Forcing a resurrection

[heavyfuel]

Is there a way to force a soul into coming back?

Or maybe a way to fool it into thinking you are an ally. A DC 70 Bluff check might work, but that's a lot for someone who isn't investing heavily on the skill.

Edit: My plan is to force dead creatures to come back so I can kill them again using the Putrefaction spell (DrM300, pg 56) and get a loyal zombie and ghost with their stats

[Zanos]

You could animate it as a different undead, then command it to accept a ressurection.

[BowStreetRunner]

You could animate it as a different undead, then command it to accept a ressurection.
Animating a corpse and commanding it isn't going to have any influence over the spirit or soul, however. So maybe the Raise Ghost spell from Ghostwalk?

And then even if you manage that, you can't normally resurrect an undead unless it has been destroyed, in which case the command would end with the destruction of its target.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Animating a corpse and commanding it isn't going to have any influence over the spirit or soul, however. So maybe the Raise Ghost spell from Ghostwalk?

And then even if you manage that, you can't normally resurrect an undead unless it has been destroyed, in which case the command would end with the destruction of its target.

But you would be able to convince him with less magical means. It's tricking more than forcing, but with a convincing enough illusion of their missing wife, or a good bluff about a job their master left unfinished, or a forgery of a document explaining they've been granted amnesty, or you paying a red dragon really well to pretend it has eaten you, the main threat to this person, you might get somewhere.

By normal use of resurrection I don't think you get to send any sort of message, so it's an improvement.

Or maybe you can use miracle or wish as some sort of epic resurrection instead. Who knows, the DM might go for it.

[Telonius]

If the soul in question is on the Lower Planes, a mean enough Demon or Devil could probably "convince" it to accept a Resurrection. You might even be able to pitch it to the Devils as an additional way of harvesting souls. "Hey, no need to worry. If you sign your soul on the dotted line, it's not a completely sure thing that you'll be in Baator for all eternity. We do have a rental agreement with the Necromancers' Guild, so it's possible you won't actually spend that much time in the Lower Planes."

[Uncle Pine]

Is there a way to make a soul unconscious to make use of the fact that "Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing"?

[heavyfuel]

Is there any way to communicate with a soul? If yes, then Disguise combined with Bluff/Diplomacy can work


Is there a way to make a soul unconscious to make use of the fact that "Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing"?

Are souls even considered creatures?

[Uncle Pine]

Is there a way to make a soul unconscious to make use of the fact that "Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing"?

Are souls even considered creatures?

I'm not sure, but I felt it was worth mentioning in case someone knew better or recalled an obscure mention in some book.

[heavyfuel]

I'm not sure, but I felt it was worth mentioning in case someone knew better or recalled an obscure mention in some book.

Fair enough. Do you know of any way to communicate with a soul?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Plane shift to its afterlife, find it, and Diplomacize it into accepting a rez. Alternately, knock it unconscious and then rez it.

[BowStreetRunner]

Plane shift to its afterlife, find it, and Diplomacize it into accepting a rez. Alternately, knock it unconscious and then rez it.
You make it sound so easy, too! LMAO This sounds to me like a plot seed for a very long and very involved campaign. It's certainly not something you just 'do'.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You make it sound so easy, too! LMAO This sounds to me like a plot seed for a very long and very involved campaign. It's certainly not something you just 'do'.Sure, if you're a muggle. All it'd take for a wizard would be a few spells (or at lower levels, a few scrolls).

[Yogibear41]

My DM told me that in 1st edition if you cast raise dead on someone, they didn't have a choice, they came back. Unless of course their deity stopped it from happening or something like that.

I know that doesn't really help you but maybe you can swing some sort of homebrew spell or something. With a basis on the old spell.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If cost isn't an issue, wish or gate could pull them to you, whereupon you then whack them with a herring sap until they're unconscious. Then you rez 'em.

[heavyfuel]

Sure, if you're a muggle. All it'd take for a wizard would be a few spells (or at lower levels, a few scrolls).

Unfortunately, Druids dont have as much versatility without Shapechange cheese (which I dont want to use)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Unfortunately, Druids dont have as much versatility without Shapechange cheese (which I dont want to use)Spellcasting services from a friendly (or at least semi-willing) wizard.

[icefractal]

Sure, if you're a muggle. All it'd take for a wizard would be a few spells (or at lower levels, a few scrolls).
I don't think it's quite that trivial. Sure, you can Plane Shift to the appropriate plane easily enough, but if souls were left unguarded like that then they would have been taken or corrupted already.

Now yeah, if you're a high-level Wizard you can probably smash your way through a typical celestial/demonic/whatever patrol without too much trouble, but it will involve making some serious enemies (up to and including gods, depending on the setting; in FR this would be a direct challenge to at least one of them) unless you can cover your trail extremely well.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Greater teleport is a thing, you know.

[heavyfuel]

Greater teleport is a thing, you know.

So are dimensionally locked places

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Must be an awfully important soul to have all of these protections placed around to guard it as soon as it spawned in the afterlife. Squadrons of powerful outsiders, massively large numbers of dimension lock spells, and, I'm assuming, lots of protections against divinations. Turns out that the druid's pet Fluffy was more than he let on.

[Inevitability]

A deity of Life can do it (unless opposed by an even stronger deity) using the Gift of Life (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#giftOfLife) ability.

[TheFamilarRaven]

Spellcasting services from a friendly (or at least semi-willing) wizard.

And if all you find are uncooperative wizards, just knock them unconscious. Because as we know, unconscious creatures are always willing.

[Khedrac]

If cost isn't an issue, wish or gate could pull them to you, whereupon you then whack them with a herring sap until they're unconscious. Then you rez 'em.
Since the soul is now a petitioner this one doesn't work - petitioners cannot be removed from their plane by any means.

You will have to go to it/her/him.

[ksbsnowowl]

Since the soul is now a petitioner this one doesn't work - petitioners cannot be removed from their plane by any means.

You will have to go to it/her/him.

D&D 3e canon allows for Wish to remove petitioners from their normal plane, and even give them back the skills they had in life. It's the driving plot point of Lord of the Iron Fortress. This obviously falls into the DM fiat "You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous," clause of Wish, but as per D&D canon, it works.


Are souls even considered creatures?Yes, they are Petitioners. See Manual of the Planes.

One of the best ways to trick a soul into being resurrected is to trick a friendly being into resurrecting it.



Revivification against One’s Will: A soul cannot be returned to life if it does not wish to be. A soul knows the name, alignment, and patron deity (if any) of the character attempting to revive it and may refuse to return on that basis. For example, if Alhandra the paladin is slain and a high priest of Nerull (god of death) grabs her body, Alhandra probably does not wish to be raised from the dead by him. Any attempts he makes to revive her automatically fail. If the evil cleric wants to revive Alhandra to interrogate her, he needs to find some way to trick her soul, such as duping a good cleric into raising her and then capturing her once she’s alive again.

You can do this via subterfuge (Bluff) or force (Domination). It still doesn't force the dead PC into accepting being brought back, but if the player isn't metagaming, and his PC's soul knows a priest of his same church is the one casting the Raise Dead spell, then he's likely to accept.

[heavyfuel]

Yes, they are Petitioners. See Manual of the Planes.

One of the best ways to trick a soul into being resurrected is to trick a friendly being is resurrecting it.

Thanks for clearing up the doubts regarding creature status.

And yeah, I'm wondering if there's another way to do it.


A deity of Life can do it (unless opposed by an even stronger deity) using the Gift of Life (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#giftOfLife) ability.

Hmm, now only to convice a deity of life to revive a person for my Evil druid to usurp their spirit for personal vengeance hahaha


Must be an awfully important soul to have all of these protections placed around to guard it as soon as it spawned in the afterlife. Squadrons of powerful outsiders, massively large numbers of dimension lock spells, and, I'm assuming, lots of protections against divinations. Turns out that the druid's pet Fluffy was more than he let on.

If you're playing a game where plane shift and greater teleport are the obvious methods of problem solving, it's presumable the usual defenses against such tactics are also at play.

Not to mention, I don't need/want to do this for a single soul, but I want to do it on a semi-consistent basis.

[Bohandas]

Animating a corpse and commanding it isn't going to have any influence over the spirit or soul, however. So maybe the Raise Ghost spell from Ghostwalk?

And then even if you manage that, you can't normally resurrect an undead unless it has been destroyed, in which case the command would end with the destruction of its target.

You can create shadows, wraiths, and specters with create greater undead

[Necroticplague]

Not to mention, I don't need/want to do this for a single soul, but I want to do it on a semi-consistent basis.

You might wanna reconsider this. While one could probably get away with it a handful of times, the owners of the souls on the lower planes are gonna be miffed at you stealing from them, and the necromancery would already put you on the upper planes bad list even before you weakened the forces of Good directly with your theft. Doing this too often seems like a good way to end up on the bad end of every type of outsider of alignments save slaads.

[Inevitability]

Hmm, now only to convice a deity of life to revive a person for my Evil druid to usurp their spirit for personal vengeance hahaha

There's a few Evil life deities if it helps. Luthic comes to mind.

[Wraith]

Unfortunately, Druids dont have as much versatility without Shapechange cheese (which I dont want to use)

You could instead become a Planar Shepherd of the Plane where the soul is kept? You get Plane Shift as a class feature, immunity to the effects of the Plane and you can easily disguise yourself as a native.

Become a Planar Shepherd of Baator, Shapeshift into a reasonably impressive Devil, find your Petitioner and then offer him a deal. "Look, you want to escape Literal Hell, and I need a guy on the outside who can get things done; I just happen to know a guy with a spare resurrection spell, and just maybe he comes calling for you...?"

Use appropriate changes to the pitch for differently aligned afterlives, but in principle it'd still work. All you'd need is to pick an appropriate disguise and then roll a decent diplomacy/bluff - including the return trip, it's doable at level 8 if I remember correctly. :smallsmile:

[Jack_Simth]

There's a clause in the undead type (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType) that changes how Resurrection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resurrection.htm) and it's True (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm) brother work:

Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead. (emphasis added)

So if you apply a Resurrection spell directly to an undead, the undead becomes a living creature again. Just animate your mark as a Zombie before applying Resurrection, and you're set - because it's no longer using the Resurrection mechanics, but the undead type mechanics.

[BowStreetRunner]

There's a clause in the undead type (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType) that changes how Resurrection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resurrection.htm) and it's True (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm) brother work:
(emphasis added)

So if you apply a Resurrection spell directly to an undead, the undead becomes a living creature again. Just animate your mark as a Zombie before applying Resurrection, and you're set - because it's no longer using the Resurrection mechanics, but the undead type mechanics.

Except that the Resurrection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resurrection.htm) spell you linked to right there states "You can resurrect someone...who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed...undead creatures can’t be resurrected."

What this means is:

If you use resurrection or true resurrection on an undead who has not been destroyed, it fails.
If you use either on an undead who has been destroyed, you will not restore the undead creature. (No getting your vampire back by resurrecting it.)
If you use these on an undead who has been destroyed, you can resurrect the original creature before it became an undead.

[heavyfuel]

You might wanna reconsider this. While one could probably get away with it a handful of times, the owners of the souls on the lower planes are gonna be miffed at you stealing from them, and the necromancery would already put you on the upper planes bad list even before you weakened the forces of Good directly with your theft. Doing this too often seems like a good way to end up on the bad end of every type of outsider of alignments save slaads.

Ha! Fair enough! It's kind of flattering they might put their differences aside because I'm the "common enemy"


There's a few Evil life deities if it helps. Luthic comes to mind.

I'll check with the DM regarding who's the deity of life in his homebrew cosmology


You could instead become a Planar Shepherd

Planar Shepherd was banned. I can't even get mad, considering it is pretty sensible decision.


There's a clause in the undead type (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType) that changes how Resurrection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resurrection.htm) and it's True (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm) brother work:
(emphasis added)

So if you apply a Resurrection spell directly to an undead, the undead becomes a living creature again. Just animate your mark as a Zombie before applying Resurrection, and you're set - because it's no longer using the Resurrection mechanics, but the undead type mechanics.

Hey! Now that's a very nice find! This could definitely work! Thanks!

EDIT: Wait, no. I got too excited too early


Except that the Resurrection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resurrection.htm) spell you linked to right there states "You can resurrect someone...who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed...undead creatures can’t be resurrected."

What this means is:

If you use resurrection or true resurrection on an undead who has not been destroyed, it fails.
If you use either on an undead who has been destroyed, you will not restore the undead creature. (No getting your vampire back by resurrecting it.)
If you use these on an undead who has been destroyed, you can resurrect the original creature before it became an undead.

[icefractal]

Greater teleport is a thing, you know.It's a thing that many outsiders, notably demons, get at-will just for existing.

A plane that doesn't have any answer to that will in short order not have any souls /left/ for you to steal.

[Jack_Simth]

Except that the Resurrection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resurrection.htm) spell you linked to right there states "You can resurrect someone...who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed...undead creatures can’t be resurrected."

What this means is:

If you use resurrection or true resurrection on an undead who has not been destroyed, it fails.
If you use either on an undead who has been destroyed, you will not restore the undead creature. (No getting your vampire back by resurrecting it.)
If you use these on an undead who has been destroyed, you can resurrect the original creature before it became an undead.

Funny thing... lots of creatures have spells that work outside the spell's mechanics. Golems (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm) are the classic example (Earthquake isn't normally cast on a creature), but there are others (like the Earth Elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm#earthElemental)).

True Resurrection doesn't require anything of the body, and Resurrection only requires a fragment. What the bit in Resurrection means is:


If you use resurrection or true resurrection on an undead who has not been destroyed when the undead is elsewhere, it fails.
If you use either on an undead who has been destroyed, you will not restore the undead creature. (No getting your vampire back by resurrecting it.)
If you use these on an undead who has been destroyed, you can resurrect the original creature before it became an undead.

The type listing means that if you apply (True) Resurrection directly to the undead, you get the original living being back. There's no contradiction between the two, so whichever applies better is the one that applies. Apply Resurrection to an active undead? You get the base creature back.

[Mordaedil]

I would say you can just treat Animate Dead as a "raise dead" and create undead/greater create undead as resurrection and true resurrection respectively regarding undead without really tipping the balance of your campaign any. Just increase the cost of the black onyx gem required for greater create undead.

I know the spells don't really work like that, but I think it's worth the stretch and fits the theme without starting to look for loopholes in resurrection and true resurrection, which are thematically inappropriate.

[Zanos]

Animating a corpse and commanding it isn't going to have any influence over the spirit or soul, however. So maybe the Raise Ghost spell from Ghostwalk?

And then even if you manage that, you can't normally resurrect an undead unless it has been destroyed, in which case the command would end with the destruction of its target.
Just pick an intelligent undead.

[Telonius]

Spell Compendium and Libris Mortis do have the "Revive Undead" spell. It's usually a Sorcerer/Wizard spell, but also part of the Deathbound domain spell list. As a Domain spell, it's 5th-level spell (the same level as Raise Dead). There's no equivalent for Resurrection and True Resurrection, but if it's fine for one I don't see why it couldn't be fine for the rest.