Shadow Hand maneuvers for Cleric-based RKVs?

[danielxcutter]

As title. I think Island of Blades could synergize well with the Knight's Move spell, but not sure about the others.

Just curious btw, not planning on playing one anytime soon.

[Venger]

I recently finished constructing a bunch of rkvs for an optimization exercise.

Shadow hand just kind of sucks. Its offensive maneuvers all have way too many limitations on them.

Island of blades on a swordsage, skulk, or other precision damage focused guy is a pretty solid stance. What is your chassis? Do you care about precision damage? If not, you reap little utility from it.

Maneuverswise, shadow jaunt is a perfectly good use of your 7th.

[danielxcutter]

I recently finished constructing a bunch of rkvs for an optimization exercise.

Shadow hand just kind of sucks. Its offensive maneuvers all have way too many limitations on them.

Island of blades on a swordsage, skulk, or other precision damage focused guy is a pretty solid stance. What is your chassis? Do you care about precision damage? If not, you reap little utility from it.

Maneuverswise, shadow jaunt is a perfectly good use of your 7th.

Chassis is Cleric 6-> Crusader 1 -> RKV 5 -> Cleric 2 -> RKV 5 -> Cleric 1.

I mentioned Island of Blades because Knight's Move lets you move to the nearest flanking position in move range as a swift action, so I thought they'd combo nicely... It does work like that, I hope? Also, there's always Assassin's Stance.

[Venger]

Chassis is Cleric 6-> Crusader 1 -> RKV 5 -> Cleric 2 -> RKV 5 -> Cleric 1.

I mentioned Island of Blades because Knight's Move lets you move to the nearest flanking position in move range as a swift action, so I thought they'd combo nicely... It does work like that, I hope? Also, there's always Assassin's Stance.

Why on earth are you going back into cleric? I assume you take a 2 lvl hiatus to learn more high level maneuvers, but dip something else that progresses your casting rather than go back into cleric, such as the popular church inquisitor, which is a good mesh with an rkv

I'm aware of what island of blades and knight's move do, and yes, that interaction does work that way, but my question is, with the build you've listed, why exactly do you care about flanking? you don't really have any precision damage, and that isn't your primary means of dealing damage in melee. even if you do spend a stance known on assassin's stance, you'd be expending a 3rd level slot and your swift for the round for an extra 7 damage? It doesn't really make sense.

[Darrin]

Island of Blades + knight's move gives you a lot more options on which squares you can teleport to, as any square adjacent to your opponent can provide flanking. Adaptable Flanker feat (PHBII) might also open up some squares, although the timing might be a little wonky (can't use Adaptable Flanker until you're actually adjacent to your opponent).

Assassin's Stance gives you sneak attack damage against flanked opponents, and can qualify you for Craven, Staggering Strike, etc. But you can't combine that with Island of Blades unless you use Dual Stance.

Usually the first maneuver I try to grab out of Shadow Hand is Cloak of Shadows, but if you're attacking while invisible, you usually don't *need* flanking at that point, as your target is most likely already denied his Dex bonus. Mostly the stuff I'm looking for in Shadow Hand are the movement/teleport stuff.

As far as strikes go, Shadow Blade Technique can be useful for crit-fishers, as you get two chances to roll a crit. Bloodletting Strike is decent, still does 2 Con damage on a successful save. Shadow Hand also has two of the very few ranged maneuvers: Shadow Garrote and Shadow Noose. The capstone maneuver is at least very fun to shout out loud, but a bookkeeping nightmare to actually use.

Combining knight's move with RKV and Crinti Shadow Marauder gets somewhat interesting, as you can swift-action Shadow Pounce without waiting for Shadow Blink to come online.

[Venger]

Island of Blades + knight's move gives you a lot more options on which squares you can teleport to, as any square adjacent to your opponent can provide flanking. Adaptable Flanker feat (PHBII) might also open up some squares, although the timing might be a little wonky (can't use Adaptable Flanker until you're actually adjacent to your opponent).
While that's certainly true, you could teleport with just as precise aim with other spells from the cleric list, other shadow hand maneuvers, the blink shirt, or even anklets of translocation.

While island of blades is okay, at the upper levels of RKV when it opens up aura of perfect and order and stuff, being in island of blades comes at a fairly high opportunity cost for a character who on the face of it, isn't really a lockdown or skulk build who should be spending all his time in this stance.


Assassin's Stance gives you sneak attack damage against flanked opponents, and can qualify you for Craven, Staggering Strike, etc. But you can't combine that with Island of Blades unless you use Dual Stance.
Right, but even if you spend some of your feats on this, and you contrive circumstances to flank a lot, you're not getting a lot from it. It's easier for you to just use your spells or other maneuvers to attack bad guys.

Getting into mo9 as an rkv is super expensive. Even if you can swing it, it's coming at the cost of really being ablt to do much else. if you were in assassin's stance and island of blades at the same time, it'd come at the cost of your higher level stances again


Usually the first maneuver I try to grab out of Shadow Hand is Cloak of Shadows, but if you're attacking while invisible, you usually don't *need* flanking at that point, as your target is most likely already denied his Dex bonus. Mostly the stuff I'm looking for in Shadow Hand are the movement/teleport stuff.
I agree. shadow blink is really the only worthwhile one. it isn't supernatural and doesn't have any prereqs.


Combining knight's move with RKV and Crinti Shadow Marauder gets somewhat interesting, as you can swift-action Shadow Pounce without waiting for Shadow Blink to come online.
that's true, but it ropes in mounted combat and stealthy as further taxes to pay, which is kind of a pain in the butt.

[Darrin]

I agree. shadow blink is really the only worthwhile one. it isn't supernatural and doesn't have any prereqs.


Actually I consider Shadow Stride to be the most important of the three, as you probably need your swift action to do something else, such as a boost/counter, knight's move, or refreshing your maneuvers as a Warblade. If you're more Crusader than Warblade, then most of your maneuvers are standard action strikes, and having something interesting to do with your move action may be more important than what you're doing with your swift action.



that's true, but it ropes in mounted combat and stealthy as further taxes to pay, which is kind of a pain in the butt.

Not nearly as much of a pain to get into Telflammar Shadowlord.

[Venger]

Actually I consider Shadow Stride to be the most important of the three, as you probably need your swift action to do something else, such as a boost/counter, knight's move, or refreshing your maneuvers as a Warblade. If you're more Crusader than Warblade, then most of your maneuvers are standard action strikes, and having something interesting to do with your move action may be more important than what you're doing with your swift action.
That's a very good point. It is more interesting than law bearer, and leaves your 7 open for white raven hammer



Not nearly as much of a pain to get into Telflammar Shadowlord.

oh yeah, which is why I didn't mention it as an alternative. cool class though.

[darkdragoon]

Obscuring Shadow Veil as an extra penalty sounds okayish, plus it's a bit of extra damage when it hits.

Bloodletting Strike and Strength Draining Strike still do ability damage on a save.

[danielxcutter]

Why no PrCs for the Cleric side? Well... RKV's don't really need them, I guess.

Also, flanking isn't quite that important for this build, yeah... The main reason was for easy moving when combined with Knight's Move, though I do think there are a couple of White Raven maneuvers that work when flanking or something... Helps out other players though, and a +2 is a +2 after all!

The other suggestions sound nice too!