Monk considering an MC dip

[Pharaon]

I’m playing a level 7 kensei monk in a game that is expected to get to level 20. Looking ahead, I’m not thrilled by the monk capstone so I’m considering multiclassing for 2 levels after getting the level 8 ASI and then finishing off in monk levels. My rolled stats worked out really well (12/20/16/12/18/8), so losing the level 19 ASI/feat isn’t a major concern.

I am only eligible to multiclass into cleric, druid, fighter, ranger, and rogue by stat restrictions. I play a lot of casters so I’m trying to avoid those here, bringing me to fighter or rogue and I’m having trouble deciding.

Fighter 2
Pros:
-Fighting Style
-Second Wind
-Action Surge

Cons:
-No usable proficiencies picked up in the MC
-Second Wind would only ever be 1d10+2

Rogue 2
Pros:
-Additional skill proficiency in the MC
-Expertise in two skills
-Sneak Attack
-Cunning Action

Cons:
-Sneak Attack is only ever 1d6, requires advantage/nearby ally and finesse/range
-Cunning Action doubles up on monk features

It really comes down to whether Action Surge 1/rest or potential Sneak Attack 1/turn will be more effective. The tank typically charges in so I should generally be able to get Sneak Attack, likely making it more valuable than one additional attack action between rests. Cunning Action frees up ki for Flurry of Blows and Stunning Strike, but Mobile makes it so I’m not spending ki on such things very often anyway.

I’m leaning towards rogue for Sneak Attack and Expertise, but I wanted to make sure I wasn’t missing anything.

[The Jack]

Given the 20 dex and 18 wis (which may be bumped to 20), the next best thing is to wait till the next ASI, increase your options, and then become.. a barbarian cleric monk.

[CTurbo]

How bad do you want the 18th level Empty Body? I think if you're going to dip, you should take at least 3 levels of whatever class.

Fighter 3 gets you Battle Master maneuvers or expanded crit range.

Rogue 3 gets you 2d6 sneak attack, and a very strong Assassinate feature, or the Thief's Fast hands and Second Story Work features, or the Swashbuckler's ability to attack and walk away allowing you to use your bonus action for more attacking or dashing while also getting sneak attack easier.

But what I would really do is Ranger 3

Natural Explorer is nearly OP. Favored enemy (humanoids) is great for a Monk with so many attacks. Hunter gets you Horde breaker which is great, and Deep/Gloom Stalker gets you extra darkvision, extra movement, and an extra attack on the first round.

Monks don't benefit from Fighting Styles quite as much as other classes do. Defense doesn't help if unarmored. You kind of already have TWF, GWF doesn't work with unarmed attacks I don't think. Archery is pretty much the most helpful to be honest.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Monks don't benefit from Fighting Styles quite as much as other classes do. Defense doesn't help if unarmored. You kind of already have TWF, GWF doesn't work with unarmed attacks I don't think. Archery is pretty much the most helpful to be honest.

And if you're interested in Archery, I'd like to draw your attention to the Scout Rogue, which can move out of melee range as a reaction at level 3.

[Specter]

Dueling will add +2 to every weapon attack you make. If Kensei allows you to use Flurry of Blows with your weapon (can't recall), then that's some serious damage improvement.

[Pharaon]

Empty Body seems like a feature I don't want to miss (4 ki for greater invisibility and resistance to everything except force), so I'm currently planning on sticking with a 2 level dip, despite knowing the 3 would be more effective for pretty much every class.

For fighting style, I was planning on dueling or archery. To my knowledge, flurry does not allow for use of kensei weapons, so the dueling bonus would only be on the 2 weapon attacks. Without crunching all the to-hit chances, I figure two weapon attacks with +2 damage each or two weapon attacks plus 1d6 total would likely come out about the same.

I had considered getting strength up and going barbarian, but I wouldn't get rage damage or Reckless Attack due to using dexterity to attack and I already have better unarmored defense as a monk. Danger Sense is tempting, but partially replicated by monk's Diamond Soul.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Empty Body seems like a feature I don't want to miss (4 ki for greater invisibility and resistance to everything except force), so I'm currently planning on sticking with a 2 level dip, despite knowing the 3 would be more effective for pretty much every class.

For fighting style, I was planning on dueling or archery. To my knowledge, flurry does not allow for use of kensei weapons, so the dueling bonus would only be on the 2 weapon attacks. Without crunching all the to-hit chances, I figure two weapon attacks with +2 damage each or two weapon attacks plus 1d6 total would likely come out about the same.

I had considered getting strength up and going barbarian, but I wouldn't get rage damage or Reckless Attack due to using dexterity to attack and I already have better unarmored defense as a monk. Danger Sense is tempting, but partially replicated by monk's Diamond Soul.

If Empty Body is good enough that you want to keep a dip to 2 levels, isn't it good enough that you'd like to get it at ECL 18 and have it available for 19 and 20?

[Citan]

I’m playing a level 7 kensei monk in a game that is expected to get to level 20. Looking ahead, I’m not thrilled by the monk capstone so I’m considering multiclassing for 2 levels after getting the level 8 ASI and then finishing off in monk levels. My rolled stats worked out really well (12/20/16/12/18/8), so losing the level 19 ASI/feat isn’t a major concern.

I am only eligible to multiclass into cleric, druid, fighter, ranger, and rogue by stat restrictions. I play a lot of casters so I’m trying to avoid those here, bringing me to fighter or rogue and I’m having trouble deciding.

Hi OP.

If Empty Body is good enough that you want to keep a dip to 2 levels, isn't it good enough that you'd like to get it at ECL 18 and have it available for 19 and 20?
As much as I love multiclassing, I find this a very sensible bit: unless you are pretty sure a) you'll reach 20 quickly enough to your taste and b) you'll still get at least the same amount of play after 20 as xp value of 19 and 20 combined...

I'd actually stick with pure Monk really unless...
a) Monk's future features are not appealing to you (although I'd say at least the "+3 Ki = 3+ attack for a minute" of lvl 11 is damn good).
b) You're getting bored with current ones...
c) None of the feats would entertain you or expand your options in a direction you'd want.
If all three check out you should multiclass immediately.

Otherwise, I'd say don't care about your stats (they are very great anyways for your level) and rack on feats!
Between the ones that just make you better at being you (Alert, Mobile, Athlete), the ones that specialize you (Observant, Mage Slayer, Sentinel, Tough), the ones that broaden your options (Magic Initiate, Ritual Caster) PHB is not lacking with interesting feats.
If none is fitting your will, you could also ask your DM to allow UA content: while there is balance-breaking content in UA, it's much more related to classes... I fail to see in my head a feat that would be overpowered yet not officially released anyways (*poke Elven Accuracy*).

If your DM agrees, you now get access to Expertise feats and weapon feats. It would be really sad if you didn't find something you fancy among all that. :)

---------
If you're still into multiclassing, just forget Fighter, really not worth it, at least in this context (high stats Monk, 2-levels only).
- Proficiencies are wasted (you already got ever more than you would ever really need)...
- It's not like you really need a Fighting Style either: TWF is useless for you, Defense and Protection are incompatible... And while Dueling and Archery are good in general, with your stats and archetype, it's really not making a difference big enough to warrant a level into it, unless you spend most of your time using a bow for some reason in which case Archery would become a must-have... But then there may have been a casting error in the first place ^^).
- And Action Surge, while giving you a nice "just stunstunstunstunstunstun Ki-blowing nova ability, will just mean you'll be even more useless in the following rounds.

Rogue (Sneak Attack, Expertise, Cunning Action) is far more worth it if only for Cunning Action, which means you can improve mobility (Dash) and Defense (Disengage) without using Ki like other Monks would, in addition to adding another tactical option (Hide). This is a very great way to conserve Ki over a fight to instead spend on your archetype features (Dodge, weapon buff) or Stunning Strike.
If you're going into melee against brawny characters often, Expertise in Athletics (to Shove them) or Acrobatics (to ensure you're never shoved) is also very good.
Or you could pick Expertise in Perception and pair it with Observant to become the one that sees and hears everything. :)
Sneak Attack though? Mostly useless (it's extra damage sure, but really unimpressive for you).

[The Jack]

Kensai weapons are monk weapons, so you can use fury of blows with them, and you can use dex even if you picked a warhammer.
Fighting style- Great weapon fighting would work with a a versatile weapon, which could be a kensai weapon, which would allow you to use flurry of blows because switching between 2h and 1h isn't even an action if you've got one hand free.
Kensai is literally a class made for someone who wants to be the Katana-Karate master, the name literally means "sword saint".

RAI, Kensai was made for someone to go "katana strike, Katana strike, Then I slap him twice."

Action surge and second wind are great. That'd mean "Katana strike, Katana strike, Katana strike, Katana strike, Then I slap him twice. I think I'd rather get Battlemaster than perfect body though, for more edo-ronin goodness.

[Xihirli]

Dueling will add +2 to every weapon attack you make.

Dueling adds +2 to damage. Archery adds +2 to attack.

[Aaron Underhand]

Ranger 2 gives you a fighting style, and hunter's mark twice/day....

Cleric 2 gives you bless 3 times a day (plus other spell options), and channel divinity - consider knowledge or trickery

[Pharaon]

If Empty Body is good enough that you want to keep a dip to 2 levels, isn't it good enough that you'd like to get it at ECL 18 and have it available for 19 and 20?


As much as I love multiclassing, I find this a very sensible bit: unless you are pretty sure a) you'll reach 20 quickly enough to your taste and b) you'll still get at least the same amount of play after 20 as xp value of 19 and 20 combined...


The current plan is to play past 20 with boons/other advancements, so delaying Empty Body for two levels shouldn't be a major issue.

We've been advancing fairly quickly. Everyone is playing classes new to them, so we started at a lower level to organically learn the classes. The stated expectation is to slow down and start the real meat of the campaign at level 15 in a couple months, with levels 15-20 being about half of the total play.


Kensai weapons are monk weapons, so you can use fury of blows with them, and you can use dex even if you picked a warhammer.

Oh yes, I know I can make two attacks with monk/kensei weapons and then Flurry. Perhaps I misunderstood a previous poster but they seemed to imply using the kensei weapon for the flurry attacks.

RAW, unarmed attacks don't have to be punch/slap/hand-based, they can be any bodily attack. Two-handed quarterstaff monks have always been headbutting and kicking and elbowing and whatever else without having to worry about taking a hand off a weapon, so using a longsword versatile-style isn't a problem with Flurry.

[CTurbo]

Ranger's favored enemy would add +2 to every attack against any humanoid which is what 75-90% of all things you're going to fight? Attack Attack + Flurry of Blows is +8 extra damage. And you can still take Dueling with Ranger. That's +12 more damage per round total plus advantage on Initiative.

If you're playing past 20, couldn't you dip for 3 levels and still get Empty Body???

[Citan]

Kensai weapons are monk weapons, so you can use fury of blows with them, and you can use dex even if you picked a warhammer.
Fighting style- Great weapon fighting would work with a a versatile weapon, which could be a kensai weapon, which would allow you to use flurry of blows because switching between 2h and 1h isn't even an action if you've got one hand free.
Kensai is literally a class made for someone who wants to be the Katana-Karate master, the name literally means "sword saint".

RAI, Kensai was made for someone to go "katana strike, Katana strike, Then I slap him twice."

Action surge and second wind are great. That'd mean "Katana strike, Katana strike, Katana strike, Katana strike, Then I slap him twice. I think I'd rather get Battlemaster than perfect body though, for more edo-ronin goodness.
Hey, you are right, didn't realize that bit. Thanks for pointing that out. ;)

Sadly, still doesn't change much on the outcome.
Reroll 1 and 2 will make damage a bit better, but my intuition is that is really not enough to make investment worth: especially since you could make finesse weapon be Monk's weapon, so compatible with Sneak Attack and Martial's 1d10 on the other side, while still getting one free hand for Grappling or using objects. Even going for an original Great Weapon Master (feat) Kensei wouldn't make any difference in value evaluation, since the bonus damage is a flat one.

Second Wind is useless here: sorry, no other words: at level 7 already, an average of 7 HP restoration as a bonus action on self is an utter waste of bonus action whatever way you look at it (if at least you could use it on others, it would be a minimum useful as a a Poorman's Cure Wounds). Especially when you could use that bonus action on Dodge/Disengage instead (which overall means much more HP "preserved" as a result). So let's not even speak about higher levels.

And Action Surge means, once every short rest, you can draw 2 more attacks in the same turn.
Compare with Cunning Action: every time such a Monk would use Dash, he spares a ki (that could be used on Flurry of Blows for 2 more attacks). Every time he uses Disengage, he spares a ki (same). Every time he uses a bonus action on Hide, he'll get advantage on his next attack (which could be more or less accounted as one more attack, at least as far as hit chances go). So over one encounter, chances are the Monk with Cunning Action will have spared at the very, very minimum 1 Ki = 2 attacks/Dodge/Dash/Disengage = exactly what Action Surge can provide, except it's a minimum gain here. (My personal experience would rather say between 2 and 4, but encounters are longer in my games and my Monk player tends to act carefully so obviously YMMV).

Action Surge is nice on a Fighter because a Fighter does not have much use of his bonus action without specific investment but has much use of his Attack action, so this means a great deal to him, because he can either nova damage or combine any two normal actions to be directly offensive (for example a Dash to come into reach and attack immediately).

A Monk that will never have anything else offense-wise than 2 attacks with his Attack action, and can get another 2 attacks for a minimum cost when needed, and get built-in Dash/Dodge as a bonus action, will get very little mileage out of Action Surge. Especially until level 14 at least, if you consider it as a way to nova-spam Stunning Strike to ensure the biggest bad guy is down for good: on a *single* turn, as a level 10 character (Monk 8 / Fighter 2), you would blow nearly all of your entire ki pool (1 for Flurry of Blows, 6 for all SS attempts).
Would that be enough to kill the guy? My bet is not. Would that be enough to ensure he's stunned at least for that round? Probably close to 100% chance, but I'd argue that 4 (Extra Attack + FoB) would be enough anyways to get the same kind of extremely high chance of success.
Let's not forget that it only lasts one round whatever happens so no need to go overboard here, it would be just a waste of resources.

Going for a 3-level dip would change the "compared attractiveness" analysis, because Battlemaster and Champion (much more the former though) bring features that synergize with a Monk, especially Kensai...
But 3 is not 2. :)
And anyways, Battlemaster manoeuvers, as good as may be, would still be leagues inferior to Empty Body so it's not like there is any question here either...

[The Jack]

I agree that GWF isn't that impressive to a kensai, but Action surge gives you an extra action and you can make a bonus action (the PHB uses the term "possible" because the fighter doesn't start with a lot of things to use a bonus action on)

So on one turn, you can multi attack, action surge as a bonus, multi attack, flury of blows as a bonus.Action surge is never not a good thing, Bonus points if your first attack knocks prone.

Rogues are great, but if you're going to be a sword saint, there's the true answer.

[Pharaon]

Ranger's favored enemy would add +2 to every attack against any humanoid which is what 75-90% of all things you're going to fight? Attack Attack + Flurry of Blows is +8 extra damage. And you can still take Dueling with Ranger. That's +12 more damage per round total plus advantage on Initiative.

If you're playing past 20, couldn't you dip for 3 levels and still get Empty Body???

We're playing past 20 but not gaining additional class levels, instead gaining boons and some other as-yet-unknown benefits.

Ranger is interesting. I'm trying to avoid spell casting, but I think I can rationalize the spell slots if I only use them for Hunter's Mark twice per day. That would be even more effective than Sneak Attack.

I'm not sure how effective favored enemy will be. I might talk to my DM about it, but I somewhat doubt post-level 20 play will involve many humans/humaniods. If I get a clue as to other types, it may still be useful.

[CTurbo]

Yeah Hunter's mark would be epic with all of the attacks the Monk makes. I was basically ignoring the 2 spell slots the Ranger would give you.

From my experiences, no matter what level you are, the DM is always going to throw strong NPC type villains at you. But yeah ask your DM.