Elemental bloodline Q

[finaldooms]

So after years of playing 3.5 a friend finally is convincing me to try out pathfinder!
Since il be joining a group of meat shields. ...i mean powerful warriors who have amazing skill at hitting things...i decided to make an earth elemental bloodline sorc ( cause who doesn't like a little acid now and then)

Now a good chunk of my spells will NOT be blasty blasty smashy smashy but i will get a few...so my question

Can i turn magic missle into acid magic missle via my bloodline? Would it still be an auto hit? What about on ghosts since it loses the force descriptor?

Also if i get something to buff acid spells and effects does that affect anything i use my bloodline stuff on?

[Eldonauran]

Magic missile? No, it is a force effect, not an elemental spell. Your bloodline ability will not effect it.

Most effects that will boost your acid spells should stack with whatever your bloodline abilities do.

[Kurald Galain]

Can i turn magic missle into acid magic missle via my bloodline? Would it still be an auto hit? What about on ghosts since it loses the force descriptor? Also if i get something to buff acid spells and effects does that affect anything i use my bloodline stuff on?

(1) Yes, since "force" is a type of energy damage. (2) Yes, since your arcana doesn't modify to-hit changes. (3) No, since the arcana also modifies the spell type (which is synonymous to 'descriptor'). (4) Yes, since the arcana also modifies the spell type.

(note that converting force damage to acid damage is not an improvement, and that as far as I'm aware nothing useful exists that buffs acid spells and effects).

[Eldonauran]

Force is NOT an elemental energy type, it is a spell descriptor. Force is no more an elemental energy type than fear or light. Electricity, cold, fire, acid, and then sonic are energy types (positive and negative energy are too) I’m looking for the rules reference so I will post a link when I find it.

EDIT: So, I can’t find a table or text entry that specifically lists out what is and is not energy damage. However, we can see that the bloodline restricts you to fire, cold, acid, or electricity to choose your energy type. There are only four elemental planes in existence for the core setting, and two energy planes (positive and negative). Force is not a plane, or called out as energy damage in any reference I could find (if you find something different, let me know).

[Kurald Galain]

Force is NOT an energy type, it is a spell descriptor.

It is both. A spell with the [force] descriptor deals "force damage" precisely as how a spell with the [fire] descriptor deals "fire damage". For example, the Bladebound's energy attunement ability can make his weapon deal force damage (among other energy types).

Just because it's not elemental doesn't mean it's not energy.

[Eldonauran]

Force damage does not mean force “energy” damage. Force is not an energy. Just like slashing is not an energy. It might be magical in nature but that does not make it energy. It is a damage type, but their are damage types that are not energy

[Kurald Galain]

Force damage does not mean force “energy” damage.

Perhaps you should read that Bladebound again that I mentioned above :smallbiggrin:

Or heck, read the Magic Missile spell. It states that a "missile of magical energy darts forth from your fingertip..." :smallamused:

[Eldonauran]

Perhaps you should read that Bladebound again that I mentioned above :smallbiggrin:

Or heck, read the Magic Missile spell. It states that a "missile of magical energy darts forth from your fingertip..." :smallamused:

I’ve read both. The name of an ability does not impact the descriptor or energy type of an attack. The same with magic missile. Yes, it is a magical energy that flies out, but it deals force damage, not energy damage.

I know this appears to be semantic in nature, but I could find no support for force being considered an energy attack. Look at Elemental Spell feat, or any other spell that deals with resisting energy damage. They call out specific elements, force not being among them.

[finaldooms]

So this would possibly be an up to the DM kinda thing
( honestly he said he didnt see a reason why not i just was curious if it was allowed via RAW)

90% oc the time id just leave it as force lol..but say we encounter a troll or something else that happens to be weak to acid and im just having a bad dice day i figured it would be cool to be able to do such a thing.

Would my bloodline affect double damage things such as meteor strike...swarm..? ( idr the name atm)
So it would do acid/bludg instead of fire/bludge?

[Daefos]

Energy damage: Damage caused by one of five types of energy (not counting positive and negative energy): acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic.

"Force" is not an energy type. Force damage is not energy damage.

That's from D&D, but there's no reason to assume it wasn't carried over into Pathfinder. Every instance of variable energy resistance (the Resist Energy spell, (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/r/resist-energy/) a Ring of Energy Resistance, (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rings/ring-of-energy-resistance/) the Energy Resistance armor enchantment, (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/magic-armor-and-shield-special-abilities/energy-resistance/) even Rage Powers (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo-rage-powers/energy-resistance-ex/)) refers back to those five types. The only argument in favour of force being a type of energy damage is that nothing ever explicitly, flat-out, word-for-word says it isn't. That's never a winning position.

The fact that a Magus with the Bladebound archetype can deal force damage with his sword in addition to actual energy damage is irrelevant. A Monk with the Elemental Fist and Snake Style feats can deal both fire and piercing damage with his fists, but that doesn't make "piercing" a type of energy damage.

[TheFamilarRaven]

James Jacobs (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=476?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here#23772) answered this question. It's not the first time this has come up. The question was related to positive and negative energy, but here's an excerpt...


There are 5 energy types in the game that cause damage: acid, cold, fire, electricity, and sonic. In many cases, sonic is left off since it's one that so few monsters are resistant or immune to. The sorcerer's elemental bloodline arcana and spell feats cannot affect positive or negative energy at all.

Since Force is also not an energy type, in the same way positive energy is not an energy type, than elemental bloodline can not be used on Magic Missile.

[Eldonauran]

James Jacobs (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=476?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here#23772) answered this question. It's not the first time this has come up. The question was related to positive and negative energy, but here's an excerpt...


There are 5 energy types in the game that cause damage: acid, cold, fire, electricity, and sonic. In many cases, sonic is left off since it's one that so few monsters are resistant or immune to. The sorcerer's elemental bloodline arcana and spell feats cannot affect positive or negative energy at all.

Since Force is also not an energy type, in the same way positive energy is not an energy type, than elemental bloodline can not be used on Magic Missile.
Thanks for the link. I seriously could not find anything, ANYWHERE, in the Core rulebook for Pathfinder that explicitly listed out the elemental energy types like they did in 3.5e.

[Kurald Galain]

It's pretty ridiculous to claim that positive energy isn't a kind of energy, though :smallamused:

Thankfully this is only in a forum post, and not in the FAQ, the errata, the campaign clarifications, or another official document.

[grarrrg]

It's pretty ridiculous to claim that positive energy isn't a kind of energy, though :smallamused:

Since when do the rules make sense though?

[Zaq]

It's pretty ridiculous to claim that positive energy isn't a kind of energy, though :smallamused:

Thankfully this is only in a forum post, and not in the FAQ, the errata, the campaign clarifications, or another official document.

Yeah, and acid is a substance rather than an energy. And ranged touch attacks don't have a range of touch. But we shrug and keep going.

Words are weird. Game terms are often weirder. But our hope is that game terms are useful when used consistently.

[Eldonauran]

It's pretty ridiculous to claim that positive energy isn't a kind of energy, though :smallamused:

Thankfully this is only in a forum post, and not in the FAQ, the errata, the campaign clarifications, or another official document.

Yes, I think it is a bit ridiculous to claim the positive energy isn't a type of energy. However, it is not an ELEMENTAL energy, which is what I think they were getting at.

[Calthropstu]

(1) Yes, since "force" is a type of energy damage. (2) Yes, since your arcana doesn't modify to-hit changes. (3) No, since the arcana also modifies the spell type (which is synonymous to 'descriptor'). (4) Yes, since the arcana also modifies the spell type.

(note that converting force damage to acid damage is not an improvement, and that as far as I'm aware nothing useful exists that buffs acid spells and effects).

This is incorrect. Force is a descriptor type, not an energy type. Energy types are fire, acid, electric, cold and sonic. It could be argued that positive and negative energy are energy types, so I suppose you could change influct light wounds into acid damage. But that is a different argument. There are specific rules for force, and nowhere in them does it say energy.

When switching between 3.5 and pf, you must remember pf is a different system. It plays similar, but there's a lot of things that will seem the same, but are different.