Help build Oberyn Martell

[Spiritchaser]

Another thread about finesse polearms got me thinking about a character concept I’ve wanted to make for a while.

An extremely agile, mobile, leather armor wearing Dex based Glaive/spear weilding warrior.

I say glaive/spear as his weapon looks to be something in between the two, though obviously there is quite a variety of polearm in history, and something would probably match.

So he’s a lord with great martial skill, let’s call it about level 10 (or so) and assume that the character has to be playable all the way up, even if it doesn’t cover all the bases until 10.

I’ll be limited to published material only, no UA. Point buy stats, but no PHB +1 rule, any combo works on that count.

Racially something human-ish enough...

Bonus points only for poisoners kit, but it’s usually not worth much in most fights, and it’s mostly the fighting style I loved.

What’s the best I can do?

[Zejety]

I haven't read the class in too long, but my first instinct is to go monk, probably Kensei.
Spears aren't finesse weapons, so you'll want some other ways to key them to your Dexterity, monk weapons being an obvious one. Technically, just 1 level of monk would be enough to achieve this, but I think the class in general can be a solid match, unless stuff like slow fall isn't mundane enough. Otherwise, you can probably mix and match with fighter?

[fbelanger]

He is one of the best warrior of Westeros. Why level 10.
I would go for level 17-20.
Poison usage is a common in his kingdom. No need for rogue level.
DnD is not fit for character that made a mix use of str and dex.

[JackPhoenix]

He is one of the best warrior of Westeros. Why level 10.
I would go for level 17-20.
Poison usage is a common in his kingdom. No need for rogue level.
DnD is not fit for character that made a mix use of str and dex.

Because best warriors in Westeros aren't demigods. They are good, but still just humans.

[Spiritchaser]

He is one of the best warrior of Westeros. Why level 10.
I would go for level 17-20.
Poison usage is a common in his kingdom. No need for rogue level.
DnD is not fit for character that made a mix use of str and dex.

I’m sure if there was something that worked by, say... 12 or something I could live with it, but I don’t see Oberyn as a level 20

Also... I don’t expect to get to play at 20, and if I thought I might, I’d likely play a caster

That said, the idea of a background that grants poisoners tools is interesting... there might even be a mundane way to get that as is

Edit: and yes I agree, the central problem here is navigating the Str/Dex issue

[CantigThimble]

So, I'd say that his spear is probably not a full-blown polearm, just a spear. It hardly has more reach than Celgane's sword and you wouldn't really be able to attack anyone outside of close melee with it.

If you're willing to have his light armor just be treated as clothing then I'd go with:

Variant Human
Str: 10
Dex: 15 +1
Con: 10
Int: 10
Wis: 13 +1
Cha: 14

Mobile Feat

Monk 3: Way of Open Hand
Monk 4: +2 Dex
Monk 5
Bard 3: College of Swords, Dueling Style
Bard 4: +2 Dex
The build is pretty much done by level 9 and the last level is up to you.

The spear is a monk weapon, so he can use dexterity to attack with it. Unarmed strkes can be flavored as the various haft and butt attacks he makes. Open hand lets you knock down and push away with your attacks. College of swords gives you some nice combat flourishes and fits very well with his style. As far as spells go, to try to stick to the original character you could focus on the less obvious spells like, say, bane, suggestion, enhance ability etc.

[Spiritchaser]

He definitely has the mountain beat on reach, so I really do see this as a reach weapon...

[the_brazenburn]

I made a thread about statting ASoIaF characters. Oberyn was one of the ones I made.

I'll link it here.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?550335-A-Song-of-Dice-and-Fire-Statistics-for-Game-of-Thrones-Characters&highlight=song+of+dice+fire

[CantigThimble]

He definitely has the mountain beat on reach, so I really do see this as a reach weapon...

Well, I disagree but if you think so then feel free to change open hand to kensei and the build works pretty much the same.

[goremonger]

UA had a spear master feat a while back that is perfect for this sort of build.

It granted one reach attack per turn to spear uses, and bumped the damage die up by one, i.e. 1d8 to 1d10

[hamishspence]

Because best warriors in Westeros aren't demigods. They are good, but still just humans.

Doesn't 5e narrow the power scale, so that even 20th level characters can be taken out by regular infantry, with "bounded accuracy"?

"Level 5 is human, level 6+ is superhuman" is one person's interpretation of 3.5 - but it doesn't have to apply to 5e.

[Unoriginal]

Doesn't 5e narrow the power scale, so that even 20th level characters can be taken out by regular infantry, with "bounded accuracy"?

"Level 5 is human, level 6+ is superhuman" is one person's interpretation of 3.5 - but it doesn't have to apply to 5e.

It narrows the power scale, but a lvl 20 character can still take on 50 regular goons alone and win.

But in any case: a normal Guard is CR 1/8, which means a lvl 1 PC is about twice as strong. Your typical CR 3 Knight is around the power of one lvl 7 Fighter. Oberyn's power level can probably be set around lvl 12-15.

[The Jack]

It narrows the power scale, but a lvl 20 character can still take on 50 regular goons alone and win.

But in any case: a normal Guard is CR 1/8, which means a lvl 1 PC is about twice as strong. Your typical CR 3 Knight is around the power of one lvl 7 Fighter. Oberyn's power level can probably be set around lvl 12-15.

A normal guard actually does pretty well against a level 1 pc, they struggle when the pc is level 2 however.

Looking at the statblock closely. The CR3 Knight would usually be beaten in a one on one duel by a level five fighter (who probably has splint by that level) who's only somewhat optimised. The fighter likely more health, a better-to-hit, equal multi attack and better abilities than the knight. (also the Monster manual's pretty lax with skills and the knight should have at least athletics, history and persuasion, but the player'd still be better with those skill) The Veteran is very similar.

For more elite characters (Oberyn's from a family that commands the family that'd command cr3 knights, he's way above them). Have a look at the Hobgoblin warlord or the Gladiator. The champion/The cr12 warlord are a little crazy for GoT characters.

Personally, I'd just say Oberyn's a fighter, a battlemaster fighter who took the flashy moves. His weapon's mechanically a halberd that does piercing.
Str: 16, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 14.
Acrobatics, Performance, poisoner's kit.
yes, it's not optimized, but from an RP perspective who would be?

[Vogie]

I'd say at least 7 levels of Hunter Ranger. He wears armor, and has a fighting style that helps him hunt people. That'd give him Colossus Slayer and Multi-Attack Defense, which would show how he's able to survive the beating of the Mountain for so long.


Probably I'd make him a Hunter Ranger 7 / Swashbuckler Rogue 5. That'll make him exceptionally slippery, while also doing great damage, sneaking in significant damage while dueling.

[MaxWilson]

Because best warriors in Westeros aren't demigods. They are good, but still just humans.

Apropos of nothing:

Everyone knows Gandalf was a mid-level Barbarian with Magic Initiate, who relied primarily on Produce Flame and Commune With Nature.


Doesn't 5e narrow the power scale, so that even 20th level characters can be taken out by regular infantry, with "bounded accuracy"?

"Level 5 is human, level 6+ is superhuman" is one person's interpretation of 3.5 - but it doesn't have to apply to 5e.

Mostly, yes, 20th level characters can potentially be taken out by regular infantry. And they can also potentially take out lots of regular infantry with ease. It all depends on tactics--but a 20th level single-classed PC is generally not suited for taking out 60 CR 1/8 Guards in a straight-up combat without prior preparation, despite that being a theoretically-Medium fight.

But a 20th level PC should generally be attached to a savvy player who has played the PC all the way up to level 20 and is well-aware of the importance of prior preparation, and ways to avoid straight-up combat when it's not advantageous. So in practice there shouldn't be a problem.

So from one perspective, in terms of capabilities, 5E PCs are more human-ish than Superman-superhuman. But 5E PCs still have superhuman durability. Not quite comic-book Hulk levels of durability, but certainly 5E PCs don't view 40-foot drops with quite the same trepidation that sane human beings in real life do. Call it Spiderman levels of durability.

[Spiritchaser]

Personally, I'd just say Oberyn's a fighter, a battlemaster fighter who took the flashy moves. His weapon's mechanically a halberd that does piercing.
Str: 16, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 14.
Acrobatics, Performance, poisoner's kit.
yes, it's not optimized, but from an RP perspective who would be?

I think this is probably the best I can see conceptually right now, though I might dump one ASI for the mobile feat, which really does hurt with such spread out stats.

This might be one build to save in case we ever get a non-standard array, and no-one else is optimizing with it.

EDIT: alternatively, if we ever start with a magic item, gauntlets of ogre power would make this work well enough.

[Sicarius Victis]

I think this is probably the best I can see conceptually right now, though I might dump one ASI for the mobile feat, which really does hurt with such spread out stats.

This might be one build to save in case we ever get a non-standard array, and no-one else is optimizing with it.

EDIT: alternatively, if we ever start with a magic item, gauntlets of ogre power would make this work well enough.

Maybe Battlemaster Fighter with just a dip of Monk for Martial Arts/Unarmoured Defense, as well as (maybe) Ki+Fast Movement+Subclass stuff?

That way you have BM Fighter, as well as a DEX-based spear, decent unarmoured AC, as well as a few other possible things, without having to waste stat points optimizing for STR as well.

[Spiritchaser]

Unfortunately spear doesn’t have reach in 5e

There’s definitely a continuum of weapons between historical spears and historical polearms, but the viper’s weapon is long, and reach is part of his advantage.

Unfortunately there is no equivalent spectrum of weapons in 5e, and no way to use a glaive/polearm/“long spear” with Dex

One of the UA Kensai articles DID permit this (though it probably wouldn’t have been ideal with the leather armor)

[Iados]

Why are we trying to determine stats for a corpse?

...

Too soon?

[Spiritchaser]

Why are we trying to determine stats for a corpse?

...

Too soon?

I liked the use of reach, mobility and dexterity to overcome strength, and armor.

We can presume, significant trained skill on both sides, but I think someone who fought like the viper would be much more fun to play.

It seems like something 5e *SHOULD* be able to do

For a given value of should

[Unoriginal]

Thing is, you don't need to put much in your attack stat, when your main damage source is poison.

You could put 10 in STR, use a spear with your proficiency bonus when you need extra reach, and watch people die from snake venom as you focus on the Dodge action.

OR: you could ask your DM if you can refluff a whip as a long spear.

[Unoriginal]

Thing is, you don't need to put much in your attack stat, when your main damage source is poison.

You could put 10 in STR, use a spear with your proficiency bonus when you need extra reach, and watch people die from snake venom as you focus on the Dodge action.

OR: you could ask your DM if you can refluff a whip as a long spear/modify a whip to have piercing damage and use it as a spear.

[Unoriginal]

Thing is, you don't need to put much in your attack stat, when your main damage source is poison.

You could put 10 in STR, use a spear with your proficiency bonus when you need extra reach, and watch people die from snake venom as you focus on the Dodge action.

OR: you could ask your DM if you can refluff a whip as a long spear/modify a whip to have piercing damage and use it as a spear.

OR: you can use a Monk/Fighter and focus on DEX, since spear is a Monk weapon.

[Spiritchaser]

Thing is, you don't need to put much in your attack stat, when your main damage source is poison.

You could put 10 in STR, use a spear with your proficiency bonus when you need extra reach, and watch people die from snake venom as you focus on the Dodge action.

OR: you could ask your DM if you can refluff a whip as a long spear/modify a whip to have piercing damage and use it as a spear.

OR: you can use a Monk/Fighter and focus on DEX, since spear is a Monk weapon.

In 5e, unfortunately, spears do not have reach

Refluffing a whip may be quite a stretch.

A refluffed “two handed whip” kensai using martial arts dice for damage, and somehow proficient in poison would be a very good fit, but I’d like to keep this by the book.

Leather armor is a nice to have, not a must have.

But by the book, I’m still seeing battlemaster as best

[Vogie]

Something like a:

Dornish Spear, 1d8 piercing, with the Two-Handed, Finesse, & Reach properties

Doesn't have the thrown property, nor versatile, nor does it deal as much all other two-handers

[Spiritchaser]

Something like a:

Dornish Spear, 1d8 piercing, with the Two-Handed, Finesse, & Reach properties

Doesn't have the thrown property, nor versatile, nor does it deal as much all other two-handers

Were this to exist, the problem would be solved. The build could be a battlemaster, a monk, a rogue, heck even a bard could make this work.

[goremonger]

Unfortunately spear doesn’t have reach in 5e

There’s definitely a continuum of weapons between historical spears and historical polearms, but the viper’s weapon is long, and reach is part of his advantage.

Unfortunately there is no equivalent spectrum of weapons in 5e, and no way to use a glaive/polearm/“long spear” with Dex

One of the UA Kensai articles DID permit this (though it probably wouldn’t have been ideal with the leather armor)


Um, I hate to repeat myself. But:

UA had a spear master feat a while back that is perfect for this sort of build.

It granted one reach attack per turn to spear users, and bumped the damage die up by one, i.e. 1d8 to 1d10

[Dudewithknives]

Um, I hate to repeat myself. But:

UA had a spear master feat a while back that is perfect for this sort of build.

It granted one reach attack per turn to spear users, and bumped the damage die up by one, i.e. 1d8 to 1d10

It also gave a +1 to hit, which was very nice considering all other geats give 1 to a stat instead.

It is as close to weapon focus as we will ever get, I guess.

[Vogie]

Um, I hate to repeat myself. But:

UA had a spear master feat a while back that is perfect for this sort of build.

It granted one reach attack per turn to spear users, and bumped the damage die up by one, i.e. 1d8 to 1d10

It's almost there. It'd still be a Strength based weapon instead of a Dex based one, and only has Reach sometimes. Which is strange, to me, as one of the primary requirements for a spear (in history) is that it was taller than the wielder.

[Spiritchaser]

Um, I hate to repeat myself. But:

UA had a spear master feat a while back that is perfect for this sort of build.

It granted one reach attack per turn to spear users, and bumped the damage die up by one, i.e. 1d8 to 1d10

Having that on a monk, particularly a kensai WOULD be a thoroughly workable (though not ideal) option.

I do appreciate the suggestion

However, as noted UA is out of bounds.

The only thing that isn’t “by the book” here is that the PHB +1 rule is not in effect.

[Quoxis]

In 5e, unfortunately, spears do not have reach

But by the book, I’m still seeing battlemaster as best

Battlemaster fighter 3/Kensai (or whatever) monk x
Variant human, feats: martial adept
spear, no armor
Maneuvers: lunging attack (+5ft range), sweeping attack (multiple targets), trip attack (speaks for itself), any other
Dex and Cha as highest stats, not too much Con (can’t really take a beating once cornered...)
Proficiency in acrobatics and performance

Done

[Unoriginal]

Or: how about using a reach weapon, and a Class that benefits from both Dex and Str, namely the Barbarian?

Maybe multiclassed with kensei later.

[Spiritchaser]

Battlemaster fighter 3/Kensai monk x
Variant human, feats: martial adept
Light armor, glaive
Maneuvers: lunging attack (+5ft range), sweeping attack (multiple targets), trip attack (speaks for itself), any other
Dex and Cha as highest stats, not too much Con (can’t really take a beating once cornered...)
Proficiency in acrobatics and performance

Done

Maybe I’m missing something but how does Kensai work with glaive? I know one of the UA versions could, but the published version does not

[Spiritchaser]

Or: how about using a reach weapon, and a Class that benefits from both Dex and Str, namely the Barbarian?

Maybe multiclassed with kensei later.

I... had not thought of barbarian.

Too bad there’s no viper totem

I’ll have to look at the book tonight

Conceptually it’s a bit off, but not totally wrong...

Thanks

[Quoxis]

Maybe I’m missing something but how does Kensai work with glaive? I know one of the UA versions could, but the published version does not

Aw dang, overread the „no heavy weapons“ kensai restriction.
Spear works though, and with battlemaster (and martial adept) you can emulate the reach 5 times per short rest.

[Sicarius Victis]

Aw dang, overread the „no heavy weapons“ kensai restriction.
Spear works though, and with battlemaster (and martial adept) you can emulate the reach 5 times per short rest.

Yes, but when wearing armour you don't benefit from Martial Arts, the ability that lets you wield spears with DEX in the first place, so I wouldn't suggest using leather armour for this. After all, a 12-13 WIS gives you the same AC as leather, and 14+ is as good as/better than studded leather.

[Quoxis]

Yes, but when wearing armour you don't benefit from Martial Arts, the ability that lets you wield spears with DEX in the first place, so I wouldn't suggest using leather armour for this. After all, a 12-13 WIS gives you the same AC as leather, and 14+ is as good as/better than studded leather.

Two mistakes (and counting) in one build. Gods damn, real life is robbing me of all that’s good and valuable it seems :P