Scorpion's Grasp

[PraxisVetli]

So I saw a post in a thread from long ago where someone had said:

I wonder how this works with a Kusiri Gama as the weapon, especially since grappling moves you into their space? Could be really cool to swing around the battlefield in a spiderman like fashion by dual wielding these and attacking, moving to their square and grappeling to do unarmed damage, dropping the grapple as a free action and using your second attack to hit a different target to move to them. :smallbiggrin:
Does this work? I need to know.

[Necroticplague]

So I saw a post in a thread from long ago where someone had said:

Does this work? I need to know.

The part about spider manning to their square if you use this to grapple with a reach weapon: yes.

The rest is horrifically wrong on several levels.
1. Starting a grapple doesn’t do unarmed damage.
2. You can’t release someone as a free action unless you’ve pinned them, which requires its own attack action.

[PraxisVetli]

But if I put this feat with the Kusari on a Black Blood Cultist, then I can spiderman to them, grapple, get my full attack, then pin, correct?
And if I have Choke Hold, then 1 round later, they pass out, Move Action Coup de Grace with Stranglehold, and then I can spooder over to someone else and repeat?

[Necroticplague]

But if I put this feat with the Kusari on a Black Blood Cultist, then I can spiderman to them, grapple, get my full attack, then pin, correct?
And if I have Choke Hold, then 1 round later, they pass out, Move Action Coup de Grace with Stranglehold, and then I can spooder over to someone else and repeat?

1. Savage Grapple (the relevant BBC ability) isn’t a full attack. It’s damage as if you had hit with all your natural weapons. Arguably, this is better, as no attack roll is needed.
2. Yes for the first part, but only if you have BaB of greater than six, and at the standard penalty for iteratives (your pin attempt would be at -5).
3. For the second part, this starts to break down for reasons that can be summed up as Choke Hold really sucking. They wouldn’t save vs. falling unconscious until the end of your second turn, so you couldn’t CdG them until the start of your third. So you still have one full round of normal grappling to do before you can do anything fancy. And he’s guaranteed to get at least one chance to escape the pin.
4. Considering the amount of damage you can pump out with Savage Grapple, anybody weak enough to be subject to Choke Hold would probably already be dead by failing attttempts to escape, and anybody tough enough to weather being hit by all your natural weapons 3 times probably is also strong enough to break a pin or grapple.

[PraxisVetli]

BUT!
If my DM rules that the PoW* discipline Fool's Errand 'Lock' ability is treated as Pinned, then I can swing to them, Grapple, Lock, and at the start of my 2nd turn Coup de Grace?

The Grand Purpose here is to use Stalker from PoW with the Brutal Slayer Archetype to use Phantom Reach Stalker Art to activate Fools Errand maneuver Iron Grip at close range(25+5/2 levels), swoop in, grapple, Stranglehold, lock, then next turn use a move action to Coup de Grace so my Standard Action can be me repeating the process.
IDEALLY this would make a decent grappler build with high mobility, and decent output.

*PoW is Path of War from Dreamscarred Press.

[Necroticplague]

BUT!
If my DM rules that the PoW* discipline Fool's Errand 'Lock' ability is treated as Pinned, then I can swing to them, Grapple, Lock, and at the start of my 2nd turn Coup de Grace?
No, because it still faces the same problem as before. It's not a full round until it goes from the end of this turn to the end of your next turn. No matter what you do, you will have one round of grappling them/having them locked normally before you can K.O. them. The problem isn't with Pinning, or with Locking, it's with Choke Hold's 'one full round'.

[PraxisVetli]

No, because it still faces the same problem as before. It's not a full round until it goes from the end of this turn to the end of your next turn. No matter what you do, you will have one round of grappling them/having them locked normally before you can K.O. them. The problem isn't with Pinning, or with Locking, it's with Choke Hold's 'one full round'.

Alright.
I was hoping I could find a way through it, seems I'll need a different strategy.
Thanks for your help!

[PraxisVetli]

Ok, maybe I have something.
I understand that I need the extra full round to get Choke Hold to proc.
So if I take Sand Snare from Sandstorm, that could by me my round, and IF I win initiative, I'll trip them, lock and pin them, then thdy get to spend the whole round standing up, but before their next initiative I would have mine, and they'd be unconscious.
Right?

Sorry, I just really wanted this to work, so I'm trying to find a way.

[Necroticplague]

Ok, maybe I have something.
I understand that I need the extra full round to get Choke Hold to proc.
So if I take Sand Snare from Sandstorm, that could by me my round, and IF I win initiative, I'll trip them, lock and pin them, then they get to spend the whole round standing up, but before their next initiative I would have mine, and they'd be unconscious.
Right?

Sorry, I just really wanted this to work, so I'm trying to find a way.

Except that they don't have to spend the full round action. That's only if they want to stand up. If they'd rather spend their actions to break your grapple, they're perfectly free to do so. So it's not any different from the previous example. Heck, grapple checks don't even take penalties for being prone, so the trip is rather irrelevant. So they still get 1 rounds of attempts to escape.

And even if that did work, that doesn't cancel out that this plan has way too many points of failure. Even if your plan worked, it simply replaces the grapple checks/escape artist checks to escape with an opposed STR or DEX roll vs. tripper. Even if it worked, here's the full list of what rolls are needed for this to work:
1. You'd need to beat their AC for the trip's unarmed touch attack.
2. You'd need to beat them in an opposed check for trip.
3. You'd need to beat them in a grapple check to establish a grapple
4. You'd need to beat another grapple check to pin them
5. They'd need to fail a save vs. Chokehold.
6. They'd either need to fail a save vs. Coup-de-grace or be killed by the damage of it.

[daremetoidareyo]

Improved grab seems to be the way to go. You can pin in a round and Not be considered grappled yourself. I think a barbarian dip can get you there.

Ranged pin + rapid shot + choke hold + harpoon might do it though, at range, weirdly enough

[Blue Jay]

The rest is horrifically wrong on several levels.
1. Starting a grapple doesn’t do unarmed damage.

Here's the first paragraph of Step 3 under "Starting a Grapple":


Step 3: Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action. If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike."

[PraxisVetli]

Except that they don't have to spend the full round action. That's only if they want to stand up. If they'd rather spend their actions to break your grapple, they're perfectly free to do so. So it's not any different from the previous example. Heck, grapple checks don't even take penalties for being prone, so the trip is rather irrelevant. So they still get 1 rounds of attempts to escape.

And even if that did work, that doesn't cancel out that this plan has way too many points of failure. Even if your plan worked, it simply replaces the grapple checks/escape artist checks to escape with an opposed STR or DEX roll vs. tripper. Even if it worked, here's the full list of what rolls are needed for this to work:
1. You'd need to beat their AC for the trip's unarmed touch attack.
2. You'd need to beat them in an opposed check for trip.
3. You'd need to beat them in a grapple check to establish a grapple
4. You'd need to beat another grapple check to pin them
5. They'd need to fail a save vs. Chokehold.
6. They'd either need to fail a save vs. Coup-de-grace or be killed by the damage of it.

Alright, if you're willing, I'd like to try a different approach.
Instead of blind-firing and you telling me what's wrong, is there a way that will work?
I'm not super attached to anything except the initial hit then grapple, the spiderman technique. If I gotta ditch choke hold completely, if it's for something better, that's fine.

[Necroticplague]

Alright, if you're willing, I'd like to try a different approach.
Instead of blind-firing and you telling me what's wrong, is there a way that will work?
I'm not super attached to anything except the initial hit then grapple, the spiderman technique. If I gotta ditch choke hold completely, if it's for something better, that's fine.Justicar has the ability to hog-tie someone into helpessness as a move action. That allows you perform a similar sequence of maneuvers much more efficiently. Cleave improves the action economy even further.

[PraxisVetli]

Justicar has the ability to hog-tie someone into helpessness as a move action. That allows you perform a similar sequence of maneuvers much more efficiently. Cleave improves the action economy even further.

Justicar is easy entry, and Hog Tie and Improved look effective.
Improved says it can be done 'Whenever a grapple is established, the justiciar can use an attack action to make a hog-tie attempt.'
What is an 'attack action'? Is that inclusive of iteritives, or does it mean a standard action?
If it's a standard, is this method still more effective?

Also, with being level 6 minimum to get it, Hog Tie comes online at 11 and Improved at 14 at best, if I miss no BAB.
I was hoping to have the build online by say 10 or 11 at the latest. Is there a way to get something similar earlier?

[Necroticplague]

Justicar is easy entry, and Hog Tie and Improved look effective.
Improved says it can be done 'Whenever a grapple is established, the justiciar can use an attack action to make a hog-tie attempt.'
What is an 'attack action'? Is that inclusive of iteritives, or does it mean a standard action?
An attack action is what you get whenever you make an attack. So AoOs are attack actions, as are iteratives. Think of it as equivalent to Grapples “in place of a melee attack” or Disarm’s “as a melee attack”.
So with Improved Hog Tie, you could make a full-attack, use your first to grapple, then use your second to try and tie them up.