Doing some Homebrewing; Constitution as a Casting stat?

[Mongobear]

As the title says, I am fiddling around with a homebrew class and archetypes, and I came to a weird idea--Using Constitution as the classes spell-casting stat for saves, attack rolls, etc. Would this be too strong?

The class so far is following the Warlock model, with a variant of Pact Magic and Invocations that fulfill a similar role, but mostly give abilities that directly effect combat, very little utility things like the Warlock Invocation. I would make them Charisma based, but it just feels wrong to make another Charisma casting class. Intelligence is my other idea for them, but it doesnt exactly fit 2/3 of the planned archetypes.

The closest class comparison I can think of for it are the Tome of Battle classes from 3.5e, but much more magically empowered. They will likely have much of the same effects as those maneuvers, but updated to 5e mechanics.

[Syradin]

Genasi and Tritons already use Con for their racial casting ability. So it might not be too overpowered.
But this will make the character Very SAD, as the will only have to focus on Con, with Dex coming second for armor class. Also consider their ability for making concentration saves.

[DeTess]

As the title says, I am fiddling around with a homebrew class and archetypes, and I came to a weird idea--Using Constitution as the classes spell-casting stat for saves, attack rolls, etc. Would this be too strong?

The class so far is following the Warlock model, with a variant of Pact Magic and Invocations that fulfill a similar role, but mostly give abilities that directly effect combat, very little utility things like the Warlock Invocation. I would make them Charisma based, but it just feels wrong to make another Charisma casting class. Intelligence is my other idea for them, but it doesnt exactly fit 2/3 of the planned archetypes.

The closest class comparison I can think of for it are the Tome of Battle classes from 3.5e, but much more magically empowered. They will likely have much of the same effects as those maneuvers, but updated to 5e mechanics.

If you're making a 3.5 comparison, Magic of Incarnum was a magic system that had Con as a casting stat.

I don't think this is too strong, as long as you ensure that there is at least one other stat the class has to heavily invest in. If they're melee-combat focused then it'll probably figure itself out. By not giving the class proficiency in Wis and Dex saves you could encourage decent scores for these two, so there's no risk of being too SAD.

[Mongobear]

If you're making a 3.5 comparison, Magic from Incarnum was a magic system that had Con as a casting stat.

I don't think this si too strong, as long as you ensure that there is at least one other stat the class has to heavily invest in. If they're melee-combat focused then it'll probably figure itself out. By no giving the class proficiency in Wis and Dex saves you encourage decent scores for these two, so there's no risk of being too SAD.

As of right now, Con is their casting stat/HP stat as usual.

They're meant to be a 'Gish in a Can' so they are intended to be on the front lines using their spells, so they will need a good score in Str or Dex. I also don't plan to include a shennanigan ability like Hex Warrior, they will always need a high-ish stat in Str/Dex.

Save proficiency atm is Wis/Cha, as theyve been conditioned in the fluff to be extremely resilient to mind effecting spells, and they have an ability similar to Danger Sense for Int Saves. (Advantage on Int saves vs Illusions).

Their spell list is going to be an expansion of the Booming Blade/Green-flame Blade Cantrips. Almost every spell they will have is going to be a 'blade' cast. Meaning that they will be making a weapon attack to deliver their spell effects. And instead of Short Rest recharging like the Warlock, they regain spell slots whenever they roll Initiative for an Encounter, but they top out at 3 Spell slots at 17th level.

[Tanarii]

As the title says, I am fiddling around with a homebrew class and archetypes, and I came to a weird idea--Using Constitution as the classes spell-casting stat for saves, attack rolls, etc. Would this be too strong?Probably. I played a 4e warlock, and saw lots of them played. The Con primary infernal-lock was very powerful as a result of its primary casting stat. Especially once you added the at-will melee attack based off your primary, I think it was called eldritch strike. I was glad to see that they didn't go that route for 5e infernal-locks, nor give a "casting stat" melee attack to blade-locks.

(Then of course they broke that with the 5e Hexblade. Because the history of making stupid decisions repeats itself.)

[Mongobear]

What about having a modular spellcasting stat based on which archetype you go with?

So far, each of the subclasses have a very different theme, and I can easily see them having their casting stat be different based on that choice. The only downside I see with this is that is sort of forces you to build a certain way, similarly to Barbarian--you certainly can build a Finesse Barbarian, but Strength is usually easier/better.

[Wryte]

Genasi and Tritons already use Con for their racial casting ability. So it might not be too overpowered.
But this will make the character Very SAD, as the will only have to focus on Con, with Dex coming second for armor class. Also consider their ability for making concentration saves.

Tritons use Cha, actually. And Earth an Water genasi's racial spells don't involve attack rolls or save DCs, so their casting ability is irrelevant. Only Fire and Air's do, and Air's is friggin' Levitate.

Racial spellcasting isn't a very good indicator of OPness, given that racial casting is balanced on the fact that those spells can only be cast once a day and at their lowest level. It doesn't really matter if Con is OP as a casting stat if all you're trying to beat is the save DC on the only 1st level Burning Hands your opponent can cast today... and you're 12th level. A class's casting stat is much, much more important than a race's.

The two main things to keep in mind with a Con-based caster are that they're going to be much more durable than the average caster, and they're going to have much better concentration saves. This could be fair if they're meant to be strictly frontline fighters, but I'd be much more wary of it if they can be consistently effective from the backline, too. Their spell list is going to be very important to whether they're balanced.

The other question I'd have to ask is how the fluff for a Con caster works in your mind. Int casters draw on their incredible knowledge to cast spells. Wis casters learn their spells through experience and contemplation. Cha casters are exerting their sheer willpower on reality. How does being really, really, super healthy translate into casting spells?

[Luppers]

The other question I'd have to ask is how the fluff for a Con caster works in your mind. Int casters draw on their incredible knowledge to cast spells. Wis casters learn their spells through experience and contemplation. Cha casters are exerting their sheer willpower on reality. How does being really, really, super healthy translate into casting spells?

https://1d4chan.org/images/thumb/e/e4/Muscle_wizard.jpg/300px-Muscle_wizard.jpg

[Wryte]

Excuse me, but that is clearly Strength casting. :P

[Mongobear]

https://1d4chan.org/images/thumb/e/e4/Muscle_wizard.jpg/300px-Muscle_wizard.jpg

I mean, this is kind of accurate to a point, minus the inherent comedic nature of it.

The fluff is that during their "Level 0 Training" period before becoming an adventurer, the class practiced a combat style attempting to perfectly meld Martial Training and Spellcasting. Basically the War Caster feat turned into a full blown class.

I originally was thinking of using Str or Dex as their casting stats, but it made them extremely SAD.

As far as balance of having a naturally high Con and Concentration being a nearly non-issue, I don't plan on them having many Concentration based spells, maybe 1-2 at each spell level tops, most of their list is going to be leveled up variations on BB/GFB or Smite spells like the Paladin, cast, swing, boom. I can see a handful of spells possibly like Armor of Agathys, Elemental Weapon, and/or Haste being included, but the majority will be 'Blade' Spells.

[MrStabby]

So the way to look at it is by asking what else they get from their casting stat besides "attack modifier" and "DC".

For int:
knowledge Skills
Int save

For Dex:
Dex skills
Dex saves
Initiative
Armour class

For Strength:
Str skills - notably athletics
Ability to use heavy armour without penalty
Str saves

For Wisdom:
Wisdom skills including perception
Wis saves

Charisma:
Social skills
Cha saves

For Constitution:
Con saves
Concentration saves
Hit points
Maybe some endurance activity


To me constitution's ancillary benefits look a lot better. The con saves are great generally but especially for a caster (as in question) who needs to concentrate. HP are good for everyone, but especially a caster who gets a higher proportion of HP from con than from their lower hit die. And concentration saves - arguably the most important save in the game. I think the only choice that might be less balanced would be a dexterity caster.

[Angelalex242]

Ya know what I'd do with a con caster class?

Make them 'cast from hit points' instead of from spell slots.

They'd have so many spells known, and each spell cast costs them HP. 1 HP per spell level? 2HP per spell level?

I'd have them be able to use metamagic too...at the cost of rolling death saves.

I might even add a feature called 'death casting': Cast any spell in the game you want. You die. You can only be resurrected by a spell of equal or greater level to the one you cast.

[Citan]

As the title says, I am fiddling around with a homebrew class and archetypes, and I came to a weird idea--Using Constitution as the classes spell-casting stat for saves, attack rolls, etc. Would this be too strong?

The class so far is following the Warlock model, with a variant of Pact Magic and Invocations that fulfill a similar role, but mostly give abilities that directly effect combat, very little utility things like the Warlock Invocation. I would make them Charisma based, but it just feels wrong to make another Charisma casting class. Intelligence is my other idea for them, but it doesnt exactly fit 2/3 of the planned archetypes.

The closest class comparison I can think of for it are the Tome of Battle classes from 3.5e, but much more magically empowered. They will likely have much of the same effects as those maneuvers, but updated to 5e mechanics.
I've been submitted to the same conundrum with my own homebrew. Fluff-wise, they used both internal energy (constitution) and external energy (wisdom).
I didn't want to use WIS because that would have made it too close to Monk, yet Constitution seemed too much too, because all my archetypes had not only buffs but also plain offensive spells.
So I tried something not yet made, being a mix WIS and CON, but while it works it feels kinda clunky.

Bottom line: CON as a casting stat probably works fine as long as you pull some big restraining strings in any of the following aspects.
1st, heavy artillery: make it like Warlock, a class whose spellcasting fuel cannot be mixed with other classes. That way you at least plain avoid most multiclassing problems. You'll still have to balance is as a single-class though.

2nd, medium artillery: make a third-caster at most, that way it will really feel like his big useful nova.

3rd, most flexible string: spell selection: either make it mainly buffs/heals, or delay access to offensive spells.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The main issue is that they'll be a lot hardier* than expected, yes? How 'bout keeping them at a d6 HD? That'll add some squish back in.

*Or at least somewhat hardier. It's not that hard to start with 16 Con/16 casting if you want, and another ~1-2 hit points per level as you put ASI's into it isn't going to be a huge difference.

[A Fat Dragon]

The other question I'd have to ask is how the fluff for a Con caster works in your mind. Int casters draw on their incredible knowledge to cast spells. Wis casters learn their spells through experience and contemplation. Cha casters are exerting their sheer willpower on reality. How does being really, really, super healthy translate into casting spells?

I’ve actually thought about how Dex/Str/Con casting might work. If it comes to Constitution casting, I think it’s a matter of sheer Endurance. You have the ability to bend reality itself without even needing to think, but your power is limited by how strong your mortal body can put up with it. It’s like the idea of having a god inside of yourself: you don’t need to think about what your casting, you just need to be able to channel it through yourself. The only way to channel more of it through yourself, is to risk damaging you physical form. Your Spellcasting increases as you condition your body and endurance to put up with the stress more of casting spells at a stronger degree.

Perhaps it might be cool to add an Unstable Casting feature: sort of add a bonus to your Spell Save DC or Spell Attack role equal to your Proficiency bonus, in exchange for having to succeed on a Constitution Save or take damage equal to your 2 x Proficiency x the Spell’s Level (This cannot be used on Cantrips however).

[MrStabby]

To be honest, you could get round some of the issues with spell selection. As concentration is one of the reasons why Con is great on casters you could limit spells on their spell list to non-concentration spells and it would tend to even out somewhat.

[Citan]

The main issue is that they'll be a lot hardier* than expected, yes? How 'bout keeping them at a d6 HD? That'll add some squish back in.

*Or at least somewhat hardier. It's not that hard to start with 16 Con/16 casting if you want, and another ~1-2 hit points per level as you put ASI's into it isn't going to be a huge difference.
@OP I think you got a very promising lead here.
You could actually fluff it as a consequence of using their own energy to fuel their abilities, whatever reason (pact with devil, or just straining their own body too much) that explains their intrisincal frailty. :)

And it would indeed balance things for a melee-oriented class that has built-in Constitution as main stat.

[Kane0]

Like an Eragon setup? You can do magic, but it takes the same amount of effort as it would take you to do it manually and so uses a physical stat like your Con.

Then getting better at magic would really just be learning how to me more efficient rather than a raw increase in power.

[Personification]

What about disease magic? It would have spells and abilities based on poison and diseases, and it would also be natural to have a high constitution because it has developed immunity to many of them (making it good at con-saves). There are probably enough poison/disease themed spells to make this work. Additionally, though they are immune to a lot of stuff, they have also poisoned and infected themselves intentionally so much to do it that they have d6 hit dice, and tend to always look a bit unhealthy, no matter what their HP is at the time. augment this with a few cast from hit points abilities which don't cost too much, but cost enough to make it feel like there is a cost, and it works.