Warlock: The Primordial Patron [PEACH]

[Wryte]

Taking a pass at an element-based warlock patron. Feedback appreciated!

Elemental Bond
At 1st level, you choose which Elemental Plane your Patron hails from, and learn cantrips giving you some limited control over the element of that plane.

* Air: Gust, Thunderclap
* Earth: Magic Stone, Mold Earth
* Fire: Bonfire, Control Flames
* Water: Frostbite, Shape Water

Additionally, you can speak, read, and write Primordial, and whenever you make a Charisma check when interacting with a creature native to your chosen plane, your proficiency bonus is doubled if it applies to the check. This choice will also affect features you gain later.

Primordial Expanded Spells
Your expanded spell list is determined by which Plane you choose with your Elemental Bond feature.

Air
1st: Thunderwave, Zephyr Strike
2nd: Dust Devil, Gust of Wind
3rd: Call Lightning, Wind Wall
4th: Freedom of Movement, Storm Sphere
5th: Control Winds, Steel Wind Strike

Earth
1st: Absorb Elements, Earth Tremor
2nd: Maximilian's Earthen Grasp, Spike Growth
3rd: Erupting Earth, Meld into Stone
4th: Stone Shape, Stoneskin
5th: Transmute Rock, Wall of Stone

Fire
1st: Burning Hands, Searing Smite
2nd: Flame Blade, Flaming Sphere
3rd: Flame Arrows, Melf's Miniature Meteors
4th: Fire Shield, Wall of Fire
5th: Flame Strike, Immolation

Water
1st: Fog Cloud, Ice Knife
2nd: Protection from Poison, Snilloc's Snowball Swarm
3rd: Sleet Storm, Wall of Water
4th: Control Water, Ice Storm
5th: Cone of Cold, Maelstrom

Elemental Deflection
Starting at 6th level, the element to which you are bound is reluctant to harm you. You have advantage on saving throws against spells and damaging effects that make use of your bound element, and attack rolls made against you making use of your bound element are made with disadvantage.

Hijack Element
Starting at 10th, level your mastery of your bound element is so great that you can wrest control of magical spells using that element from other spellcasters. Whenever a creature casts a spell that you can see within 60 feet of you, you can use your reaction to attempt to turn the spell back on that creature. You must make a Charisma saving throw against the creature's spell save DC for the same spellcasting ability as the spell you are attempting to take control of. On a success, you turn the spell back on the creature. If the spell has an area of effect, that area is centered on the creature.

Avatar of the Plane
At 14th level you undergo physical alterations to better suit you to the environment of your bound plane.

* Air: Your legs vanish, replaced by a miniature whirlwind. Your walking speed becomes 0, but you gain a flying speed of 30 feet with the ability to hover. Additionally, you suffer none of the effects of high altitude.
* Earth: Your hands develop powerful, shovel-like claws. You gain a burrowing speed of 20 feet, and your unarmed attacks deal 1d6 slashing damage.
* Fire: You become possessed of an inner fire, allowing you to regulate your own body temperature. You are immune to damage from any non-magical fire, and suffer no ill effects of extreme temperatures.
* Water: Your hands and feet become flipper-like, giving you a swimming speed equal to your walking speed. You also develop gills, giving you the ability to breath underwater. Additionally, you suffer no ill effects of extreme cold.

Eldritch Invocations

Elemental Blast (Requites the Primordial Patron and the Eldritch Blast cantrip): Whenever you cast the Eldritch Blast cantrip, you can choose to deal damage of a type associated with your element instead of Force.
* Air: Lightning
* Earth: Acid
* Fire: Fire
* Water: Cold

Empowered Element (Requires the Primordial Patron): Add your Charisma modifier to the damage dealt by the cantrips you learned from your Elemental Bond. Magic Stone adds double your Charisma modifier to its damage when you make an attack with one of the stones.

Elemental Breath (Requires level 15 and the Primordial Patron): You can cast Dragon's Breath as a 1st level spell at will without expending a spell slot, targeting only yourself and restricted to a damage type linked to your element:
* Air: Lightning
* Earth: Acid
* Fire: Fire
* Water: Cold

Elemental Contrarian: You gain resistance to a type of damage associated with your opposite element:
* Air: Acid
* Earth: Lightning
* Fire: Cold
* Water: Fire.

[Princess]

Taking a pass at an element-based warlock patron. Feedback appreciated!

Elemental Bond
At 1st level, you choose which Elemental Plane your Patron hails from, and learn cantrips giving you some limited control over the element of that plane.

* Air: Gust, Thunderclap
* Earth: Magic Stone, Mold Earth
* Fire: Bonfire, Control Flames
* Water: Frostbite, Shape Water

Additionally, you can speak, read, and write Primordial, and whenever you make a Charisma check when interacting with a creature native to your chosen plane, your proficiency bonus is doubled if it applies to the check. This choice will also affect features you gain later.

Primordial Expanded Spells
Your expanded spell list is determined by which Plane you choose with your Elemental Bond feature.

Air
1st: Thunderwave, Zephyr Strike
2nd: Dust Devil, Gust of Wind
3rd: Call Lightning, Wind Wall
4th: Freedom of Movement, Storm Sphere
5th: Control Winds, Steel Wind Strike

Earth
1st: Absorb Elements, Earth Tremor
2nd: Maximilian's Earthen Grasp, Spike Growth
3rd: Erupting Earth, Meld into Stone
4th: Stone Shape, Stoneskin
5th: Transmute Rock, Wall of Stone

Fire
1st: Burning Hands, Searing Smite
2nd: Flame Blade, Flaming Sphere
3rd: Flame Arrows, Melf's Miniature Meteors
4th: Fire Shield, Wall of Fire
5th: Flame Strike, Immolation

Water
1st: Fog Cloud, Ice Knife
2nd: Protection from Poison, Snilloc's Snowball Swarm
3rd: Sleet Storm, Wall of Water
4th: Control Water, Ice Storm
5th: Cone of Cold, Maelstrom

Elemental Deflection
Starting at 6th level, the element to which you are bound is reluctant to harm you. You have advantage on saving throws against spells and damaging effects that make use of your bound element, and attack rolls made against you making use of your bound element are made with disadvantage.

Hijack Element
Starting at 10th, level your mastery of your bound element is so great that you can wrest control of magical spells using that element from other spellcasters. Whenever a creature casts a spell that you can see within 60 feet of you, you can use your reaction to attempt to turn the spell back on that creature. You must make a Charisma saving throw against the creature's spell save DC for the same spellcasting ability as the spell you are attempting to take control of. On a success, you turn the spell back on the creature. If the spell has an area of effect, that area is centered on the creature.

Avatar of the Plane
At 14th level you undergo physical alterations to better suit you to the environment of your bound plane.

* Air: Your legs vanish, replaced by a miniature whirlwind. Your walking speed becomes 0, but you gain a flying speed of 30 feet with the ability to hover. Additionally, you suffer none of the effects of high altitude.
* Earth: Your hands develop powerful, shovel-like claws. You gain a burrowing speed of 20 feet, and your unarmed attacks deal 1d6 slashing damage.
* Fire: You become possessed of an inner fire, allowing you to regulate your own body temperature. You are immune to damage from any non-magical fire, and suffer no ill effects of extreme temperatures.
* Water: Your hands and feet become flipper-like, giving you a swimming speed equal to your walking speed. You also develop gills, giving you the ability to breath underwater. Additionally, you suffer no ill effects of extreme cold.

Eldritch Invocations

Elemental Blast (Requites the Primordial Patron and the Eldritch Blast cantrip): Whenever you cast the Eldritch Blast cantrip, you can choose to deal damage of a type associated with your element instead of Force.
* Air: Lightning
* Earth: Acid
* Fire: Fire
* Water: Cold

Empowered Element (Requires the Primordial Patron): Add your Charisma modifier to the damage dealt by the cantrips you learned from your Elemental Bond. Magic Stone adds double your Charisma modifier to its damage when you make an attack with one of the stones.

Elemental Breath (Requires level 15 and the Primordial Patron): You can cast Dragon's Breath as a 1st level spell at will without expending a spell slot, targeting only yourself and restricted to a damage type linked to your element:
* Air: Lightning
* Earth: Acid
* Fire: Fire
* Water: Cold

Elemental Contrarian: You gain resistance to a type of damage associated with your opposite element:
* Air: Acid
* Earth: Lightning
* Fire: Cold
* Water: Fire.

I like the concept and this is a great first pass!

- First thing that stands out is the spell turning ability would need a lot of playtesting to see if it's too niche and/or too powerful - there's a lot of swing in how useful it would be, similar to the undead sanctuary Undying Patron grants.

- The 14th level abilities seem potentially underwhelming compared to other existing warlock options, and some of the invocations feel like they could be woven into the subclass itself instead (Elemental Blast or Elemental Contrarian, possibly alternating for different elements?)

- Elemental Breath feels overpriced with the level 15 requirement, I'd make it lower especially considering concentrating on dragon's breath means hex, hypnotic pattern, and all the other great concentration spells would be competing with a level 2 spell. Possibly 9th level instead?

[Protato]

I like it, in both concept and in execution! Can't think of anything I'd change for what its worth.

[Dys Dogeater]

I like it but the intro ability feels a bit weak or narrow. Perhaps energy resist?

[Requilac]

I remember that a lot of people over in the 5e boards wanted primordial patrons for 5e, so it appears like you have got something in high demand on your hands. Lets see how you did.




Primordial Expanded Spells
Your expanded spell list is determined by which Plane you choose with your Elemental Bond feature.

Water
1st: Fog Cloud, Ice Knife
2nd: Protection from Poison, Snilloc's Snowball Swarm
3rd: Sleet Storm, Wall of Water
4th: Control Water, Ice Storm
5th: Cone of Cold, Maelstrom

These spell lists all look good, but one minor complaint. Why do water casters get protection from poison on the list? There are several things that could work much better. For example, alter self (you can create gills using it), animal messenger (can be an aquatic animal), darkness (conjure forth the blackest depths of the oceans), darkvision (ocean gets pretty dark at points), and misty step (mist is made from water after all).




Elemental Deflection
Starting at 6th level, the element to which you are bound is reluctant to harm you. You have advantage on saving throws against spells and damaging effects that make use of your bound element, and attack rolls made against you making use of your bound element are made with disadvantage.

I personally think you should give them resistance to the damage type which corresponds to their element at this level too (Air: lightning/thunder, earth: acid (?), fire: fire, water: cold), but other than that I do not see anything wrong here.




Avatar of the Plane
At 14th level you undergo physical alterations to better suit you to the environment of your bound plane.

* Air: Your legs vanish, replaced by a miniature whirlwind. Your walking speed becomes 0, but you gain a flying speed of 30 feet with the ability to hover. Additionally, you suffer none of the effects of high altitude.

Slight nitpick, but if you wanted to get technical than you should probably replace "you suffer none of the effects of high altitude" with "you are acclimated to high altitudes".




* Fire: You become possessed of an inner fire, allowing you to regulate your own body temperature. You are immune to damage from any non-magical fire, and suffer no ill effects of extreme temperatures.

This is really underhwelming when compared to the rest of the other effects. You should probablt give them something a little extra. Perhaps a feature which deals a small bit of damage to any creatures that hits you with a melee weapon?

Verdict: It is over all pretty well balanced. It seems a little under powered to me, but not by a massive enough amount to make you obsolete. I don't really feel either way about this patron really, it is satisfactory by most scales including theme and balance, but not much exceeding that. I would allow someone at my table to play it, but I doubt that I would ever play it myself. Not bad work here.

[Wryte]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone!


- First thing that stands out is the spell turning ability would need a lot of playtesting to see if it's too niche and/or too powerful - there's a lot of swing in how useful it would be, similar to the undead sanctuary Undying Patron grants.

Reading over the feature again, I notice that I forgot to specify that Hijack only works on spells using your element. You may have already drawn that conclusion from the context, though, so I don't know if that changes your appraisal. My main concern with this feature is, as you say, if it's too niche - my secondary concern being that it has too few applications for Earth. Let's try expanding what it can do, while limiting it by rests.

Hijack Element
Starting at 10th, level your mastery of your bound element is so great that you can wrest control of magical spells using that element from other spellcasters. When a creature that you can see casts a spell or targets a creature or area within 60 feet of you, if that spell is on your Expanded Spell List, deals damage of the type associated with your element, or makes use of your element, you can use your reaction to attempt to turn the spell back on that creature. You must make a Charisma saving throw against the creature's spell save DC for the same spellcasting ability as the spell you are attempting to take control of. On a success, you take control of the spell, choosing which creature or area it targets. You can use this feature twice. When you finish a short or long rest, you regain your expended uses.


- The 14th level abilities seem potentially underwhelming compared to other existing warlock options, and some of the invocations feel like they could be woven into the subclass itself instead (Elemental Blast or Elemental Contrarian, possibly alternating for different elements?)

Elemental Blast as a baseline feature seems a bit extra, given than I'm already giving each elemental pact an associated damaging cantrip. Maybe switch it the other way around, so that the base feature gives the elemental damage option, and the invocation grants the other cantrip? But does that leave 1st level feeling underwhelming?

Feedback seems to indicate that Avatar of the Plane feels a little underwhelming, so adding Contrarian to its benefits might give it that little extra oomph.


- Elemental Breath feels overpriced with the level 15 requirement, I'd make it lower especially considering concentrating on dragon's breath means hex, hypnotic pattern, and all the other great concentration spells would be competing with a level 2 spell. Possibly 9th level instead?

You may be right about 15, but 9 feels a bit low to me. Dragon's Breath on demand, even restricted to 2nd level and a single element, still means some solid on-demand AoE. Let's think through this.

We'll compare it to Eldritch Blast, which would be a typical warlock's other unlimited ability for targeting multiple creatures. Eldritch Blast starts with 1 1d10 beam, adding another beam at 5th (2), 11th (3), and 17th (4) levels. Each beam individually benefits from Hex, and from relevant invocations, and can target creatures anywhere within range regardless of their positions relative to one another. EB is a ranged spell attack, allowing the warlock to fire it from a safe distance, and can target multiple beams on the same creature if they have fewer than the maximum number of targets, so none of them are wasted. Assuming the warlock has Agonizing Blast, EB is dealing an average 5(8 w/Hex) + Cha at 1st, 10(16) + 2x Cha at 5th, 15(24) + 3x Cha at 11th, and 20(32) + 4x Cha at 17th, assuming all beams hit.

Dragon's Breath is a 15 ft cone, meaning it can hit anywhere up to 6 creatures in a single attack if they're clustered closely enough (more if they're somehow stacked on each other, such as mounting). Such tight clustering is going to be pretty rare, though, so 2-4 is probably more typical. This also means that the warlock has to be within close range to use it, making themself vulnerable. DB deals 2d6 to each target, halved on save. Assuming the warlock has 2/3/4 targets in their area of effect, they are dealing an average of 14/21/28 damage, or 6/9/12 if all targets save.

So DB's average damage isn't too far off from a buffed EB's at 11th, and falls behind at 17th, baring the rare occasion that the warlock actually get 6 enemies clustered close enough to hit them all. It's also less flexible, riskier for the warlock, and requires concentration. Putting all that together, I think you're right. 15th is definitely too high, and 9th should be fine.


I like it but the intro ability feels a bit weak or narrow. Perhaps energy resist?

It's a thought, if I was inclined to take that route I would have just given them that as their 6th level feature instead of coming up with Elemental Deflection. I feel like just handing out resistance gets a little generic.


These spell lists all look good, but one minor complaint. Why do water casters get protection from poison on the list? There are several things that could work much better. For example, alter self (you can create gills using it), animal messenger (can be an aquatic animal), darkness (conjure forth the blackest depths of the oceans), darkvision (ocean gets pretty dark at points), and misty step (mist is made from water after all).

Lack of other choices, mostly. Alter Self is already an invocation (albeit a high level one), animal messenger is a stretch for relevance, Darkness and Misty Step are already on the standard warlock spell list, and warlocks can get a better version of permanent Darkvision from an invocation. That said, I think I'll switch Protection from Poison for Lesser Restoration.


I personally think you should give them resistance to the damage type which corresponds to their element at this level too (Air: lightning/thunder, earth: acid (?), fire: fire, water: cold), but other than that I do not see anything wrong here.

Again, just handing them resistance feels kind of generic; that's why I came up with this feature in the first place. That said, maybe we can beef if up a bit.

Elemental Deflection
Starting at 6th level, the element to which you are bound is reluctant to harm you. When you are subjected to an effect involving your bound element or its associated damage type that allows you to make a saving throw to take only half damage, you instead take no damage if you succeed, and only half damage if you fail. Additionally, attack rolls made against you making use of your bound element or its associated damage type are made with disadvantage.


This is really underhwelming when compared to the rest of the other effects. You should probablt give them something a little extra. Perhaps a feature which deals a small bit of damage to any creatures that hits you with a melee weapon?

A bit redundant, given the presence of Fire Shield on their spell list, but Fire does probably need something a little more here. Maybe the addition of immunity to non-magical cold damage? Or an unarmed attack that deals Fire instead of Bludgeoning damage off their Cha mod instead of Str?

[Requilac]

Lack of other choices, mostly. Alter Self is already an invocation (albeit a high level one), animal messenger is a stretch for relevance, Darkness and Misty Step are already on the standard warlock spell list, and warlocks can get a better version of permanent Darkvision from an invocation. That said, I think I'll switch Protection from Poison for Lesser Restoration.

Well, I would still say that an other spell is a better choice. Protection from Poison and Lesser Restoration don't support the theme at all, and in fact sort of are contradictory towards it. When I think of warlocks I think of spooky evil magic (unless told specifically otherwise), so I would imagine the water primordial to be something like a kraken, an aquatic unseelie fey or possibly even dagon, so restoration spells are kind conflicting with that image. Alter self still has use because you can get it at a low level, and most campaigns do not reach 15th level anyway, making it a far better choice than the invocation. Darkvision is still helpful because although witch sight gives you a sort of darkvision, the spell can give other people darkvision too. Animal messeneger is a little bit of a stretch too, but it is certainly not any more of a stretch than Protection from Poison and Lesser Restoration. What about these two spells make you think they fit the theme exactly, because I find myself confused by them being there. Sorry if I sound too nitpicky or argumentative, I am just trying to help and don't mean to be offensive .

[/QUOTE]
A bit redundant, given the presence of Fire Shield on their spell list, but Fire does probably need something a little more here. Maybe the addition of immunity to non-magical cold damage? Or an unarmed attack that deals Fire instead of Bludgeoning damage off their Cha mod instead of Str?[/QUOTE]

Not every warlock is going to have fire shield on their list and on all the time, so something that generates a similar effect is still useful. I like the unarmed strike idea too, but my only concern is that it is too similar to the earth primordial's feature. Either way, you are right that fire does need more.

[retaliation08]

The spell Hijack thing is interesting, but I'm not sure that it works. So many conditions regarding the spells you can hijack, and then if you CAN hijack a spell, do you want to? An area spell centered on the caster could really screw up your other party members.

I think it would work better as a Counterspell ability. Maybe counter spells of your element, or of your opposing element, or even both so its more applicable.

This may not be up your alley or might be overly complicated, but maybe if you counter a spell of your element, the next spell you cast within the next 1 minute does not expend a spell slot if it is from your expanded spell list.

EDIT: I only read down to this Hijack ability, but it all looks pretty good and fairly simple/straightforward. Ill try to come back to it tomorrow.