Unholy Scion Template Question.

[Yogibear41]

To make a long question short: The Unholy Scion was a template printed in the Heroes of Horror book and listed with a DR overcome by Good OR Magic, however in the Cityscape book (which was printed a year later) an example Unholy Scion is used that has a DR over come by Good AND Magic, since Cityscape was printed after Heroes of Horror should the updated example in Cityscape be used and give a DR of Good and Magic for characters/creatures with the unholy scion template?

The same sample creature is presented here
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061110a&page=4
in this web article as well, again with DR Good and Magic.

[Doctor Awkward]

To make a long question short: The Unholy Scion was a template printed in the Heroes of Horror book and listed with a DR overcome by Good OR Magic, however in the Cityscape book (which was printed a year later) an example Unholy Scion is used that has a DR over come by Good AND Magic, since Cityscape was printed after Heroes of Horror should the updated example in Cityscape be used and give a DR of Good and Magic for characters/creatures with the unholy scion template?

The same sample creature is presented here
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061110a&page=4
in this web article as well, again with DR Good and Magic.

Officially, Heroes of Horror is the primary source for unholy scion, so in the case of a conflict it takes precedence. Per RAW, an unholy scion has DR to good or magic, so weapons meeting either of those overcome its DR.

Practically, Heroes of Horror was very, very poorly edited book, so it is equally possible that it was always intended to be good and magic. But there is no way of knowing for sure, and the author of Cityscape could just as easily have misread unholy scion when creating that character. As no errata for either book exists, RAW is quite clear.

[Thurbane]

RAW? As per HoH p.157, DR for an Unholy Scion (one of my favourite bad guy templates, BTW) is always Good or Magic.

Unfortunately, stat blocks are notoriously wonky, and can't reliably be held up as an updated rules source.

It would be entirely reasonable for a DM to change the DR to Good and Magic, since the RAW type of DR is basically meaningless (DR that can be overcome by a simple +1 weapon becomes virtually useless after very low levels).

[Yogibear41]

Officially, Heroes of Horror is the primary source for unholy scion, so in the case of a conflict it takes precedence. Per RAW, an unholy scion has DR to good or magic, so weapons meeting either of those overcome its DR.


Just to play Devil's Advocate, I looked up info on the "primary source" rule, and while I want to agree the Heroes of Horror is the Primary Source because it was the book the template was completely stated out in, what exactly does make it the Primary source? The only stuff I can find on Primary source talks about the PHB, MM, and DMG more or less and leaves other stuff open to interpretation.

Does anything in the rules specifically call out what criteria a book has to meet to be the "primary source"?

I know I maybe starting one of those "down the rabbit hole" discussions with no real answer. :smallfrown:

[Doctor Awkward]

Just to play Devil's Advocate, I looked up info on the "primary source" rule, and while I want to agree the Heroes of Horror is the Primary Source because it was the book the template was completely stated out in, what exactly does make it the Primary source? The only stuff I can find on Primary source talks about the PHB, MM, and DMG more or less and leaves other stuff open to interpretation.

Does anything in the rules specifically call out what criteria a book has to meet to be the "primary source"?

I know I maybe starting one of those "down the rabbit hole" discussions with no real answer. :smallfrown:

Strictly speaking, the answer to that question is "Ask your DM", since the primary source for any given topic is whichever source the DM decides is such for his campaign. Since the errata rule never specifically calls out any text other than the Player's Handbook, the Dungeon Master's Guide, or the Monster Manual by name, a lot of players interpret that rule as applying only to those three books. Even though this may create issues with the Player's Handbook's exceedingly broad mandate to cover "the rules of the game" (whatever that means).

For practical discussion purposes, the primary source is whichever book gives itself the broadest mandate over a given topic, and this is generally the first printed book that discusses that topic. The Expanded Psionics Handbook is the primary source for rules on psionics. The Book of Nine Swords is the primary source for martial adepts, maneuvers and stances. Individual classes, feats, and other abilities not printed in these books give their primacy to the book they first appear in.

If a book is ever intended to take primacy in a given topic over an older book, it will say so, such as in the introduction to the Rules Compendium which states it is intended to take precedence over every topic it discusses over older texts.