but I think this is what my dm meant when he said no cheese.

That may be :-) It is however much weaker than pun-pun. You can modify by dropping Troll-blooded+Gheden, the bloodline, or both. Without either, you just have a standard warforged juggernaut which is difficult to accuse of cheesiness.

An alternative is to play as a necropolitan. As an undead, you have all the warforged juggernaut immunities + immunity to any effect requiring a fort save unless it affects objects - necromancy immunity. You become vulnerable to turning, but you can take the uberpowerful Lifesense feat so everything that is alive functions as a lightsource for you. Also take Faerie Mysteries Initiate (... probably before becoming a Necropolitan) so you gain an Int bonus to hit points. Consider taking Evasion as a Warrior bonus feat. Maximize your AC---I like Dexterity focused fighter builds with Improved Combat Expertise. One good approach here is to use Master Thrower 5 to get Weak Spot (Touch attacks) combined with Power Throw (i.e. power attack with thrown weapons). It's also certainly good advice to take Darkstalker and maximize Hide/Move Silently since not being seen is a great way to not be targeted. You can easily do this as a Warrior. Combined with Lifesense and good Spot skill you can make a passably good scout. Ranged attacks + hide synergizes with being something small like a whispergnome.

Edit: Another way to get out of combat healing, which works with Necropolitan, is to take the Feral template. It's LA+1 and gives Fast Healing.

[Goaty14]

It is however much weaker than pun-pun.

Are you arguing the possibility of something stronger than pun-pun? Pun-pun is a horrible balancing point for what's cheese/not cheese.

EDIT: With all of these suggestions with martial study, I'd suggest you dip Warblade (ToB) at some point for that oh-so-good Iron Heart Surge and some diamond mind. You recharge all of your readied maneuvers by smacking your opponent.

[Jowgen]

Some building blocks you may wish to consider:

- Azure Toughness counts as toughness, letting you qualify for Troll Blooded and giving you an extra point of essentia to sink into Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart Vest. You now deduce 2 from all ability damage. Spend another feat and you can upgrade the vest to also cover ability drain. Also, Headband of Ferocity (Masters of the Wild) gives you Diehard+ for 2000 gp.
- Less cheesy than flat-out nonlethal damage immunity is the Iron Jaw ability of a Pugilist fighter variant from Dragon 310. All non-lethal damage you take is reduced by you Con modifier, essentially giving you scalable damage reduction to go with your regeneration. Ask if you can take it in place of a bonus feat.
- The Pride domain (Spc) lets you re-roll natural 1st on saving throws. Combine with Steadfast Determination and otherwise ludicrous saves and you'll be relatively safe from things that get past your immunities.
-If you're going the high-saves route, you'll want Mettle. The 3.0 Templar is good for that, slightly easier to qualify than Pious Templar, if you can get it.
- If you really wanna max out the save against everything route, Divine Denial is a feat that lets you save against all Divine spells, even if they don't normally let you do so. Requires Iron Will (get from magical location) and Knowledge Religion ranks.
- If you're intent on getting a template to boost survivability, Shadow is not a great option. At the least you'll need to carry a Dark Lantern (ToM) to keep your shadow blend active at all times. The best at +2 is obviously Saint, but it is a pain to qualify for. If you really don't care about LA, then you might want to consider Firesouled, from Dragon 314. It's pricey at 3, but will get you Leadership, the Fire subtype, Stun-immunity, and the ever-so-elusive immunity to Daze, plus other nifty stuff.

[Vizzerdrix]

A favorite little build of mine is Aberant Dragonmark (shield), Mark of maddness, Mark of Xoriat, toughness, and troll blooded.

This nets you a few extra hp, DR 5, +4 shield ac 1/day, regeneration 1, and a decent 1 round debuff.

[Selene Sparks]

Agree in general but really most of the stuff you mention will work for a defensive warrior really is not necessary. Just get the Troll Blooded feat and a Spellcasting service of Mantle of the Fiery Spirit and the only thing damage wise that can kill you is acid. As for SoDs, Deathward should have you covered enough so no need to be excessively prepared on that front but I would still reccomend taking a Cloak of Resistance +5 for other stuff. If you want to really be resilient, the Diehard feat would synergize well with Troll-Blooded, letting you act for all combat even if you are in -13764637217348934671^97292729 hp or something insane like that. Or you could just get a caster service for Hide life and hide whatever part you cut off in a place nobody will ever find or care to find and have all that I mentioned previously and more for that spell only.Troll-Blooded isn't an awful idea, assuming you're allowing Dragon Magazine(Something I recommend against simply assuming), but even being totally immune to HP damage isn't a good way to be hard to kill in D&D. This is especially true because you are still totally capable of stabbing regenerating things to death anyways (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#regeneration), as well as the fact that, your proposed solutions don't really work. If dispel magic permanently shuts down your defense, it's not a very good defense, and even then, things like Searing Spell mean it's far from reliable.

While Death Ward should, indeed, be a basic part of your defenses, probably through Soulfire Armor or the like, [Death] hardly has the corner on Save-Or-Dies. Plane Shift will kill you. Endless Slumber will kill you. Decerebrate will kill you. Shivering Touch will kill you, and without a save at that. Polymorph Any Object or Flesh to Stone will kill you. Dominate will kill you and your party. Mindrape will kill you and your party. All of these are things that work perfectly fine without regard to your HP total. Even basic things like Shadow Binding or Stinking Cloud can still essentially kill you and your party. Having good saves is simply more important than having even an infinite HP total.

For variant rules we are using 3:

1) alchemy can be used by anyone with ranks in it not just spell casters

2) we are allowed to take the average hp of our classes.

3) we aren't using carrying capacity rules as long as we don't have a stupid amount of items on us.

Flaws are ok as far as I'm aware.This is good to know, but these are, in fact, houserules, rather than variant rules. Houserules are also important for us to know, so it's still good for them to be posted, but variant rules are entirely a different thing. They're the optional rulesets, like Taint, Flaws, Traits, LA Buyoff, Bloodlines, Racial Paragon Classes, and so on.

I might multiclass in the future.That's good to know. Into what, though? Again, this game works better if you know what, exactly, you want to do.

In combat I would like to be using non magic aoe effects and disables (i.e. alchemists fire, tanglefoot bags, that type of thing.)Okay, that can be done. The problem here is that, disregarding the fact that it doesn't scale very well, the only really efficient way to actually use flasks is to be a rogue, so that you get to add actual damage to the attacks, because if you don't, d6 damage isn't enough to actually so much as tickle higher level enemies who often have both fire resistance and potentially hundreds of hit points.

I'll check with my dm to see if the troll blooded feat is ok so I won't need to bother with the shadow template but if not is there any other ways to be getting quick hp recovery?The general wisdom here is not to invest heavily into it (http://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=27cg32tggtpk3vt5ija5qlu5s0&topic=8965.0). Once you're past level four or five at the latest, for example, a wand of lesser vigor costs essentially nothing and can heal 550HP for 750GP. If you're concerned about "quick" as in combat time especially, the sad answer is that you really don't, because monster damage dramatically outpaces any healing PCs get, with the exception of the Heal spell, at pretty much every level.

Correction: you're missing one crucial difference between the Fighter and UA Warrior - Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#warrior)'s bonus feats aren't limited by the Fighter Bonus Feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#fighterBonusFeats) list
Thus: Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) - Shape Soulmeld - Open X Chakra - Minor Divine Spellcaster - Magical Training - Hidden Talent...
(Martial Study and Martial Stance, but Fighter have it too)I didn't miss it, I disregarded it. Generic warriors are basically fighters in that they are build on the same framework, that getting a bunch of feats is as good as having an actual class, and the increase in feat selection doesn't change the fact that feats are worse than class features.

I think it's especially telling that the feats you're suggesting here are literally inferior versions of other classes' class features.

Also, UA Bonus Feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#bonusFeats)! Your Warrior may get access to Turn Undead! Travel Devotion...The bonus feats there are honestly incredibly unimpressive. You want turn undead? Cool, Divine Channeler(Dr305) can give you that for just as many feats without the requirement of being a glorified fighter. If Dragonlance is on the table, you can take Planar Touchstone(Catalogs of Enlightenment) and choose Dragonlance's Sun Domain, which gives turning for the investment of only a single feat. You want Evasion? Okay, but literally anyone else can grab it with two feats, so you all these things you might find desirable can actually be gotten in ways that aren't mutually exclusive with actual class features.

[ShurikVch]

I didn't miss it, I disregarded it. Generic warriors are basically fighters in that they are build on the same framework, that getting a bunch of feats is as good as having an actual class, and the increase in feat selection doesn't change the fact that feats are worse than class features.O RLY?
CW Samurai is T6
Fighter is T5
Monk is T5 too, but Fighter > Monk
Go ahead, tell those oriental fellows how their "real Class Features" are totally better than Fighter's bonus feats! :smallamused:


The bonus feats there are honestly incredibly unimpressive. You want turn undead? Cool, Divine Channeler(Dr305) can give you that for just as many feats without the requirement of being a glorified fighter.Yes, Divine Channeler can give you Turn Undead...
For 1/day !!!
If it wasn't prerequisite for Minor Divine Spellcaster, I would say: "Don't take it. Ever."; and even "as is" its usefulness is still questionable (presuming the generic Turn Undead feat is available)


If Dragonlance is on the table, you can take Planar Touchstone(Catalogs of Enlightenment) and choose Dragonlance's Sun Domain, which gives turning for the investment of only a single feat.Sorry to rain on your parade, but - no!
You absolutely can't grab Dragonlance Sun domain via the Catalogues of Enlightenment
See - that domain isn't, actually, a Cleric domain - it's Mystic domain
And RAW for the Catalogues of Enlightenment says:
Base Ability: Choose a cleric domain; you gain the granted power of that domain.



You want Evasion? Okay, but literally anyone else can grab it with two featsWhich two feats? :smallconfused:

[Remuko]

Troll-Blooded isn't an awful idea, assuming you're allowing Dragon Magazine(Something I recommend against simply assuming), but even being totally immune to HP damage isn't a good way to be hard to kill in D&D. This is especially true because you are still totally capable of stabbing regenerating things to death anyways (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#regeneration)


Regeneration

Creatures with this extraordinary ability recover from wounds quickly and can even regrow or reattach severed body parts. Damage dealt to the creature is treated as nonlethal damage, and the creature automatically cures itself of nonlethal damage at a fixed rate per round, as given in the creature’s entry.

Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, deal damage to the creature normally; that sort of damage doesn’t convert to nonlethal damage and so doesn’t go away. The creature’s description includes the details. A regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace. The attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage.

You were sort of right. I underlined the important bit. Even if youre KO'd by nonlethal the CDG has to be with something that doesnt do non-lethal. IE if they couldnt bypass your regen before making you unconscious, they cant bypass it with a CDG either.

[Selene Sparks]

O RLY?
CW Samurai is T6
Fighter is T5
Monk is T5 too, but Fighter > Monk
Go ahead, tell those oriental fellows how their "real Class Features" are totally better than Fighter's bonus feats! :smallamused:Yes, really.

First of all, monks are, in fact, superior to fighters. This is because they get UMD and Diplomacy out of the box, and both of those skills are more powerful than anything fighters have by default. Beyond that, note how many of the monk or samurai class features are essentially already skills, feats, or magic items under 10,000 GP. They aren't real class features for the same reason the UA Warriors feat-trades aren't real class features.

Yes, Divine Channeler can give you Turn Undead...
For 1/day !!!
If it wasn't prerequisite for Minor Divine Spellcaster, I would say: "Don't take it. Ever."; and even "as is" its usefulness is still questionable (presuming the generic Turn Undead feat is available) Yes, you get one turn attempt per day without having to waste points in Charisma. The decrease is ultimately irrelevant, since your turning will really be coming from nightsticks and reliquary holy symbols regardless.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but - no!
You absolutely can't grab Dragonlance Sun domain via the Catalogues of Enlightenment
See - that domain isn't, actually, a Cleric domain - it's Mystic domain
And RAW for the Catalogues of Enlightenment says:Incorrect, they are, in fact, cleric domains. You've ignored one very important piece of text in your argument here:

In addition to the domains listed in the Player's Handbook, various deities of Krynn permit clerics to choose from the additional domains presented here. These new domains follow all the rules presented for domains in the Player's Handbook. The only mention of Mystics in the text of the section is in the header. In other words, just because no gods in Dragonlance grant the domain doesn't change the fact that they are cleric domains. And they are absolutely not "Mystic Domains," because "Mystic Domains" are not, in fact, a thing any more than "Adept Domains" or "Warmage Domains" are. This is even more obvious if you read the Mystic's own entry, which says:

Domain: ...A Mystic chooses one domain available to clerics, including those from the Player's Handbook (even Sun, which is not granted by any of the living deities of Krynn, but not Magic) and the new domains presented in Chapter 3: Magic of Krynn (including several available only to Mystics).Now compare this text to the Domain Wizard variant:
A wizard who uses the arcane domain system (called a domain wizard) selects a specific arcane domain of spells, much like a cleric selects a pair of domains associated with his deity. A domain wizard cannot also be a specialist wizard; in exchange for the versatility given up by specializing in a domain instead of an entire school, the domain wizard casts her chosen spells with increased power.

Some of the arcane domains described below have the same name as a divine domain. Regardless of any apparent similarity, these domains have no connection to one another.In other words, arcane domains aren't cleric domains on the grounds that they're actually differentiated, not using what are explicitly the same rules and constantly reaffirming it. And, to head off a line of bad logic before it starts, "available to clerics," and "available only to mystics" are not mutually exclusive.

Finally, even from an intent perspective, you're incorrect, as the reason why clerics cannot take the Sun Domain in Dragonlance is that Dragonlance requires clerics to have gods, and no gods grant the Sun domain, not because of anything inherent in the Sun Domain in particular, and the Catalogs say "cleric domain" because that's a term interchangeable with simply "domain" and simply is referring one to the cleric class for reference , because cleric domains are what domains are. So, from an intent perspective, if that domain is available at all in a game outside Dragonlance(or I guess Faerun), anyone with the means to grab it, such as a cause cleric or adept, should be able to without issue.

Which two feats? :smallconfused:Shape Soulmeld(Impulse Boots) and Open Least Chakra.

You were sort of right. I underlined the important bit. Even if youre KO'd by nonlethal the CDG has to be with something that doesnt do non-lethal. IE if they couldnt bypass your regen before making you unconscious, they cant bypass it with a CDG either.I'm aware. Acid and fire really aren't hard to come by, even if they're not combat effective in their easiest to use forms, but that ceases to be a problem once they're helpless. On a related note, one thing you'll note is that the particular restriction you're referring to applies only to attacks on a regenerating creature incapacitated via nonlethal damage.

[Anthrowhale]

I regard the UA Warrior as about Tier 4. Any 6 class skills means it has UMD, Iajutsu Focus, Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and one of {Spellcraft, Diplomacy, Tumble}.

The UA bonus feats allow it to function on par with ranger, losing spells but gaining sneak attack progression instead. The remaining weak point is a the number of class skills but Nymph's Kiss/Human/Intelligence can compensate reasonably and the "choose any 6 skills" provides lots of room for a character concept. It's also on par with a Rogue, gaining full BAB and +2 hp/level but fewer skill points leaving it less diverse but better at the striker role. A full IF+SA (with Craven) attack can deal 100 damage/hit.

[Remuko]

I'm aware. Acid and fire really aren't hard to come by, even if they're not combat effective in their easiest to use forms, but that ceases to be a problem once they're helpless. On a related note, one thing you'll note is that the particular restriction you're referring to applies only to attacks on a regenerating creature incapacitated via nonlethal damage.

Ah but if that last line of yours is true than the line before is also subject to it. It provides an exception that regenerating creatures can be killed by a CDG IF they were rendered unconscious via non-lethal damage, no such exception is made for unconsciousness thru other means so regenerating creatures knocked unconscious thru means other than non-lethal cant be CDG'd

[ShurikVch]

First of all, monks are, in fact, superior to fighters. This is because they get UMD and Diplomacy out of the box, and both of those skills are more powerful than anything fighters have by default.UMD?
<checking> (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm)
Nope. Don't see it

Diplomacy I give you, but Monk there isn't so special outside of Core - two ACFs (Half-Elf Fighter and Zhentarim Soldier) and six different class variants from Dragon #310 are all have Diplomacy too


Yes, you get one turn attempt per day without having to waste points in Charisma. The decrease is ultimately irrelevant, since your turning will really be coming from nightsticks and reliquary holy symbols regardless.Except numerous DMs are considering Nightsticks "cheesy", and wouldn't allow to use 100%

Also, "Patron deity" may look like a minor thing, but not just it restricts your RP possibilities, but also - what's if there are no deities at all in the current campaign setting?


Incorrect, they are, in fact, cleric domains.

You've ignored one very important piece of text in your argument here:OK, then why, exactly, it's called "Cleric and Mystic Domains" rather than just "Cleric Domains"?

The only mention of Mystics in the text of the section is in the header.Not only - also in "Deity:" lines!

In other words, just because no gods in Dragonlance grant the domain doesn't change the fact that they are cleric domains.If no cleric in existence - including clerics of ideal, heretical Sun-worshiping sects, and deities with levels in cleric - is able to take the Sun domain, then why, exactly, it's still "Cleric domain"?

And they are absolutely not "Mystic Domains,"... because Mystics are the only ones who are able to take it? :smallamused:

And, to head off a line of bad logic before it starts, "available to clerics," and "available only to mystics" are not mutually exclusive.Prove it.
(Hint: simple Cleric/Mystic multiclass proves nothing)

not, in fact, a thing any more than "Adept Domains" or "Warmage Domains" areDruid Domains are in Unearthed Arcana
Paladin Domains are in Dragon #328

Also, "one name" rule is working against you there: outside of Dragonlance, there is already a Sun domain, thus Catalogues would grant it


Finally, even from an intent perspective, you're incorrect, as the reason why clerics cannot take the Sun Domain in Dragonlance is that Dragonlance requires clerics to have gods, and no gods grant the Sun domain, not because of anything inherent in the Sun Domain in particular, and the Catalogs say "cleric domain" because that's a term interchangeable with simply "domain" and simply is referring one to the cleric class for reference , because cleric domains are what domains are.It's funny, because you're just quoted a part about Arcane Domains - are they Cleric domains too? :smallwink:


Shape Soulmeld(Impulse Boots) and Open Least Chakra.You mean - unless they're Undead or (non-Living) Constructs?..

[Selene Sparks]

I regard the UA Warrior as about Tier 4. Any 6 class skills means it has UMD, Iajutsu Focus, Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and one of {Spellcraft, Diplomacy, Tumble}.

The UA bonus feats allow it to function on par with ranger, losing spells but gaining sneak attack progression instead. The remaining weak point is a the number of class skills but Nymph's Kiss/Human/Intelligence can compensate reasonably and the "choose any 6 skills" provides lots of room for a character concept. It's also on par with a Rogue, gaining full BAB and +2 hp/level but fewer skill points leaving it less diverse but better at the striker role. A full IF+SA (with Craven) attack can deal 100 damage/hit.I disagree on multiple levels. First off, you're dramatically overvaluing the skills, IMO. My point of fighters being inferior to certain skills was supposed to be about the fact that the class, itself, is fundamentally weak, rather than a commentary on the power of the skills. Second, Iaijutsu Focus is dramatically overrated. The opportunity cost in most of the reliable ways to get it off means it's simply not worth it in most cases. The lack of power attack with a quickrazor, full attacks with SNB, and so on means it's generally not a good thing to be basing most of your damage on. Third, precision damage really doesn't work, given how so much is immune to it. Ultimately, the most damning part of this is that, in the context of the "striker" role, it's an inferior option to shock trooper/leap attack.

Ah but if that last line of yours is true than the line before is also subject to it. It provides an exception that regenerating creatures can be killed by a CDG IF they were rendered unconscious via non-lethal damage, no such exception is made for unconsciousness thru other means so regenerating creatures knocked unconscious thru means other than non-lethal cant be CDG'dNo, it provides a specific criteria in which regenerating creatures cannot be coup de graced. The general rule of coup de grace is that it can be applied to any helpless foe that is not immune to crits. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#coupdeGrace) The regeneration entry provides a specific exception, and that exception is specifically based on the way that the creature is rendered helpless.

UMD?
<checking> (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm)
Nope. Don't see itI stand corrected. I can't imagine how that idea got stuck in my head.

Diplomacy I give you, but Monk there isn't so special outside of Core - two ACFs (Half-Elf Fighter and Zhentarim Soldier) and six different class variants from Dragon #310 are all have Diplomacy tooAnd Paladins can Inspire like a bard and cast a good bunch of wizard spells on top, but I don't think we're seriously considering calling them decent.

Except numerous DMs are considering Nightsticks "cheesy", and wouldn't allow to use 100%First of all, I've never heard of anyone considering simply using a nightstick "cheesy," as the primary complaint seems to be on stacking them, but more broadly, beyond that, you lose any grounds on that once you're seriously proposing Dragon content in general.

Also, "Patron deity" may look like a minor thing, but not just it restricts your RP possibilities, but also - what's if there are no deities at all in the current campaign setting? Nobody cares because cause clerics are explicitly in the rules.

OK, then why, exactly, it's called "Cleric and Mystic Domains" rather than just "Cleric Domains"?For the same reason I don't assume every creature in Heroes of Horror is nocturnal. The name of a chapter(which, as a side note, if you are actually trying to base your argument off of, supports the idea that "mystic domains" and "cleric domains" are interchangeable) has no bearing on its rules content.

Not only - also in "Deity:" lines!Hence my qualification, and why I didn't just say "section."

If no cleric in existence - including clerics of ideal, heretical Sun-worshiping sects, and deities with levels in cleric - is able to take the Sun domain, then why, exactly, it's still "Cleric domain"?Both because clerics most certainly can take it, provided that they are also mystics, but beyond that because the rules say they are. If the Sun domain is categorically unavailable to clerics, then a mystic cannot take it, because they are limited explicitly to domains "available to clerics."

Prove it.Beyond the fact that I have by DLCS, that's not how this works. You are attempting to argue that there is a category called "mystic domains" which exist, is explicitly distinct from "cleric domains," and that the Sun domain from Dragonlance is a specific part of the first category. I don't have to prove a negative, you have to prove a positive. So, please, if you're going to actually argue this, provide rules text supporting your case.

Druid Domains are in Unearthed ArcanaYou mean in a sidebar specifically calling it not even a variant rule but a house rule, but are pulling domains that are specifically cleric domains(and that are, relevant to your logic, under the header "Cleric Domains")? Forgive me if I don't find that terribly compelling.

Paladin Domains are in Dragon #328You mean the optional rule that explicitly creates a category distinct from and explicitly differentiated from Cleric domains in numerous ways, including not even granting spells? Again, I'm really not convinced.

Also, "one name" rule is working against you there: outside of Dragonlance, there is already a Sun domain, thus Catalogues would grant itNow this is actually a decent point, if you're trying to be super strict with the as-written rules(despite you appearing to be arguing against something I've not said). It depends again on what sources are at the table. If you're using the "premium core" nonsense, then you're out of luck(and should throw out your Rules Compendium, because it's now pretty much worthless), but if not, then domains aren't specifically one of the things of which the PHB is explicitly a primary source, so it should default to the more recent DLCS, unless another book that I'm unaware of updated the Sun Domain again.

It's funny, because you're just quoted a part about Arcane Domains - are they Cleric domains too? :smallwink:Please read my post. I addressed it already, bolding the relevant parts even.

You mean - unless they're Undead or (non-Living) Constructs?..Yes, I mean every playable race. A necropolitan may need to pick up Undead Meldshaper, but they're already casters anyways, so they can open their chakras with spells, so it all balances out.

You seem to have had some trouble over my last post, so I suggest you reread it. The italics and bolds are the more important bits, so you should start there.

[denthor]

Die hard feat allows you to continue the fighting into negative hit points

[Dragolord]

Die hard feat allows you to continue the fighting into negative hit points

And at the low cost of only two feats for an extra nine hit points, is half as powerful again as Toughness. Be careful; now we're getting into theoretical optimisation.

[tiercel]

While the thread is about feats, this excellent thread about “necessary magic items” (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) seems relevant; anything you can get as a feat/class feature is one less thing you need to buy at Ye Olde Magic Shoppe (spoiler: if you’re not playing a primary spell caster, you’ll need to buy some version of most of these).

As others have said, playing defense can’t be your only focus; not only is defense multilayered and demanding (hit points, AC, touch AC, miss chance, saving throws, SR, energy resistances/immunities, status resistances/immunities, mobility [especially flight], stealth, etc) but “tanking” is generally difficult in D&D unless you can make your opponents attack you instead of your squishier but more lethal companions — and in that regard, the best defense really is a good offense. Even mildly intellegent/savvy foes will tend to take out what they perceive to be the greatest threat first, unless battlefield controlled or otherwise constrained to not do so.

[ShurikVch]

About the Diehard - Giant-Killer PrC (Silver Marches) at 10th level able to survive up to -30 hp (presuming successful Con checks)



And Paladins can Inspire like a bard and cast a good bunch of wizard spells on top, but I don't think we're seriously considering calling them decent.Let me remind you: your argument was "Monk is better than Fighter because of Diplomacy and UMD".
So, now, when we see the Diplomacy isn't so "Monk-exclusive", and UMD isn't there at all, you're saying "So what?"
Bravo!


First of all, I've never heard of anyone considering simply using a nightstick "cheesy," as the primary complaint seems to be on stacking themIf you're never heard of something, it doesn't mean it doesn't happens
And if you will stop at a single Nightstick, it will mean 5/day - which UA feat gives you for free (presuming Cha 14)


but more broadly, beyond that, you lose any grounds on that once you're seriously proposing Dragon content in general.Even all Dragon magazines combined are nowhere as cheesy as a single Serpent Kingdoms...


Nobody cares because cause clerics are explicitly in the rules.What's you just meant there?


Both because clerics most certainly can take it, provided that they are also mystics, but beyond that because the rules say they are.I hope you're aware you just proved my point?


If the Sun domain is categorically unavailable to clerics, then a mystic cannot take it, because they are limited explicitly to domains "available to clerics."Exact quote was: "A Mystic chooses one domain available to clerics, including those from the Player's Handbook (even Sun, which is not granted by any of the living deities of Krynn, but not Magic) and the new domains presented in Chapter 3: Magic of Krynn (including several available only to Mystics)."
As we can see, it doesn't says domains from Chapter 3 are, in fact, Cleric domains - just states their availability to Mystic


I don't have to prove a negativeExcept you're already doing just that
Let me remind you your own words:
And, to head off a line of bad logic before it starts, "available to clerics," and "available only to mystics" are not mutually exclusive.See the "not" word?
Sounds like "negative" to me, and you're attempting to prove it.


You mean the optional rule that explicitly creates a category distinct from and explicitly differentiated from Cleric domains in numerous ways, including not even granting spells? Again, I'm really not convinced.But it still called "Domain"

Also, how about the Shaman Domains in the Oriental Adventures?


Please read my post. I addressed it already, bolding the relevant parts even.I'm sorry, but your post addresses nothing (unless it was supposed to be read from the bottom up)
You're quoted bit about the Wizard's domains, and then, later said "because cleric domains are what domains are."

Also, the very text of granted power already hinting it isn't, in fact, a Cleric domain:
Turn or destroy undead as a good cleric. Use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. This is a supernatural ability.All Good clerics, and part of Neutral ones, are already able to do it (thus, wouldn't get anything new); the rest of Neutrals and all Evil are channeling Negative Energy - which makes them incapable to Turning Undead


Yes, I mean every playable race.Well, Maugs are kinda playable with their 2 HD and LA +3
Also, certain combinations in Tauric Creature template could give "Con -" too

A necropolitan may need to pick up Undead Meldshaper, but they're already casters anyways, so they can open their chakras with spells, so it all balances out.Not all necropolitans are, in fact, spellcasters, but even if you will get access to Open Chakra somehow, then - tell me: which, exactly, soulmelds you're gonna bind to those chackras?
Because the Shape Soulmeld feat still required Con 13...

[Anthrowhale]

I would recommend taking the argument to a different thread as it is not sufficiently related to the OP.

[yarrowdeathbloo]

So build wise how's this.

Race- Human
Class- Warrior 3
hp 32

Str 10
Dex 16
Con 18
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 8

Feats

Azure Toughness
Troll blooded
Endurance
die hard
Shape soulmeld ?

[flappeercraft]

Take Shape Soulmeld Planar Chasuble and have the Evil alignment. That gets you Acid resistance 10 +5 per essentia invested. I would also reccomend the Mantle of the Fiery Spirit for the fire subtype or the Savage Species ritual, whichever is more easily accessible. This makes you vulnerable to dying by HP damage only by acid damage to which you have a resistance to or to a fire spell with the searing metamagic. Because of Diehard, no matter how far in the negatives you are dropped, if it's not by acid or fire damage then you can act.

[Selene Sparks]

So build wise how's this.

Race- Human
Class- Warrior 3
hp 32

Str 10
Dex 16
Con 18
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 8

Feats

Azure Toughness
Troll blooded
Endurance
die hard
Shape soulmeld ?This is problematic on multiple fronts. First, regardless of what others have been saying here, diehard is entirely useless to you, because nonlethal damage doesn't actually reduce your HP (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#nonlethalDamage), so Diehard will never apply in combination with regeneration. Second of all, how are you planning on hurting enemies with that statline? You're a full BAB class, Power Attack is where you can get the most damage, but you don't have the strength for it at the moment, nor do you seem to have anything to meaningfully improve your damage from a flat die roll, which isn't going to be very useful against level-appropriate enemies.

Let me remind you: your argument was "Monk is better than Fighter because of Diplomacy and UMD".
So, now, when we see the Diplomacy isn't so "Monk-exclusive", and UMD isn't there at all, you're saying "So what?"
Bravo!No, I'm saying that bringing ACFs, like bringing in feats or PrCs, is outside the bound of the tier system as a whole(which you'd know, if you'd read the numerous times it was posted), and that diplomacy is better than fighters. This is very much akin to someone saying that rangers aren't a weak class because you can totally make a mystic wildshape ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order.

In other words, yes, you can, in fact, if you want to, make a fighter than functions better than what you'd expect a monk to. But by that token, I can create single-classed monk with 9th level spells, and then we go right down the slope until everyone becomes indistinguishable from(or killed by) Pun-Pun. And this is why, when we're talking about a class's strengths and weaknesses in a general sense, we're referring to the class by itself, not bringing alternate class features or whatnot unless specifically referring to them, because an alternate class is not the same thing as the default class by definition.

If you're never heard of something, it doesn't mean it doesn't happensSure, but if you're bringing something up, it matters. You're the one positing it's "cheesy," and in a context featuring literally proposing bad methods of damage immunity, I'm honestly beginning to suspect that you're simply looking for an argument.

Even all Dragon magazines combined are nowhere as cheesy as a single Serpent Kingdoms...And? Your point?

What's you just meant there? Clerics explicitly don't need gods, in the PHB.

I hope you're aware you just proved my point?

Exact quote was: "A Mystic chooses one domain available to clerics, including those from the Player's Handbook (even Sun, which is not granted by any of the living deities of Krynn, but not Magic) and the new domains presented in Chapter 3: Magic of Krynn (including several available only to Mystics)."
As we can see, it doesn't says domains from Chapter 3 are, in fact, Cleric domains - just states their availability to Mystic I've specifically pointed out that his is incorrect.

Reread it; "A Mystic chooses one domain available to clerics, including those from the Player's Handbook... and the new domains presented in Chapter 3..." clearly says that "those domains from the Player's Handbook" and "the new domains presented in Chapter 3" are subsets of "domain(s) available to clerics" that Mystics may choose from. There is no other way to parse it, and you don't get to just cut a few words out of a sentence because you don't like what they say.

But it still called "Domain"And they're a variant rule specifically. And, again, keep in mind that they're specifically defining them by cleric domains. Seriously, you may as well bring up Wizards.com as a game-relevant "domain" by that same logic.

Also, how about the Shaman Domains in the Oriental Adventures?I see nothing at all limiting clerics, who are free to take essentially whatever domains they feel like, from taking Shaman domains, so Shaman domains would be a subset of cleric domains(or, you know, just domains), unless I'm missing something.

Also, the very text of granted power already hinting it isn't, in fact, a Cleric domain:All Good clerics, and part of Neutral ones, are already able to do it (thus, wouldn't get anything new); the rest of Neutrals and all Evil are channeling Negative Energy - which makes them incapable to Turning UndeadGonna need a source there. Where do the rules say, exactly, that being able to rebuke undead categorically renders one incapable of ever turning undead.

And, furthermore, that's fundamentally irrelevant. The utility of the domain to clerics is not in question, only the fact that it is available to clerics, and we know it is because we know Mystics can take it, and being available to clerics as explicitly what is required for mystics to take it.

Well, Maugs are kinda playable with their 2 HD and LA +3
Also, certain combinations in Tauric Creature template could give "Con -" tooIn case I needed any more evidence I was dealing with a Gish gallop, I guess the internet delivers. I feel it's really worth keeping in mind that "Oh, yes, theoretically maugs or tauric creatures are playable" is seriously being used to respond to the point that two feats for evasion is an open option anyone that doesn't involve wasting levels on on Generic Warrior.

Not all necropolitans are, in fact, spellcasters, but even if you will get access to Open Chakra somehow, then - tell me: which, exactly, soulmelds you're gonna bind to those chackras?
Because the Shape Soulmeld feat still required Con 13...Yes, every necropolitan in the context of optimization is a spellcaster, because if you're not, being a necropolitan is a bad deal. But even disregarding that for a moment, you obviously polymorph into another form to do your meldshaping. This interaction is old news.

Look, here's the deal: I'm genuinely unlikely to have time(or likely patience, but that's secondary) to deal with another of your Gish gallops for the next few days, so if you're going to keep arguing on this, please keep it short. I'll even make it simple for you; find any text explicitly separating the domains that mystics get specifically as a specific category distinct from those that clerics get. That's what you need to do, because I've cited text and you haven't.

[emeraldstreak]

So build wise how's this.

Race- Human
Class- Warrior 3
hp 32

Str 10
Dex 16
Con 18
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 8

Feats

Azure Toughness
Troll blooded
Endurance
die hard
Shape soulmeld ?

To understand how underwhelming this 3-rd level character is, test it against a properly built 1-st level non-caster (presentation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21676490&postcount=23) and action (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21678218&postcount=36)).


1. Troll-blooded without non-lethal immunity is two feats that will bring you back to annoy your mates with your uselessness again and again. There are many races and classes that synergize with troll-blooded, human and UA warrior aren't them. Presuming Gheden is banned, I'll reconsider for Shifter Barbarian or Warforged gish. Or at least a silverbrow human paladin.

2. Die Hard is a total waste of two feats in this lineup. If you want hitpoints, the absolute leader is kobold, followed at a distant second by half-daelkyr.

3. Shape Soulmeld is only worth considering once you know where you're going.

4. This build generates 0 threat. Monsters will simply ignore it.

5. This build is a non-caster, so it has to invest wisely against disabling (which it hasn't done at all). Close-quarters Fighting would be a good choice at level 3 if it generated threat.

[ShurikVch]

No, I'm saying that bringing ACFs, like bringing in feats or PrCs, is outside the bound of the tier system as a whole(which you'd know, if you'd read the numerous times it was posted), and that diplomacy is better than fighters. This is very much akin to someone saying that rangers aren't a weak class because you can totally make a mystic wildshape ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order.

In other words, yes, you can, in fact, if you want to, make a fighter than functions better than what you'd expect a monk to. But by that token, I can create single-classed monk with 9th level spells, and then we go right down the slope until everyone becomes indistinguishable from(or killed by) Pun-Pun. And this is why, when we're talking about a class's strengths and weaknesses in a general sense, we're referring to the class by itself, not bringing alternate class features or whatnot unless specifically referring to them, because an alternate class is not the same thing as the default class by definition.
Sure, but if you're bringing something up, it matters. You're the one positing it's "cheesy," and in a context featuring literally proposing bad methods of damage immunity, I'm honestly beginning to suspect that you're simply looking for an argument.
And? Your point?
Clerics explicitly don't need gods, in the PHB.
I've specifically pointed out that his is incorrect.

Reread it; "A Mystic chooses one domain available to clerics, including those from the Player's Handbook... and the new domains presented in Chapter 3..." clearly says that "those domains from the Player's Handbook" and "the new domains presented in Chapter 3" are subsets of "domain(s) available to clerics" that Mystics may choose from. There is no other way to parse it, and you don't get to just cut a few words out of a sentence because you don't like what they say.
And they're a variant rule specifically. And, again, keep in mind that they're specifically defining them by cleric domains. Seriously, you may as well bring up Wizards.com as a game-relevant "domain" by that same logic.
I see nothing at all limiting clerics, who are free to take essentially whatever domains they feel like, from taking Shaman domains, so Shaman domains would be a subset of cleric domains(or, you know, just domains), unless I'm missing something.
Gonna need a source there. Where do the rules say, exactly, that being able to rebuke undead categorically renders one incapable of ever turning undead.

And, furthermore, that's fundamentally irrelevant. The utility of the domain to clerics is not in question, only the fact that it is available to clerics, and we know it is because we know Mystics can take it, and being available to clerics as explicitly what is required for mystics to take it.
In case I needed any more evidence I was dealing with a Gish gallop, I guess the internet delivers. I feel it's really worth keeping in mind that "Oh, yes, theoretically maugs or tauric creatures are playable" is seriously being used to respond to the point that two feats for evasion is an open option anyone that doesn't involve wasting levels on on Generic Warrior.
Yes, every necropolitan in the context of optimization is a spellcaster, because if you're not, being a necropolitan is a bad deal. But even disregarding that for a moment, you obviously polymorph into another form to do your meldshaping. This interaction is old news.

Look, here's the deal: I'm genuinely unlikely to have time(or likely patience, but that's secondary) to deal with another of your Gish gallops for the next few days, so if you're going to keep arguing on this, please keep it short. I'll even make it simple for you; find any text explicitly separating the domains that mystics get specifically as a specific category distinct from those that clerics get. That's what you need to do, because I've cited text and you haven't.
I would recommend taking the argument to a different thread as it is not sufficiently related to the OP.It's done (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?554443-Mystics-and-Domains&p=22944737#post22944737).

EDIT:
for the next few daysI may be wrong, but mostly sure Selene Sparks wouldn't continue this argument ever

[Anthrowhale]

Maybe:

Necropolitan Human
Undead [Augmented Humanoid] //fantastic immunities.
UA Warrior 3
HP: 3*(6.5+3)=29

Str 14
Dex 18
Con -
Int 16
Wis 12
Cha 10

Feats:
Human: Power Attack //BAB for damage
1. Faerie Mysteries Initiate //Int bonus to hp
3. Improved Initiative //Go First
Warrior 1. Sneak Attack+2d6 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#bonusFeats)
Warrior 2. Uncanny Dodge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#bonusFeats) (which is really improved uncanny dodge)

Good feats to get: Close-quarters fighting, Combat Expertise, Quickdraw

Nonmagical Equipment:
Masterwork tools for Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Iajutsu Focus, Tumble, UMD
Two-handed sword
Longsword
Composite Longbow
Daggers
Mithril Chain Shirt
Dastana
Heavy Shield
Buckler
(there is much more gold to spend)

AC: up to 25 = 10(base)+ 4(dex)+4(Chain Shirt)+1(Dastana)+2(heavy shield, if used)+4(Total defense, if used)
Initiative: +8=+4(Dex)+4(Improved Init)
Damage: up to 31.75 = 7(two-handed sword, if chosen)+3(strength)+6(Power Attack)+7(Sneak attack, if applicable)+8.75(Iajutsu Focus, if applicable)

Not all of the above applies simultaneously: you'll need to intelligently choose options to be effective. In the happy path, you'll achieve surprise, attack in the surprise round, then win initiative and attack again in the first round before your foe acts. Adding in the Dark template (directly or via the collar of umbral metamorphosis) substantially helps the happy path.

Skills:
Hide: 13=7+4(stat)+2(Circumstance) //Surprise
Move Silently: 13 = 7+4(stat)+2(Circumstance) //Surprise
Spot: 10 =7+1(stat)+2(circumstance) //Don't be surprised.
Iajutsu Focus: 9 =7+2(Circumstance) //Extra damage vs. flat-footed
Tumble: 13=7+4(stat)+2(Circumstance) //avoid AOOs
UMD: 9=7+2(circumstance) //this will be handy later

[ShurikVch]

One of the hardest to put down is the Curst template (Lost Empires of Faerûn)
"Unkillable (Ex)" :smallwink:
LA +3