Advice for Paladin Feats & Ability Scores

[FoxDropz]

Hello guys,

Im finishing up my Paladin Vengeance Build, I just need some help picking my Feats/ASIs (PAM, GWM, Sentinel).
*IMPORTANT: The campaign will end around level 10. So I need to figure out what I should take on levels 1,4 and 8.

My Paladin's Race will be Variant Human and he'll take Oath of Vengeance. He will have a Soldier background. The main attribute will be STR.
Fighting Style will be Great Weapon Fighting, because my DM will allow rerolls on Smites.
We are gonna use Standard Array (15-14-13-12-10-8).
The 3 Feats that I find interesting to get are Polearm Master, Great Weapon Fighting and/or Sentinel.

At Level 1: Feat or ASI?
At Level 4: Feat or ASI?
At Level 8: Feat or ASI?

Str: ?
Dex: ?
Con: ?
Int: ?
Wis: ?
Cha: ?

What do you guys suggest and why?

[Xihirli]

I suppose I'll address the stat allotment.
Standard Array (15-14-13-12-10-8).
Vuman (2 +1s)

Str: A 15 and a +1 here give you a 16 in your main stat.
Dex: Important save you don't have proficiency in. Might want your 12 here.
Con: You can either put your 13 here with your +1 or your 14 without.
Int: You can put your 10 or even 12 here if you want Knowledge (Religion) for flavor, but if you don't this is safe to dump to 8. Don't fight an Ilithid.
Wis: You have proficiency here and will eventually be able to add your CHA bonus to all saving throws. You don't need this as a save nearly as much as everyone else does. A 10 doesn't hurt you too much here but you don't want a penalty because of Perception.
Cha: You can either put your 13 here with your +1 or your 14 without.

Advised total:
16 STR
12 DEX
14 CON
8 INT
10 WIS
14 CHA
Disregard some or all of this if it conflicts with your character concept. DEX paladins are totally viable but your questions about feats led me to believe you weren't interested in making one. If you want to dump DEX in favor of one of the non-CHA mental stats you can, though initiative suffers.

As far as ASIs go increasing your strength and charisma are both great options. If you're the tank, you might want to take Toughness as your level 1 feat or maybe Heavy Armor Master to push your strength up and give you more resilience at early levels. Great Weapon Master and Polearm Master are really nice feats to get for free as a Vuman.

[Angelalex242]

I really recommend Heavy Armor Master at level 1. +1 Str gives you your 16 and the DR 3 will follow you forever.

At level 4, Sentinel. Don't want those evildoers running away, right?

At level 8, Mage Slayer. Cause sometimes evildoers cast spells...

[Willie the Duck]

First of all, I am predicating this on the idea that you are asking for strategic advise. Any of these should be over-ruled the instant they conflict with fun.
For stats, I would go:
STR 16 DEX 10 CON 14 INT 8 WIS 12 CHA 14
(although Dex and Wis are a real toss-up. The one you take 2 less on is the one you will fail a save on at the most inopportune time)
You are clearly a frontliner, so you need strength more than charisma.
As to ASI/Feat choice, two questions: 1) how likely is a magical polearm going to show up, given that you might choose to play a polearm-centric character, and 2) is the group going to have a squishy rear-line (wizards, lore bards, and the like)? If the answer to 1) is 'not much,' perhaps don't focus on PAM (maybe don't even take it. If the answer to 2) is yes, take Sentinel early, otherwise don't (and maybe don't take it. Any of them you don't take, take +2 Charisma first and +2 Strength only if you get to 8th level, don't feel the need for other feats, and haven't run into a strength boosting magic item.
Gauntlets of ogre power/belts of giant strength are not common, but they aren't 'never really going to run into'-level of obscure. Given how many other things you can do with your ASI slots, boosting strength takes a back burner for a 2handed fighting paladin.

An alternative is to go sword&board, dueling (or defensive, or protection) style, not take feats, and get 18 strength, 18 charisma, and let your smiting do the damage boosting. It works better for paladins than other martials because of the extra damage they can do through smiting (otherwise PAM/GWM/Sentinel is really a big deal).

[FoxDropz]

I suppose I'll address the stat allotment.
Standard Array (15-14-13-12-10-8).
Vuman (2 +1s)

Str: A 15 and a +1 here give you a 16 in your main stat.
Dex: Important save you don't have proficiency in. Might want your 12 here.
Con: You can either put your 13 here with your +1 or your 14 without.
Int: You can put your 10 or even 12 here if you want Knowledge (Religion) for flavor, but if you don't this is safe to dump to 8. Don't fight an Ilithid.
Wis: You have proficiency here and will eventually be able to add your CHA bonus to all saving throws. You don't need this as a save nearly as much as everyone else does. A 10 doesn't hurt you too much here but you don't want a penalty because of Perception.
Cha: You can either put your 13 here with your +1 or your 14 without.

Advised total:
16 STR
12 DEX
14 CON
8 INT
10 WIS
14 CHA
Disregard some or all of this if it conflicts with your character concept. DEX paladins are totally viable but your questions about feats led me to believe you weren't interested in making one. If you want to dump DEX in favor of one of the non-CHA mental stats you can, though initiative suffers.

As far as ASIs go increasing your strength and charisma are both great options. If you're the tank, you might want to take Toughness as your level 1 feat or maybe Heavy Armor Master to push your strength up and give you more resilience at early levels. Great Weapon Master and Polearm Master are really nice feats to get for free as a Vuman.

Yeah, that how I was intending to go for Ability scores! Im gonna dump INT, focus on STR and CHA. Im gonna be using Smite a lot too! Im more like a DPS Paladin than a Tank.


I really recommend Heavy Armor Master at level 1. +1 Str gives you your 16 and the DR 3 will follow you forever.

At level 4, Sentinel. Don't want those evildoers running away, right?

At level 8, Mage Slayer. Cause sometimes evildoers cast spells...

Im more like a DPS Paladin than a Tank. Thats why Im not focusing on feats like Heavy Armor Master. The ones that Im considering are Polearm Master, Great Weapon Master and Sentinel.

[Angelalex242]

Yeah, that how I was intending to go for Ability scores! Im gonna dump INT, focus on STR and CHA. Im gonna be using Smite a lot too! Im more like a DPS Paladin than a Tank.



Im more like a DPS Paladin than a Tank. Thats why Im not focusing on feats like Heavy Armor Master. The ones that Im considering are Polearm Master, Great Weapon Master and Sentinel.

Great Weapon Master actually works best with Devotion Paladins.

That said, if you're going to use a polearm, take polearm master right away at level 1, then take Sentinel at level 4.

I still recommend Mage Slayer at level 8. Cause it works with polearm master too.

[FoxDropz]

As to ASI/Feat choice, two questions: 1) how likely is a magical polearm going to show up, given that you might choose to play a polearm-centric character, and 2) is the group going to have a squishy rear-line (wizards, lore bards, and the like)? If the answer to 1) is 'not much,' perhaps don't focus on PAM (maybe don't even take it. If the answer to 2) is yes, take Sentinel early, otherwise don't (and maybe don't take it. Any of them you don't take, take +2 Charisma first and +2 Strength only if you get to 8th level, don't feel the need for other feats, and haven't run into a strength boosting magic item.


Well, It is possible that a Magical Polearm show up, or any magical item that boosts STR or CHA. Because our DM really likes to reward the group and he pays atention to our builds.
And yes my group is kinda squishy so far.. There is a paladin (me), a rogue, a ranger, a monk and a druid.

[FoxDropz]

Great Weapon Master actually works best with Devotion Paladins.

That said, if you're going to use a polearm, take polearm master right away at level 1, then take Sentinel at level 4.

I still recommend Mage Slayer at level 8. Cause it works with polearm master too.

yeah, I definitly wanna use a Polearm as my weapon and have a DPS role

[CTurbo]

The question is, how long are you going to be ok with having a 16 in Str and 14 in Cha? I can see taking PAM at level 1 of you're going for damage, but I would probably +2 Str and +2 Cha at levels 4 and 8.

Starting with Heavy Armor Mastery at level 1 also lets you start with Str 16 and Cha 16. You could take PAM at level 4 and either Sentinel or +2 Str at level 8.

The Paladin is a class that REALLY benefits from the ASIs. They are also very DPR heavy already so I would rather boost their staying power.

[FoxDropz]

The question is, how long are you going to be ok with having a 16 in Str and 14 in Cha? I can see taking PAM at level 1 of you're going for damage, but I would probably +2 Str and +2 Cha at levels 4 and 8.

Starting with Heavy Armor Mastery at level 1 also lets you start with Str 16 and Cha 16. You could take PAM at level 4 and either Sentinel or +2 Str at level 8.

The Paladin is a class that REALLY benefits from the ASIs. They are also very DPR heavy already so I would rather boost their staying power.

Would you just focus on 1 feat? And maybe change Race for example? Choose Half-elf instead of Variant Human?
or
lvl 1 grab a feat (Polearm or Great Weapon Master)
lvl 4 ASI
lvl 8 ASI

[Matrix_Walker]

I think you've got a handle on the stats...

If you are not married to the notion of Vengance Paladin, I also reccomend Devotion Paladin for a GWM/Polearm master. You will take down more tagets more effectively offsetting the -5 to hit with Sacred Weapon against all targets than you will with advantage against one per fight.

I would start with Pole Arm Master, to almost give you the feeling of having Extra Attack out of the gate as well as vastly increasing your chances to use your reaction for a lovely opportunity attack, Follow that with Great Weapon Master at 4, right after your Sacred Weapon and just before proficiency increases and you get your extra attack at 5.

If you are looking to deal lots of damage rather than Tank, Sentinel is just not a big priority. If that's the feat you like best to round it out, take it last.

[Willie the Duck]

Would you just focus on 1 feat? And maybe change Race for example? Choose Half-elf instead of Variant Human?
or
lvl 1 grab a feat (Polearm or Great Weapon Master)
lvl 4 ASI
lvl 8 ASI

If you are going to take an ASI, then you might as well take half-elf instead and get the +2 Cha along with more skills and darkvision.

A Paladin with just PAM to increase # of attacks and the rest of ASIs going to stats does swimmingly (and can nova a crazy amount of damage if needed).

[FoxDropz]

I think you've got a handle on the stats...

If you are not married to the notion of Vengance Paladin, I also reccomend Devotion Paladin for a GWM/Polearm master. You will take down more tagets more effectively offsetting the -5 to hit with Sacred Weapon against all targets than you will with advantage against one per fight.

I would start with Pole Arm Master, to almost give you the feeling of having Extra Attack out of the gate as well as vastly increasing your chances to use your reaction for a lovely opportunity attack, Follow that with Great Weapon Master at 4, right after your Sacred Weapon and just before proficiency increases and you get your extra attack at 5.

If you are looking to deal lots of damage rather than Tank, Sentinel is just not a big priority. If that's the feat you like best to round it out, take it last.

Got it. But Im really looking foward to roll as Oath of Vengeance. 3 Feats its a lot to sacrifice my ASIs. =S


If you are going to take an ASI, then you might as well take half-elf instead and get the +2 Cha along with more skills and darkvision.

A Paladin with just PAM to increase # of attacks and the rest of ASIs going to stats does swimmingly (and can nova a crazy amount of damage if needed).

Yeah, I mean.. Im really trying to min-max although Im kinda noob in RPG, just played a few times. Im dont mind using a Polearm, Greatsword or whatever, as long as I would do more damage or perform better in-combat. Cause that my whole objective, create a really strong Paladin for combats! Plus, I dont mind going Variant Human or Half-elf either, as long as that would be better for the build itself. :smallsmile:

[Willie the Duck]

Yeah, I mean.. Im really trying to min-max although Im kinda noob in RPG, just played a few times. Im dont mind using a Polearm, Greatsword or whatever, as long as I would do more damage or perform better in-combat. Cause that my whole objective, create a really strong Paladin for combats! Plus, I dont mind going Variant Human or Half-elf either, as long as that would be better for the build itself. :smallsmile:

Well, I suspect that that won't exactly make people shower you with accolades, but at least you know what you want. There's really not much more to say. Half elf has everything V. human does except the free ASI (and more). If you were going to use an ASI to get +2 CHA anyways, half-elf is more optimal. PAM, GWM, and Sentinel are all great great great feats for a melee-centric combat character. The only problems being that PAM pseudo-locks* you into polearm wielding, GWM pseudo-locks you into two handed fighting, and taking all 3 locks you into lower Strength and Charisma (both of which are awfully useful for a paladin of any type).
*You can obviously still use a rapier or bow or Morningstar, the feat selection will just be a suboptimal investment at that point.

I will point out, in case having played 'just played a few times' means that this is not obvious, that maximizing for DPS is good in 5e, but not as good as it is in some computer games or the like. A paladin is a nova class, and if you spend your spell slots in your first combat, you might feel rather underpowered for the rest of the game-day while events or the rest of your party (especially the short rest-recharging ones, like rogue, a monk and druid if it is a moon druid) keep you from recharging with a long rest.

[Nidgit]

I'd probably pass on Great Weapon Master. If your DM is allowing rerolls of Smites, you want to be hitting as much as possible to give yourself more smiting opportunities. GWM drops your accuracy and only gives you a bonus attack occasionally.

PAM and Sentinel are both great choices but I'd definitely lean Sentinel. If your ranger decides to front-line, I'd probably pick Sentinel for frequent opportunity attacks. Sentinel also nearly guarantees constant Sneak Attacks for your rogue and doesn't lock you in to a weapon. PAM is still great but faces some competition for your bonus action between CD, Misty Step, and Smite spells.

As other have said, HAM is a good option too, but if you're going down that route you might want to use point buy instead of standard array to better use that +1.

What I'd suggest:
Half-Elf for 16/12/14/8/10/16
Level 4 Sentinel
Level 8 STR+2

[FoxDropz]

Well, I suspect that that won't exactly make people shower you with accolades, but at least you know what you want. There's really not much more to say. Half elf has everything V. human does except the free ASI (and more). If you were going to use an ASI to get +2 CHA anyways, half-elf is more optimal. PAM, GWM, and Sentinel are all great great great feats for a melee-centric combat character. The only problems being that PAM pseudo-locks* you into polearm wielding, GWM pseudo-locks you into two handed fighting, and taking all 3 locks you into lower Strength and Charisma (both of which are awfully useful for a paladin of any type).
*You can obviously still use a rapier or bow or Morningstar, the feat selection will just be a suboptimal investment at that point.

I will point out, in case having played 'just played a few times' means that this is not obvious, that maximizing for DPS is good in 5e, but not as good as it is in some computer games or the like. A paladin is a nova class, and if you spend your spell slots in your first combat, you might feel rather underpowered for the rest of the game-day while events or the rest of your party (especially the short rest-recharging ones, like rogue, a monk and druid if it is a moon druid) keep you from recharging with a long rest.

Got it! Its really hard thing to choose the build by the way haha cause all these scenarios with different feats/races/etc look really strong and fun, but I guess it comes down to what fits my playstyle.. but I see your point. And about the spells, Im gonna try to save the good stuff for the "big" enemies lol Thanks a lot for all the info provided!


I'd probably pass on Great Weapon Master. If your DM is allowing rerolls of Smites, you want to be hitting as much as possible to give yourself more smiting opportunities. GWM drops your accuracy and only gives you a bonus attack occasionally.

PAM and Sentinel are both great choices but I'd definitely lean Sentinel. If your ranger decides to front-line, I'd probably pick Sentinel for frequent opportunity attacks. Sentinel also nearly guarantees constant Sneak Attacks for your rogue and doesn't lock you in to a weapon. PAM is still great but faces some competition for your bonus action between CD, Misty Step, and Smite spells.

As other have said, HAM is a good option too, but if you're going down that route you might want to use point buy instead of standard array to better use that +1.

What I'd suggest:
Half-Elf for 16/12/14/8/10/16
Level 4 Sentinel
Level 8 STR+2

Thats a interesting way to build, but would be more like a utility paladin, right? setting up oportunities for the other party members..

[Nidgit]

Thats a interesting way to build, but would be more like a utility paladin, right? setting up oportunities for the other party members..
I don't know that I'd call it utility so much as synergistic with the rest fo your party. PAM allows for more damage on your turn and a couple extra opportunity attacks, which is definitely nothing to sneeze at. Sentinel offers very consistent opportunity attacks with some dangerous effects. Combined with the Vengeance Paladin's relatively high mobility, Sentinel allows you to pin down whichever enemy you want and ruin their day. A fellow frontliner ups your chances for an opportunity attack and eventually benefits from your aura, while characters like your monk and especially your rogue benefit from some holding aggro to enable sniping/skirmishing.

You could also go VHuman (Sentinel), Str+2, Str+2 if you'd rather max your Strength. The Sentinel/PAM combo is always in the table too.

[FoxDropz]

I don't know that I'd call it utility so much as synergistic with the rest fo your party. PAM allows for more damage on your turn and a couple extra opportunity attacks, which is definitely nothing to sneeze at. Sentinel offers very consistent opportunity attacks with some dangerous effects. Combined with the Vengeance Paladin's relatively high mobility, Sentinel allows you to pin down whichever enemy you want and ruin their day. A fellow frontliner ups your chances for an opportunity attack and eventually benefits from your aura, while characters like your monk and especially your rogue benefit from some holding aggro to enable sniping/skirmishing.

You could also go VHuman (Sentinel), Str+2, Str+2 if you'd rather max your Strength. The Sentinel/PAM combo is always in the table too.

The only drawback of Sentinel is that it interferes it interferes PAM which also your polearm master which also grants you an attack if someone enters your reach. though this is likely only to happen once per fight. right?

[CTurbo]

Vhuman vs Half-Elf

From levels 1-3, the Vhuman is superior since you start with a feat.

From levels 4-20, the Half-Elf is better because the stats and feats will even out and all that'll be left is the Half-Elf's darkvision and extra skills.

vhuman starting stats at level 1 with PAM will be 16 Str and 14 Cha and at level 4 you take +2 to Cha
Half-Elf starting stats at level 1 are 16 Str and 16 Cha and at level 4 you take PAM

Both races after 4 give you the same 16 Str, 16 Cha, and PAM. The Half-Elf is just better. That's an example but the same thing is true if you would prefer 18 Str and 14 Cha after level 4 except the Half-Elf would be more well rounded with an extra +2 to a lesser stat since you'd put the 12 in Cha from the start. Your 14 would go to Dex or Wis. Either would be useful.

[Angelalex242]

Vhuman vs Half-Elf

From levels 1-3, the Vhuman is superior since you start with a feat.

From levels 4-20, the Half-Elf is better because the stats and feats will even out and all that'll be left is the Half-Elf's darkvision and extra skills.

vhuman starting stats at level 1 with PAM will be 16 Str and 14 Cha and at level 4 you take +2 to Cha
Half-Elf starting stats at level 1 are 16 Str and 16 Cha and at level 4 you take PAM

Both races after 4 give you the same 16 Str, 16 Cha, and PAM. The Half-Elf is just better. That's an example but the same thing is true if you would prefer 18 Str and 14 Cha after level 4 except the Half-Elf would be more well rounded with an extra +2 to a lesser stat since you'd put the 12 in Cha from the start. Your 14 would go to Dex or Wis. Either would be useful.

Not necessarily.

The Vuman could ignore stats and go PAM at level 1 and Sentinel at level 4, and the half elf can't catch up on feats till level 8, at which point the vuman can take Mage Slayer.

[CTurbo]

Not necessarily.

The Vuman could ignore stats and go PAM at level 1 and Sentinel at level 4, and the half elf can't catch up on feats till level 8, at which point the vuman can take Mage Slayer.

True if you're ok with having 16 Str and 14 Cha all the way through level 11. I would not be ok with that. I would never feat so much with a Pally. ASIs are too important for this MAD class.

[Angelalex242]

True if you're ok with having 16 Str and 14 Cha all the way through level 11. I would not be ok with that. I would never feat so much with a Pally. ASIs are too important for this MAD class.

It is for this reason I recommend 14 STR 16 Cha.

Gauntlets of Ogre Power are an AL legal item.

But there is no corresponding Cloak of Charisma. At least not in the DMG.

[georgie_leech]

It is for this reason I recommend 14 STR 16 Cha.

Gauntlets of Ogre Power are an AL legal item.

But there is no corresponding Cloak of Charisma. At least not in the DMG.

They may be AL Legal, but they are not AL Guaranteed. Building around a specific item always runs I to the twin cons of needing to play before you get said item, and the risk of not getting the item at all.

[CTurbo]

Yeah and 14 Str drops you down to Medium Armor which seriously hurts your AC since you're not going to have more than a 10-12 in Dex.

From my experiences, Paladins usually have a huge target on their heads and are usually the most attacked character of all. Having a Paladin with a reasonable Con fighting makes the entire party a LOT better. A Paladin dealing out exceptional damage would be even moreso targeted. One of the class's most OP features is Aura of Protection which keys off of Cha. A Pally with low Cha that gets put down easily is not going to be a big help. A high Cha tankier than normal Paladin is going to have a much greater impact on the party and most encounters.

I've made the mistake of building a highly DPR optimized GWF/GWM 20 Str Vengeance Paladin and I found myself on my back a lot. The party Cleric had to waste a lot of resources healing me all the time when he could have been doing something more useful.

My HAM + Res(Con) 18 Cha Vengeance Pally had WAY more staying power and still never had a problem dealing damage. You pretty much have the option of dealing an extra 2d8 per attack up to 4 times at level 5 and an extra 3d8 2 twice. After several encounters without long rest and the group is low on resources, your Auras are always on and working 100%.

I'm usually all aboard the "best defense is a better offense" train except when it comes to Paladins. The last thing they really need help with is more offense IMO.

[FoxDropz]

Vhuman vs Half-Elf

From levels 1-3, the Vhuman is superior since you start with a feat.

From levels 4-20, the Half-Elf is better because the stats and feats will even out and all that'll be left is the Half-Elf's darkvision and extra skills.

vhuman starting stats at level 1 with PAM will be 16 Str and 14 Cha and at level 4 you take +2 to Cha
Half-Elf starting stats at level 1 are 16 Str and 16 Cha and at level 4 you take PAM

Both races after 4 give you the same 16 Str, 16 Cha, and PAM. The Half-Elf is just better. That's an example but the same thing is true if you would prefer 18 Str and 14 Cha after level 4 except the Half-Elf would be more well rounded with an extra +2 to a lesser stat since you'd put the 12 in Cha from the start. Your 14 would go to Dex or Wis. Either would be useful.

I like where you are going with this. Half-elf seems better indeed. Especially in my case that the campaign wil end at Level 10. I cant have a lot of feats since I would only be grabbing stuff at levels 1, 4 and 8.


Yeah and 14 Str drops you down to Medium Armor which seriously hurts your AC since you're not going to have more than a 10-12 in Dex.

From my experiences, Paladins usually have a huge target on their heads and are usually the most attacked character of all. Having a Paladin with a reasonable Con fighting makes the entire party a LOT better. A Paladin dealing out exceptional damage would be even moreso targeted. One of the class's most OP features is Aura of Protection which keys off of Cha. A Pally with low Cha that gets put down easily is not going to be a big help. A high Cha tankier than normal Paladin is going to have a much greater impact on the party and most encounters.

I've made the mistake of building a highly DPR optimized GWF/GWM 20 Str Vengeance Paladin and I found myself on my back a lot. The party Cleric had to waste a lot of resources healing me all the time when he could have been doing something more useful.

My HAM + Res(Con) 18 Cha Vengeance Pally had WAY more staying power and still never had a problem dealing damage. You pretty much have the option of dealing an extra 2d8 per attack up to 4 times at level 5 and an extra 3d8 2 twice. After several encounters without long rest and the group is low on resources, your Auras are always on and working 100%.

I'm usually all aboard the "best defense is a better offense" train except when it comes to Paladins. The last thing they really need help with is more offense IMO.

Another thing is that my party is really squishy and we have no full tank or full healer. Its a paladin (me), a Rogue, a Druid, a Ranger and a Monk. Do you think I should roll another Oath? I really like vengeance. Should I roll another feats maybe? Should I be more of a Tank instead of DPR? Tell what do you think.

[Blood of Gaea]

Another thing is that my party is really squishy and we have no full tank or full healer. Its a paladin (me), a Rogue, a Druid, a Ranger and a Monk. Do you think I should roll another Oath? I really like vengeance. Should I roll another feats maybe? Should I be more of a Tank instead of DPR? Tell what do you think.
If you want to fill a missing role in your party because you would enjoy it, that's good. But never play a PC you don't want to, even if it means your party is lacking in a role.

[FoxDropz]

If you want to fill a missing role in your party because you would enjoy it, that's good. But never play a PC you don't want to, even if it means your party is lacking in a role.

Yeah I see your point. There are 2 things that I like about a PC. Being able to do a lot of damage (big damage or damage on a lot of foes) and being "unkillable". That pretty much how I like my PCs, its kinda of a dumb statement.. but idk if it helps lol :smalltongue:

[CTurbo]

I like where you are going with this. Half-elf seems better indeed. Especially in my case that the campaign wil end at Level 10. I cant have a lot of feats since I would only be grabbing stuff at levels 1, 4 and 8.



Another thing is that my party is really squishy and we have no full tank or full healer. Its a paladin (me), a Rogue, a Druid, a Ranger and a Monk. Do you think I should roll another Oath? I really like vengeance. Should I roll another feats maybe? Should I be more of a Tank instead of DPR? Tell what do you think.


I dunno man. I think your party may benefit more from a protector Paladin than a DPR Paladin. It's tough being the only tank by default of being the toughest character. I would definitely build around survivability and staying power.

Is the Ranger melee or ranged? Moon or Land Druid? I'm trying to figure out who you are going to have on the front line with you. If everybody else is ranged focused, but you and the Monk which is super mobile, you may want to stay near your whole party all the time.

Is there any way you can choose point buy instead of standard array?



I always like my characters tougher than normal.

[MrWesson22]

One other thing to consider - if you are going GWM, bless will add more dpr for yourself than one extra smite will (not to mention the other added benefits for yourself and the added dpr and saves for 2 teammates). Turning 1 GWM miss into a hit is worth d10+str+10 damage, which is obviously a hell of a lot more than 2d8.

[FoxDropz]

I dunno man. I think your party may benefit more from a protector Paladin than a DPR Paladin. It's tough being the only tank by default of being the toughest character. I would definitely build around survivability and staying power.

Is the Ranger melee or ranged? Moon or Land Druid? I'm trying to figure out who you are going to have on the front line with you. If everybody else is ranged focused, but you and the Monk which is super mobile, you may want to stay near your whole party all the time.

Is there any way you can choose point buy instead of standard array?



I always like my characters tougher than normal.

Well, the ranger said that he would go for Beastmaster. The monk said he would go for that 4 elements "avatar" caster style. The druid doesnt know if he is gonna be a druid anymore, but he is probably gonna go for a caster class. The DM said that he doesnt care about party composition, just pick whatever you feel like playing and have fun.

Edit: oh and the DM said that its only standard array. We cant point buy

[Blood of Gaea]

Something to remember, with Aura of Protection, Healing Hands, and heavy armor, you're already a tank, going for a different build just swaps offensive power for more defense, it's not like a Paladin is ever going to make a bad front line. Combined with a Ranger (+ companion) and a Monk, you're not looking to bad. You might see if your caster is willing to do a bit of summoning as well.

[FoxDropz]

Being completely honest, I knew for sure that I wanted to make a Paladin.
I liked the Oaths but i choose Oath of Vengeance because of this tier list (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQK9WoCYz5l0IWv6a9kDJmy4X5-zQYd631t1CFxGA_68OKeKxKyM3prgvHqx1k7acRdTKO0ZR6XXL Op/pubhtml#) and 2 paladin guides: My Word is My Sword: The Paladin Guide by GladiusLegis and Good is Not Nice, A paladin's guide by EvilAnagram.

[Blood of Gaea]

Being completely honest, I knew for sure that I wanted to make a Paladin.
I liked the Oaths but i choose Oath of Vengeance because of this tier list (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQK9WoCYz5l0IWv6a9kDJmy4X5-zQYd631t1CFxGA_68OKeKxKyM3prgvHqx1k7acRdTKO0ZR6XXL Op/pubhtml#) and 2 paladin guides: My Word is My Sword: The Paladin Guide by GladiusLegis and Good is Not Nice, A paladin's guide by EvilAnagram.
Hey, I'm with you here, Vengeance is my favorite type of paladin to play. :smallsmile:

[CTurbo]

How about this-
vhuman with HAM feat start with 16 Str, 14 Con, 16 Cha at level 1
Level 4 take PAM
Level 8 take either +2 to Str or Cha depending on your needs at the time. By then you may want something completely different. IMO, 8 levels in is a bit too far to try to plan for. You'll never know now what you may need by then.
I'd probably take Defense over GWF but this is not a big deal either way. Trading an always on 1 AC for a conditional ~+1 damage per hit. If you're not using a shield, I'd take Defense everytime.


You asked about different Oaths? Oath of Vengeance is very good and if that's what you want to play, play it. It's level 7 feature is very poor when compared to Devotion which grants complete immunity to charm for you and any ally within 10ft of you. Ancients grants complete spell damage resistance in the same 10ft aura. Your party will love you, your DM will hate you.

[Willie the Duck]

Should I be more of a Tank instead of DPR? Tell what do you think.
Yeah I see your point. There are 2 things that I like about a PC. Being able to do a lot of damage (big damage or damage on a lot of foes) and being "unkillable". That pretty much how I like my PCs, its kinda of a dumb statement.. but idk if it helps lol :smalltongue:

Well, the one thing to note is that 5e is pretty successful at making it such that you can't be everything and have to make difficult choices.

It sounds like your party is pretty squishy, I can imagine that it would be a higher priority for you to tank it more than dish out the damage. But the choice is ultimately up to you and what you would have fun with.

[FoxDropz]

Hey, I'm with you here, Vengeance is my favorite type of paladin to play. :smallsmile:

Glad Im not alone on this one! :smallbiggrin:


How about this-
vhuman with HAM feat start with 16 Str, 14 Con, 16 Cha at level 1
Level 4 take PAM
Level 8 take either +2 to Str or Cha depending on your needs at the time. By then you may want something completely different. IMO, 8 levels in is a bit too far to try to plan for. You'll never know now what you may need by then.
I'd probably take Defense over GWF but this is not a big deal either way. Trading an always on 1 AC for a conditional ~+1 damage per hit. If you're not using a shield, I'd take Defense everytime.


You asked about different Oaths? Oath of Vengeance is very good and if that's what you want to play, play it. It's level 7 feature is very poor when compared to Devotion which grants complete immunity to charm for you and any ally within 10ft of you. Ancients grants complete spell damage resistance in the same 10ft aura. Your party will love you, your DM will hate you.

HAM really makes the difference in this build? Idk, GWF seems OP when your DM let you reroll smite rolls...


Well, the one thing to note is that 5e is pretty successful at making it such that you can't be everything and have to make difficult choices.

It sounds like your party is pretty squishy, I can imagine that it would be a higher priority for you to tank it more than dish out the damage. But the choice is ultimately up to you and what you would have fun with.

Yeah, this party got a really bad composition lol. I would have fun with any type of Paladin to be honest. But, I got the min-max gene on every game I play, so if Im gonna roll a Vengeance Paladin, I will try to make the best one, you know? I know I loose a lot of time having this "perfectionist characteristic", especially when I dont master the subject lol.. :smalleek:

[Nidgit]

If you want to play an edgy Paladin but you're worried about tanking for your party, you might take a look at the Conquest paladin. Particularly once you hit level 7, the Conquest paladin is one of the stickiest classes in the game.

If you're mainly attracted by the fluff or abilities of the Oath of Vengeance, you're totally fine sticking with it.

[FoxDropz]

If you want to play an edgy Paladin but you're worried about tanking for your party, you might take a look at the Conquest paladin. Particularly once you hit level 7, the Conquest paladin is one of the stickiest classes in the game.

If you're mainly attracted by the fluff or abilities of the Oath of Vengeance, you're totally fine sticking with it.

Hmm.. Conquest looks interesting but Im gonna stick with Vengeance. :smallsmile:

[Galadhrim]

I'm not sure your party is as squishy as you think. Rogue has d8 hit dice and several ways to mitigate damage. Monk is the same. Druid has several healing spells and d8 hit dice. Ranger and Paladin both come with healing and d10 hit dice. Everyone has at least medium armor except the rogue and monk and they tend to be very high dex classes so will still have decent AC anyway.

I think you can play the oath you want without too much worry about playing the tank.

[FoxDropz]

I'm not sure your party is as squishy as you think. Rogue has d8 hit dice and several ways to mitigate damage. Monk is the same. Druid has several healing spells and d8 hit dice. Ranger and Paladin both come with healing and d10 hit dice. Everyone has at least medium armor except the rogue and monk and they tend to be very high dex classes so will still have decent AC anyway.

I think you can play the oath you want without too much worry about playing the tank.

Yeah, Im definitly gonna roll Oath of Vengeance. Even the DM said for us like: "Choose whatever class you want, dont worry about group composition... just pick a PC that you gonna have fun."

Im gonna take a look again at the feats/Races and build a Paladin that is gonna work for Level 10 cap and thats it.

[Blood of Gaea]

Yeah, Im definitly gonna roll Oath of Vengeance. Even the DM said for us like: "Choose whatever class you want, dont worry about group composition... just pick a PC that you gonna have fun."

Im gonna take a look again at the feats/Races and build a Paladin that is gonna work for Level 10 cap and thats it.
If after a few levels your party is having tankiness problems, you could also consider the Inspiring Leader feat, that's a nice source of THP for everyone.

[FoxDropz]

If after a few levels your party is having tankiness problems, you could also consider the Inspiring Leader feat, that's a nice source of THP for everyone.

Interesting. thanks for the tip :smallsmile:

[CTurbo]

Well you should just play what you're really wanting.

Vhuman with PAM at level 1 with 16 Str, 14 Con, 14 Cha and GWF style
Level 4 GWM
Level 8 +2 Str

You're going to miss a lot, and you're not going to be very good at actually being a Paladin, but you're going to be a DPR machine when you do hit. Just spam all of your slots with smite.

I'm pretty sure by now that this is the build you are looking for. It's not what I would want to play, but this place would be boring if we all wanted the same build.

[FoxDropz]

Well you should just play what you're really wanting.

Vhuman with PAM at level 1 with 16 Str, 14 Con, 14 Cha and GWF style
Level 4 GWM
Level 8 +2 Str

You're going to miss a lot, and you're not going to be very good at actually being a Paladin, but you're going to be a DPR machine when you do hit. Just spam all of your slots with smite.

I'm pretty sure by now that this is the build you are looking for. It's not what I would want to play, but this place would be boring if we all wanted the same build.

Well, not being very good at being a Paladin is not what Im seeking :smallfrown:
You would build a Tankier/Protector paladin, since you said that you made a mistake of building a highly DPR optimized GWF/GWM 20 Str Vengeance Paladin. And you said you had a Healer, Im not even gonna have that lul!

You suggested before the V.Human HAM+PAM (defense style), but tell me.. If you were in my Party, how exactly would you build this paladin with level 10 cap.
I like the DPR, but as I said, I dont mind changing my role and being a Full Tank. If the best option for my paladin is to have a good defense and support the other guys, no problem I'll do it! :smallsmile:
Sorry for insisting in this thread and posting on other forums .I did it because I dont have much knowledge on D&D, but I like to have as much opinions as possible from people that really have experienced it!

[CTurbo]

Well, not being very good at being a Paladin is not what Im seeking :smallfrown:
You would build a Tankier/Protector paladin, since you said that you made a mistake of building a highly DPR optimized GWF/GWM 20 Str Vengeance Paladin. And you said you had a Healer, Im not even gonna have that lul!

You suggested before the V.Human HAM+PAM (defense style), but tell me.. If you were in my Party, how exactly would you build this paladin with level 10 cap.
I like the DPR, but as I said, I dont mind changing my role and being a Full Tank. If the best option for my paladin is to have a good defense and support the other guys, no problem I'll do it! :smallsmile:
Sorry for insisting in this thread and posting on other forums .I did it because I dont have much knowledge on D&D, but I like to have as much opinions as possible from people that really have experienced it!


I keep forgetting that you are using the crappy standard array and not point buy so the only way for you to get 16 Str, 14 Con, and 16 Char at level 1 is with Half-Elf.

Vhuman with HAM at level 1 only gets you 16 Str, 13 Con, and 16 Cha at which point you could take Res(Con) at level 4. This is not a flashy build but a very effective one.

Have you taken a close look at exactly what you're getting in the Paladin class? Particularly Vengeance... you get a lot of GREAT spells and many of them can be cast as bonus actions which is great because you can still attack attack each round, BUT most of your best spells require concentration. This is key. You never want to fail a concentration check quickly as you'd be wasting a precious spell slot which you don't get that many of in the first place. You don't want to Bless the whole party only to drop it the first time you get hit. Charisma is EXTREMELY important maybe even moreso than Strength in some cases. I try to keep them relatively level with Str probably getting a +2 nod when possible like 18 Str 16 Cha for example but 16 Str 18 Cha is still great.

The Paladin class is inherently DPR heavy so I don't really think investing in more damage is really necessary. Sure you can go that route and have fun with it, but the Paladin class is so much more than JUST damage. You are a great buffer and debuffer, and a decent Healer when needed to be. In your party makeup, I would build around staying power especially since you are pretty much the only tank. It's easier to optimize for extra damage when you have a second frontline buddy but in your case you really don't unless the Ranger plans on being melee heavy. The Monk is a skirmisher and the rest are squishy casters.

From levels 6-10, your Aura of Protection is going to be HUGE for you especially but for any ally that stays close to you(and they will) so you don't want to neglect Cha too much. I would settle for no less than 16 here and really 18 would be better. +4 to ALL saves is nearly game breaking. +3 is still great of course.

HAM keeps getting mentioned because it's AWESOME at lower levels. a static -3 to all melee damage is huge. It stays relevant through the mid levels as things attack you twice so that -3 turns into -6 if both attacks hit. HAM also lets you start with +2 Str from level 1.

And again, I would not plan anything for level 8 so early. You never know what you're going to need to the most by the time you actually get there.

[FoxDropz]

I keep forgetting that you are using the crappy standard array and not point buy so the only way for you to get 16 Str, 14 Con, and 16 Char at level 1 is with Half-Elf.

Vhuman with HAM at level 1 only gets you 16 Str, 13 Con, and 16 Cha at which point you could take Res(Con) at level 4. This is not a flashy build but a very effective one.

Have you taken a close look at exactly what you're getting in the Paladin class? Particularly Vengeance... you get a lot of GREAT spells and many of them can be cast as bonus actions which is great because you can still attack attack each round, BUT most of your best spells require concentration. This is key. You never want to fail a concentration check quickly as you'd be wasting a precious spell slot which you don't get that many of in the first place. You don't want to Bless the whole party only to drop it the first time you get hit. Charisma is EXTREMELY important maybe even moreso than Strength in some cases. I try to keep them relatively level with Str probably getting a +2 nod when possible like 18 Str 16 Cha for example but 16 Str 18 Cha is still great.

The Paladin class is inherently DPR heavy so I don't really think investing in more damage is really necessary. Sure you can go that route and have fun with it, but the Paladin class is so much more than JUST damage. You are a great buffer and debuffer, and a decent Healer when needed to be. In your party makeup, I would build around staying power especially since you are pretty much the only tank. It's easier to optimize for extra damage when you have a second frontline buddy but in your case you really don't unless the Ranger plans on being melee heavy. The Monk is a skirmisher and the rest are squishy casters.

From levels 6-10, your Aura of Protection is going to be HUGE for you especially but for any ally that stays close to you(and they will) so you don't want to neglect Cha too much. I would settle for no less than 16 here and really 18 would be better. +4 to ALL saves is nearly game breaking. +3 is still great of course.

HAM keeps getting mentioned because it's AWESOME at lower levels. a static -3 to all melee damage is huge. It stays relevant through the mid levels as things attack you twice so that -3 turns into -6 if both attacks hit. HAM also lets you start with +2 Str from level 1.

And again, I would not plan anything for level 8 so early. You never know what you're going to need to the most by the time you actually get there.

That looks like an awesome build. Tanky, Support and still got damage. Great info!! :smallbiggrin: