Which Barbarian Primal Path is the most optimal?

[Insertmeme]

I've been wanting to play a Barbarian class, but I am unsure of what my build should be. What Primal Path is most optimal for say, a Half-Elf Barbarian?

[Specter]

Depends on what you want to do.

If you want to live forever, Zealot. If you want to protect your friends, Ancestral Guardian. If you want to laugh in the face of damage, Totem (Bear). If you want to help your friends deal damage, Totem (Wolf). Etc.

[rbstr]

I think Zealot does the most damage (well, maybe berserker actually, but who wants exhaustion?). If that's the "optimal" you're looking for.

[Waazraath]

I'd like to make a case for the Berserker. I have the idea people dislike the exhaustion mechanic that much, that they judge it too harshly. The extra attack it gives is tremendously strong, it should have a drawback, or be overpowered. Also the other subclass abilities (some immunities when raging, and yet another extra attack as a reaction) are very powerful. The subclass requiers careful resource management though. And it depends a bit on the campaign. It'll be better in campaigns with relatively few encounters / day, and in campaigns that have a few days in between 'days of action', in which a Berserker can recover from exhaustion.

[Sigreid]

I think totem barbarian is probably the best overall, if you remember that you can select features from a different animal each pick. Bear is pretty close to a no brainer at level 3 unless your group is melee heavy in which case wolf might be better. At level 6 I think wolf's ability to track and move quickly while in stealth makes you a great scout while Elk's doubling the movement speed of yourself and up to 10 allies (including mounts) are better than the bear's carrying capacity buff. Just as a couple of examples.

[Waazraath]

I think totem barbarian is probably the best overall, if you remember that you can select features from a different animal each pick. Bear is pretty close to a no brainer at level 3 unless your group is melee heavy in which case wolf might be better. At level 6 I think wolf's ability to track and move quickly while in stealth makes you a great scout while Elk's doubling the movement speed of yourself and up to 10 allies (including mounts) are better than the bear's carrying capacity buff. Just as a couple of examples.

For level6 totem, I think the Tiger (2 free skills) is best in most campaigns.

[Caelic]

I'd like to make a case for the Berserker. I have the idea people dislike the exhaustion mechanic that much, that they judge it too harshly. The extra attack it gives is tremendously strong, it should have a drawback, or be overpowered.


The thing is that other barbarian classes can effectively replicate that bonus attack through feat selection. A barbarian with GWM is going to get a bonus attack every time he drops an opponent, and one with Polearm Master is going to just get a bonus attack, period. Given that these feats are synergistic and highly beneficial to the barbarian in any case, there's not a huge cost of opportunity to taking them. (Most barbarians are going to want GWM for the reckless-attack-plus-ten-damage combo in any event.)

[Caelic]

I think totem barbarian is probably the best overall, if you remember that you can select features from a different animal each pick. Bear is pretty close to a no brainer at level 3 unless your group is melee heavy in which case wolf might be better. At level 6 I think wolf's ability to track and move quickly while in stealth makes you a great scout while Elk's doubling the movement speed of yourself and up to 10 allies (including mounts) are better than the bear's carrying capacity buff. Just as a couple of examples.


Totem Barbarian's certainly the most flexible and customizable, which is nice; you can tailor it to what you want to do.

[Waazraath]

The thing is that other barbarian classes can effectively replicate that bonus attack through feat selection. A barbarian with GWM is going to get a bonus attack every time he drops an opponent, and one with Polearm Master is going to just get a bonus attack, period. Given that these feats are synergistic and highly beneficial to the barbarian in any case, there's not a huge cost of opportunity to taking them. (Most barbarians are going to want GWM for the reckless-attack-plus-ten-damage combo in any event.)

I understand what you're saying. But. There is opportunity cost though, imo:
- GWM bonus action less reliable, depends on luck. Frenzy is there when you need it (boss fights)
- GWM and Polearm Master = 2 feats, is -2 on attack an damage compared to a bbn that just raises strength (though at some point, the Berserker probablly wants GWM as well in a game with feats).
- the bonus action from Polearm Master = 1d4, compared to (probably) 1d12, that's another 4 damage less on average
- the reaction attack from Polearm Master is much less reliable than the Berserker ability (and deals 1 less damage)
- immunities at lvl 6 are still better than anything for example Totem has to offer

All of this disregarding the fact that feats are an optional rule (and yes, I've played several games in this way - it does happen). In a featless game, I'd say Berserker might be the most powerful subclass. In a game with feats, it's still good.

[Unoriginal]

I've been wanting to play a Barbarian class, but I am unsure of what my build should be. What Primal Path is most optimal for say, a Half-Elf Barbarian?

None of them. They're all pretty much equivalent, though of course aren't the same everywhere.

[Blood of Gaea]

All of this disregarding the fact that feats are an optional rule (and yes, I've played several games in this way - it does happen). In a featless game, I'd say Berserker might be the most powerful subclass. In a game with feats, it's still good.
If you have a way to recover exhaustion reliably, like a Cleric teammate, I would agree with you.

Also, you compared PAM + GWM vs. +4 Str as a Berserker, when the comparison should be PAM vs +2 Str. And don't forget that PAM also allows reaction attacks more commonly.

[Socratov]

I'd like to make a case for the Berserker. I have the idea people dislike the exhaustion mechanic that much, that they judge it too harshly. The extra attack it gives is tremendously strong, it should have a drawback, or be overpowered. Also the other subclass abilities (some immunities when raging, and yet another extra attack as a reaction) are very powerful. The subclass requiers careful resource management though. And it depends a bit on the campaign. It'll be better in campaigns with relatively few encounters / day, and in campaigns that have a few days in between 'days of action', in which a Berserker can recover from exhaustion.

While in combat it's very strong, out of combat you get nothing, even worse, if you use your frenzy more then once per day, the penalties will become hefty. So much in fact that you get penalties for non-frenzy attacks, your skills will be worth zilch and out of combat you will have all the use of a wet towel.

So in combat, yes the berserker is great if you get one combat per day where you can shine like a crazy diamond. If you go beyond that, you are going to be **** outta luck and better hope your mates will carry you.

And before you start, yes the exhaustion mechanics beyond the first are really rough.

[Blood of Gaea]

Just a note, if the Berserker bonus action attack gave two attacks, there would be a much stronger argument for it.

[Aett_Thorn]

In a game without feats, Berserker gains a lot of extra offensive punch over other types of Barbarian. In games with feats, they are left severely lacking.


Also, I'd just like to point out that we all seem to agree that Storm Herald Barbarians are nowhere near this discussion.

[Caelic]

I understand what you're saying. But. There is opportunity cost though, imo:
- GWM bonus action less reliable, depends on luck. Frenzy is there when you need it (boss fights)



Sure. GWM needs a reliable source of advantage...which barbarians have. There's a reason it's such a popular choice for a barbarian. The potential bonus attack is just gravy.



- GWM and Polearm Master = 2 feats, is -2 on attack an damage compared to a bbn that just raises strength (though at some point, the Berserker probablly wants GWM as well in a game with feats).


Exactly--the feat's good enough for a barbarian that even a Berserker will likely take it, meaning no cost of opportunity. You're probably going to take it either way.


- the bonus action from Polearm Master = 1d4, compared to (probably) 1d12, that's another 4 damage less on average

...but it's every round, in every fight, all day, with no exhaustion. Those penalties add up.




- immunities at lvl 6 are still better than anything for example Totem has to offer



I don't know how you quantify that. I'd honestly say that the Bear totem's level 3 ability is more consistently valuable than the Berserker's level 6 ability.



All of this disregarding the fact that feats are an optional rule (and yes, I've played several games in this way - it does happen). In a featless game, I'd say Berserker might be the most powerful subclass. In a game with feats, it's still good.
[/quote]

Sure, but they're an exceptionally common optional rule, to the point where I'd say NON-variant games are less common than variant games at this point. In a game without feats, it's still not too difficult to get bonus attacks in other ways--for instance, a level of monk. They're not optimal, perhaps, but they're out there. The point I was trying to make was that it's easier to come up with an alternative for the Berserker's signature ability than it is to come up with an alternative for, say, the Totem Barbarian's signature ability.

[MeeposFire]

Just a note, if the Berserker bonus action attack gave two attacks, there would be a much stronger argument for it.

It would certainly be nastier but honestly it would still have problems. The current benefit is good (especially since it does not require an attack action to use which is rare) it is the penalty that is the problem. Even with two attacks the penalty would still suck and really hurt the fun. The berserker really does not need to be made more powerful it just needs to not punish you in so many ways for so long.

[Ganymede]

You could choose your barbarian primal path randomly with a die roll and still have an effective character that will contribute to the collective challenges your party faces. There is literally no danger that your inexperience will cause you to accidentally choose a primal path that makes you a liability.

I'd suggest you get a handle on the type of person your barbarian is and allow that to guide your choice of primal path. Where does your barbarian's rage come from?

[bid]

Sure. GWM needs a reliable source of advantage...which barbarians have. There's a reason it's such a popular choice for a barbarian. The potential bonus attack is just gravy.
I don't think that's his point. You need a crit to get your BA attack.

Getting a BA attack 100% of the turn you frenzy is more reliable than getting it 20% of the time through GWM.


That's not enough to make me like berserker, the other points you raise have more impact.

[Kane0]

Bear Totem is the classic choice and a great all-rounder, but Ancestral is fantastic for sticky tanking and Zealot makes you nigh impossible to kill.

[Blood of Gaea]

I don't think that's his point. You need a crit to get your BA attack.

Getting a BA attack 100% of the turn you frenzy is more reliable than getting it 20% of the time through GWM.


That's not enough to make me like berserker, the other points you raise have more impact.
A critical hit or killing an enemy, if there are some mooks in the battle, that will be pretty common.

[bid]

A critical hit or killing an enemy, if there are some mooks in the battle, that will be pretty common.
True, if you can 1-shot (or 2-shot) any worthy target you're almost guaranteed your BA attack.

Still, that's the point Waazraath was making.

[Citan]

I've been wanting to play a Barbarian class, but I am unsure of what my build should be. What Primal Path is most optimal for say, a Half-Elf Barbarian?
If I had to make a "blind" choice, I'd definitely pick Totem Barbarian with Bear at 3rd level.
Simply because "that just works" whatever party I'm in, whatever campaign we are in: it makes you just plain better at what your party expects you to do (soak damage), and brainless to use.

Besides that case, which I try to avoid as much as possible because I find kinda annoying to not know anything about party, every archetype really comes above others depending on your party composition and the focus you want to put between soaking damage, helping close-by allies or dealing damage.
Confer all the posts above for details. ;)

[Chugger]

Since you seem to be optimizing...

Does your group's cleric have an "older brother" who can give him or her early on Prayer Beads that have at least one of the Greater Resto beads? Two or more = better. If so, you can frenzy more - that spell removes one level of exhaustion.

Are you playing AL? You can frenzy effectively in AL _if_ you understand how the modules work and when to do it - like "this is the boss fight time to frenzy no matter what (unless that alone would kill you)".

Do you have a friend who wants to cheese heavily on a crit build - i.e. a half elf Elven accuracy paladin/champ build that badly needs - well - advantage? If so you could go Wolf and be fighting buddies with this person. You try to fight together and give him the adv he badly needs.

Bear is hard to turn down - resisting all damage except one type (which is on the rare side, just don't fight mind flayers w/out a pot of invuln) is boss. Amazing.

I'm not sure about the new xanathar barbs. Others can tell you more about them - I don't like them much. I mean sure - cool - more damage - a sent-like feature - yeah ... but resists all damage except one type is crazy good. And if you can rely on that melee friend to stick with the game and not flake out - a meleeing combo built around a wolf barb is strong. And if you can get greater resto early on, frenzy is strong (but is it as good as resisting almost all damage types - a shield master bear barb is hard to kill - and can output steady respectable damage - not power-creep high damage - but steady, yes, esp if you get him a flametongue or something that adds good damage to each hit.

It's a hard choice for me to make. But bear really appeals to me.

[Waazraath]

While in combat it's very strong, out of combat you get nothing, even worse, if you use your frenzy more then once per day, the penalties will become hefty. So much in fact that you get penalties for non-frenzy attacks, your skills will be worth zilch and out of combat you will have all the use of a wet towel.

Zealot gets nothing out of combat. Ancestral Guardian only at level 10, a few ritual divinitions. At that level, Berserker gets intimidating presence that can be used out of combat. The penalty on skills can be hefty, yes, but it's not like every ability check takes place after that intensive fight where frenzy was needed.



So in combat, yes the berserker is great if you get one combat per day where you can shine like a crazy diamond. If you go beyond that, you are going to be **** outta luck and better hope your mates will carry you.

This is just rhetorics.
1) a Berserker doesn't need to frenzy every encounter; in some cases, just rage is enough. In other cases, rage isn't even needed. Hell, the class holds its own without rage. It should, cause it takes until level 17 to get enough rages for the minimum of encounters for the average adventuring day (6-8). And, before somebody mentions that thus this subclass will be useless in several encounters: yes, it will. Just like the bear totem level 3 ability is useless in encounters where only piercing, slashing and bludgeoning damage is dealt. It happens, sometimes. What frenzy has going for it, is that if used, it's very strong. It should be seen in the same light as a very high level spell. Encounter defining, but not always available.
2) even if there are several hard encounters, in which Frenzy is needed, that doesn't have to be a problem. Yes, the drawback of exhaustion is exagerated. A barbarian that hits like a ton of bricks, but has disadvantage on skill checks, isn't a burden for a party. Also see below.

If a Berserker needs to be 'carried' by his mates, that's not because Berserker is a bad subclass, but because there is a bad player who doesn't know how to manage resources. Yes, it will suck if you frenzy two times in the first two encounters of the day. No, in that case, the Berserker is not the class to play. Just like a paladin will suck with a bad player that blows all his spell slots on smites in the first combat, or the caster that blows his highest level spells on the first encounter with just a few mooks. Player problem, not (sub)class problem.


And before you start, yes the exhaustion mechanics beyond the first are really rough.

No, it isn't. In a dungeon, well timed, you can always use it once without a problem. Most of the skill challenges (trap finding, disarming, investigating, social encounters) won't be done by the barbarian anyways, who cares about disadvantage. Disadvantage at initiative checks can suck, but after level 7 that's compensated for. If really needed, at the end of adventuring day a second frenzy isn't a problem either; half speed sucks, but that kicks in only after the fight. So yes, at the beginning of an adventuring day it's terrible. But that's the resource management part...



Sure. GWM needs a reliable source of advantage...which barbarians have. There's a reason it's such a popular choice for a barbarian. The potential bonus attack is just gravy.
I was talking about the bonus action attack, not the -5/+10, als bid already mentioned. And yes, with that damage, you will trigger the bonus action more often, but still it's less reliable: you can't depend you'll get it.



Exactly--the feat's good enough for a barbarian that even a Berserker will likely take it, meaning no cost of opportunity. You're probably going to take it either way.


Yes, but probably only at 12 (unless variant human). What is often disregarded in discussions like these is that barbarians don't reckless attack all the time. A large part of their worth in combat isn't just 'hitting hard', but also 'soaking up a ton of damage'. And reckless attack is contrary to that. In my experience, barbarians use it about half of the time.



...but it's every round, in every fight, all day, with no exhaustion. Those penalties add up.


Of course, yes, it's a trade off. Every day that 1d4 + stuff bonus action, or occasionally (hopefully: when you really need it) 1d12 + stuff bonus action. As for the penalties: true, but they shouldn't be exagerated. See in my reply above.



I don't know how you quantify that. I'd honestly say that the Bear totem's level 3 ability is more consistently valuable than the Berserker's level 6 ability.


You can't quantify this, of course, not while making sense. But what I meant was compared to the other 6th level totem abilities. Those are ribbons, except for the 2 skills (that's why I rate tiger so high in my post above).



Sure, but they're an exceptionally common optional rule, to the point where I'd say NON-variant games are less common than variant games at this point. In a game without feats, it's still not too difficult to get bonus attacks in other ways--for instance, a level of monk. They're not optimal, perhaps, but they're out there. The point I was trying to make was that it's easier to come up with an alternative for the Berserker's signature ability than it is to come up with an alternative for, say, the Totem Barbarian's signature ability.

I agree up to a point... yes, games with feats are common; I don't now any numbers on which type of game is more common. In a game without feats, yes there also are ways to get bonus action attacks, but the opportunity cost is imo much higher than 1 ASI. Especially when taking into account that multi-classing is a variant rule as well... But lets not forget: Berserker doesn't just add a 1d12 bonus action attack (only in 1 or 2 fights/day, realisticly), but from level 14 onward a reliable 1d12 reaction attack. You won't get that in a featless game, not without a huge investment like Battle Master Fighter 3 (for riposte); and again, that's using another optional rule.

[Contrast]

Are you playing AL? You can frenzy effectively in AL _if_ you understand how the modules work and when to do it - like "this is the boss fight time to frenzy no matter what (unless that alone would kill you)".

Not OP but I have a similar quandary. Just started playing AL and have a level 2 gnomish barbarian. Size constraints mean the normal great weapon approach is out of the window. Totem and ancestors would be my normal choice but I worried my damage may be a little anemic given the lack of great weapons and sitting at strength 14, which zealot or berserk would help with. I just worry that what with it being AL, if I decide frenzy is too crippling then I can't talk to the DM and change things :smallfrown: