Druid, the King of Burglars

[odigity]

I just noticed for the first time this weekened that druids make the best burglars - way better than rogues.

At level 1:

* Guidance cantrip to help your stealth / thieves tools skill checks.
* Mending cantrip to repair any damage done during the burglary - like perhaps a circle cut into a window...
* Charm Person spell in case you get caught, or need to get past someone.
* Detect Magic spell to find both traps and valuables.
* Jump spell to slightly expand your the number of places you can reach.

At level 2:

* You can Wild Shape into a tiny insect, sneak into a room, change back, fill your pockets/backpack with valuables, change into an insect again, and leave.

At level 3:

* Beast Sense spell to scout a location.
* Darkvision spell to see without light.
* Enhance Ability spell for general skill help.
* Find Traps spell for obvious reasons.
* Locate Object spell for obvious reasons.
* Pass Without Trace spell to get +10 stealth and avoid detection or being followed.

By level 3, you're world-class. Dip one level of Bard or Rogue for expertise to be even better.

Right?

[hymer]

Right?
Sure. You should get proficiency in Thieves' Tools, but that shouldn't be much of a problem.
Wild Shape also allows you to burrow and climb better than any Rogue, and eventually swim and fly. And Land Druid bonus spells can include things like Invisibility and Gaseous Form.

[Unoriginal]

By level 3, you're world-class.

Yeah, no.

By level 3 you're good, not world-class.

You're also blowing off a lot of magic on this. Most targets that would require that kind of means to break it have the means to detect you, or at least to pay an Investigator competent enough to find you afterward, and if the place doesn't require it you're using a lot of energy for something that could be done at lower cost. And using that much magic means you can do one job per day, while the Rogue can do a crime dorée if they want.

Still, it's indeed true that Druids make good burglars. Just not *that* good.

Remember to pick proficiency in Thief's tools, though.


Also, not trying to mock you or anything, but I find it rather funny that you preface this with "Druids are better burglars than Rogues", then conclude by "to be an even better burglar, take levels in Rogue"

[EvilAnagram]

Unoriginal makes a good point in that anti-magic defenses are likely to protect the most dangerous targets. A halfling thief never loses his mobility, agility, or sneakiness. It is inherently part of him.

[Unoriginal]

Unoriginal makes a good point in that anti-magic defenses are likely to protect the most dangerous targets. A halfling thief never loses his mobility, agility, or sneakiness. It is inherently part of him.

And since you use a lot of your slots up-front, good luck if you run into troubles once inside. Not to mention all that magic is going to be noticeable. If not during the crime, it'll be afterward when they put someone on the case.

Does Pass Without a Trace work against a guard dog's keen smell?

In any case, 5e has always demonstrated that a martial on their own is can do a task well, that a caster had access to spells and buff to do the task well, but that using the spells to boost the martial is how you do great.

Same way why a Wizard using an Invisibility spell on themselves will be less effective than if it was cast on a Rogue.

[JellyPooga]

Most targets that would require that kind of means to break it have the means to detect you

"Most" targets? Really? At level 3? I have to disagree. It's very setting dependent, but magic, its use, peoples familiarity with it and countermeasures, are by no means ubiquitous, especially in campaigns aimed at characters as low as level 3. Yeah, certain high-value targets that have access to vast wealth or talent will have anti-magic defences, but Joe the Inkeeper, the local small-town Fighters Guild or the Bandits living in the forest probably don't.

And who said anything about "requiring" magic to do a job? Druids can use magic to burgle perfectly mundane places, the same as Rogues aren't forced to use their Expertise to break into the hardest possible places they are capable of breaking into. Druids just have more options of where, when and how they break in because they use magic.

@EvilAnagram; Halfling Druids don't exist? Conserving spell slots can't happen? None of these tricks work after level 3 when you have more spell slots?

[Contrast]

Does Pass Without a Trace work against a guard dog's keen smell?

Yes? In the immediate situation you get +10, dog gets advantage from Keen Smell (if the DM thinks its relevant).

In terms of tracking Pass Without Trace specifically says you can't be tracked by non magical means and that 'A creature that receives this bonus leaves behind no tracks or other traces of its passage'.

So unless its a magic dog that seems to be about the only interaction between the two.

[smcmike]

Whether or not a Druid is “world-class” at third level, they pretty clearly are the best option for burglary at that level.

Wild shape does most of the work, and is a pretty cheap resource. It works for disguise, stealth, entry, and mobility. Pass without Trace is obviously huge for stealth, and makes you better than anyone at third level. The other spells are just icing on top.

As for adding rogue levels, sure, that can improve your abilities as a burglar. That doesn’t mean that straight rogue is better than straight Druid, though.

[Unoriginal]

"Most" targets? Really? At level 3? I have to disagree. It's very setting dependent, but magic, its use, peoples familiarity with it and countermeasures, are by no means ubiquitous, especially in campaigns aimed at characters as low as level 3. Yeah, certain high-value targets that have access to vast wealth or talent will have anti-magic defences, but Joe the Inkeeper, the local small-town Fighters Guild or the Bandits living in the forest probably don't.

And who said anything about "requiring" magic to do a job? Druids can use magic to burgle perfectly mundane places, the same as Rogues aren't forced to use their Expertise to break into the hardest possible places they are capable of breaking into. Druids just have more options of where, when and how they break in because they use magic.

You misunderstood what I wrote.

IF the target doesn't require that kind of magic to rob it -as you said, Joe the Innkeeper's moneybag or the forest bandits' chest of stuff, it's a waste. You can earn more money by using those spell slots to provide services in a legit manner, especially as a Druid.

IF the target does require that kind of magic, then the ones in charge of protecting it will have the means to counter a lvl 3 caster, or else they'd have already been robbed.

It's a bit of a Dyson Shell paradox: if you have the means to do it, it means it's not worth doing it.

[JellyPooga]

You misunderstood what I wrote.

IF the target doesn't require that kind of magic to rob it -as you said, Joe the Innkeeper's moneybag or the forest bandits' chest of stuff, it's a waste. You can earn more money by using those spell slots to provide services in a legit manner, especially as a Druid.

IF the target does require that kind of magic, then the ones in charge of protecting it will have the means to counter a lvl 3 caster, or else they'd have already been robbed.

It's a bit of a Dyson Shell paradox: if you have the means to do it, it means it's not worth doing it.

On the other shoe, whether it's worth it or not, the Druid can do the job that requires magic, while the Rogue cannot (without outside assistance). If the question is "Are Druids better burglars than Rogues?" then the answer is "On the whole, yes". Sure, there's some circumstances where a Rogue does better, but largely speaking a Druid has the edge.

[Unoriginal]

Whether or not a Druid is “world-class” at third level, they pretty clearly are the best option for burglary at that level.



On the other shoe, whether it's worth it or not, the Druid can do the job that requires magic, while the Rogue cannot (without outside assistance). If the question is "Are Druids better burglars than Rogues?" then the answer is "On the whole, yes". Sure, there's some circumstances where a Rogue does better, but largely speaking a Druid has the edge.

You know what?

We're roleplayers, and characters should live and die in the field, not just be mathematical abstractions theorists can discuss all day long to prove nothing.

And this forum happen to have a playing section.


How about we put that claim to the test, as the gods intended?

[hymer]

How about we put that claim to the test, as the gods intended?
The gods intended this? I really must have a word with my theological advisor.
But it sounds like an interesting test, which is likely to be both instructive and amusing. You just need a DM to create a small handful of burglary scenarios with no particular PC in mind (so create them before you tell them the intent), and then run both the rogue and the druid through them a few times by various players.

[smcmike]

You know what?

We're roleplayers, and characters should live and die in the field, not just be mathematical abstractions theorists can discuss all day long to prove nothing.

And this forum happen to have a playing section.


How about we put that claim to the test, as the gods intended?

What do you propose, exactly? Burglary involves a whole lot of DM/player interaction, so I don’t see how you can “objectively” answer the question. There isn’t any rule about how suspicious a storehouse guard is of the cat lounging in the sun across the street, for instance.

[hymer]

What do you propose, exactly? Burglary involves a whole lot of DM/player interaction, so I don’t see how you can “objectively” answer the question. There isn’t any rule about how suspicious a storehouse guard is of the cat lounging in the sun across the street, for instance.

Good point. Once the scenarios are set up, we have various DMs run it, too. It'll be a lot of testing, I suppose. Five scenarios, two characters (at least), five DMs, five players?

[Unoriginal]

The gods intended this? I really must have a word with my theological advisor.


Gygax and Anderson clearly intended for PCs to go in places and steal stuff.



But it sounds like an interesting test, which is likely to be both instructive and amusing. You just need a DM to create a small handful of burglary scenarios with no particular PC in mind (so create them before you tell them the intent), and then run both the rogue and the druid through them a few times by various players.


What do you propose, exactly? Burglary involves a whole lot of DM/player interaction, so I don’t see how you can “objectively” answer the question. There isn’t any rule about how suspicious a storehouse guard is of the cat lounging in the sun across the street, for instance.

You can't actually answer that kind of things "objectively", anyway. That's what I'm saying we need a test field.

I say someone, me, you, whoever, creates a one-PC-scenario where the goal is to rob a specific place, then have a Druid, a Rogue, and maybe a few other characters of any class who wish to try try it, in separate ways.

Won't prove anything for sure, true, but it's better than play the Armchair Strategist over and over and over like that Nameless King spammer.


Good point. Once the scenarios are set up, we have various DMs run it, too. It'll be a lot of testing, I suppose. Five scenarios, two characters (at least), five DMs, five players?

Suppose it would work, too. But we'd need some Goodfellas for this.

[Nifft]

There isn’t any rule about how suspicious a storehouse guard is of the cat lounging in the sun across the street, for instance.

"Norbert, lookit dat."

"Lookit what, Dav?"

"It's one-a dem cat burglars."

"How d'ya reckon?"

"The magic thingum lit up, so we gots probable paws."

"Let's tail him."

[Tanarii]

Whether or not a Druid is “world-class” at third level, they pretty clearly are the best option for burglary at that level.


What do you propose, exactly? Burglary involves a whole lot of DM/player interaction, so I don’t see how you can “objectively” answer the question. There isn’t any rule about how suspicious a storehouse guard is of the cat lounging in the sun across the street, for instance.If you can't answer it objectively, then you shouldn't be making absolute statements that imply factual-ness about the matter.

(And I'm being hypocritical in saying that, because I do it all the time on these forums. :smallwink: )

[Unoriginal]

How about this: five DMs write one scenario each , then we pick up at random who runs which?

[smcmike]

If you can't answer it objectively, then you shouldn't be making absolute statements that imply factual-ness about the matter.

(And I'm being hypocritical in saying that, because I do it all the time on these forums. :smallwink: )

Fair criticism. I guess really there’s nothing wrong with testing through play. Really it’s more that I’m not interested in doing it, and I have concerns about fairness unless the DM is blind to the purpose of the experiment.

[Unoriginal]

Fair criticism. I guess really there’s nothing wrong with testing through play. Really it’s more that I’m not interested in doing it, and I have concerns about fairness unless the DM is blind to the purpose of the experiment.

Best I can do is promise to be as fair as I can be, if I DM it. I know it's not worth much, but eh.

[Coec]

Druids at 3rd level are good, and can be better than most rogues. However the one thing I would point out at low levels is that, in your example, you can't fly because you need to be 8th to have the ability to fly. Also you can only beast shape so a fly is out of the question as that is an insect. Though I'm AFB you also use your skills unless the skills of the beast are better at which point you use there's.
As I see it, the only things a druid at that level has over a rogue is his spells and wild shape. So whose skill is better? Brag all you want druid, but without magic you got nothing but average skills for thieving.

[Unoriginal]

C'mon, guys, we always talk about things, why not demonstrate them?

We could make it fun, maybe with a theme?

[hymer]

C'mon, guys, we always talk about things, why not demonstrate them?

We could make it fun, maybe with a theme?

I'm supposed to be preparing for a gaming session right now, so I can't really help at the moment. But I like the idea.

[Tetrasodium]

I just noticed for the first time this weekened that druids make the best burglars - way better than rogues.

At level 1:

* Guidance cantrip to help your stealth / thieves tools skill checks.
* Mending cantrip to repair any damage done during the burglary - like perhaps a circle cut into a window...
* Charm Person spell in case you get caught, or need to get past someone.
* Detect Magic spell to find both traps and valuables.
* Jump spell to slightly expand your the number of places you can reach.

At level 2:

* You can Wild Shape into a tiny insect, sneak into a room, change back, fill your pockets/backpack with valuables, change into an insect again, and leave.

At level 3:

* Beast Sense spell to scout a location.
* Darkvision spell to see without light.
* Enhance Ability spell for general skill help.
* Find Traps spell for obvious reasons.
* Locate Object spell for obvious reasons.
* Pass Without Trace spell to get +10 stealth and avoid detection or being followed.

By level 3, you're world-class. Dip one level of Bard or Rogue for expertise to be even better.

Right?

Some of this plus all the nasty little 1hp poisonous/deadly critters they can wildshape into is why one of the intelligence gathering government agencies (think cia+fbi) in one of my games has a particular sect (http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/The_Gatekeepers) of druids "s to be extremely dangerous & best left alone when a long list of extraplanar influences were suspected to be present as whatever problems the druids caused were often short lived & resulting in the resolution of the original problems being investigated by the assigned Dark Lantern agent."

Not only are they great at B&E, they are great at targeted assassination.

[Nifft]

the intelligence gathering government agencies (think cia+fbi) in one of my games has a particular sect (http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/The_Gatekeepers) of druids

CIA = Canine Intelligence Agency

FBI = Feline Bureau of Investigation

Both of these agencies are composed entirely of Druids who share a common goal, yet for some reason they don't get along with each other.

[Tubben]

* You can Wild Shape into a tiny insect, sneak into a room, change back, fill your pockets/backpack with valuables, change into an insect again, and leave.


Well no insect, but yes, mice or something would work :-).

Just hope there is no cat.

Or that you need another wildshape, because you are limited to 2.

[Tetrasodium]

Well no insect, but yes, mice or something would work :-).

Just hope there is no cat.

Or that you need another wildshape, because you are limited to 2.

Pretty quickly, wildshape lasts long enough to take a short rest while wildshaped

[Telok]

I suggest that you identify potential or intentional B&E scenarios in official modules. Those will assure a level of fairness and some adherence to the default setting's level of magic use.

Then you just need some reasonably impartial DMs for play-by-posts.

[JellyPooga]

As I see it, the only things a druid at that level has over a rogue is his spells and wild shape. So whose skill is better? Brag all you want druid, but without magic you got nothing but average skills for thieving.

Uh, stating the obvious much? Of course a Druid without magic or Wild Shape is worse than a Rogue. Not a lot worse, if you're built for it, but worse nonetheless. With magic and Wild Shape, on the other hand, the Druid has the Rogue beat hands down;

Exhibit A: Rogue (Lvl.3);

- Stealth +7 (+3 Dex +2 Proficiency +2 Expertise)
- Speed: 30ft x2 (Cunning Action: Dash) = 60ft
- Size: Small or Medium

Exhibit B: Druid (Lvl.3, Giant Wolf Spider form);

- Stealth +17 (+7 Spidey Stealth +10 Pass Without Trace) +Advantage (Enhance Ability (Dex))
- Speed: 50ft (40ft +10ft (Longstrider), Climb Speed: 40ft (+Spider Climb)
- Size: Medium
- Blindsight 10ft

Exhibit C: Druid (Lvl.3, Normal Form);

- Thieves Tools +6 to +9 (+3 Dex, +2 Proficiency +1d4 Guidance)

At higher levels, the Rogue becomes more reliable (literally) with Reliable Talent and more Expertise, but the Druid also gains access to better spells and Wild Shape forms.

[The Jack]

Just reading this, my opinion of druids changed from "Cleric who thinks he's a nature wizard but can't ever become god" to "something actually worth playing"

From an RP standpoint though, it's not really fitting.

[JellyPooga]

From an RP standpoint though, it's not really fitting.

Why not? Not all Druids have to be woods-dwelling tree-huggers. A Druid that learned their craft in the back-alleys and sewers of a bustling city is just as valid a concept as any other, learning the magic of the forgotten, lost and the unloved; vermin, strays and the struggling plant-life of what small parks and greens have been allowed to flourish there.. Such a character turning their abilities to a life of crime seems only fitting.

[Blood of Gaea]

I mean, you could do most of that with an Arcane Trickster, and if you're particularly tied to Guidance and Pass Without Trace you could take Magic Initiate. At that point, you have everything besides Wildshape, and also higher bonuses from Expertise. There are also some nice things to be said about an Arcane Trickster using Mage Hand. Prestidigitation and Mending can also be used to clean up after yourself.

[Tubben]

Exhibit B: Druid (Lvl.3, Giant Wolf Spider form);

- Stealth +17 (+7 Spidey Stealth +10 Pass Without Trace) +Advantage (Enhance Ability (Dex))
- Speed: 50ft (40ft +10ft (Longstrider), Climb Speed: 40ft (+Spider Climb)
- Size: Medium
- Blindsight 10ft


How many concentrations spells can a lv 3 Druid maintain ? :)
(Pass Without Trace & Enhance Ability are both concentration spells)

Druids are cool, no doubt. I love them.
But you should not forget. An Halfing Rogue can use his hands, the druid has to use switch from one form to the next. And he has only 2 Wildshapes.
If you use an giant wolf spider to do your thing, you have to switch the form to pick locks and other stuff you needs your hands for :-):smallsmile:

[Coec]

Uh, stating the obvious much? Of course a Druid without magic or Wild Shape is worse than a Rogue. Not a lot worse, if you're built for it, but worse nonetheless. With magic and Wild Shape, on the other hand, the Druid has the Rogue beat hands down;

Exhibit A: Rogue (Lvl.3);

- Stealth +7 (+3 Dex +2 Proficiency +2 Expertise)
- Speed: 30ft x2 (Cunning Action: Dash) = 60ft
- Size: Small or Medium

Exhibit B: Druid (Lvl.3, Giant Wolf Spider form);

- Stealth +17 (+7 Spidey Stealth +10 Pass Without Trace) +Advantage (Enhance Ability (Dex))
- Speed: 50ft (40ft +10ft (Longstrider), Climb Speed: 40ft (+Spider Climb)
- Size: Medium
- Blindsight 10ft

Exhibit C: Druid (Lvl.3, Normal Form);

- Thieves Tools +6 to +9 (+3 Dex, +2 Proficiency +1d4 Guidance)

At higher levels, the Rogue becomes more reliable (literally) with Reliable Talent and more Expertise, but the Druid also gains access to better spells and Wild Shape forms.

That was my point. Without magic you don't have the best skill for the job. With magic anything is possible. A wizard can do a better job; because magic. Yes I agreed that the druid does it better, but that wasn't my point in making this statement.

Besides what's fun about pressing the easy button? Where's the challenge? The excitement or thrill? Might as well buy the campaign books your playing so you know everything. play everything on easy so you can't fail. Wouldn't want a challenge now.
And also what's the point of a rogue if the druid can do it better?

[smcmike]

I mean, you could do most of that with an Arcane Trickster, and if you're particularly tied to Guidance and Pass Without Trace you could take Magic Initiate. At that point, you have everything besides Wildshape, and also higher bonuses from Expertise. There are also some nice things to be said about an Arcane Trickster using Mage Hand. Prestidigitation and Mending can also be used to clean up after yourself.

You can’t get Pass without Trace using Magic Initiate, and Wildshape is a huge part of what makes druids good at this sort of challenge.

[Blood of Gaea]

You can’t get Pass without Trace using Magic Initiate, and Wildshape is a huge part of what makes druids good at this sort of challenge.
You're right, I mistook it as a 1st level spell. And while Wildshape is important, it's only two forms a day, most of which don't have hands. So you blow all your resources to rob one thing then largely suck for the rest of the day. A Rogue robs ten different places and can still be relevant in the next combat without taking a rest.

That said, Shadow Monks also make pretty good robbers, particularly with a Rogue dip.

[JellyPooga]

I mean, you could do most of that with an Arcane Trickster, and if you're particularly tied to Guidance and Pass Without Trace you could take Magic Initiate. At that point, you have everything besides Wildshape, and also higher bonuses from Expertise. There are also some nice things to be said about an Arcane Trickster using Mage Hand. Prestidigitation and Mending can also be used to clean up after yourself.

1) Pass Without Trace is a 2nd level spell. You can't get it with Magic Initiate.
2) Arcane Tricksters don't have access to Guidance unless they take Magic Initiate.
3) Druids get Mending too.
4) Arcane Tricksters have many fewer spell slots than a Druid of equal level.
5) Wild Shape is a big deal for infiltration; size, speeds (fly, climb, burrow), skills, sight, innocuosness (innocuosity? innocuououousisness? whatever.), plus abilities like Spider Climb and Hold Breath.


How many concentrations spells can a lv 3 Druid maintain ? :)
(Pass Without Trace & Enhance Ability are both concentration spells)

Druids are cool, no doubt. I love them.
But you should not forget. An Halfing Rogue can use his hands, the druid has to use switch from one form to the next. And he has only 2 Wildshapes.
If you use an giant wolf spider to do your thing, you have to switch the form to pick locks and other stuff you needs your hands for :-):smallsmile:

Huh. I would've sworn PWT wasn't a Concentration spell. Still, +17 (even without advantage) beats +8. By double.

Being able to pick locks or otherwise use your hands is an issue for Wild Shape, but you do get 2 uses and Wild Shape may well allow you to bypass things like doors and the necessity to pick that lock.

[smcmike]

You're right, I mistook it as a 1st level spell. And while Wildshape is important, it's only two forms a day, most of which don't have hands. So you blow all your resources to rob one thing then largely suck for the rest of the day. A Rogue robs ten different places and can still be relevant in the next combat without taking a rest.

That said, Shadow Monks also make pretty good robbers, particularly with a Rogue dip.

Wild shape refreshes on a short rest.

Still, you’re right that a rogue doesn’t spend any resources at all on a successful burglary job, while a druid probably spends a bunch. In the context of a campaign, this may give a big edge to the rogue, or it may not. Burglarly isn’t a huge component of most campaigns, I would guess. If it comes up in the course of an adventuring day, you probably want the rogue. If it’s something that there is time to plan for and recover from, like a targeted burglary or random burglary for profit (less likely to come up, I think), the druid is great.

[Coec]

As the druid returns to his contact in the underworld to deliver the crown jewels thay he recently stole from the tower, he finds that they aren't on him. They were just here any hour ago. What gives? Looking a fool in front of the underboss.

The rogue strolls into the office, looks at the druid and smiles as he hands the crown jewels over. The druid never saw that coming with all his magic on enhancing his skills to steal them he forgot to ensure that they wouldn't be stolen from him.

I don't have to steal it from the original location. I'll let the druid do that. I just have to steal it from the druid.

[smcmike]

As the rogue returns to his contact in the underworld to deliver the crown jewels thay he recently stole from the tower, he finds that they aren't on him. They were just here any hour ago. What gives? Looking a fool in front of the underboss.

The druid strolls into the office, looks at the rogue and smiles as he hands the crown jewels over. The rogue never saw that coming with all his expertise on enhancing his skills to steal them he forgot to ensure that they wouldn't be stolen from him.

I don't have to steal it from the original location. I'll let the rogue do that. I just have to steal it from the rogue.

[JellyPooga]

As the druid returns to his contact in the underworld to deliver the crown jewels thay he recently stole from the tower, he finds that they aren't on him. They were just here any hour ago. What gives? Looking a fool in front of the underboss.

The rogue strolls into the office, looks at the druid and smiles as he hands the crown jewels over. The druid never saw that coming with all his magic on enhancing his skills to steal them he forgot to ensure that they wouldn't be stolen from him.

I don't have to steal it from the original location. I'll let the druid do that. I just have to steal it from the druid.

The jewels that have merged with the Druids form after Wild Shaping? Neat trick. Druids have access to one of the most secure methods of transporting stuff that no amount of Sleight of Hand (without magical assistance) can bypass.

[Coec]

The jewels that have merged with the Druids form after Wild Shaping? Neat trick. Druids have access to one of the most secure methods of transporting stuff that no amount of Sleight of Hand (without magical assistance) can bypass.

That only lasts an hour. You must have missed the party where I said an hour ago.

At Least Smcmike was original.

[The Jack]

Why not? Not all Druids have to be woods-dwelling tree-huggers. A Druid that learned their craft in the back-alleys and sewers of a bustling city is just as valid a concept as any other, learning the magic of the forgotten, lost and the unloved; vermin, strays and the struggling plant-life of what small parks and greens have been allowed to flourish there.. Such a character turning their abilities to a life of crime seems only fitting.

A druid is a druid, man. A religious leader (with other functions). He's clergy, a nature cleric. The sewer-kid-druid shtick is about as good as A war cleric of Maglubiyet that hugs trees and preaches peace and love.

Granted, the DnD monk really is more about fist fighting than religion, but the Druid still has heavy religious tones. You don't really "learn a craft" so much as you adopt a belief/philosophy/ lifestyle and all the things that come with that

[Blood of Gaea]

The jewels that have merged with the Druids form after Wild Shaping? Neat trick. Druids have access to one of the most secure methods of transporting stuff that no amount of Sleight of Hand (without magical assistance) can bypass.
I mean, there's sneak attack to get access to them.

But Rogues stealing from Druids wasn't part of the OP anyways, this isn't really relevant.

[JellyPooga]

That only lasts an hour. You must have missed the party where I said an hour ago.

At Least Smcmike was original.

At level 3, yes. At level 4 that's two hours. Level 6, 3 hours, etc. etc.

Let's not get bogged down in petty bickering, aye?

[JellyPooga]

A druid is a druid, man. A religious leader (with other functions). He's clergy, a nature cleric. The sewer-kid-druid shtick is about as good as A war cleric of Maglubiyet that hugs trees and preaches peace and love.

Granted, the DnD monk really is more about fist fighting than religion, but the Druid still has heavy religious tones. You don't really "learn a craft" so much as you adopt a belief/philosophy/ lifestyle and all the things that come with that

Er, what? A Druid can be anything from a street rat that's learned the natural magic of the city streets, to a specialist miner with an affinity for the deep places of the world, to a brutal tribal shaman, more warrior than advisor, to a shapeshifting hermit, to a tree-huggin hippy, to (as you say) a spiritual leader or more. Yes, there are religious tones to the description of the Class, but they're about as integral to that Class as being a criminal is to being a Rogue; i.e. by no means a necessity.

[Coec]

At level 3, yes. At level 4 that's two hours. Level 6, 3 hours, etc. etc.

Let's not get bogged down in petty bickering, aye?


Agreed, and it wasn't bickering. Only pointing out at level 3 as per the OP saying at level 3 druids are now world class burglars.

I was only adding some flavor to the mix with the whole stealing thing. Smcmike was correct that the druid correctly built can do the same thing to the rogue.

All said and done, druids outshines the rogue because of their magical capabilities plain and simple. Without them no contest.

[HMS Invincible]

FYI casting spells isn't quiet. Negates the benefit of using it for stealth. You may need to run after casting.

[Unoriginal]

FYI casting spells isn't quiet. Negates the benefit of using it for stealth. You may need to run after casting.

Indeed. People tend to forget that.


As the rogue returns to his contact in the underworld to deliver the crown jewels thay he recently stole from the tower, he finds that they aren't on him. They were just here any hour ago. What gives? Looking a fool in front of the underboss.

The druid strolls into the office, looks at the rogue and smiles as he hands the crown jewels over. The rogue never saw that coming with all his expertise on enhancing his skills to steal them he forgot to ensure that they wouldn't be stolen from him.

Ah, yes, because for the Druid to get ahead the Rogue needs to be a complete morons who forget thieves can still get their stuff stolen while going in a den of thieves.

How likely it is for it to happen. And how lucky it happens JUST in the way to make the Druid look good.

[The Jack]

Verbal components don't really require shouting. Somatic components probably don't usually require more than a free arm. It's more a "make a stealth check to cast" than "you auto bungle and now gotta fight thirty guards. Also isn't wild shape an easy bonus action?

Get three levels of druid
A couple levels of sorcerer for quiet casting.
A little rogue in there because the goal ain't a strong character, but a strong thief.


Oh, the big thing; Druids can't really carry much metal on them (they allegedly don't wear metal and armour, but you could apply that to the swaths of loot they're filling their robes with...) So if you want to make that a thieving mechanic...

[Osrogue]

Everyone knows the best burglar is a rogue with a tiny druid in his pocket.

[mephnick]

I'd love to see a cat carry a bag of gold, a magic sword or a crown. You actually have to be able to physically remove the item to steal it...

[Blood of Gaea]

I'd love to see a cat carry a bag of gold, a magic sword or a crown. You actually have to be able to physically remove the item to steal it...
I think the idea is to sneak in with Wildshape, become human to pick up the objects, then Wildshape again to leave.

That doesn't leave you any room for complications though.

[Unoriginal]

I'd love to see a cat carry a bag of gold, a magic sword or a crown. You actually have to be able to physically remove the item to steal it...

Khajit did nothing, Khajit is innocent of this crime!

[EvilAnagram]

You know what?

We're roleplayers, and characters should live and die in the field, not just be mathematical abstractions theorists can discuss all day long to prove nothing.

And this forum happen to have a playing section.


How about we put that claim to the test, as the gods intended?
I'd be willing to throw a quick burglary adventure togetherin the pursuit of science.

[Unoriginal]

I'd be willing to throw a quick burglary adventure togetherin the pursuit of science.

Nice.

We should agree on a few rules so that the adventures stay in the same ballpark. I propose an XP budget for the enemies corresponding to a standard adventuring day for one lvl 3, to spend however the DM wishes.

So 900-1200 XPs.


Just throwing that out here, but if we want to work with an unified theme, we could use the major arcanas of the Tarot. It's cliché, but it works.

So:
None (0 or 22) The Fool
1 The Magician
2 The High Priestess
3 The Empress
4 The Emperor
5 The Hierophant
6 The Lovers
7 The Chariot
8 Strength
9 The Hermit
10 Wheel of Fortune
11 Justice
12 The Hanged Man
13 Death
14 Temperance
15 The Devil
16 The Tower
17 The Star
18 The Moon
19 The Sun
20 Judgement
21 The World

I have a few ideas, notably for Strength.

[JellyPooga]

Nice.

We should agree on a few rules so that the adventures stay in the same ballpark. I propose an XP budget for the enemies corresponding to a standard adventuring day for one lvl 3, to spend however the DM wishes.

So 900-1200 XPs.


Just throwing that out here, but if we want to work with an unified theme, we could use the major arcanas of the Tarot. It's cliché, but it works.

So:
None (0 or 22) The Fool
1 The Magician
2 The High Priestess
3 The Empress
4 The Emperor
5 The Hierophant
6 The Lovers
7 The Chariot
8 Strength
9 The Hermit
10 Wheel of Fortune
11 Justice
12 The Hanged Man
13 Death
14 Temperance
15 The Devil
16 The Tower
17 The Star
18 The Moon
19 The Sun
20 Judgement
21 The World

I have a few ideas, notably for Strength.

Hmm...I'm happy to go with this. If I may suggest, anyone willing should probably tag at least two scenarios to create, so we can fill out the deck (so to speak).

I'd also suggest we concur on the target, or at least some basics regarding it. It should be something easily portable; no giant statues or tapestries. For the sake of ease, I'd suggest that in each case the target of the theft be a large jewel, 1/2lb in weight and a faceted sphere in shape.

I'd like to ear-mark The Tower, The Hermit and Temperance. Give me 24 hours to work up the details.

[Unoriginal]

I'd also suggest we concur on the target, or at least some basics regarding it. It should be something easily portable; no giant statues or tapestries. For the sake of ease, I'd suggest that in each case the target of the theft be a large jewel, 1/2lb in weight and a faceted sphere in shape.

Fair enough, but I think it should be 1 full pound.



I'd like to ear-mark The Tower, The Hermit and Temperance. Give me 24 hours to work up the details.

The Tower, eh? Going directly for the one Arcana announcing disaster, I see.

I'll ear-mark Strength, The Devil and maybe the Magician or the Emperor, myself.

Now, we must define what constitute a burglary, in this contest. We can hardly say going in a cave and stealing from a drake's nest is one, for example.

[JellyPooga]

Fair enough, but I think it should be 1 full pound.

It wad my first instinct, so agreed. It's only an arbitrary low weight.


The Tower, eh? Going directly for the one Arcana announcing disaster, I see.

Yup! I plan on that one being particularly nefarious :smallamused:


Now, we must define what constitute a burglary, in this contest. We can hardly say going in a cave and stealing from a drake's nest is one, for example.

So long as there's a challenge, the nature of the burglary is open to design, I think. The primary focus of a burglary should be to remove the target (our gem) from the location undetected, whether that mean evading a series of traps in a labyrinthine dungeon or sneaking past a troop of alert guards into a military camp, or anything in between. Stealing the gem from a drakes nest is as valid a scenario as any, so long as the focus is in the undetected theft as opposed to a fight to the death.

[EvilAnagram]

Fair enough, but I think it should be 1 full pound.



The Tower, eh? Going directly for the one Arcana announcing disaster, I see.

I'll ear-mark Strength, The Devil and maybe the Magician or the Emperor, myself.

Now, we must define what constitute a burglary, in this contest. We can hardly say going in a cave and stealing from a drake's nest is one, for example.

A burglary should be defined as an adventure in which the thief has to infiltrate a building in which a valuable item is placed. The thief must take the item and safely extricated from the locale.

I think it should include both mundane and magical tasks, providing a full day's worth of encounters.

[JellyPooga]

A burglary should be defined as an adventure in which the thief has to infiltrate a building in which a valuable item is placed. The thief must take the item and safely extricated from the locale.

I think it should include both mundane and magical tasks, providing a full day's worth of encounters.

I disagree that each scenario necessarily involve both magical and mundane encounters. I agree that we should be mindful to include both aspects, to gauge different aspects of the approaches to them, but that doesn't need to be in every scenario. How a character reacts to an entirely magical scenario is just as interesting as how they react to a mix or solely the mundane.

[smcmike]

Here’s the real question: does the building in question have any resident cats, dogs, or other small predators?

[EvilAnagram]

Here’s the real question: does the building in question have any resident cats, dogs, or other small predators?

That's entirely up to the DM

[Tetrasodium]

Just reading this, my opinion of druids changed from "Cleric who thinks he's a nature wizard but can't ever become god" to "something actually worth playing"

From an RP standpoint though, it's not really fitting.

the grtree hugging forest hippy druid stereotype is not something that applies to all druids or all settings, it's just sa stereotype someone at wotc is too in love withto stop pretending it's the only acceptable way for druids to exist.


I'd love to see a cat carry a bag of gold, a magic sword or a crown. You actually have to be able to physically remove the item to steal it...

easy... "You choose whether your equipment falls to the ground in your space, merges into your new form, or is worn by it" Pickup the 40 pound statue & wildshape into a mouse merging the statue into my form.

[Knaight]

If we want to do this right, we want people who have no idea what the scenarios are for to design them, and people who don't know about the competition to play them. Double blinding this is pretty key.

With that said - it's not exactly surprising that druids make amazing burglars. Shapeshifting is pretty well established as an incredible infiltration technique, and the quirks of how wildshape handles equipment removes the standard obstacles to using it to steal (actually removing the object in animal form being the biggest).

[EvilAnagram]

I'm going to go ahead and reserve the Wheel of Fortune.

[Unoriginal]

If we want to do this right, we want people who have no idea what the scenarios are for to design them, and people who don't know about the competition to play them. Double blinding this is pretty key.

I strongly disagree. The scenario writers should know the purpose in order to write one properly, and the players should know the point too. It's not a blind trial, it's a contest.

[Caelic]

Why not? Not all Druids have to be woods-dwelling tree-huggers. A Druid that learned their craft in the back-alleys and sewers of a bustling city is just as valid a concept as any other, learning the magic of the forgotten, lost and the unloved; vermin, strays and the struggling plant-life of what small parks and greens have been allowed to flourish there.. Such a character turning their abilities to a life of crime seems only fitting.


More or less the entire concept for my Urchin druid, Weasel. Grew up as a war refugee in the slums of a major city, and received his training from a fellow refugee, an ancient druid whose grove had been destroyed. Weasel got in the habit of using his skills to steal to support his family and little community; when he got older and they were no longer depending on him, he found that old habits die hard.

[8wGremlin]

More or less the entire concept for my Urchin druid, Weasel. Grew up as a war refugee in the slums of a major city, and received his training from a fellow refugee, an ancient druid whose grove had been destroyed. Weasel got in the habit of using his skills to steal to support his family and little community; when he got older and they were no longer depending on him, he found that old habits die hard.

OMG that is my character, even the name is the same... wow, great minds.

[Knaight]

I strongly disagree. The scenario writers should know the purpose in order to write one properly, and the players should know the point too. It's not a blind trial, it's a contest.

The purpose is a heist scenario for one PC - more information than that can skew the results, by designing scenarios that specifically counter druids or rogues and thus throw off the understanding.

[Unoriginal]

The purpose is a heist scenario for one PC - more information than that can skew the results, by designing scenarios that specifically counter druids or rogues and thus throw off the understanding.

If you don't trust people to be fair...

[Knaight]

If you don't trust people to be fair...

This isn't about intentional dishonesty or similar - this is about the influence of subconscious bias. There's a reason that double blinding is standard in scientific research, and it's not to prevent actual fraud (actual fraud bypasses it easily, just claim you did double blinding while fabricating the rest of your data).

[Daithi]

I'm a big fan of the Druid Thief. I'd like to point out that at higher levels the druid is no slouch either.

One thing they are really good at is finding that special object to steal. If you don't know where the stuff worth stealing is located then what good are you?

Option #1
Locate Object only has a 1,000' range for 10 min., but you can use Wind Walk to travel at 300' a round and search a sq. mile in under 10 minutes.

Option #2
Scrying to spy on an object or a person that has something you want to steal. Now use Find Path to get the quickest path to that location.

How does the Rogue find that magic item, cache of jewels, etc? Thieves Cant?

Another question, how does the Rogue get passed all those magical locks/traps? Arcane Lock, Glyph of Warding, Guards and Wards, Nystul's Magic Aura, Symbol, Forbiddance, etc. His lock picking tools suck at getting passed these locks/traps typically used to protect the really good stuff. The Druid has Dispell Magic. This is a huge advantage -- especially when a high level casting of Dispell Magic is needed.

The Druid is also better at finding traps as well. He can use the Find Traps spell, but he can also use WIS (Perception) checks as well. The Druid is going to max out their WIS, whereas a Rogue is unlikely to do so. The Druid would have a +5 WIS bonus, could take something like the Observant Feat for another +5, Proficiency adds +2 to +6 depending on level, a magic item like Rod of Alertness would add another +5. He simply walks into the room and knows where the Traps are located. (The Rogue does get Expertise, but I'd take a 1 level dip in Rogue just for the Expertise.)

[Renbot]

"Norbert, lookit dat."

"Lookit what, Dav?"

"It's one-a dem cat burglars."

"How d'ya reckon?"

"The magic thingum lit up, so we gots probable paws."

"Let's tail him."

Awesome. Just...awesome

[odigity]

"You choose whether your equipment falls to the ground in your space, merges into your new form, or is worn by it" Pickup the 40 pound statue & wildshape into a mouse merging the statue into my form.

Exactly. Hard to imagine anyone but a druid successfully burgling a large statue, or a chandelier, or large wind chime... :) (without a bag of holding, obviously)

I assume you're only limited by your encumbrance figure, which now makes Strength a little more useful - you can only burgle what you can lift.

[sophontteks]

easy... "You choose whether your equipment falls to the ground in your space, merges into your new form, or is worn by it" Pickup the 40 pound statue & wildshape into a mouse merging the statue into my form.

Also a good way to escape shackles, ropes, chains, and cuffs. The druid can wildshape and choose for them to fall to the ground.

[Unoriginal]

Exactly. Hard to imagine anyone but a druid successfully burgling a large statue, or a chandelier, or large wind chime...

Large statues, chandeliers and wind chime hardly constitute equipment.

[hymer]

Large statues, chandeliers and wind chime hardly constitute equipment.
You'd write those on the back of you sheet, rather than under 'Equipment'? :smallwink:
DM's call, obviously, but I think the intent is clear enough.