How do Rogues deal with this?

[jaappleton]

I love the Rogue class. I think its remarkably well designed. Skills and proficiencies out the wazoo, a good scaling attack, uses for your bonus action, etc.

But here's where I, as a player, truly hesitate to play one:

Utilizing your action, you get one attack. One.

Now, ideally, you'd have Advantage so you'd roll twice. Ideally.

And I know there's a few ways to get a Bonus Action attack.

But one swing? Wait for everyone else, all your allies, all the monsters to go, then roll to attack... And if you miss, that's it.

If you hit, you should be doing pretty good damage, no doubt about that.

Yet I can't help but feel its worth mitigating the risk by going a more 'traditional attack' route, of multiple attacks per Action (like Fighter, Paladin or Monk).

So, Rogue players, did any of you have the same concern as myself? How do you deal with it?

[Lombra]

It's part of the fun. You try to build yourself the best setups to get advantage and you'll rarely miss, the fact that the opportunity is so rewarding yet so risky makes the whole thing feel thrilling. Don't worry too much about it.

[hymer]

So, Rogue players, did any of you have the same concern as myself? How do you deal with it?
First of all, I realized that it's a psychological thing. It's not different than it is for the vast majority of character from 1 to 4, and you can get through those levels just fine.
Other than that, as you say, mitigation. Dual wielding, or archery with cunning action hiding makes for high likelihoods of landing those attacks.

[Dudewithknives]

I have played a rogue 3 times in 5e. Love the class.

There are some things I noticed.

1. They make MUCH better archers than they do melee. Archers have easy advantage, melee doesn't.

2. Dual wielding or a crossbow expert are great.
If you hit the first attack use the bonus action for cunning action, if you miss you can attack again.

3. One attack a round can get very annoying when you miss like 2 or 3 times. I suck at rolling, and played melee focused on 2 of the 3 rogues, so it happend a good bit.

4. Hard to shine with all the skills and things with a bard in the party, especially a Lore bard. My swashbuckler seemed amazing with his dashing charisma and all until the lore bard did every noncombat thing I did but had full casting backup.

[DnDegenerates]

Nah. Combat wise you're kind of supposed to go in understanding how the class is designed. High risk, high reward Nova damage.

That aside, rogue is supposed to be utilized for many other things as well. Thus the rest of their class abilities.
Our rogue, on top of typical damage dealing, almost always finds other ways to be useful in and out of combat.

There have been multiple occasions where not her damage potential, but ability to move quickly or stealthily has saved our rear in combat. Finishing objectives, chasing NPCs, triggering terrain based things like chandeliers or using items to interact with the terrain (caltrops, well placed alchemists fire, cleverly used magical consumables or wands, etc.).

If you really want to optimize pure attack approaches go ahead. But it's not the only way to win a fight. It's in the class name.

As far as options. Yeah, take a few levels in a class that gives you multiattack. Or make your advantage better by playing an elf with the triple advantage fear from xanathars. It'll help. However it's not necessary, rogue is a perfectly balanced class. Sometimes it takes a clever DM/player combo to really make it shine.

[Unoriginal]

That one attack packs A LOT of punch, for 0 ressource spent.

Beside, as hymer has pointed out, most classes have only one attack at the beginning and people handle that just fine.

[Calen]

Using the bonus action Dash, Disengage (to get into advantages positions to get the flank[optional rule] or to make sure that your attack will use sneak attack.)
Hide (to set up for a Advantage attack next turn)
Working with your allies (especially the melee ones) and knowing what conditions give you advantage on the attack are crucial for playing a rogue well. The one player in my game plays his melee rogue very well, I had another player decide that he hated rogues. It comes down to a matter of style and preference.

[JerryNYG]

If you take Thief archetype you can use your bonus action to use objects like vials of acid, alchemist fire, etc. to get an extra attack.

I am playing a Rogue in my main campaign and I have taken Thief and then multi-classed 3 levels into Hexblade Warlock to get the Thirsting Blade invocation for an extra attack.

Rogues definitely have less attacks per round than other martial characters, but the utility of object interactions, speed, stealth, and being a skill monkey makes up for it.

[Platypusbill]

Mathematically speaking, your damage output is the same if you have one devastating attack vs several weaker attacks. E.g. if a Rogue has one attack that deals 40 damage and a Fighter has four attacks that deal 10 damage each, both will average 30 damage per turn with a 75% hit rate.

Rogues are just less consistent because of a smaller sample size, as they either get that huge Sneak Attack or occasionally miss and do nothing. Meanwhile, the Fighter is likely to deal a decent amount of damage and almost never misses all four attacks, but is somewhat unlikely to connect with all four.

If you want to increase consistency, you can use two-weapon fighting (Rogues can't use shields or two-handed weapons without multiclassing anyway), but it does eat your bonus action. Alternatively, take 5 levels in a martial class for Extra Attack. Multiple attacks have diminishing returns when much of your damage comes from once-per-turn effects, however.

[Lombra]

If you take Thief archetype you can use your bonus action to use objects like vials of acid, alchemist fire, etc. to get an extra attack.

I am playing a Rogue in my main campaign and I have taken Thief and then multi-classed 3 levels into Hexblade Warlock to get the Thirsting Blade invocation for an extra attack.

Rogues definitely have less attacks per round than other martial characters, but the utility of object interactions, speed, stealth, and being a skill monkey makes up for it.

You would need 5 levels of warlock to get the invocation tho.

[Coffee_Dragon]

If you take Thief archetype you can use your bonus action to use objects like vials of acid, alchemist fire, etc. to get an extra attack.

Those use the Attack action, not Use an Object.

[Dr. Cliché]

Couldn't you say that about pretty much anything, though?

If you're a mage, you're waiting through everyone else, all the players and monsters to go, and then you cast one spell. If you miss or the enemy makes their save, then that's it. You have to wait until next turn to cast another.


In any case, it's not something that's ever really bothered me. It can be annoying if it's taking ages between turns, but the same goes for any class, really. I mean, even if my attack hits, it doesn't make waiting 10 minutes between turns any less frustrating. :smallwink:

[jaappleton]

Couldn't you say that about pretty much anything, though?

If you're a mage, you're waiting through everyone else, all the players and monsters to go, and then you cast one spell. If you miss or the enemy makes their save, then that's it. You have to wait until next turn to cast another.


In any case, it's not something that's ever really bothered me. It can be annoying if it's taking ages between turns, but the same goes for any class, really. I mean, even if my attack hits, it doesn't make waiting 10 minutes between turns any less frustrating. :smallwink:

I see your point, but if I’m a lv11 Fighter, I get three swings of my sword. Three chances to hit. Odds are I’m getting at least one, likely two.

Certainly sucks as a spellcaster to cast Disintegrate any miss, I can attest to that. >_> And many spellcasters have bonus action attacks (Spirituals Weapon, Minute Meteors) or spells that can be pre-cast so you’re still doing SOMETHING (Spirit Guardians, Wall Of Fire) that don’t take your action on subsequent turns.

Rogue... Man. I dunno. I want to play it so badly, but...

[hymer]

If you're a mage, you're waiting through everyone else, all the players and monsters to go, and then you cast one spell. If you miss or the enemy makes their save, then that's it. You have to wait until next turn to cast another.
While certainly true sometimes, you usually have some choice. If you have some sort of distaste for all-or-nothing instantaneous effects, you should be able to avoid them for the most part. But then, rogues are able to avoid this as well, if they really want to.

[Unoriginal]

Rogue... Man. I dunno. I want to play it so badly, but...

Just try, jaapleton. You won't know how it feels until you felt it.

[Grod_The_Giant]

You may only have one normal attack, but you'll almost certainly have a whole bunch of uses for your bonus action. And there's very little reason NOT to use two weapons if you're in melee.

The other nice thing about the Rogue is that their power scales pretty linearly, without the huge spikes of something like Extra Attack. That makes dipping somewhat easier. Fighter 1 for a Fighting Style s an amazing dip, for instance-- TWF style is comparable to another Sneak Attack die or two, Archery + bonus action Hide for advantage is just goofy...

If standard methods aren't working (particularly for archers), Inquisitive is highly reliable.

[Dr. Cliché]

I see your point, but if I’m a lv11 Fighter, I get three swings of my sword. Three chances to hit. Odds are I’m getting at least one, likely two.

Certainly sucks as a spellcaster to cast Disintegrate any miss, I can attest to that. >_> And many spellcasters have bonus action attacks (Spirituals Weapon, Minute Meteors) or spells that can be pre-cast so you’re still doing SOMETHING (Spirit Guardians, Wall Of Fire) that don’t take your action on subsequent turns.

Rogue... Man. I dunno. I want to play it so badly, but...

All I can say is that I've played a few rogues now and this has never been a problem for me.

[DivisibleByZero]

I see your point, but if I’m a lv11 Fighter, I get three swings of my sword. Three chances to hit. Odds are I’m getting at least one, likely two.
<snip>
Rogue... Man. I dunno. I want to play it so badly, but...

It's in your head.
Let's look at that 11th level fighter.
Consider 20 Str and a greatsword against AC 15, as an example
+9 to hit, 2d6+5 damage
75% chance to deal 12 damage, three times, totaling 36 (this won't happen all the time).
If he hits twice he deals 24.
If he only hits once, he only deals 12 (this is unlikely, and will be rare).
So we're usually looking at 2 or 3 hits. That middle (between 24 and 36) gives us 30 average.

A rogue with 20 Dex and a rapier against that same enemy
+9 to hit, 1d8+6d6+5 damage
75% chance to deal 30.5

The rogue and the fighter are on even ground. They do approximately the same overall damage across the same amount of time. The difference is that the fighter does it in smaller chunks across more attacks, while the rogue does it all or nothing. But the end result is the same.
The only difference is in your head.

[Davrix]

Sneak attack is devastating and if your lucky and have a battlemaster in the group you could technically get a second sneak attack in with commanding strike if they want to let you.

Also nothing beats playing an assassin and getting that crit in on the surprise round.

[Beelzebubba]

I see your point, but if I’m a lv11 Fighter, I get three swings of my sword. Three chances to hit. Odds are I’m getting at least one, likely two.

Certainly sucks as a spellcaster to cast Disintegrate any miss, I can attest to that. >_> And many spellcasters have bonus action attacks (Spirituals Weapon, Minute Meteors) or spells that can be pre-cast so you’re still doing SOMETHING (Spirit Guardians, Wall Of Fire) that don’t take your action on subsequent turns.

Rogue... Man. I dunno. I want to play it so badly, but...

1) Attack
2) Cunning Action
3) Rolling insanely high totals to pull off heroic skill-based stuff to get in and out of trouble

They are super boring in clean-room combats. If your DM gives you a lot of environmental stuff to play with, they're great.

You should consider getting into your own shenanigans whenever possible. Your ability to avoid damage due to Uncanny Dodge, great Dex saves, climb, hide, etc. mean you can be taking all kinds of risks that others can't. Using a Wood Elf or Mobile feat means you can kite and outrun others.

I mean, how better to see if the class is for you than to try to get them killed due to their own curiosity? If you succeed, you make a new character. If you fail, you have all kinds of fun against your better judgment. How cool is that?

There's also going Arcane Trickster, Magic Initiate, using some of the Racial Feats - or even all three - to give yourself more options. Tiefling with Infernal Constitution (tanky), Wood Elf with Wood Elf Magic (really great at hiding!), High Elf with Fey Teleportation (get out of dead 1/day)...really, you have a lot of possibilities that add up in and out of combat.

[KOLE]

Most of what I wanted to say has been said already. But if you’re going to be in a long term campaign, I like to take five levels of a martial for extra attack, makes a big difference. TWF is also really helpful, with or without the Dual Wielder feat. Basically, every round becomes a game to see how can you can score advantage to sneak attack. And when you start landing that big sneak attack damage, you’ll immediately understand. Not to mention all the shenanigans Rogues are begging to get into with their plethora of unique abilities. Expertise will take you very far.

Plus, all the Rogue archetypes are so interesting. Thief gives you a climbing speed essentially, as well as the ability to use any magic object regardless of restrictions, which makes for some fun moments. Assassin is awesome for those big crits and making you feel extra extra sneaky. Arcane Trickster is all the fun of a rogue with spellcaster shenanigans. Swashbuckler is my favorite, you’ll be dancing around the battlefield like nobody’s business. Mastermind is a cool support angle. Inquisitive is meh, but Scout is jam packed with feature.

It’s really not a matter of sittinf around waiting for your turn and hoping you land sneak attack. Rogues are a lot more if you have a creative enough mind to use them.

[JellyPooga]

If only having one attack is an issue, you can build to mitigate that and Rogues are a prime target for friendly buffs. Few Classes get better use out of spells like Haste (which can effectively double your Sneak Attack), for example and terrain manipulation like Entangle is of little consequence to a Rogue with high Dex Saves and the option of effectively ignoring difficult terrain (doubly so if he's Mobile). A Battlemasters Commanders Strike is also optimally used on a Rogue to similar effect.

On building a Rogue, Sentinel makes your Rogue a very real threat in the midst of a melee and as as been mentioned, Sneak Attack makes two-weapon fighting without the Fighting Style perfectly viable. Thief Rogues and Arcane Tricksters can manipulate terrain with Fast Hands/MHL as a bonus action; potentially a more valuable action than attacking.

Rogues certainly do not lack in the combat department and they're all sorts of useful outside of it too. In my opinion, Rogues are one of the most engaging and entertaining Classes to play, regardless of the style of game you're playing; whether it be focused on social, exploration, combat or a mix of all three.

[Sigreid]

If you take 5 levels of fighter, at max level you lose 2d6 sneak attack and get extra attack. It seems to me that that on average that would up your overall damage with that second chance to hit.

If you can do it to Barbarian, you not only get the extra attack, but you get advantage when you want it, a Rage panic button and most importantly to me the unarmored AC calculation.

If you can swing monk, very early you get the ability to use your ki to get two extra bites at the sneak attack apple, and the unarmored AC calculation.

[Morty]

To be perfectly honest, I kind of don't. I'm playing a crossbow-using level 6 scout rogue and I'm considering quitting because of how dull she becomes the moment initiative is rolled. And it's pretty clear the only way to mitigate it would be to use levels in another class.

[Tanarii]

Those use the Attack action, not Use an Object.
No they don't. They either use their own (unnamed) action, or the Use an Object action. DM dependent. But definitely not the Attack Action.

[Theodoxus]

So all your games start at 5th level? Or you only play monks? I'm just not getting the disconnect here...

[Coec]

It might have been mentioned, but let's not forget that you are almost always trying to get advantage on your attacks for that sneak attack. I would think you would have a greater chance to get your SA off making your dmg a little more consistent than the fighter.

Also consider classes like warlock with hex and thirsting blade, or a paladin with smite. You may be losing 2d6 in some scenarios but those two classes get added d6s because of there spell choices.

[Mortis_Elrod]

i think its in your head man.

I've played with rogues and they never have this problem.

To be fair they rarely miss so their is that.

[Coffee_Dragon]

No they don't. They either use their own (unnamed) action, or the Use an Object action. DM dependent. But definitely not the Attack Action.

It seems you are right, or at least that's the popular opinion (although there was debate on the subject as recently as January). I could have sworn the standard response in Fast Hands threads used to be that stuff like oil and acid was OK only as long as you weren't making attack rolls. (Is there some other context I might have been thinking of in which this is the case?)

There's also been considerable disagreement in Reddit threads, although a lot of people on there seem to have no trouble banging out random hunches. There was also one thread on here on fighters lobbing multiple acid flasks with Extra Attack, where only one poster objected and was mostly ignored.

[JakOfAllTirades]

My current group really likes it when the Rogue uses Sneak Attack, and considers combat a team effort. So the Cleric casts Guiding Bolt in almost every combat, and the Bard (my character) makes good use of Faerie Fire. We spoil the Rogue with spells that grant Advantage, and as a result she seldom misses. If you're not sure about getting enough hits as a Rogue, talk to your spellcasters!

[Spacehamster]

Truly I see no reason to not squeeze in 5 levels gloom stalker or hunter ranger for a rogue, makes it so much better plus gives access to pass without trace spell.

[Kaliayev]

If you're truly worried about routinely missing, here are some options:

1. Don't dip. A level 20 rogue gets stroke of luck. This lets you treat a miss as a hit. Congratulations, you just turned that frown upside down. This recharges after short and long rests. Given the potential trade offs and the amount of time it takes to reach 20, this is likely the least attractive option.

2. Be a halfling rogue (or kor if DM allows). Halflings get the lucky racial trait. This allows you to reroll a 1, but you must use the new die.

3. Pick up the lucky feat. This allows you to roll one additional die on your attack, ability check, saving throw, or your enemy's attack roll (before or after the roll, but before the outcome is determined), and you get to choose which one you want to use. This feat gives you three charges. It recharges with a long rest and works with advantage and disadvantage. That's maybe six uses per session? It kinda depends on how long your DM is running. If you're rolling with disadvantage and you see a 20 rolled, you can throw luck at the rolls and choose the 20. If your enemy is rolling with advantage and you see a 1 rolled, you can throw luck in and choose the 1. Be aware that this is power gaming, so your DM might start hating you.

You can get some weird interactions by choosing both 2 and 3. It really depends on how much you dislike your table and the dice gods.


If only having one attack is an issue, you can build to mitigate that and Rogues are a prime target for friendly buffs. Few Classes get better use out of spells like Haste (which can effectively double your Sneak Attack), for example and terrain manipulation like Entangle is of little consequence to a Rogue with high Dex Saves and the option of effectively ignoring difficult terrain (doubly so if he's Mobile). A Battlemasters Commanders Strike is also optimally used on a Rogue to similar effect.

Sneak attack activates on one hit per turn. While attacking multiple times during your turn increases the likelihood of getting a hit, you can only sneak attack once on your turn. If you're looking to spam sneak attacks, the most viable option is dipping for tunnel fighter. This gives you unlimited opportunity attacks if you take a defensive stance as your bonus action. Since these movements are happening on another turn, you would get a sneak attack if you hit. Tunnel fighter also allows you to use your reaction to attack an enemy within your reach if they are moving more than five feet, meaning you can use your reaction to attack a disengaging or approaching enemy within your reach. You'll have to ask your DM if this reaction also applies to creatures who are moved by other means.

[JellyPooga]

Sneak attack activates on one hit per turn.

Haste guarantees you can get an attack on someone elses turn; use the Haste additional Action to attack on your turn and use your regular action to Ready an attack. Commanders Strike allows similar. Dipping for Tunnel Fighter comes with its own problems, one of which is that Tunnel Fighter isn't in the PHB (which may or may not be an issue at your table) and another is that, well, it requires dipping; delaying access to higher level features. Getting a friend to help you out is better on several levels; teamwork, specialisation, friendship, yeah! :smalltongue:

[Deadandamnation]

I've done those houserules in my session:

1) Dual-Wield no longer requires a bonus action to strike with the off-hand during your turn (for any class)

2) Rogues get @ level 5: Quick Actions: A Rogue Can take two separate bonus actions during his turn.

Players can't multiclass in my campaign.

[hymer]

2) Rogues get @ level 5: Quick Actions: A Rogue Can take two separate bonus actions during his turn.
Holy [Expletive deleted]! How is that working out?

[Deadandamnation]

Holy [Expletive deleted]! How is that working out?

They Can use Two cunning action for examples:

Dash, moving more and than
Hide behind a tree or a rock

Or Just disengage and Dash away.

In my campaign halflings can't hide behind others so they need to move behind something enviromental.

As a thief they can for example:

Move, Stab once, Disengage, Move (with the rest of the movement remains), Use Fast Hands to use the Wand of Fog.

When i find something too op, I nerf It but till now It seems ok.

[hymer]

When i find something too op, I nerf It but till now It seems ok.
You don't play with feats? Crossbow Expert got quite a bit stronger for rogues. And they make excellent archers with this further boost to their mobility. At any rate, best of luck!

[jaappleton]

Ok.

You guys have convinced me that it’s worth giving Rogue a much harder look than before, when the concept of a single attack really scared me away.

I know there’s several kinds of Rogues to build. Unfortunately it seems the Handbooks available don’t cover recent material, especially Xanathar’s, which I find especially important for the new Archetypes and for how the new available spells interact with Arcane Trickster.

So I’m going to do a bit more research, and maybe make another topic in regards to what build would be best.

[Unoriginal]

Ok.

You guys have convinced me that it’s worth giving Rogue a much harder look than before, when the concept of a single attack really scared me away.

I know there’s several kinds of Rogues to build. Unfortunately it seems the Handbooks available don’t cover recent material, especially Xanathar’s, which I find especially important for the new Archetypes and for how the new available spells interact with Arcane Trickster.

So I’m going to do a bit more research, and maybe make another topic in regards to what build would be best.

Is this about your Tabaxi swashbuckler?

Man, we told you back then: optimizing a character isn't the end-all of liking the character.

[jaappleton]

Is this about your Tabaxi swashbuckler?

Man, we told you back then: optimizing a character isn't the end-all of liking the character.

My Tabaxi Swashbuckler lived for three sessions, good sir. He met his end by failing a Dex save at level 2, as he attempted to dodge out of the way of falling lumber (I ran in front of a trap the Paladin was setting off, attempting to lure the enemies into it. I did lure the foes into it, and they died, but so didn't I)

FWIW, I did enjoy playing him. But that was quite awhile ago, it was only three sessions, all at level 2, and he never actually got to pick an Archetype.

[Unoriginal]

My Tabaxi Swashbuckler lived for three sessions, good sir. He met his end by failing a Dex save at level 2, as he attempted to dodge out of the way of falling lumber (I ran in front of a trap the Paladin was setting off, attempting to lure the enemies into it. I did lure the foes into it, and they died, but so didn't I)

FWIW, I did enjoy playing him. But that was quite awhile ago, it was only three sessions, all at level 2, and he never actually got to pick an Archetype.

Are you planning to make another Rogue, then?

[jaappleton]

Are you planning to make another Rogue, then?

Strongly considering it, but while Rogue at lv2 is single attack like nearly everything else, I was worried about how it is compared at lv9 (where we are now) to other fighting playstyles.

[Deadandamnation]

You don't play with feats? Crossbow Expert got quite a bit stronger for rogues. And they make excellent archers with this further boost to their mobility. At any rate, best of luck!

Feats like crossbow expert are simply the flaws of the developers. In my campaign if you want to shoot with a handxbow and swing with a shortshord that's dual wield. No feats required. Still you Need a bonus action to recharge It but usually my rogues throw daggers that deal 1d6 since i've meshed Shortswords and daggers together.

Xbow Expert no longer exist :)

And since the secondary attack it's just a part of the attack action, you can't do nothing with your bonus action since you can't make any attack with It.

[Keravath]

There are several ways to make a rogue more effective in combat without sacrificing and in some cases enhancing their out of combat capabilities. Sneak attack requires adjacent allies, advantage or some archetype capability like Swashbuckler. Landing sneak attack requires a high to hit roll and as many attacks as possible while not reducing the total sneak attack damage significantly.

1) Have several methods to obtain advantage
2) Multiclass
3) Feats


1) Advantage
- familiar using the help action - Arcane trickster is particularly good for this one
- bonus action hide if there is appropriate cover - all rogues (stealth is an important skill for expertise)
- darkness + devils sight - this requires a warlock multiclass to at least level 3 or a shadow sorcerer multiclass
- greater invisibility - level 7 fey warlock or other options

2) Multiclass
- Gloom stalker ranger - 5th level extra attack, 3rd level darkvision and extra first round attack, 2nd level archery +2 to hit (or other options to taste)
- Battlemaster fighter - 5th level extra attack, 3rd level maneuver dice, 2nd level extra action and 1st level archery +2 to hit (or other option to taste). Maneuver dice can give options to land a sneak attack when you are attacked by using riposte. Might work best for a melee rogue.
- Warlock (bladelock) - 5th level Thirsting Blade invocation for extra attack, 3rd level Improved pact weapon for both bow/crossbow (though not hand crossbow apparently) and a +1 hit/damage. 3rd level gives darkness spell. 2nd level allows devils sight invocation to see in magical darkness. hex spell can help replace a missing sneak attack dice but it is concentration and can be competition for bonus actions. Warlock also offers additional spell selection that can complement Arcane trickster. Spell slots refresh on a short rest.

There are other options for extra attack but I haven't looked at them as closely. (Other options are monk, barbarian, level 6 bladesinger wizard with arcane trickster, valor bard at level 6 etc).

3) Feats
- crossbow expert - bonus action hand crossbow attack, range attack with opponent adjacent does NOT cause disadvantage. This gives another attack option.
- sharpshooter - The real benefits of this ability for a rogue are ignoring cover (1/2 and 3/4) and ignoring long range disadvantage. It is important for a rogue to land the hit in order to get the sneak attack damage. The -5 to hit +10 to damage option is a bit of a trap for a rogue. For example, if your necessary to hit roll was a 5 (e.g. level 5 +9 to hit with +2 archery, +4 stat, +3 proficiency) against an AC 14. Using sharpshooter will make this a 10 to hit. Your odds of missing have gone from 20% (4 or less) to 45% (9 or less) which is a bad trade if you are trying to land a sneak attack.
- polearm master - could work to generate a melee bonus action attack for a hexblade bladelock warlock/rogue build that uses charisma for to hit/damage (Charisma applies to pact weapon to hit/damage)
- mobile - can be a great feat for a melee rogue since it adds to base movement and allows a free disengage against the target you attack.

[Kaliayev]

Haste guarantees you can get an attack on someone elses turn; use the Haste additional Action to attack on your turn and use your regular action to Ready an attack. Commanders Strike allows similar. Dipping for Tunnel Fighter comes with its own problems, one of which is that Tunnel Fighter isn't in the PHB (which may or may not be an issue at your table) and another is that, well, it requires dipping; delaying access to higher level features. Getting a friend to help you out is better on several levels; teamwork, specialisation, friendship, yeah! :smalltongue:

Oooh, that's dirty. I like it! Of course, you're giving up your uncanny dodge in the process. I guess it all depends on the scenario you find yourself in.

[KOLE]

As an addition to Keravath’s excellent post, if yoy want specific builds for rogue multiclass, I’m personally a big fan of Barbarian. You can take two levels of barb to gain Rage resistance (Won’t get damage bonus unless you’re using strength), and you can use reckless attack for at-will advantage. Of course, it’s best if you shift to a str build this way to take advantage of reckless attack, but as long as you have a finesse weapon you’re golden. I took my Barb to level 5 for extra attack before putting the rest in Rogue; but you could stop at 2 for reckless attack, 3 for totem festure, 4 for ASI or 5 for extra attack.

[jaappleton]

I realize many 'fixes' for what is my personal apprehension of the Rogue is to MC.

However, I'd actually like to stay pure Rogue. Ideally, it'd be with a Short Sword. I know that Crossbow Expert can be used in melee or ranged, but using a short sword appeals to me. (I may have been watching too much Dice, Camera, Action and have become a fan of Diath Woodrow >_> )

Archetype is pretty open. Really would like to avoid anything with resources, so I'm always good to go. I was thinking of going for like a cop, or investigator, going the Inquisitive route, since it can enable me to get Sneak Attack whenever. Really, how many monsters have amazing Deception?

[Coec]

I would suggest not talking polearm mastery as a polearm doesnt generate sneak attack. You need a ranged weapon or finesse weapon.

[Deadandamnation]

I realize many 'fixes' for what is my personal apprehension of the Rogue is to MC.

However, I'd actually like to stay pure Rogue. Ideally, it'd be with a Short Sword. I know that Crossbow Expert can be used in melee or ranged, but using a short sword appeals to me. (I may have been watching too much Dice, Camera, Action and have become a fan of Diath Woodrow >_> )

Archetype is pretty open. Really would like to avoid anything with resources, so I'm always good to go. I was thinking of going for like a cop, or investigator, going the Inquisitive route, since it can enable me to get Sneak Attack whenever. Really, how many monsters have amazing Deception?

I agree to you since when i'm not dming i'm a player and as a player i'm a powerplayer. But even if at home I do my homework minmaxing everything if I wanna play an 'Indiana Jones' Rogue I dislike multiclass as Conan the Barbarian...It Simply doesn't fit :)

So short Fix:

Give the Rogue Extra Attack @ level 6 or 7, or give It as an Archetype feature still @ level 6.

It's not overpower, 1d8+5 extra damage isn't op but if damage concernes you give him the feature: Superior Advantage.

When he got Advantage he roll thrice instead of twice.

Or Just get the lucky feat, i don't Remember but It should work on ti hit attacks.

[solidork]

I realize many 'fixes' for what is my personal apprehension of the Rogue is to MC.

However, I'd actually like to stay pure Rogue. Ideally, it'd be with a Short Sword. I know that Crossbow Expert can be used in melee or ranged, but using a short sword appeals to me. (I may have been watching too much Dice, Camera, Action and have become a fan of Diath Woodrow >_> )

Archetype is pretty open. Really would like to avoid anything with resources, so I'm always good to go. I was thinking of going for like a cop, or investigator, going the Inquisitive route, since it can enable me to get Sneak Attack whenever. Really, how many monsters have amazing Deception?

If you avoid the Arcane Trickster/Melee Cantrip route then there really isn't any reason to not dual wield, which is nice and fixes the 'one attack' problem. So long as you have other melee characters in your group, you'll likely be getting sneak attack even if the opponent does happen to roll well on deception.

Detectives are fun characters and among my favorite archetypes. I'm personally a fan of adding some magic to my detectives and so highly covet ritual casting abilities.

[Willie the Duck]

But here's where I, as a player, truly hesitate to play one:

Utilizing your action, you get one attack. One.

Now, ideally, you'd have Advantage so you'd roll twice. Ideally.

And I know there's a few ways to get a Bonus Action attack.

But one swing? Wait for everyone else, all your allies, all the monsters to go, then roll to attack... And if you miss, that's it.

If you hit, you should be doing pretty good damage, no doubt about that.

Yet I can't help but feel its worth mitigating the risk by going a more 'traditional attack' route, of multiple attacks per Action (like Fighter, Paladin or Monk).

So, Rogue players, did any of you have the same concern as myself? How do you deal with it?

In the end, you are correct. The rogue class was designed for (with exceptions around the edges) a single powerful attack that either hits or misses, while other classes (such as the other martial-types and warlocks with EB) are built around many multiple smaller attacks. There are pluses and minuses to each (the rogue, for instance, is oftentimes better at making an opportunity attack than a fighter is, a rogue is more likely to overshoot damage needed, a fighter who needs 2 hits to take down an opponent but only scores 1 hasn't actually reduced their retribution potential, etc.). However, in the end it tends to roughly come out equal (minus how combat-focused classes are). It's very clear that the game designers were aware of the issue (since, after all, the completely reworked the spells and save sections to make people save vs. spells less frequently but the effects be lessoned compared to previous editions specifically because it sucked so much to spend a high level spell and have it do absolutely nothing).

The thing is, at least to me, your main action is the same in terms of boring-ness regardless of whether it is one big attack or 2-5 small ones. If you're choosing to attack at all, you are saying, 'I am spending my action on depleting enemy hit points, which is a necessary but uninteresting part of the combat mechanism.' It is the decision to attack, rather than any other action, along with what you do with your movement, your bonus action (especially as a rogue), and your reaction that are the interesting parts of combat. And there, even in a campaign with a DM who does not reward inventive thinking, a rogue shines brighter than most other classes. You move, you hide, you position, you carefully balance multiple potential uses for your bonus actions. The rogue ought to be a character with a lot of interesting decision-points for the player playing them.


I'm playing a crossbow-using level 6 scout rogue and I'm considering quitting because of how dull she becomes the moment initiative is rolled.


There are some things I noticed.

1. They make MUCH better archers than they do melee. Archers have easy advantage, melee doesn't.

I think this seems to have been unintended. My take is the designers wanted ranged rogue to be safe-but-boring, with melee as risky, deadly, and exciting. I think getting advantage by in-combat hiding (it is the hide function you are finding leads to constant advantage for archers, right Dudewithknives?) was supposed to be harder than it ended up being.

[strangebloke]

I realize many 'fixes' for what is my personal apprehension of the Rogue is to MC.

However, I'd actually like to stay pure Rogue. Ideally, it'd be with a Short Sword. I know that Crossbow Expert can be used in melee or ranged, but using a short sword appeals to me. (I may have been watching too much Dice, Camera, Action and have become a fan of Diath Woodrow >_> )

Archetype is pretty open. Really would like to avoid anything with resources, so I'm always good to go. I was thinking of going for like a cop, or investigator, going the Inquisitive route, since it can enable me to get Sneak Attack whenever. Really, how many monsters have amazing Deception?

Play a wood elf

Duel-wield short swords.

Pick up Elven Accuracy at level 4. You won't fall behind on DEX, since EA is a half-feat.

Rogues aren't good at creating advantage for themselves, but other classes are and there's no shame in asking the wizard to lend you his familiar, or asking the monk to knock someone prone for you, or asking the BM to use a tripping attack... If you want, you can spend your attack action shoving someone to the ground (Expertise and reliable talent make this a sure win at high levels) and then attack him with your offhand weapon with advantage.

2-6 rolls seems like enough bet-hedging to me. Most classes have 2-4 rolls throughout the game, and while Crossbow Expert or PAM can push their odds higher, and they can always take EA as well, but... you won't really be behind a normal martial.

As to your other complaint, that the turn-by-turn process is stale.... Eh. Due to cunning action you basically get two actions, one of which is hiding, disengaging, or attacking. A rogue's turn-by turn is busier than most resource-less characters., and slightly less busy than most casters' turns. (worse if they're minionmancers.) Granted, casters have more decisions, but that's the design. The *really* busy classes are the gishes, and if you have a slow gish at your table, the shortness of your turn might be annoying.

[Snowbluff]

Every rogue I play with uses Booming and/or Green Flame blade. You only get 1 attack, so might as well add up to 3d8 on the primary hit, and another 3d8+mod on a secondary effect. Cleaving with GBF is good, and since you can disengage you are force Booming Blade to to proc really easily.

Combined with say, Arcane Trickster, you can pick up a bunch of tricks in a fight. I say it’s the best rogue by far, as it not only gives you some powerful spells that grant slots for multiclassing, but also gives you more options in combat. I’m usually playing a caster of some kind so I have more engaging options in a fight.

I have a rogue fighter (he has a level of fighter, wears heavy armor all of the time and dashes to make up for the speed lost) and a rogue bladesinger (he’s an amazing trapper, as he’s specialized in thief’s tool) in my group.

[strangebloke]

TWF does not work with booming blade or green-flame blade.

You're taking the 'cast a spell' action that involves a melee attack. You are not taking the attack action. TWF requires that you take the attack action.

So technically, you can't attack with booming blade on a dagger and then attack with your off hand. Now, it's probably worth considering, since TWF eats your bonus action, but you can't do both. Makes that miss really painful.

[Deadandamnation]

TWF does not work with booming blade or green-flame blade.

You're taking the 'cast a spell' action that involves a melee attack. You are not taking the attack action. TWF requires that you take the attack action.

So technically, you can't attack with booming blade on a dagger and then attack with your off hand. Now, it's probably worth considering, since TWF eats your bonus action, but you can't do both. Makes that miss really painful.

Also you can't 'cast' while dual wielding unless you have the proper talent 'Combat Casting' maybe...i don't recall right now.

The best use imho of Booming Blade is with a Rapier.

Also Elven Accuracy is top tier in my mind (wasn't aware of his existence). Let me explain better why rogues are the best at doing what they do and the others just lag behind.

Take for example an Elf AT with Booming Blade and EA VS any smiter nova cannon paladin you can think of (usually a top dmg class)

A greatsword Paladin @ level 5 can bring to the table 2 powerful blows and two smites with a 18 Strength backup:

2d6+4 each attack + 3D8 Smite for an average total of = 24.5 Damage two times let's take a grand total of 60 since we are gonna reroll some low dices and Can crit for +5% dmg.

The tricksters just boom once for:
2D8+3 boom and Rapier +3D6 SA= 22.5 Damage in total

But than comes the AC of the enemy, let's take a 17 in a vacuum.

The pally got +7 to hit (hitting on a 10+ or 55% of the times)

The trickester got +6 to hit (hitting 50% of the times)

The pally deal than -45% of damage beacuse of that (the misses) that push them back to 33 Average Damage Per Round

The trickster have Advantage, because he is clever so rolling 3 dices his chache to miss is nearly 12%. But his chanche to get a 20 is also higher, 15% at least i bet. Than he do not suffer from the AC as a penalty but instead he deal 3/5% more damage usually. Pushing him at 23+ Average DPR.

Still our Rogue deal less dmg than the novadin but:

1) He crit more often (funnier)
2) He hit more often (reliable)
3) He do It all day and night (durable) while the paladin have a battery (smites) that need to Be recharged.
4) The rogue can still disengage (adding the side Booming Blade potential damage)
5) the Rogue scale every odd level (stable)
6) the Rogue and the Novadin both do other things outside of combat...but one of them 'Do It from behind' (stylish)

Hope you all enjoyed that ;)

I love rogues

[Willie the Duck]

Hope you all enjoyed that ;)


I'm pretty sure we would have enjoyed it a bit more if you had spent a little more time on it to make sure that it was clear and readable. The rest I think we can eventually suss out, but what do you mean, "The trickster [has] Advantage, because he is clever?" What is the trickster doing (cleverly) that is giving them advantage, why can't the paladin do the same, and what are the opportunity costs to the action(s)?

[Deadandamnation]

I'm pretty sure we would have enjoyed it a bit more if you had spent a little more time on it to make sure that it was clear and readable. The rest I think we can eventually suss out, but what do you mean, "The trickster [has] Advantage, because he is clever?" What is the trickster doing (cleverly) that is giving them advantage, why can't the paladin do the same, and what are the opportunity costs to the action(s)?

Sry the post was a Little long and my English isn't the best either.

The paladin can have Advantage but he don't need to, in a sterotypical party he is the one who advantage others. Unless your plan is to play a ninja Novadin that hide behind any rocks in a shiny plate ti chop the foes :)

While a Rogue is forced to find a way to have advantage and have more tools to accomplish that task (mainly his High Dex, his expertise Stealth and cunning action hide)...for that reason I told that he is 'clever'.

If that Rogue was me, and I cannot stab with advantage this turn, my goal is to think how to stab with advantage the next One.

A Paladin Can (he isn't forced to) just hack&slash and he will miss, because he is a fighter with an holy sword.

I'm not saying that the pally is bad or the Rogue is better, just that a one-attack per turn rogue is great at doing rogue things better than one can think reading the class the first time.

Edit: What I was trying to point out is that the Rogue don't need the Extra Attack Feature and his damage output is great if played correctly while fighters like pala, ranger, fighter...they absolutely need that extra attack to deal damage.

[Theodoxus]

Archetype is pretty open. Really would like to avoid anything with resources, so I'm always good to go. I was thinking of going for like a cop, or investigator, going the Inquisitive route, since it can enable me to get Sneak Attack whenever. Really, how many monsters have amazing Deception?

Buddy of mine just rolled up a new rogue, going vhuman for the free feat and taking Observant. This AL legal rogue, at 1st level, has a 22 passive perception. (Perception skill, expertised, 16 Wis, +5 from Observant.) The DM was running LMoP for the first time and just threw up his hands, letting this "Investigator" spot all the traps and hidden goblins. It was pretty epic.

[GlenSmash!]

I love the Rogue class. I think its remarkably well designed. Skills and proficiencies out the wazoo, a good scaling attack, uses for your bonus action, etc.

But here's where I, as a player, truly hesitate to play one:

Utilizing your action, you get one attack. One.

Now, ideally, you'd have Advantage so you'd roll twice. Ideally.

And I know there's a few ways to get a Bonus Action attack.

But one swing? Wait for everyone else, all your allies, all the monsters to go, then roll to attack... And if you miss, that's it.

If you hit, you should be doing pretty good damage, no doubt about that.

Yet I can't help but feel its worth mitigating the risk by going a more 'traditional attack' route, of multiple attacks per Action (like Fighter, Paladin or Monk).

So, Rogue players, did any of you have the same concern as myself? How do you deal with it?

I don't think the Rogue players deal with it as much as embrace it.

A Rogue is like a sniper taking his time to line up the right shot, and then taking it. It's a different mentality.

[Snowbluff]

TWF does not work with booming blade or green-flame blade.

You're taking the 'cast a spell' action that involves a melee attack. You are not taking the attack action. TWF requires that you take the attack action.

So technically, you can't attack with booming blade on a dagger and then attack with your off hand. Now, it's probably worth considering, since TWF eats your bonus action, but you can't do both. Makes that miss really painful.
Well, duuuuuuuh. Who would want to TWF if you can just use these cantrips? You have cunning action. You don't need anything to do with your bonus action.


I'm pretty sure we would have enjoyed it a bit more if you had spent a little more time on it to make sure that it was clear and readable. The rest I think we can eventually suss out, but what do you mean, "The trickster [has] Advantage, because he is clever?" What is the trickster doing (cleverly) that is giving them advantage, why can't the paladin do the same, and what are the opportunity costs to the action(s)?

Well, hiding is a bonus action for a rogue, so as long as you have something to hide in before you attack (mist if your a wood elf, people if you're a halfing). you have advantage.

For a paladin, advantage will usually being the Vengeance channel divinity ability, which has limited uses and limited targets.

[jaappleton]

I don't think the Rogue players deal with it as much as embrace it.

A Rogue is like a sniper taking his time to line up the right shot, and then taking it. It's a different mentality.

This is the part that’s really starting to grow on me.

Outside of combat, with all their skills, it’s as close to a sure thing as it can be.

Combat can be the opposite, with all or nothing. Low AC, but the ability to Uncanny Dodge and Evasion.

Rogue, combat wise, is about living on the edge. And that’s something I can get behind.

[Deadandamnation]

Low AC, but the ability to Uncanny Dodge and Evasion.

I'd say average AC, 15 to 18 AC isn't that low.
You just miss the shield proficency that rangers and bards can have...but
Uncanny Dodge it's an amazing ability that many would kill for.
Evasion it's another icy on the cake.

Trickster get Illusion School, Blur/Mirror Image/Invisibility and so on :)

[Morty]

Playing a crossbow-using scout rogue, getting advantage on attacks was very rarely a problem for me. It only became difficult when cover was scarce, which didn't happen often. Then I got my one shot in and either hit or missed.

[Chugger]

I see your point, but if I’m a lv11 Fighter, I get three swings of my sword. Three chances to hit. Odds are I’m getting at least one, likely two.

Certainly sucks as a spellcaster to cast Disintegrate any miss, I can attest to that. >_> And many spellcasters have bonus action attacks (Spirituals Weapon, Minute Meteors) or spells that can be pre-cast so you’re still doing SOMETHING (Spirit Guardians, Wall Of Fire) that don’t take your action on subsequent turns.

Rogue... Man. I dunno. I want to play it so badly, but...

My Arcane Trickster gets three shots with his hand xbow. Well, three _rolls_. Maybe four. And that's if not hasted.

He uses a familiar to get advantage on his main shot. Two rolls. Uses the xbow M feat to get a bonus action shot. Often doesn't need to hide - his owl gives him advantage.

Suppose I had a round to prep and hid before combat started. My first shot is from hiding - two rolls. My second bonus action shot has advantage because my owl helps me on that one.

Now if I'm hasted - I'm not 100% sure I get my bonus action shot because I'm Readying my main action (shoot right after I make my hasted attack). Maybe it's DM-call. Okay if DM is generous I get my owl-assisted Haste shot off with sneak attack dice - then my readied main attack goes off not at advantage but if an ally is close to target, with sneak attack dice. And if DM is nice my bonus action goes off - so possibly I'm hitting 3 times w/ 4 rolls - and two sets of sneak attack dice.

[Citan]

I love the Rogue class. I think its remarkably well designed. Skills and proficiencies out the wazoo, a good scaling attack, uses for your bonus action, etc.

But here's where I, as a player, truly hesitate to play one:

Utilizing your action, you get one attack. One.

Now, ideally, you'd have Advantage so you'd roll twice. Ideally.

And I know there's a few ways to get a Bonus Action attack.

But one swing? Wait for everyone else, all your allies, all the monsters to go, then roll to attack... And if you miss, that's it.

If you hit, you should be doing pretty good damage, no doubt about that.

Yet I can't help but feel its worth mitigating the risk by going a more 'traditional attack' route, of multiple attacks per Action (like Fighter, Paladin or Monk).

So, Rogue players, did any of you have the same concern as myself? How do you deal with it?


I see your point, but if I’m a lv11 Fighter, I get three swings of my sword. Three chances to hit. Odds are I’m getting at least one, likely two.

Certainly sucks as a spellcaster to cast Disintegrate any miss, I can attest to that. >_> And many spellcasters have bonus action attacks (Spirituals Weapon, Minute Meteors) or spells that can be pre-cast so you’re still doing SOMETHING (Spirit Guardians, Wall Of Fire) that don’t take your action on subsequent turns.

Rogue... Man. I dunno. I want to play it so badly, but...


It's in your head.
Let's look at that 11th level fighter.
Consider 20 Str and a greatsword against AC 15, as an example
+9 to hit, 2d6+5 damage
75% chance to deal 12 damage, three times, totaling 36 (this won't happen all the time).
If he hits twice he deals 24.
If he only hits once, he only deals 12 (this is unlikely, and will be rare).
So we're usually looking at 2 or 3 hits. That middle (between 24 and 36) gives us 30 average.

A rogue with 20 Dex and a rapier against that same enemy
+9 to hit, 1d8+6d6+5 damage
75% chance to deal 30.5

The rogue and the fighter are on even ground. They do approximately the same overall damage across the same amount of time. The difference is that the fighter does it in smaller chunks across more attacks, while the rogue does it all or nothing. But the end result is the same.
The only difference is in your head.
It's not in his head at all.
Not only are you mixing statistics and probabilities, and conveniently forgetting about cascading consequences of the actual result in a given turn, you're also wrong in the latter.

OP is wondering about his efficiency over a turn.
Using the example you provided...
In case of basic Rogue (no TWF), the universe is binary: either you hit, or you miss. Your probability of dealing damage for the whole round is 0.75, while the probability to miss (= deal no damage) is 0.25.
In case of Fighter, you have three equiprobable events (provided he only attacks), each with 0.75, that are all part of the same time-frame as Rogue.
Otherwise said, the chance of missing for each attack is 0.25, but you have to consider the cumulative of all rolls.
So the probability of dealing no damage at all is equal to the probability of failing all three attacks at the same time, which is 0.25*0.25*0.25 = 0.015.
With Fighter, you have less than 0.01% to deal no damage in your given example, whereas Rogue has 25%.*

"Yeah, but over a day it will even out anyways".
Not only would this require a fair enough number of rolls of similar nature for this to hold true statistically, at the very least several dozens (and not every encounter lasts more than a few rounds, not all days feature several encounters)...
The consequences are MUCH more different.

As little as may be the damage a Fighter dealt in a given turn, it may still drop the enemy's HP to a threshold that makes him killable by allies before he can take any other action. Or it may put the creature in a situation that influences his decision-making (for example making it hurt enough to flee -which incidentally would give you another chance at dealing damage ^^).

In other words, you are still tilting the balance in favor of your party because you changed some of the parameters.
No damage = no damage, you didn't influence at all the encounter lining.
Plus you're extremely frustrated now. XD

Of course, we're considering only Attack action here, we all know that in practice both would have higher chance of hitting when using all features available to them (Shoving first, getting another weapon attack with bonus action, etc) and possibly party help...

So in actual play Rogue's "all or nothing" aspect never had really been a problem imx...
But that's beside the fact you were wrong about probabilities :=)


* That's exactly why Rogue get built-in features to get him advantage on his main attack by using his bonus action (which means two rolls so drops his chance to waste his attack to a very respectable 0.06), so that you can play a Rogue without having to always rely on your friends.

[DivisibleByZero]

Well, duuuuuuuh. Who would want to TWF if you can just use these cantrips?

Anyone who is worried about missing and losing the sneak attack damage.
Anyone who wants to create more consistent damage.
Both of these things are concern for the OP, so I would advise him *not* to use these cantrips.

Level 11 Rogue using GFB/BB, 20 Dex with rapier vs AC 15
75% chance to deal 39.5 damage
Over 100 rounds of combat, he deals 2887.5 damage on average.

That same level 11 Rogue using two short swords against that same enemy
75% chance to deal 29.5
19% chance to miss with the first but hit with the second, dealing 24.5
Over 100 rounds of combat, he deals 2678 damage on average.

That's only 2pts less than the cantrip per round, one of which is because of the smaller weapon, which means that the cantrip itself adds a single point of damage per round over time.
If you're worried about consistency, and you don't want to miss and lose that sneak attack damage, SCAG cantrips are not the way to go. TWF is the way to go.

[jaappleton]

Citan,

I just hugged my monitor. I hope you got it.

[Citan]

If you're worried about consistency, and you don't want to miss and lose that sneak attack damage, SCAG cantrips are not the way to go. TWF is the way to go.
This is a good summary, at least for a pure (no multiclass) non-Arcane Trickster.
Should hold true at the very least until level 11.

At level 11+ though, I'm not sure... It obviously depends on target's AC, but we'd have to take into account the fact that several archetypes at that level should have several ways to get advantage through bonus action, either by feat or built-in feature. Arcane Trickster especially is completely autonomous thanks to Improved Mage Hand at level 13, and little reason not to use it since Booming Blade cannot enable bonus action weapon attack anyways.
So from there on, you'd have to compare "Booming Blade with advantage" against "TWF".
Both cases you have 5+4=9 to hit. Probability to reach AC 15 (minimum 6) is 0.75.
Since you have two rolls in both places, chances that you get at least one of them is equal to the opposite of missing on both rolls (which is the aforementioned 6%).
So in both cases, you have 93% chance to deal some damage. Except that in BB case, since it's all damage in a single instance, it makes for a better shot.

Otherwise said, over a given self-turn, BB>TWF whenever you have a way to get advantage against your next weapon attack (and your next weapon attack only, otherwise obviously TWF is as worthy if not actually better since you'd get 4 chances to deal damage so higher overall probability).

Citan,

I just hugged my monitor. I hope you got it.
Yeah, was nice, thanks! (although it was so strong you nearly made it fall and break XD).

[jaappleton]

This topic has been a bit strange for me. A little bit of self discovery going on

Personally, I'm a gambler. Football, couple other things. And as a gambler, I want to mitigate the risk while also succeeding as much as possible. That's the whole point, right?

At the same time... The risk is pretty thrilling, not gonna lie.

So I'm sorta at this crossroad where I like the risk and the all or nothing approach, but I also want to succeed.

That said, I'm all in on Rogue now. Sneak attack, hit or miss.

Now, that said, I still want Advantage as much and as often as possible. Its for that reason I'm thinking of going AGAINST my original concept of Inquisitive Rogue; With Inquisitive, I can always get the opportunity to SA, but its play style tends to lean away from actually getting Advantage for an attack.

I hate the Assassin. Aside from its lv3 and Capstone, its terrible.

Mastermind is worse.

So now I'm a bit torn for the archetype.

[DivisibleByZero]

That said, I'm all in on Rogue now. Sneak attack, hit or miss.

Now, that said, I still want Advantage as much and as often as possible.
<snip>
So now I'm a bit torn for the archetype.

AT, possibly with a dip into Wizard or with MI.
Cunning Action @lvl2 to hide for Advantage at times.
Familiar @lvl3 to get Advantage at times. Ritualized so you don't have to spend a precious slot on it if you dip Wiz or take MI feat.
Faerie Fire @lvl3 to get Advantage when neither of those are appropriate.
Versatile Trickster @lvl13 to get Advantage with a bonus action.
Just to name a few.

If you want Advantage, AT has more ways to get it than other Rogues.
Three more ways if you don't dip Wiz or feat MI in.
Two more ways if you feat in MI but do not dip Wiz.
Only one more way than a different Rogue who dips Wiz, but still. One more is one more.

[Submortimer]

I second Arcane Trickster, especially if your DM let's you take spells from SCAG or XGtE. GFB and BB are reliable ways to boost your damage, and the Shadow Blade spell is just fantastic for rogues.

[jaappleton]

I second Arcane Trickster, especially if your DM let's you take spells from SCAG or XGtE. GFB and BB are reliable ways to boost your damage, and the Shadow Blade spell is just fantastic for rogues.

-sees Shadow Blade mentioned-

Oh, hello DracoKni-

...Close enough :smalltongue:

Teasing the members of MFoV aside, AT certainly seems the most powerful options, given the access to spellcasting. I worry though about running out of resources in a day, but the plethora of skills the Rogue innately has should mitigate that quite a bit, leaving most of my spells to be encounter exclusive. As if to say, I shouldn't be utilizing them much during exploration.

The lv9 AT feature is VERY tempting. Though while I'd prefer to be a pure Rogue, the allure of Bladesong from AT is INCREDIBLY appealing...

[Reevh]

If you take Thief archetype you can use your bonus action to use objects like vials of acid, alchemist fire, etc. to get an extra attack.

I am playing a Rogue in my main campaign and I have taken Thief and then multi-classed 3 levels into Hexblade Warlock to get the Thirsting Blade invocation for an extra attack.

Rogues definitely have less attacks per round than other martial characters, but the utility of object interactions, speed, stealth, and being a skill monkey makes up for it.

Don’t you need 5 levels in warlock for Thirsting blade?

[GlenSmash!]

This is the part that’s really starting to grow on me.

Outside of combat, with all their skills, it’s as close to a sure thing as it can be.

Combat can be the opposite, with all or nothing. Low AC, but the ability to Uncanny Dodge and Evasion.

Rogue, combat wise, is about living on the edge. And that’s something I can get behind.

Oddly enough it's exactly why I can't play them.

I just like to hit things with a big sword.

[DivisibleByZero]

The lv9 AT feature is VERY tempting. Though while I'd prefer to be a pure Rogue, the allure of Bladesong from AT is INCREDIBLY appealing...

Bladesinger is an excellent multiclass for a rogue. Lots of potential cutoff points as well. Two gets you Bladesong. Three gets you 2nd level spells. Five gets you 3rd levels spells. Six gets you Extra Attack. Seven gets you 4th level spells. That would be my max, leaving 13 levels of Rogue.

[GorogIrongut]

Though while I'd prefer to be a pure Rogue, the allure of Bladesong from AT is INCREDIBLY appealing...

While Bladesong can be useful, in practice I find that my stats (intelligence) are insufficient to warrant it... and usually just go with mage armour. Which is why I personally find that a 2 level dip into Divination is the best choice. You get Portent which is powerful and doesn't suffer from a feat/stat tax. And again, in my personal experience, most of the strength of a 2 level wizard dip lies in the fact that it:
a. Mitigates the spell selection weakness' of the Trickster
b. Gives you a real strength by allowing you to use your spell selections to load up on Ritual Spells. This turns you into even more of a beast than a rogue normally is as a skill monkey... because it essentially means you have the answer to any problem you will likely encounter. And again this doesn't require you to have an exceptionally high Intelligence. Because they're all utility spells.

By not going intelligence heavy, you're free to keep your Constitution and Wisdom at respectable levels and don't hamstring yourself.

[Coec]

Don’t you need 5 levels in warlock for Thirsting blade?

Yes you do.

[jaappleton]

Let’s narow this down a little

Mastermind is out
Assassin is out
Swashbuckler, sorry to say, is out (Party leans too much toward Charisma already)

That leaves Thief, AT, Scout and Inquisitive, right?

I’m not keen on Scout as there’s far better uses for my Reaction than moving half my speed, but is there some other saving grace I’m not aware of?

Forget Capstones, I’ll never see them.

[solidork]

I personally multiclassed into Rogue(Scout) on my Barbarian in order to get the proficiency/expertise in Nature/Survival. I only ever use the reaction to move people around while I am grappling them, which is pretty rare.

[GlenSmash!]

Let’s narow this down a little

Mastermind is out
Assassin is out
Swashbuckler, sorry to say, is out (Party leans too much toward Charisma already)

That leaves Thief, AT, Scout and Inquisitive, right?

I’m not keen on Scout as there’s far better uses for my Reaction than moving half my speed, but is there some other saving grace I’m not aware of?

Forget Capstones, I’ll never see them.

I like Scout for the extra proficiencies alone, and moving as a reaction is a great way to help set up a sneak attack on your turn, though it obviously competes with getting another sneak attack not on your turn.

I'm not too familiar with Inquisitive. I think Thief gets neat things with Fast Hands, but AT is the real standout. Spells add a ton of utility, not to mention Booming Blade.

[Dys Dogeater]

If you want to stay back but still open up a full can when you do decide to reveal yourself two weapon fighting applies to thrown weapons as well if I recall. Better still crossbow expert would allow you to instead use two hand crossbows.

[DivisibleByZero]

If you want to stay back but still open up a full can when you do decide to reveal yourself two weapon fighting applies to thrown weapons as well if I recall. Better still crossbow expert would allow you to instead use two hand crossbows.

You only need one crossbow for that.
But unless you're dead set on melee, an hand crossbow is an outstanding weapon for a Rogue, particularly for a Trickster. Crossbow Expert allows what is essentially TWF, but (1) you still get your mod to damage, (2) from range, while (3) also allowing you to do so from melee without Disadvantage, and this while (4) not actually requiring a second weapon in hand, so you can (5) still cast your AT spells freely.
Only downside is that you can't use the SCAGtrips with it. But you're certainly going to have a short sword or rapier or dagger on hand anyway, so the SCAGtrips are still there if you want them. But if you're going to focus on melee, then it kind of becomes a waste of a feat, regardless of how good it is for you on this build.

[Citan]

This topic has been a bit strange for me. A little bit of self discovery going on

Personally, I'm a gambler. Football, couple other things. And as a gambler, I want to mitigate the risk while also succeeding as much as possible. That's the whole point, right?

At the same time... The risk is pretty thrilling, not gonna lie.

So I'm sorta at this crossroad where I like the risk and the all or nothing approach, but I also want to succeed.

That said, I'm all in on Rogue now. Sneak attack, hit or miss.

Now, that said, I still want Advantage as much and as often as possible. Its for that reason I'm thinking of going AGAINST my original concept of Inquisitive Rogue; With Inquisitive, I can always get the opportunity to SA, but its play style tends to lean away from actually getting Advantage for an attack.

I hate the Assassin. Aside from its lv3 and Capstone, its terrible.

Mastermind is worse.

So now I'm a bit torn for the archetype.


AT, possibly with a dip into Wizard or with MI.
Cunning Action @lvl2 to hide for Advantage at times.
Familiar @lvl3 to get Advantage at times. Ritualized so you don't have to spend a precious slot on it if you dip Wiz or take MI feat.
Faerie Fire @lvl3 to get Advantage when neither of those are appropriate.
Versatile Trickster @lvl13 to get Advantage with a bonus action.
Just to name a few.

If you want Advantage, AT has more ways to get it than other Rogues.
Three more ways if you don't dip Wiz or feat MI in.
Two more ways if you feat in MI but do not dip Wiz.
Only one more way than a different Rogue who dips Wiz, but still. One more is one more.
I'll second, third and fourth DBZ's suggestion (except that Wizard doesn't get Faerie Fire sadly, but nothing that a small level dip into another caster wouldn't solve).

Beyond that...
Going pure AT is the best way to have fun with Magical Ambush the earliest, and advantage from Mage Hand too.
If you want easiest and "overall best" multiclass, go with Bladesinger. Best for a Rogue hands down, bringing extra move, AC, concentration, attack, spells and slots all in one (early or not) package.

If you wanted best multiclass in the long run for Magical Ambush (although that doesn't see to be your main taste so it's just FYI), you would dump INT hard and instead get some CHA to multiclass into Divine or Draconic Sorcerer.
BUT, it seems you don't want to explore the CHA way, and this build reveals his "above others potential" only after char level 13 minimum so it's probably not for you... :)

For just early and small dips into caster, you may also consider Moon Druid 2 (Wild Shape scouting/ambushing amazeness) or Tempest Cleric 2 (maximized Magical Ambush Shatter is pretty decent), to get a larger amount of utility.

But all of these require more thoughts on the build.
If you want to enjoy your character without hassle, just go Arcane Trickster with possibly a 2-level dip in Bladesinger early, then going straight Rogue 11, then you can toss a coin to see which way to pursue. :)

[Snowbluff]

Anyone who is worried about missing and losing the sneak attack damage.
Anyone who wants to create more consistent damage.
Both of these things are concern for the OP, so I would advise him *not* to use these cantrips.

Use your bonus action to generate advantage, and you'll have the same chance to get at least one hit. Better still, use your spells to make advantage (blind enemies, be invisible, or your familiar helps), then use your bonus action to force enemies to move (withdraw) to trigger addition damage (9 ish damage). Having your bonus action free is just generally really good in the first place.

That is to say, cantrips at the way to go, and they look cooler and are more versatile. :smallcool:

[strangebloke]

Let’s narow this down a little

Mastermind is out
Assassin is out
Swashbuckler, sorry to say, is out (Party leans too much toward Charisma already)

That leaves Thief, AT, Scout and Inquisitive, right?

I’m not keen on Scout as there’s far better uses for my Reaction than moving half my speed, but is there some other saving grace I’m not aware of?

Forget Capstones, I’ll never see them.

AT is pretty much just the strongest of the ones you listed. They just get so much more than any of the other subclasses except for maybe swashbuckler. They're really powerful in combat, really great at dealing with traps, and while being INT focused is arguably less fun than being WIS or CHA focused... you're likely to really shine in your chosen role. (A 1-level dip into knowledge cleric, picking up guidance along the way, is hilarious)

Haven't played inquisitive, but I do like the idea of getting reliable talent early. I do not love insightful fighting.

Had a scout at my table. They excel as skirmishers, either dashing in and out, or fighting from range. They're relatively low DPS but very slippery. They make really good WIS-focused rogues, and the mobile feat is great for them. Run in, attack twice, disengage, disengage as a reaction. Bear in mind that the movement happens at the end of the enemy's turn. So it won't save you from him, but it might save you from his friends.

Thief is fine. Fast Hands requires some creativity to get mileage out of, from what I've seen..

[Chugger]

I like being an AT - love Mage Hand. Have had several DMs give me the "ugly face" over me opening things at 30' range and foiling their beloved traps. Invis - Hold Person w/ disad on ST if yer hidden (after lvl 9) - disguise self - illusion - cantrips - these are all a rogue's friend. At higher lvls you can HASTE yourself and get off two sneak attacks a round - not a turn - but a round - by doing one attack as a ready action based on basically the world's simplest trigger - whatever the DM allows. One sneak attack on your turn and one on your reaction = a ton of damage (some DMs might frown on this - ask).

Easy_Lee makes a great argument for why you should consider a plain old thief.

The other ones I dunno about.

[Snowbluff]

The Bladesinger AT in my team is a badass with the mage hand bonuses. AT is just so cool and good.



Had a scout at my table. They excel as skirmishers, either dashing in and out, or fighting from range. They're relatively low DPS but very slippery. They make really good WIS-focused rogues, and the mobile feat is great for them. Run in, attack twice, disengage, disengage as a reaction. Bear in mind that the movement happens at the end of the enemy's turn. So it won't save you from him, but it might save you from his friends.

Well, it's a reaction to move away, isn't it? I'm wary of it because it competes with the base class's reaction, which is really good.

[Deadandamnation]

While I agree with all of you and the Arcane Trickster is my favourite, the best roguish Archetype is imho the Thief:

Fast Hands - If It work like I let It work, you Can combine Fast Hands and Use Magic Device (and that actually mean casting a spell as a bonus action in the end)

Also, a simple basic use of Fast Hands is to steal things in combat. Mostly just work against humanoids and similar but stealing conponent pouch, stealing a wand, stealing a ring of Invisibility. Really, be creative and Fast Hands will serve you well.

Climb and running Jump and supreme sneak: Become a better scout period. Work in an antimagic trap dungeon like a guarded tomb, you already should have an arcanist in your party so grab your glory and leave them the teleportation things and such...'ops they don't work here, welcome thief'

Use Magic Device: 13th level usually is the capstone ability of most Adventures. And thief got One of the best.
While an arcane trickster is self sufficent they are locked casting 3rd level spells (utility yes).
A thief Can cast 9th level spells, he just need the right Magic Device. Or use the 'dwarven amulet of Beard destruction' to make others Beard implode, that Is prolly the strongest move against a dwarf :)

Really trust me that with a fair DM that let you find balanced devices and put here and there some antimagic things, the thief is the supreme choice.

Last but not least, if you ever reach lvl 17th
Thief Reflexes is probably One of the most broken capstones ever since It let you act twice in a turn, and that turn is usually the surprise round so you Can sometimes Just do 3 full turns before any enemy even know you are there (ops they are already stones thanks to my medusa's petryfing Stone)

[JellyPooga]

Let’s narow this down a little

Mastermind is out
Assassin is out
Swashbuckler, sorry to say, is out (Party leans too much toward Charisma already)

That leaves Thief, AT, Scout and Inquisitive, right?

I’m not keen on Scout as there’s far better uses for my Reaction than moving half my speed, but is there some other saving grace I’m not aware of?

Forget Capstones, I’ll never see them.

I've found Thief to be the most satisfying Subclass to play, but then I've only actually used Thief and AT so far. It does depend on how high a level you expect to reach and how much game time you're going to get at those higher levels. If the game is never going to go above 10th, I'd probably advise steering clear of AT, which doesn't really take off as a power house until 11th when the damage Cantrips really start coming into their own and they start getting access to 3rd+ level spells and a decent amount of slots.

At lower levels, I found the AT's lack of spell slots...irritating. Sure, when you get to use your limited slots, it's great, but I found myself bean-counting my resources and often not using them "just in case" I needed them later in the day, only to never have that need.

Thief, on the other hand, has zero daily resources and for the creatively inclined, Fast Hands is truly awesome. I've had great fun with Thief. It also allows you to mitigate or further enhance certain aspects with Second Story Work; a Str 8 Rogue can't jump a 10ft pit without a roll or assistance, but a Str 8 Thief can, for example. Not a great concern at higher levels when such obstacles are of little concern, but at low level, it can be a true blessing. Then there's UMD. Higher level, sure, and GM/campaign/party dependent, but it allows the Thief access to some very powerful magical items; namely in the Wands and Staves department. Versatility on a stick (literally) and who doesn't like things in "stick" form?

[Deadandamnation]

Also the main benefit someone point out of the AT seems to be percieved as: cantrip + familiar help action

A thing that anyone can get with just the Magic Initiate Feat (sorcerer) getting 2 Cantrips and the Find Familiar Spell.

[Citan]

At lower levels, I found the AT's lack of spell slots...irritating. Sure, when you get to use your limited slots, it's great, but I found myself bean-counting my resources and often not using them "just in case" I needed them later in the day, only to never have that need.

Thief, on the other hand, has zero daily resources and for the creatively inclined, Fast Hands is truly awesome.
I agree with you on this (also true for EK ^^), and I don't think we are loners here considering how often people are speaking about dips into Wizard.
Honestly, I would mostly never play an AT/EK myself, that didn't pick a very early dip in a caster (even just one level), precisely because of that. I find that even just having 2 more uses of Shield or Absorb Elements per day and 6 more spells available is more than worth the delay of Uncanny Dodge.


Also the main benefit someone point out of the AT seems to be percieved as: cantrip + familiar help action

A thing that anyone can get with just the Magic Initiate Feat (sorcerer) getting 2 Cantrips and the Find Familiar Spell.
That is absolutely not the main benefit of AT.
The main benefits are basically all the archetype features, they are just all great, except the latest.

1. Invisible Mage Hand not only allows you to disarm traps at a distance, but also do plenty of sneaky things (stealing things, poking someone, breaking/using objects) with little chance of being identified as the culprit in case something goes wrong (since nothing in description indicates that you have to "mimick" the movements of MH with one of your own hands, only magic detection or success against extremely high Perception/Insight DC may allow someone to understand who's responsible).

2. Magical Ambush makes you, in terms of chance of success, the best mass-controller, stat.
You're better than a Sorcerer (Heightened only affects one creature, make it two if you go Shadows thanks to the hound providing another source of disadvantage), better than a Diviner (Portent only affects 2-3 rolls a day and you need some luck for those alternative rolls to be useful), mostly better than an Eldricht Knight (even if technically he can affects up to 3-4 creatures at a time he needs to wait the next round to cast his spell), mostly better than an Ancients Paladin 20 (only once per long rest, limited range, little variety in debuff).

Only one besting you would be a specific Sharpshooter EK 11+ / Sorcerer 7+ multiclass with Quicken metamagic.

The main reason why AT is not considered the best caster is simply because he has little number of slots, little spell known and caps at 4th. Dual-class with a Sorcerer or Evoker Wizard makes it extremely deadly. ;)

3. "Advantage with Magic Hand" is probably useless in some situations (melee Rogue, Wolf Barb, Monk or Shield Master pal close-by), great in others (face-tanking a lone enemy)... It's basically a way for the Rogue to always enable Sneak Attack whatever the situation he's in.

4. "Spell thievery" is the only one really lackluster to my eyes, sadly too situational and too limited to my taste, but others may have been more lucky. :)

[Deadandamnation]

That is absolutely not the main benefit of AT.
The main benefits are basically all the archetype features, they are just all great, except the latest.

The features are great, and I totally agree with you and personally really like Magical Ambush or the trickster playstyle.

What I was trying to underline is that many ppl out there seems to see him as the only rogue able to use Booming Blade and Get Advantage on the first attack through Familiar Help.

Any Rogue x/ 1 Dip Mage or any Rogue with Magic Initiate is able to do that while instead only a thief can abuse Fast Hands.

So in that regard AT just save you a feat or a dip.

Regarding Control Spells isn't there a metamagic that let you cast twice the same spell? Don't Remember, ever played a sorc :) but twincast should Be the same of having advantage on one.

Edit: Actually a twinned spell work different, i've just read It now. So magical Ambush is better in any case.

[JellyPooga]

Thinking of Magical Ambush vs. Heightened Spell, that's a Multiclass I've not previously considered seriously; AT 9/Sorcerer 11. Would probably want Sorcerer 3 first, to grab Metamagic and 2nd level spells (plus Con Save prof), then AT to (character level) 12 for Magical Ambush and other Rogue goodies, then finish off as Sorc. Pretty solid, if nothing special.

[Willie the Duck]

The features are great, and I totally agree with you and personally really like Magical Ambush or the trickster playstyle.

What I was trying to underline is that many ppl out there seems to see him as the only rogue able to use Booming Blade and Get Advantage on the first attack through Familiar Help.

Any Rogue x/ 1 Dip Mage or any Rogue with Magic Initiate is able to do that while instead only a thief can abuse Fast Hands.

So in that regard AT just save you a feat or a dip.

I would say that it is fairly common for a 1-2 level dip into a class can be emulated by the right feat selection (particularly if you are only looking for 1-2 things). A fighter with M.I. to pick up bless, light and sacred flame has a lot of role similarity to a cleric dip. A warlock can be a chain pact warlock with ritual caster feat or a tome pact warlock with a way to pick up find familiar and both tread a lot of the same ground. AT/Magic Initiate is much the same. If you weren't expecting to get to high levels with it anyways, yes a feat or a dip is just choosing which precious resource you want to expend.

[Citan]

Thinking of Magical Ambush vs. Heightened Spell, that's a Multiclass I've not previously considered seriously; AT 9/Sorcerer 11. Would probably want Sorcerer 3 first, to grab Metamagic and 2nd level spells (plus Con Save prof), then AT to (character level) 12 for Magical Ambush and other Rogue goodies, then finish off as Sorc. Pretty solid, if nothing special.
Strange you seem to discover it sinc I've been advocating it fairly often. :smallbiggrin:

Your way to qualify it is really not how I would put it. I'd rather put it as sheer awesomeness. :)
With Reliable Talent, Expertise and high DEX, going Divine Soul Sorcerer (Silence, Greater Invisibility, Polymorph) there are very few situations in which you couldn't manage Hiding from a bunch of monsters.

Then, you could (up)cast Blindness, Slow, Stinking Cloud, Fireball, Hold Person, Banishment etc... (Obviously going for high CHA, learning only utility/buffs as Arcane Trickster).
Thanks to the upcastable system of 5e, although you will never access game-changing spells, you still get quite a few spells that keep relevant every level, except on the highest CR creatures with Legendary Resistances and immunities by the dozen. :)

But in fact the only reason why I spoke of Sorcerer is because of spell list and metamagics other than Heightened: Extend helps in buff/spy activities, Empower with Draconic Sorcerer would make you a great mob-cleaner, Twin would help you be a bit more conservative of slots or make non-upcastable single target become multitargets (*cough* Polymorph *cough*), Subtle would make you the king of assassination or social manipulations (Subtle Suggestion / Hold Ambush ;))

The truely bad thing is that you start enjoying this fairly late sadly... Power always has a price. :smallwink:

Without any firm interest in metamagics, I'd argue that (for CHA classes) Swords or Whispers Bard would be much, much more synergizing: Extra Attack or more nova spike, many spells that don't rely on casting stat so more freedom to build, and frigging Skill Empowerement which makes you über in ~10+ skills...