Paladin/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple Builds

[LordObs]

Hello! So I've heard a lot about this specific gish, but I haven't seen many full builds posted on it. I'm tempted to make a character based on this combo, but I need help. Core races only, preferably a half-elf or full elf. Send me your builds! :smallsmile:

[Baroncognito]

What are your goals for the character? Is it just "Sorcerer with a two to three level dip for save bonuses and disease immunity"? Or is the object to be a paladin that flies into combat and chews people's faces off?

[Kurald Galain]

Hello! So I've heard a lot about this specific gish, but I haven't seen many full builds posted on it. I'm tempted to make a character based on this combo, but I need help. Core races only, preferably a half-elf or full elf. Send me your builds! :smallsmile:

You didn't specify level. That's pretty important.

But since this has the Pathfinder tag, for gish builds you should probably look into Warpriest/20, Bloodrager/20, and/or Magus/20. Sorcadin is primarily a high-level build for 3.5 games.

[grarrrg]

For lack of details (level, books allowed, acceptable cheese, level of commitment to Dragon Disciple, etc...) then I'll keep things simple.

If melee: Paladin 8/Sorc 2/DD 10 (not in that order) gets you 16 Bab, 4th level spells and 12th level 'Dragon Bloodline' bonuses.

If casting: Paladin 2/Sorc 10/DD 8 (not in that order) gets you 13 Bab, 8th level spells and 18th level 'Dragon Bloodline' bonuses. There are a few options to regain lost caster levels, so it's still possible to hit 9th level spells with this set-up.


But as stated, Sorcadin+Dragon isn't really the best option in Pathfinder, plenty functional, but does too many things "second best".
If you just want "Dragon face smashy", then a straight class Draconic Bloodrager (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/bloodrager/) will handle that fix quite well on its own.

[Gnaeus]

You didn't specify level. That's pretty important.

But since this has the Pathfinder tag, for gish builds you should probably look into Warpriest/20, Bloodrager/20, and/or Magus/20. Sorcadin is primarily a high-level build for 3.5 games.

I disagree with this. Paladin was massively improved in PF. Sorcerer was massively improved in PF, and DD was significantly improved in PF. The combination of 3 better classes, unsurprisingly, is better.

Just in core, pal2/sor3/dd10/sor5 is a 15 level caster with 7th level spells. Pal2/sor3/dd8 is 16 with 8ths. 8 casting levels off sor/wiz>> 6s off magus or cleric. And then there is that feat I can’t remember that let’s you recover caster levels from dead level PRCs.

[Kurald Galain]

Just in core, pal2/sor3/dd10/sor5 is a 15 level caster with 7th level spells. Pal2/sor3/dd8 is 16 with 8ths. 8 casting levels off sor/wiz>> 6s off magus or cleric. And then there is that feat I can’t remember that let’s you recover caster levels from dead level PRCs.

And that's why I said that level is pretty important (although you say you disagree, so I guess you think that level is not important?)

Your build is a good example... at level twenty. Now the OP didn't specify level, but he most likely isn't going to start anywhere near twenty, and he probably isn't ever going to reach twenty (because most campaigns don't). If he's starting at or near level 1? Then yeah, Magus or Warpriest or Bloodrager are going to be hands-down better and stay there for awhile.

Practical op is more important than theory op. If the OP is going to play around level 5 then a suggestion for level 20 just isn't helpful.

[Gnaeus]

And I would rather play a sorcadin from level 2 or 3 to 20, so yes, level is important. You can’t sorcadin at level 1. I disagree that it is a high level build. A sorcadin DD compares favorably with a paladin at every single level, and PF paladins are quite solid. I haven’t looked level by level versus the magus, but every level I’ve checked they seem comparable (see below). The only thing they can’t do is gish at level 1.

Functionally, though, aside from being gishes, they don’t really have a lot in common with the magus. The magus is primarily a burst damage fighter, using spellcombat and touch attacks to put people on the ground quickly. The Sorcadin is a tank with utility. Massively better saves, Swift action heals, blindsense + blindfighting, and access to the complete sor/wiz list as well as item access to a sizable subset of divine tricks, while still being a quite competent melee combatant. In general, that might be an advantage to magus, as damage usually beats defense. But the magus kinda sucks at most arcane roles that don’t involve blowing things up or fighting better, while a sorcadin can do anything your wizard can do a few levels later, plus some divine tricks via items. I don’t have to be 20 to dominate, or leverage summon monster for dozens of spells, or use lesser planar binding.

[Azoth]

I still enjoy Paladin2/Scaled Fist Unchained Monk1/Sorc2/Dragon Disciple9/Eldritch Knight6. If using the Mage Guild Rules from Inner Sea Magic and the feats Favored Prestige Class + Prestigious Spellcaster, you can finish with the casting of a 19th level Sorcerer. You can also trade away the first level bloodline power for a familiar.

If you feel cheesy, you can buy an Onyx Spear, die, automatically be resurrected as a JuJu Zombie and have an atonement cast to regain Paladin abilities while using Cha for HP now.

Extra fun is to worship Desna, so you can use her Divine Fighting Technique and get Cha To Hit + Damage with Starknives. Not a great weapon overall, but it is still your primary attribute to attack and damage rolls.

Noble Scion (War) is the last piece to being fully Charged SAD.

Cha to AC (Monk), Cha to saves (Paladin), Cha to HP (being a JuJu Zombie), Cha to attack and damage (Desna Divine Fighting Technique), Cha to Initiative (Noble Scion).

[Gnaeus]

I still enjoy Paladin2/Scaled Fist Unchained Monk1/Sorc2/Dragon Disciple9/Eldritch Knight6. If using the Mage Guild Rules from Inner Sea Magic and the feats Favored Prestige Class + Prestigious Spellcaster, you can finish with the casting of a 19th level Sorcerer. You can also trade away the first level bloodline power for a familiar.

If you feel cheesy, you can buy an Onyx Spear, die, automatically be resurrected as a JuJu Zombie and have an atonement cast to regain Paladin abilities while using Cha for HP now.

Extra fun is to worship Desna, so you can use her Divine Fighting Technique and get Cha To Hit + Damage with Starknives. Not a great weapon overall, but it is still your primary attribute to attack and damage rolls.

Noble Scion (War) is the last piece to being fully Charged SAD.

Cha to AC (Monk), Cha to saves (Paladin), Cha to HP (being a JuJu Zombie), Cha to attack and damage (Desna Divine Fighting Technique), Cha to Initiative (Noble Scion).

I fully agree with all that with the possible exception of noble scion war. Your cha needs to be more than 8 points higher than your dex for that to be better than improved initiative, which you can get as a bonus feat, and since you will be unarmored most of your career you benefit from a decent dex. And playing naturally it isn’t likely the feat you will want at first level.

[Azoth]

I fully agree with all that with the possible exception of noble scion war. Your cha needs to be more than 8 points higher than your dex for that to be better than improved initiative, which you can get as a bonus feat, and since you will be unarmored most of your career you benefit from a decent dex. And playing naturally it isn’t likely the feat you will want at first level.

It isn't the best feat at first level, but the point of the build stub I threw up was to rely almost solely on Charisma for everything. As that build progresses it stops caring about what any stat is but Charisma primarily. Yes a good Dexterity would be/is nice, but it isn't as important to that build as pumping Charisma is.

[Gnaeus]

It isn't the best feat at first level, but the point of the build stub I threw up was to rely almost solely on Charisma for everything. As that build progresses it stops caring about what any stat is but Charisma primarily. Yes a good Dexterity would be/is nice, but it isn't as important to that build as pumping Charisma is.

I understand the elegance of cha to everything, but I think most of the time you will just find it easier to take improved initiative when you get a bonus feat. By the time Scion of War is significantly better you will likely be wanting the general feat more than a couple points of initiative.

[Kurald Galain]

Functionally, though, aside from being gishes, they don’t really have a lot in common with the magus. The magus is primarily a burst damage fighter, using spellcombat and touch attacks to put people on the ground quickly.

That is the most common Magus build, but hardly the only one.

The point is, the Magus (and warpriest and bloodrager) have a huge action economy advantage over the 3.5 gishes, starting from very low level. The main advantage of the 3.5 gishes is that they get 7th level spells, but they only get that at very high level. People tend to underestimate the power of attacking and casting during the same turn.

Sorcadin does have better saving throws, no argument there. The sorc/wiz spell list is better than the Magus's, but not by much (at least, until you get 7th level spells) and the Magus can learn sorc/wiz spells as well via Spell Blending.

[Peat]

Worshipping CG Desna as a LG Paladin is gonna be a bit hard, and iirc the alignment free Paladin isn't all that.

Not to mention not a lot of point going Dragon Disciple if you're going CHA to hit and damage with. But I suspect that's by the by.

In any case, I think Grarrrg covered it. There's not a whole lot of reason to pick between those two extremes.

[Gnaeus]

That is the most common Magus build, but hardly the only one.

The point is, the Magus (and warpriest and bloodrager) have a huge action economy advantage over the 3.5 gishes, starting from very low level. The main advantage of the 3.5 gishes is that they get 7th level spells, but they only get that at very high level. People tend to underestimate the power of attacking and casting during the same turn.

While true, there are lots of ways around that. I would not expect a Sorcadin to be as good at flinging lightning bolts around in combat as the magus. On the other hand, Sorcadins have lots of ways to counter.

At low level, that can be as easy as having a suit of plate mail in your backpack which you put on after casting your long duration buffs so that you become a self buffing fighter type with plate + shield + innate natural armor + blur + false life + a bite attack + swift action heals + cha to deflection and attack from smite evil. And better saves. Spells cast before battle are better on action economy than ones cast in battle. And that’s core stuff. It’s not as casterish a way to win fights, but it’s not ineffective either. Azoth’s build is clearly a little higher op.

At higher levels that can be as broken as using planar binding and summons to get as many actions per round as you have spells you want to spend on the battle. Swift casting is nice but minionmancy is broken good. And sorcadins are way better at it than magi.

Which isn’t to say magi aren’t good. They are. Warpriests are fine. But I wouldn’t give either one a clear advantage over Sorcadins at any point in the level range (there may be individual levels where one or the other edges out, depending on optimization levels on both sides)

[Kurald Galain]

At low level, that can be as easy as having a suit of plate mail in your backpack which you put on after casting your long duration buffs so that you become a self buffing fighter type with plate + shield + innate natural armor + blur + false life + a bite attack + swift action heals + cha to deflection and attack from smite evil.
Pre-buffing then playing as a straight fighter certainly sounds effective, it's just not a playstyle that I like. I do believe you only get one Smite Evil per day, though.


Spells cast before battle are better on action economy than ones cast in battle.
That's true for most classes, but not for the magus, warpriest, and bloodrager (who essentially get free extra actions to cast spells with).


At higher levels that can be as broken as using planar binding and summons to get as many actions per round as you have spells you want to spend on the battle. Swift casting is nice but minionmancy is broken good. And sorcadins are way better at it than magi.
Why would they be, though? The magus and warpriest get new spell levels at levels 4/7/10/13/16, whereas the sorcadin appears to get them at 6/10/12/14/16. So a magus who spends a single feat on Spell Blending would get higher-level summon spells about two levels earlier; and both can get Planar Binding at level 16.

Unless I'm missing something, it appears that the magus is way better at minionmancy on levels 4 through 13, they're tied on 1-3 and 14-17, and the sorcadin is ahead on levels 18-20.

[grarrrg]

Pre-buffing then playing as a straight fighter certainly sounds effective, it's just not a playstyle that I like. I do believe you only get one Smite Evil per day, though.

If you're "playing as straight fighter" then you may as well do 4+ levels of Paladin and go Oath of Vengeance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/Paladin/archetypes/paizo-paladin-archetypes/oathbound-paladin/oath-of-vengeance). Clears up that pesky lack of Smite problem.



Since it hasn't been mentioned yet...if you aren't fully attached to the 'dragon' theme, what about Hellknight Signifier (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/hellknight-signifer/)? Full casting in Full Plate with 0% failure is always fun for a gish.

[Gnaeus]

Pre-buffing then playing as a straight fighter certainly sounds effective, it's just not a playstyle that I like. I do believe you only get one Smite Evil per day, though.


That's true for most classes, but not for the magus, warpriest, and bloodrager (who essentially get free extra actions to cast spells with).


Why would they be, though? The magus and warpriest get new spell levels at levels 4/7/10/13/16, whereas the sorcadin appears to get them at 6/10/12/14/16. So a magus who spends a single feat on Spell Blending would get higher-level summon spells about two levels earlier; and both can get Planar Binding at level 16.

Unless I'm missing something, it appears that the magus is way better at minionmancy on levels 4 through 13, they're tied on 1-3 and 14-17, and the sorcadin is ahead on levels 18-20.

If I were playing it, and certainly there’s multiple ways to go, I’d likely split the difference. Burn your active spells in the first few fights, then armor up and be a fighter once you are down to a few slots. (Blur, incedently, gets no ASF as a V spell).

Yes, once per day, but that’s probably the boss fight so I’m not too worried. Especially if played as I suggested above, because you are acting like a wizard for a couple fights then a fighter. So 1-2 fights as a novaing caster, 2-3 as a fighter, smite in the boss round? Sounds like fun to me. And of course, gear will play a big role. If we getting lots of wands, we can be more casterish. If weapons, more fighterish. What’s the party composition?

I may also be missing something. When I look at Spell Blending, you get 1 spell every time you take it. You could spend every magus arcana from 3-15 and still need 2 feats to have all the summons and planar binding

Core, you would be correct. Lucky for me, Azoth reminded me of the name of the magic feat for PRCs. With Favored Prestige Class and prestigious spellcaster, you get those at 6/8/10/12 etc. and an 8th level (effective) Sorcerer gets more slots than a 10th level magus who has burned all his arcane pool recovering spells. With splatbooks I can clearly be ahead by 10. If you need all your arcana to learn spells I can get for free and spend all your pool catching up to me on spells, I’m really not seeing your clear advantage.

Oh, and after you have used all your feats trying to match a caster in a summons fight, you will have given away your biggest advantage. You can’t spellcombat with a summons or PB. It takes us the exact same time to cast it.

[Kurald Galain]

I may also be missing something. When I look at Spell Blending, you get 1 spell every time you take it.
Well you can hardly complain about the Magus spending feats on this when you're sinking several feats into Prestigious Spellcaster :smallamused:

Anyway, you'd use retraining to have the highest two summon spells you can cast. Then you open combat with one summon and start gishing; because if your strategy is to summon every round (which is pretty good, mind you) then there's no point in building a gish any more. The wizard, druid, and summoner can all get critters as a standard action, making them hands down better at minionmancy than a magus or a sorcadin.

I mean, all you're proving here is that a tier-1 caster is stronger than a gish. Which is clearly true, but a tier-1 caster doesn't need levels in paladin or dragon disc. Why build a character for melee if you're not going to melee?


Core, you would be correct. Lucky for me, Azoth reminded me of the name of the magic feat for PRCs. With Favored Prestige Class and prestigious spellcaster,
Not quite. If you take the feat a second time, it only increases your caster level, but not spells per day or spells known. So now you're ahead of the magus by level 15, which is still well above where most campaigns end. I'm still not seeing how that makes you much better at summoning: sorc gets more spells per day but magus gets higher level spells.

[Peat]

I mean, all you're proving here is that a tier-1 caster is stronger than a gish. Which is clearly true, but a tier-1 caster doesn't need levels in paladin or dragon disc. Why build a character for melee if you're not going to melee?

Because sometimes its fun to beat people in the face, then do the typical tier 1 caster shenanigans out of combat.


Not quite. If you take the feat a second time, it only increases your caster level, but not spells per day or spells known. So now you're ahead of the magus by level 15, which is still well above where most campaigns end. I'm still not seeing how that makes you much better at summoning: sorc gets more spells per day but magus gets higher level spells.

Per James Jacobs, it stacks fully every time - http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2u7dt?Prestigious-Spellcaster-Feat-Questions#1

[Psyren]

Wonky wording aside, Prestigious Spellcaster does (and is intended to) recover progression every time you take it, not just the first time. If you have a GM who feels differently, then frankly, get a better GM.

Concerning the Sorcadin vs. Magus debate - buffing prior to a fight and casting during it are both viable ways to gish, it comes down to playstyle. Speaking for myself I would just go straight sorcerer if DD was my goal; Divine Grace is powerful but not worth the delay in spells, bloodline and other features.

[Azoth]

Worshipping CG Desna as a LG Paladin is gonna be a bit hard, and iirc the alignment free Paladin isn't all that.

Not to mention not a lot of point going Dragon Disciple if you're going CHA to hit and damage with. But I suspect that's by the by.

In any case, I think Grarrrg covered it. There's not a whole lot of reason to pick between those two extremes.

No argument on the difficulty of RPing a LG follower of a CG deity, but the rules don't forbid it. Luckily Paladin's don't have to be within 1 step of their deity, unless you are playing PFS.

Dragon Disciple progresses your bloodline abilities, and most importantly is 3/4 BAB allowing the build to hit the +16BAB benchmark of a true Gish build. The rest of it is just gravy.

[Kurald Galain]

Dragon Disciple progresses your bloodline abilities, and most importantly is 3/4 BAB allowing the build to hit the +16BAB benchmark of a true Gish build. The rest of it is just gravy.
Well that's the crux of the issue. The draconic sorcerer bloodline abilities are pretty lacklustre (except for its L1 arcana), and especially so for a gish.

So the only reason you're using the draconic bloodline is because it works with DD, and the only reason why you're using DD is because it advances the draconic bloodline. That's circular reasoning. As you say, literally anything with 3/4th BAB would work. For instance, get a more gishy bloodline, take Eldritch Knight, and lose less caster levels. Or replace sorcerer by Eldritch Scion or Scaled Fist. A cha-to-everything build is pretty cool, and that build doesn't mesh with DD.



Because sometimes its fun to beat people in the face, then do the typical tier 1 caster shenanigans out of combat.
Yes Peat, that's precisely what I'm saying. If you build a character to beat people in the face (what this thread is about) then what you're NOT going to do is stand back in combat and do nothing but cast spells during combat (which is what Gnaeus is suggesting). A face-smashing build is also pretty cool, and that build also doesn't mesh with DD.


Which all comes back to what Grarrg said days ago, i.e.

But as stated, Sorcadin+Dragon isn't really the best option in Pathfinder, plenty functional, but does too many things "second best".
If you just want "Dragon face smashy", then a straight class Draconic Bloodrager will handle that fix quite well on its own.

[Azoth]

Well that's the crux of the issue. The draconic sorcerer bloodline abilities are pretty lacklustre (except for its L1 arcana), and especially so for a gish.

So the only reason you're using the draconic bloodline is because it works with DD, and the only reason why you're using DD is because it advances the draconic bloodline. That's circular reasoning. As you say, literally anything with 3/4th BAB would work. For instance, get a more gishy bloodline, take Eldritch Knight, and lose less caster levels. Or replace sorcerer by Eldritch Scion or Scaled Fist. A cha-to-everything build is pretty cool, and that build doesn't mesh with DD.



The build uses Eldritch Knight. You could use Hellknight Signifier in Dragon Disciple's place for the build and really not lose much, and even save a few feats. You would end up with some features you never use in the build, but it isn't like that is anything unusual.

Though it doesn't really appeal to me the same way that the original build outline I posted did. There is something a bit endearing to me about a LG Draconic Juju Zombie who fastidiously worships a CG goddess of travel.

I can picture that character whose force of personality drives and surpasses all around it. Becoming just as fearsome as it's Draconic blood demands.

A bloody battle raging all around him. The caravan he was hired to protect set a flame. All around him men and women are dying. His own time drawing to an end as a crossbow bolt punches into his armorless chest.

The world slowly fades to black as the hard ground rises to meet him, and the sounds of chaos falling from his ears. Those around him hear a sound like glass shattering as the Onyx of the spear shatters and the dust swirls around his body.

Slowly, undead eyes open as dead blood oozes from his wounds. A smirk rises to his lips revealing his draconic fangs, and his eyes focus into reptilian slits as he eyes the man responsible for his death.

"I guess my goddess has decided that my journey isn't over yet, and that death is only the beginning to this chapter..."

[Peat]

No argument on the difficulty of RPing a LG follower of a CG deity, but the rules don't forbid it. Luckily Paladin's don't have to be within 1 step of their deity, unless you are playing PFS.

Really? Huh. I thought all those faith dependent feats required you to be within 1 step of a deity. Fair enough if I'm wrong.


Dragon Disciple progresses your bloodline abilities, and most importantly is 3/4 BAB allowing the build to hit the +16BAB benchmark of a true Gish build. The rest of it is just gravy.

Evangelist also does that for any bloodline, while needing less feats to patch up your spellcasting and getting better freebies for someone going with CHA to hit and damage with using a manufactured weapon.



Yes Peat, that's precisely what I'm saying. If you build a character to beat people in the face (what this thread is about) then what you're NOT going to do is stand back in combat and do nothing but cast spells during combat (which is what Gnaeus is suggesting). A face-smashing build is also pretty cool, and that build also doesn't mesh with DD.


The 'And' there is pretty crucial. Bloodrager can't get in on the T1 caster stuff. Which does sometimes involve standing there throwing spells at people.

Obviously a DD Sorcadin is never going to be the best at smashing face or T1 caster stuff. But if someone wants to do both, then the stuff that's best at either is off the table.

[Kurald Galain]

The 'And' there is pretty crucial. Bloodrager can't get in on the T1 caster stuff. Which does sometimes involve standing there throwing spells at people.
Indeed the Bloodrager can't. On the other hand, the Warpriest and Magus have no problem at this, and in fact are better at the T1 caster stuff than the dragon disciple, until level 15 or so (because they get higher level spells earlier than the DD, and because the DD has a tight limit on spells known whereas the WP and M are unrestricted). Of course, most campaigns never get anywhere near level 15 in the first place.

And note the difference between your approach ("sometimes involve standing there throwing spells") and Gnaeus's approach (cast more summon spells per day than a magus has spell slots). The former works fine with a gish, the latter does not.

That doesn't mean that the WP and M are the undisputed best, but it does mean that as stated, Sorcadin+Dragon isn't really the best option in Pathfinder, plenty functional, but does too many things "second best". Doing the same thing without DD would be better, really.

[Florian]

*Shrugs*

I'm with that weird guy Gerald on this. The paradigm has changed, you either understand it or you don't.

[Azoth]

Indeed the Bloodrager can't. On the other hand, the Warpriest and Magus have no problem at this, and in fact are better at the T1 caster stuff than the dragon disciple, until level 15 or so (because they get higher level spells earlier than the DD, and because the DD has a tight limit on spells known whereas the WP and M are unrestricted). Of course, most campaigns never get anywhere near level 15 in the first place.

And note the difference between your approach ("sometimes involve standing there throwing spells") and Gnaeus's approach (cast more summon spells per day than a magus has spell slots). The former works fine with a gish, the latter does not.

That doesn't mean that the WP and M are the undisputed best, but it does mean that as stated, Sorcadin+Dragon isn't really the best option in Pathfinder, plenty functional, but does too many things "second best". Doing the same thing without DD would be better, really.

Unless you just use the Mage Guild rules and at level 3 cast as a Sorc 2, and at level 7 are casting as a Sorc 7 due to Eclectic and Esoteric Training. Then use Favored Prestige Class and Prestigious Spellcaster to negate the other caster level losses.

Then you are a full caster with a better base chasis. Having higher level spells than a Warpriest or a Magus, at all but the absolute lowest of levels.

[Peat]

Unless you just use the Mage Guild rules and at level 3 cast as a Sorc 2, and at level 7 are casting as a Sorc 7 due to Eclectic and Esoteric Training. Then use Favored Prestige Class and Prestigious Spellcaster to negate the other caster level losses.

Then you are a full caster with a better base chasis. Having higher level spells than a Warpriest or a Magus, at all but the absolute lowest of levels.

If Esoteric Training is on the table, things change a lot indeed. Can't imagine it is at most tables though.

[Kurald Galain]

Unless you just use the Mage Guild rules and at level 3 cast as a Sorc 2, and at level 7 are casting as a Sorc 7 due to Eclectic and Esoteric Training.
That's a good trick I hadn't seen before.

Although the consensus on Eclectic/Esoteric Training appears to be that they're massively overpowered and should be banned. In fact, Prestigious Spellcaster is also a commonly banned feat, although this one is more controversial. Looks like people think full casters don't need the boost :smallbiggrin:

[Azoth]

That's a good trick I hadn't seen before.

Although the consensus on Eclectic/Esoteric Training appears to be that they're massively overpowered and should be banned. In fact, Prestigious Spellcaster is also a commonly banned feat, although this one is more controversial. Looks like people think full casters don't need the boost :smallbiggrin:

It is still nevertheless a valid option to take. If the OP or the DM feel otherwise that is their own personal prerogative. I am merely laying out options to consider.

[Gnaeus]

Well you can hardly complain about the Magus spending feats on this when you're sinking several feats into Prestigious Spellcaster :smallamused:

Anyway, you'd use retraining to have the highest two summon spells you can cast. Then you open combat with one summon and start gishing; because if your strategy is to summon every round (which is pretty good, mind you) then there's no point in building a gish any more. The wizard, druid, and summoner can all get critters as a standard action, making them hands down better at minionmancy than a magus or a sorcadin.

I mean, all you're proving here is that a tier-1 caster is stronger than a gish. Which is clearly true, but a tier-1 caster doesn't need levels in paladin or dragon disc. Why build a character for melee if you're not going to melee?

Well, having +3 caster levels is pretty well worth 4 feats, and knowing 7 extra spells isn’t worth more than 1. So there’s that.

So you aren’t nearly as good at summoning, you just have the highest 2 spell levels and less castings of those by level 10. You are way worse at utility summoning. It probably isn’t woth taking summons feats. You aren’t casting SM 1 for traps or pulling levers or SM 4 for a giant list of utility spells. So that’s fine, you can still be workable. But it makes your claim that you are comparable in summoning hilariously wrong.

The entire reason that summons came up (although it also shows the casting superiority of DD by level 10, despite your willful disbelief on how prestigious spellcaster works as clarified by 3 other people you ignored) is that it helps action economy. You don’t walk into a room and start spamming summons. Neither one of us is best at that. You summon that Bralani and then enter the room, and beat face along with your summoned buddy (buddies) And again, we can both do that. But if I am casting my top spell or 2 before I engage, the ability to spellcombat is vastly less impressive. If I am burning my slots for planar binding, it’s even less relevant.

So, you agreed that my saves were superior at the beginning of the conversation. Because of course you have little choice. So we walk into a room and make a save. What’s your action economy like when you are paralyzed? 0? Oh. How about when you are frightened? 1 but you are using it to teleport away? Oh. What if you are Dominated? 2 actions used to murder your teammates? Ouch. If you are at -hp from fireballs I am resistant to and saving against? 0 and needing to be saved before the next one.

At no point have I attempted to claim that Magus or warpriest aren’t good. They are. They are even simpler to build than DD. Likely simpler to play. But the claim that they are better until level 15 is simply wrong.

[grarrrg]

The draconic sorcerer bloodline abilities are pretty lacklustre (except for its L1 arcana), and especially so for a gish.

Crossblooded can fix the "meh"-ier parts of your bloodline. Pick Draconic for entry, and "other" for better abilities. The wording on DD is loose enough that it will progress either/both.

DD will still give you a Breath Weapon and Wings even if you didn't take those Bloodline options. Although there will be a little fudging in a couple places though: "At Xth level, a dragon disciple gains the Breath/Wings bloodline power, even if his level does not yet grant that power. Once his level is high enough to grant this ability through the bloodline...". Well, -technically- your level would be high enough, but you didn't actually -pick- the power so...
But the Breath Weapon is kinda 'eh', and Wings is great even without the upgrade.

As for the downsides, a Sorc/Paladin/DD should have no trouble with a -2 Will save, and your spells are already questionable enough that a few less known isn't going to hurt too much.



People also keep quoting me in this thread, it's like they think I know what I'm doing or something...

[Peat]

People also keep quoting me in this thread, it's like they think I know what I'm doing or something...

As much as anyone does, I think :P


No argument on the difficulty of RPing a LG follower of a CG deity, but the rules don't forbid it. Luckily Paladin's don't have to be within 1 step of their deity, unless you are playing PFS.


Just double checked - according to pfd20rsd, you need to be the same alignment as you god to take a divine fighting technique. So it is out http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/divine-fighting-technique-combat/ - and probably out on Monks too, unless Martial Artist stacks with the necessary archetypes.

[Azoth]

Just double checked - according to pfd20rsd, you need to be the same alignment as you god to take a divine fighting technique. So it is out http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/divine-fighting-technique-combat/ - and probably out on Monks too, unless Martial Artist stacks with the necessary archetypes.

Divine Anthology reprinted the feat and was released about a year after the last errata for Ultimate Combat. It lists the prerequisite as worshiping the deity whose Divine Fighting Technique you want to take.

[Peat]

Divine Anthology reprinted the feat and was released about a year after the last errata for Ultimate Combat. It lists the prerequisite as worshiping the deity whose Divine Fighting Technique you want to take.

Ah right.

Tbh, for this build, if you can worship Desna... Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spherewalker 4/Good Gish PrC 10 would be pretty neat. I'd rather get those after the fact +4 bonuses and +1 BAB than an extra four levels of bloodline. I'd rather use Evangelist than Dragon Disciple but there we go.