Capstones and multiclassing

[ZorroGames]

Please no opinionated rants about why multiclassing should be banned. Seen it before and consider it controlling at best.

Also, yes getting to 20 may not be common or may be very rare but if you do achieve 20 the capstone should be worth the previous 19 levels.

The question is what Classes/Subclasses have a Capstone so great that that capstone makes not multiclassing worth the missed synergy?

A fourth attack per round? Archdruid? Signature spell? Stroke of Luck?

Flip side what capstones just are not worth it.

[bid]

I can't remember the discussion, but I think pally/rogue were deemed best while casters "regain a slot" variations were weakest.

EDIT:
I think barbarian was outclassed by the champion dip. Once you get brutal critical 3, improved critical gets real good.

[Iados]

Please no opinionated rants about why multiclassing should be banned. Seen it before and consider it controlling at best.

Also, yes getting to 20 may not be common or may be very rare but if you do achieve 20 the capstone should be worth the previous 19 levels.

The question is what Classes/Subclasses have a Capstone so great that that capstone makes not multiclassing worth the missed synergy?

A fourth attack per round? Archdruid? Signature spell? Stroke of Luck?

Flip side what capstones just are not worth it.

Fighters, Barbarians, and Druids each get capstones that outweigh anything multiclassing can give to those base classes. Four attacks per round are amazing, while the Barbarian's capstone equals four ASIs worth of Attribute improvements. And a Level 20 Druid is effectively immortal for any competent player unless the party is taking on a god.

Conversely, Sorcerers and Rangers definitely have more to get from multiclassing than from their capstones. Sorcerers get a whopping 4 sorcery points restored on a short rest at level 20? That's a capstone that a sorlock (SOR 1/WAR 3) can replicate as early as level 4. And the Ranger capstone is a mechanic that should literally be available to the class at level 1.

[Xihirli]

Conversely, Sorcerers and Rangers definitely have more to get from multiclassing than from their capstones. Sorcerers get a whopping 4 sorcery points restored on a short rest at level 20? That's a capstone that a sorlock (SOR 1/WAR 3) can replicate as early as level 4. And the Ranger capstone is a mechanic that should literally be available to the class at level 1.

Sorcerers don't get Sorcery Points until level 2.

[Blood of Gaea]

Depends on the particular build. An Eldritch Knight who makes large use of Booming Blade or Greenflame Blade with a bonus action attack has a lot to gain from Abjuration/Bladesinger Wizard or Sorcerer levels for example, while an Eldritch Knight that just wants to augment their regular attacks would likely want 20 Fighter.

So basically, context is key. What class are we talking about, and what do you want out of build?


Sorcerers don't get Sorcery Points until level 2.
A Sorlock will also generally get to level 5 before taking Warlock levels, 3rd level spells are a big deal after all.

[Angelalex242]

Paladin capstones generally pull their weight. Go Super Saiyan for 10 minutes, more or less.

[Blood of Gaea]

Paladin capstones generally pull their weight. Go Super Saiyan for 10 minutes, more or less.
True, though Sorcadin is such a strong combo that from a purely mechanical point of view their capstone is an easy trade to make. Warlocks too, but to a lesser extent.

[Ellisthion]

a Level 20 Druid is effectively immortal [...] unless the party is taking on a god

Wait... what are your level 20 characters fighting? I feel like that's a viable concern. :smallbiggrin:

[Dr. Cliché]

Moon Druid is the only class that I would absolutely never want to multiclass.

Barbarian and Paladin are ones that I'd definitely want to avoid multiclassing with.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Please no opinionated rants about why multiclassing should be banned. Seen it before and consider it controlling at best.

Also, yes getting to 20 may not be common or may be very rare but if you do achieve 20 the capstone should be worth the previous 19 levels.

The question is what Classes/Subclasses have a Capstone so great that that capstone makes not multiclassing worth the missed synergy?

A fourth attack per round? Archdruid? Signature spell? Stroke of Luck?

Flip side what capstones just are not worth it.

Capstone? Is that some magical thing you get after an your Eagle Scout badge?

All kidding aside, I have a level 7 character right now. Can't remember if I've had a higher level one since Reagan was President.

How often do you hit level 20? If that happens alot and you keep playing with your characters this is important.

Lets say you play for 3 years, hit 20 then finish up in another month. Them level 3 abilities you've been using for 2&1/2 years have gotten you way more use than your level 20 capstone.

[RSP]

Though a fantastic class in general, there really is no need to go for the Bard capstone. I'd say no reason to ever take it to 20, and multiple multiclassing options outweigh 19 too.

[Acavia]

While a fighter's capstone is very good, I think multiclassing a fighter is better, unless you have a set party that will consistently give you the same buffs that multiclassing can.

Any optimal fighter is either going to be a polearm master or a crossbow expert. So an optimal fighter already has 4 attacks per round at level 11. One more is still nice, but by multiclassing you can get more damage than that 5th attack would give you. For example, I am working on an eldritch knight crossbow expert that will be a sorcerer (divine soul.) With that multiclass, it will get 5th level sorcerer/cleric spells, which will include Holy Weapon (A bonus action cast that will add 2d8 damage per hit.) An extra 2d8 damage per hit with 4 attacks will outweigh a 5th attack. Also, on the way to 20, you would also get buffs that will materially improve your damage. Examples Bless (+1d4 to hits for more hits), Greater Invisibility (advantage for more hits) and others, plus more spell slots to fuel your buffs.

Since level 20 is rare, and a lot of time party members will not want to hold concentration just for you (is your cleric going to hold concentration just to give you Holy Weapon and will that cleric cast it back if it loses concentration) multiclassing a fighter is a more optimal path in my opinion especially considering that regardless of party buffs, it will improve you through level 19 on the way to 20.

[Iados]

Sorcerers don't get Sorcery Points until level 2.

You're absolutely correct. I should have consulted a PHB before asserting that, so my bad for thinking a Level 4 Sorlock could pull that off. Nevertheless, the Sorcerer's Level 20 capstone can still be replaced by a Level 5 Sorlock (SOR 2/WAR 3), which also happens to have fantastic synergy with Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast + Quickened Spell. I'm hard pressed to justify a situation in which a person should play Sorcerer all the way to Level 20 instead of multiclassing.

[Dr. Cliché]

Slightly off topic, but it bugs me that capstones like Superior Inspiration and Perfect Self only work if you have no uses of your ability left. Why couldn't they just give you the extra Inspiration or Ki, respectively, up to your maximum?

[Iados]

Wait... what are your level 20 characters fighting? I feel like that's a viable concern. :smallbiggrin:

Not every level 20 party needs to commit deicide. Maybe they just devote their efforts to lesser battles, like fighting groups of Pit Fiends? :smallbiggrin:

You're right that it's a viable concern. I'm just noting that the You-Absolutely-Can't-Be-Defeated clause for Moon Archdruids might be rendered null and void by a powerful deity. Might.

[Naanomi]

I have played a few campaigns to 20, and seen most of these at the table for what it matters... but this represents my opinions only not some sort of detailed or meticulous analysis

Great Capstones: Barbarian, Druid
Good Capstones: Fighter, Paladin, Warlock
OK Capstones: Cleric, Rogue, Wizard
Meh Capstones: Bard, Monk, Sorcerer
Insultingly Bad Capstones: Ranger

Anything ‘Ok’ or less, I consider short dip multiclassing without feeling too bad about it. Anything Good or better has to be a very integrated muticlass-necessary concept to outweigh the projected loss (like Sorcadin... it makes losing the Paladin capstone Ok and you are multiclassing earlyish in your career)

Full casters tend to also get spells known and/or spell slots (which can be got from some but not all multi-classing options) which help mitigate a poor capstone. Some classes also get one more point of Ki/Sorcery Points/whatever which isn’t stellar but shouldn’t be forgotten either

[MaxWilson]

Please no opinionated rants about why multiclassing should be banned. Seen it before and consider it controlling at best.

Also, yes getting to 20 may not be common or may be very rare but if you do achieve 20 the capstone should be worth the previous 19 levels.

The question is what Classes/Subclasses have a Capstone so great that that capstone makes not multiclassing worth the missed synergy?

A fourth attack per round? Archdruid? Signature spell? Stroke of Luck?

Flip side what capstones just are not worth it.

Since you're asking... the only capstones that tempt me into staying single-classed are:

Moon Druid for infinite wildshape and spellcasting without components. Maybe other kinds of druids because of the out-of-combat options and general coolness, but Moon Druid for sure because they have a better wildshape action economy and just better wildshapes in general.

Eldritch Knight, because getting four attacks is hard to replicate on any other chassis, and there are some creatures (like Tiamat) that fighters are therefore uniquely suited to take down. (Staying pure fighter is not a given, just a temptation. EK/Rogue is also tempting, or EK/wizard.)

Shadow Monk, because infinite Empty Body and infinite Pass Without Trace is so cool. (I realize this one is not without its downsides, and I could in certain circumstances imagine stopping at Monk 18.)

That's it.


Capstone? Is that some magical thing you get after an your Eagle Scout badge?

All kidding aside, I have a level 7 character right now. Can't remember if I've had a higher level one since Reagan was President.

How often do you hit level 20? If that happens alot and you keep playing with your characters this is important.

Lets say you play for 3 years, hit 20 then finish up in another month. Them level 3 abilities you've been using for 2&1/2 years have gotten you way more use than your level 20 capstone.

Some people have more fun aiming for a goal, even if they never reach it.

If I play a Moon Druid, and die permanently at Moon Druid 9, that's not going to make me regret not being a Barbarian 2/Moon Druid 7 even though the Barbarian dip would have been more mechanically powerful at the levels I actually played.

Being powerful is not the point. Using your mechanical abilities a lot is not the point. Enjoying the game is the point.

[Naanomi]

Since you're asking... the only capstones that tempt me into staying single-classed are:
Why not Barbarian? +2 Hit/Damage for all attacks, +40 HP, plus saves and carry weight... and Unlimited Rages

[ZorroGames]

Why not Barbarian? +2 Hit/Damage for all attacks, +40 HP, plus saves and carry weight... and Unlimited Rages

Well I think carry weight is a sadly hand waved element in many games, especially AL.

Great Capstone but like my favorite Champion some people want more suzzle and less steak so do not go to “20.”

[Vogie]

Actually, I could see a houserule that a 20th-level character will always have the capstone of their original class.

It would also add some differentiation and interesting choices for those multiclassing and who know they'll be going to max level. For example, A 20th level Bladelock / Fighter MC would have Eldritch Master (MORE SMITES), while a 20th level Fighter / Warlock MC would have 3 attacks, and so on.

[MaxWilson]

Why not Barbarian? +2 Hit/Damage for all attacks, +40 HP, plus saves and carry weight... and Unlimited Rages

Because the levels between Barbarian 5 and Barbarian 20 are so barren that +2 Hit/Damage, +40 HP, saves and carry weight, and Unlimited Rages doesn't begin to justify the investment. I would far, far rather play a Warbearian 20 (Barb 3/Bladelock 17) with fiendish temp HP, Armor of Agathys, True Polymorph/Foresight, Fear, Fireball, etc. on top of 3 rages/day, than a straight Barbarian 20 with unlimited rages per day. Remember that rage is merely a combat ability, and all it does (barring subclass features) is eke out HP, give advantage on Strength checks/saves, and increase strength-based melee damage, so unlimited rages is nothing like unlimited wildshape (turn into a bird, a dog, a fish, a spider whenever you want the movement mode, camouflage, interaction capabilities, or even just because you feel like expressing an emotion) or even unlimited Shield spells (which can have an impact greater than 2x HP in many situations).

Besides, anyone can get that exact same +2 to hit/damage via epic boons past 20th level, so all the Barbarian is really getting is some extra ASIs and unlimited rage, and the ASIs can't even be used on feats. I'd much rather have something unique and interesting than a boring old stat boost on a chassis that doesn't even have more than Extra Attack I.

YMMV.


Well I think carry weight is a sadly hand waved element in many games, especially AL.

Even in games where carry weight matters for e.g. collecting treasure hordes, investing 20 levels in Barbarian is hardly the only way to solve it. Mules come to mind, and so do servitors like Planar Bound elementals.

If 5E carry weight were more non-linear, like in AD&D, high Strength would be more attractive. Being able to carry 1440 lb. at full speed with Str 24 is kind of cool--you have a good chance of being able to pick up a horse and just walk off with it! But a Barbarian who gets only 360 lb. of carrying capacity (720 lb. if using the Bear totem ability) is easily replaced by just about any other solution, like a mule or even a couple of zombies. He's got nothing special to offer, unless you change the carry weight rules.

[Naanomi]

That is a warlock who dipped Barbarian, not the other way around... and I wouldn’t assume Epic Boones ever

[MaxWilson]

That is a warlock who dipped Barbarian, not the other way around...

And yet it plays almost identically to a Barbarian, when it wants to: fully capable of wading into combat and smashing things with a greataxe, for about the same damage as a dedicated Barbarian. And that's my point: Barbarian is so front-loaded that you can totally skip levels 4-20 and still not miss out on much of anything.

Again, YMMV. If you like Barbarian enough to stick with it, knock yourself out. But you asked why the Barb capstone doesn't tempt me and that is why.

[Angelalex242]

Paladins are also unique in that they have 7 different capstones to choose from...and some are better than others.

Elder Champion (Ancients) Avenging Angel (Vengeance) and Dread Lord (Oathbreaker) stand out as more awesome than the others.

[GlenSmash!]

And yet it plays almost identically to a Barbarian, when it wants to: fully capable of wading into combat and smashing things with a greataxe, for about the same damage as a dedicated Barbarian. And that's my point: Barbarian is so front-loaded that you can totally skip levels 4-20 and still not miss out on much of anything.

Again, YMMV. If you like Barbarian enough to stick with it, knock yourself out. But you asked why the Barb capstone doesn't tempt me and that is why.

Yeah, the draw to Barbarians for me is also the drawback. It takes 2 levels to feel like a true Barbarian Raging and Recklessly attacking all over the place, and 3 levels to feel special with subclass features.

Zealot's level 14 ability is the only thing unique enough to keep me single classed in Barb. And that's mostly based on the idea of Raging beyond death, as I've never gotten to try it out.

[Naanomi]

Pure barbarians can have very focused physical stats without losing anything; additional Warlock makes Charisma necessary to some degree. The Hit-Die difference shouldn’t be ignored either; 77 HP difference on average between a pure Barbarian and a 3/17 Multiclass (and that assumes the same CON, not a given). A matter of preference, to be sure, but the Capstone itself is impressive if you bother to get there (whether or not getting there is worth it in the first place).

Contrast with Ranger Capstone, which is pretty crappy and doesn’t even try to reward struggling through the Ranger advancement to the end

[Angelalex242]

Pure barbarians can have very focused physical stats without losing anything; additional Warlock makes Charisma necessary to some degree. The Hit-Die difference shouldn’t be ignored either; 77 HP difference on average between a pure Barbarian and a 3/17 Multiclass (and that assumes the same CON, not a given). A matter of preference, to be sure, but the Capstone itself is impressive if you bother to get there (whether or not getting there is worth it in the first place).

Contrast with Ranger Capstone, which is pretty crappy and doesn’t even try to reward struggling through the Ranger advancement to the end

Ranger capstone would be balanced if rangers got it at level 1.

[MaxWilson]

Pure barbarians can have very focused physical stats without losing anything; additional Warlock makes Charisma necessary to some degree. The Hit-Die difference shouldn’t be ignored either; 77 HP difference on average between a pure Barbarian and a 3/17 Multiclass (and that assumes the same CON, not a given). A matter of preference, to be sure, but the Capstone itself is impressive if you bother to get there (whether or not getting there is worth it in the first place).

Contrast with Ranger Capstone, which is pretty crappy and doesn’t even try to reward struggling through the Ranger advancement to the end

Agreed about MADness, sort of. Warbearian requires about four good stats to be fun--it's very MAD. But three of those stat requirements come from Barbarian--Warlock per se is SAD. So if you roll one or two good stats, you play a SAD character like a fighter or a bardlock; two stats and you play something like a tanky Fighter/Wizard; three good stats and you play something like a tanky Cleric/Wizard or a Paladorlock or a Roguesinger; four good stats and maybe a monklock or a Warbearian. If you roll three good stats, pure Barbarian is an option, but since you only roll three good stats once in a while, why waste the opportunity on a boring Barbarian when it's still basically the same thing as the SAD Fighter you can play any time you want?

Hit-die difference probably skews in the Warbearian's favor due to Fiendlock temp HP and Armor of Agathys access. (And Armor of Agathys goes very well with rage and Reckless Attack. Talk about enemies being caught between a rock and a hard place!) And 40 HP of that HP difference doesn't come online until the Barb capstone at level 20, at which point the Warbearian has 9th level spells like True Polymorph to polymorph into a 333 HP Ancient White Dragon, for example.

I don't see anything about the Barb 20 capstone that ever makes it attractive enough to stick with. Zealots come closest, but still, not even then. It's not even a very impressive capstone: basically +2 to hit (when you already have advantage) and +4 damage per round, and 40 extra HP, woohoo. Not. And more rages, enough to let you Rage against trivial foes instead of saving raging for tough ones, yawn. Maybe if it included a third attack I'd give that capstone some respect.

[quark12000]

Ranger capstone would be balanced if rangers got it at level 1.

I'd multiclass my ranger, but I'd have no idea what to multiclass him with, other than fighter.

[Christian]

Capstone? Is that some magical thing you get after an your Eagle Scout badge?

I'm fairly sure the next rank is Blood Pact Scout.

[MaxWilson]

I'd multiclass my ranger, but I'd have no idea what to multiclass him with, other than fighter.

I'd enjoy playing a Hunter 11 (for Volley)/Rogue 2/Illusionist 7 (for more spell slots and different spells known, plus Malleable Illusion for Disguise Self super-spy tricks, see this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?477658-Illusionist-Tricks) for more ideas). If you don't have the Int for wizard maybe just Hunter 11/SCAG Swashbuckler 9 for Panache and Sneak Attack at range.

[Mj_the_dM]

The Oath of Conquest paladin capstone is great, 1min per long rest of resistance to all damage, an extra attack (3 total) and crits on 19-20. Almost makes me want to ditch my original concept and not multiclass into warlock.

[Basement Cat]

Open Hand monk's capstone is potentially OP. You get free Ki points every round sufficient to utilize Quivering Palm...Every. Single. Round.

With such an ability a single monk can lay waste to most any opponent.

I've never reached 20th level outside of gimme games or ones that started off in the 4th Tier for fun but I'd be more terrified of facing off against such an opponent than practically any other.

Outside of a cage match, mind you. Monks are best when they can maneuver. :smalltongue:

[prototype00]

The Moon Druid capstone is pretty dang best at what it does.

Chances I’ll see it in play, ever: 0.000000001% recurring.

So I don’t sweat that one level of Barbarian I took at lvl 3 to become well nigh unkillable at this tier.

[Angelalex242]

The Oath of Conquest paladin capstone is great, 1min per long rest of resistance to all damage, an extra attack (3 total) and crits on 19-20. Almost makes me want to ditch my original concept and not multiclass into warlock.

Conquest's capstone isn't as good as Ancients, Vengeance, or Oathbreaker, but it's still pretty sweet.

Conquest basically makes you a midlevel fighter, temporarily. It's not unique, though.

[skaddix]

True, though Sorcadin is such a strong combo that from a purely mechanical point of view their capstone is an easy trade to make. Warlocks too, but to a lesser extent.

Well sure but most Sorcadin's are far more Sorcerer then Paladin ergo they are not giving up the Paladin Capstone...They are giving up the crappy Sorcerer one.

Moon Druid makes you a fool if you get it up.

Barbarian and Paladin are good. I say Paladin definitely has the best flavor of all capstones.
Fighter has diminishing returns 2 attacks is way better then 1, 3 is better then 2, but the value is decreasing.

[Luppers]

Open Hand monk's capstone is potentially OP. You get free Ki points every round sufficient to utilize Quivering Palm...Every. Single. Round.

If you mean the monk 20 ability "Perfect self", it's actually when you roll initiative, not every round, and only when you have 0 ki. As a capstone it's not great imo.

[ZorroGames]

I'd multiclass my ranger, but I'd have no idea what to multiclass him with, other than fighter.

One place for ideas on this is PeteNutButter’s Ultimate Optimizers Multiclassing guide on this forum.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?502248-Ultimate-Optimizer-s-Multiclassing-Guide

Cleric, Fighter, and Rogue are color coded sky blue. Gold would be best but he does not have any listed for ranger.