Travel between cities and towns - via permanent teleportation circles?

[Kaibis]

Just really curious about teleportation circles, and how common they are, and why they are not as common as they could be.

The PHBp282 says "Many major temples, guilds, and other important places have permanent teleportation circles..."


So I am going to presume that major cities (Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter, Waterdeep) would have permanent circles in some sort of transport hub ("arrival circles", wizards that will cast outgoing circles etc). I am wondering if there is any information that deals with this sort of thing. I can't think of any really good reasons why this wouldn't exist.

...In my own homebrew game I am creating a guild with chapters in quite a few places, so it would make sense that they have permanent circles... It seems too easy.

[Unoriginal]

Just really curious about teleportation circles, and how common they are, and why they are not as common as they could be.

The PHBp282 says "Many major temples, guilds, and other important places have permanent teleportation circles..."


So I am going to presume that major cities (Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter, Waterdeep) would have permanent circles in some sort of transport hub ("arrival circles", wizards that will cast outgoing circles etc). I am wondering if there is any information that deals with this sort of thing. I can't think of any really good reasons why this wouldn't exist.

...In my own homebrew game I am creating a guild with chapters in quite a few places, so it would make sense that they have permanent circles... It seems too easy.

They're not common because they're bloody expensive.

First you have to find a wizard capable of casting 5th level spells. Then you must convince them to work for you every day for a whole year.

You can check the PHB for how much casting even *one* 5th lvl spell costs. Now multiply that by 365.

[Blood of Gaea]

Many major temples, guilds, and other important places have permanent teleportation circles inscribed somewhere within their confines. Each such circle includes a unique sigil sequence - a string of magical runes arranged in a particular pattern. When you first gain the ability to cast this spell, you learn the sigil sequences for two destinations on the Material Plane, determined by the DM. You can learn additional sigil sequences during your adventures. You can commit a new sigil sequence to memory after studying it for 1 minute.

You can create a permanent teleportation circle by casting this spell in the same location every day for one year. You need not use the circle to teleport when you cast the spell in this way.
So temples to an important diety, rich guilds, and the nobles of well-off cities could be reasonably expected to have a teleportation circle, especially if they had a Bard, Sorcerer, or Wizard that worked there. Some fortresses/castles at important locations might also have a teleportation circle funded by the local government. Adjust according to your campaign setting.

[Kaibis]

They're not common because they're bloody expensive.

First you have to find a wizard capable of casting 5th level spells. Then you must convince them to work for you every day for a whole year.

You can check the PHB for how much casting even *one* 5th lvl spell costs. Now multiply that by 365.

50gp x 365 = 18,250gp
plus wages of the 9th level wizard (idk, a lot more than the cost of the spell I imagine, 100g p/d, 500g p/d?). I think the same wizard has to cast the spell, but the spell only takes 1 minutes per day, so they are free to do other things, just not free to leave the city.

60,000gp might be a reasonable price (spit-balling)

[Blood of Gaea]

50gp x 365 = 18,250gp
plus wages of the 9th level wizard (idk, a lot more than the cost of the spell I imagine, 100g p/d, 500g p/d?). I think the same wizard has to cast the spell, but the spell only takes 1 minutes per day, so they are free to do other things, just not free to leave the city.

60,000gp might be a reasonable price (spit-balling)
If they have the caster on payroll, they are likely paying a salary or per job, both would be unlikely.

[Tanarii]

If they have the caster on payroll, they are likely paying a salary or per job, both would be unlikely.
50gp per day is the cost of the components. Not the casters markup on the spell.

[Blood of Gaea]

50gp per day is the cost of the components. Not the casters markup on the spell.
Ah, my mistake.

[Tanarii]

Only thing I could find on markup for casters is an extrapolation from prices in tyranny and storm kings. It is:
(Level)2∗10+(ConsumedMaterials∗2)+(NonConsumedMate rials∗0.1)

So if we used that extrapolation, it's 350 gp per day. Or 127,750 for campaigns with a 365 day year.

Source for extrapolation:
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/109343/how-much-should-npcs-charge-for-spells-cast-as-services-to-pcs

[Blood of Gaea]

That's a good starting line, though some of that payment might be given in the form of official titles, land, privileges, and other goods.

[Tanarii]

That's a good starting line, though some of that payment might be given in the form of official titles, land, privileges, and other goods.
And obviously if the caster is a member of the organization in good standing (with benefits accordingly), the cost might be significantly less. But it gives us a good idea for the inherent value of the thing, for determining how common it might be. Roughly 2.5x a keep/small castle/abbey/temple, or about 1/4 of a palace/large castle. So probably not that common by any means.

[Tvtyrant]

And obviously if the caster is a member of the organization in good standing (with benefits accordingly), the cost might be significantly less. But it gives us a good idea for the inherent value of the thing, for determining how common it might be. Roughly 2.5x a keep/small castle/abbey/temple, or about 1/4 of a palace/large castle. So probably not that common by any means.

I guess the question is how much money can it make you? I could easily see making a fort just to put a circle in, under the assumption that people will pay you for access to that region.

[Blood of Gaea]

I guess the question is how much money can it make you? I could easily see making a fort just to put a circle in, under the assumption that people will pay you for access to that region.
Not to mention the sheer tactical utility of being able to move troops massive distances. Transporting heavy loads of valuable materials would also be a good use for guilds.

[Kaibis]

Only thing I could find on markup for casters is an extrapolation from prices in tyranny and storm kings. It is:
(Level)2∗10+(ConsumedMaterials∗2)+(NonConsumedMate rials∗0.1)

So if we used that extrapolation, it's 350 gp per day. Or 127,750 for campaigns with a 365 day year.

Source for extrapolation:
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/109343/how-much-should-npcs-charge-for-spells-cast-as-services-to-pcs

I would agree with those figures. The 5th lvl Greater Restoration is recommended to cost 450gp (inc. a 100gp component) - so 350gp for a 5th lvl spell, plus components.

350gp + 50gp = 400gp (cost to pay a wizard to cast the spell once)
400gp * 365 = 146,000gp (or 14,600pp).

~~150,000gp per teleportation circle. That is pricey.

If I am reading correctly the permanent teleportation does two things:
1) it acts as a "permanent circle" (ie no mishaps) for anyone teleporting from anywhere using the 7th lvl teleport spell.
2) it can be permanently linked to an existing circle, to allow continuous travel.

My reading of the rules suggests that for constant two-way travel between two-points, a series of circles would need to be created.
ie.
1. Location A: Perm. Circle A is created (linked to nowhere)
2. Location B: Perm. Circle B is created (linked to A, this allows travel from B-->A, but not A-->B)
3. Location A: Perm. Circle C is created (linked to B, this allows travel from C-->B.

Voila, permanent (free, and unsecured) travel now exists between two locations... at a total cost of 300-450 thousand gp (depending on whether you agree with my logic or not).


It's possible that a church might be able to achieve this for much cheaper, say an old arcanist has taken up resident with the church, he is retired, happy to do research all day, happy to cast one spell per day to make this happen. The cost for the church becomes a lot less, maybe as low as the 20k gp (especially if the old arcanist has decided to make it her mission to travel around the major churches providing this service.

[Blood of Gaea]

1) it acts as a "permanent circle" (ie no mishaps) for anyone teleporting from anywhere using the 7th lvl teleport spell.

You can also teleport to another circle using the spell, the 7th level teleport is not needed.

[Kaibis]

You can also teleport to another circle using the spell, the 7th level teleport is not needed.

True, but doesn't change the important bits.... costs of permanent circles and their worth as a form of travel.

[VoxRationis]

Isn't the permanent teleportation circle just a destination? I have been told that the permanent circles do not possess any ability to enable outgoing teleportation.

In the 5th edition setting I worked on for a time, I had it so that most of the circles had been set up in the very distant past for this reason. Assuming the above interpretation is correct, the circle is only good if you anticipate someone friendly to you having the ability to cast teleport or teleportation circle and needing to come to you, and moreover, the circle creates a significant security vulnerability. Thus, the establishment of permanent circles implies the regular use of significant magical power, connection to a wider association of far-flung people with need to quickly travel, and a comparative dearth of enemies (at the very least in relation to the number of allies who might need to use it). Thus, with the exception of those belonging to a handful of wizards who traveled abroad frequently enough to warrant establishing a quicker way back to base, the vast majority of permanent teleportation circles were built by an ancient civilization whose society fit these criteria.

[Blood of Gaea]

Isn't the permanent teleportation circle just a destination? I have been told that the permanent circles do not possess any ability to enable outgoing teleportation.

In the 5th edition setting I worked on for a time, I had it so that most of the circles had been set up in the very distant past for this reason. Assuming the above interpretation is correct, the circle is only good if you anticipate someone friendly to you having the ability to cast teleport or teleportation circle and needing to come to you, and moreover, the circle creates a significant security vulnerability. Thus, the establishment of permanent circles implies the regular use of significant magical power, connection to a wider association of far-flung people with need to quickly travel, and a comparative dearth of enemies (at the very least in relation to the number of allies who might need to use it). Thus, with the exception of those belonging to a handful of wizards who traveled abroad frequently enough to warrant establishing a quicker way back to base, the vast majority of permanent teleportation circles were built by an ancient civilization whose society fit these criteria.
Correct, permanent circles only act as a landing point for teleports (including Plane Shift).

[VoxRationis]

In that case, there isn't a lot of impetus for most people, even those who could afford it, to make these circles. You'd have to predict that the utility gained by being able to move small numbers of people into your base quickly, so long as one of them is a magic-user of significant power, to outweigh the risk and cost of the security vulnerability the circle makes. The limits of the spells which link to the circle mean that there's very little utility for moving cargo or more than a few people through it.

[Blood of Gaea]

Hmm, well a very large undertaking could use a scroll to use Teleportation Circle, though a 5th level scroll costs 5,000 gp to make. If this is done enough it would easily pay for itself, as a 7th level scroll for teleport costs 25,000 gp each.

This, of course, would only be used for transporting very expensive cargo.

[Blacky the Blackball]

Basically, it all depends on whether you want quick city-to-city travel in your setting.

If you do, then there's lots of justifications you can make as to why most cities would have permanent Teleportation Circles in them; and if you don't then there's lots of justifications you can make as to why most cities wouldn't.

But I think in all cases the emotional decision - is this the sort of thing I want in my world - comes first and the justifications come later.

Personally, I'm all for it. It makes the world feel more fantastic and magical; and besides, narrating yet another weeks-long trek through the wilderness punctuated by random encounters gets boring after a while. If my players need to get somewhere we all find it much more convenient to assume that they pay a small fee to teleport to the nearest city and then spend a couple of days walking (or flying, but that's a whole other discussion) from there.


My reading of the rules suggests that for constant two-way travel between two-points, a series of circles would need to be created.
ie.
1. Location A: Perm. Circle A is created (linked to nowhere)
2. Location B: Perm. Circle B is created (linked to A, this allows travel from B-->A, but not A-->B)
3. Location A: Perm. Circle C is created (linked to B, this allows travel from C-->B.

I don't think I agree with your reading of the spell. By my reading, casting the spell once per day for a year makes the circle permanent, but doesn't keep it permanently linked to a single destination (in fact, it could have been pointed to a different location each day during that year). So at the end of the year you have a permanent circle with a fixed "address" that can be used as a destination for incoming spells (Teleportation Circle, Teleport, Plane Shift) that are cast from anywhere, but for outgoing transport it's not linked to anywhere and you still need to cast the Teleportation Circle spell to temporarily link it to a destination each time you want to transport - but if you do cast Teleportation Circle from it, because the circle is already there, you don't need the 50gp component cost for drawing a temporary one.


It's possible that a church might be able to achieve this for much cheaper, say an old arcanist has taken up resident with the church, he is retired, happy to do research all day, happy to cast one spell per day to make this happen. The cost for the church becomes a lot less, maybe as low as the 20k gp (especially if the old arcanist has decided to make it her mission to travel around the major churches providing this service.

In my world, it's usually the Mage's Guild that does it. They put up a circle at each of their branches/colleges, and then make a tidy profit charging people for their use (and keeping the price per use low enough that messengers and merchants can use it means they get a decent volume of usage - more than they would if they jacked up the prices out of reach of those classes of people).

[Angelalex242]

Basically, it all depends on whether you want quick city-to-city travel in your setting.

If you do, then there's lots of justifications you can make as to why most cities would have permanent Teleportation Circles in them; and if you don't then there's lots of justifications you can make as to why most cities wouldn't.

But I think in all cases the emotional decision - is this the sort of thing I want in my world - comes first and the justifications come later.

Personally, I'm all for it. It makes the world feel more fantastic and magical; and besides, narrating yet another weeks-long trek through the wilderness punctuated by random encounters gets boring after a while. If my players need to get somewhere we all find it much more convenient to assume that they pay a small fee to teleport to the nearest city and then spend a couple of days walking (or flying, but that's a whole other discussion) from there.



I don't think I agree with your reading of the spell. By my reading, casting the spell once per day for a year makes the circle permanent, but doesn't keep it permanently linked to a single destination (in fact, it could have been pointed to a different location each day during that year). So at the end of the year you have a permanent circle with a fixed "address" that can be used as a destination for incoming spells (Teleportation Circle, Teleport, Plane Shift) that are cast from anywhere, but for outgoing transport it's not linked to anywhere and you still need to cast the Teleportation Circle spell to temporarily link it to a destination each time you want to transport - but if you do cast Teleportation Circle from it, because the circle is already there, you don't need the 50gp component cost for drawing a temporary one.



In my world, it's usually the Mage's Guild that does it. They put up a circle at each of their branches/colleges, and then make a tidy profit charging people for their use (and keeping the price per use low enough that messengers and merchants can use it means they get a decent volume of usage - more than they would if they jacked up the prices out of reach of those classes of people).

It does make sense the mage's guild in every city would have these set up...because hey, the funding they get from running a teleportation service is phenomenal. Hell, it may be a rule of the guild that everyone who can cast teleportation circle has to spend a year making one in exchange, perhaps, for free copies of higher levels spells from other peoples' spell books.

As for the temples...instead of paying cash up front, what they do is pay the wizard in clerical casting of equal worth. Like, creating a teleportation circle for the holy church might get you free of charge True Resurrections should you end up needing one...Temples can also prevent unwanted teleportations by their enemies with the Hallow spell. The circle would be placed in a hallowed area, with the rider effect of enemies of the church can't teleport in that area. So only friendlies can use it..

[Contrast]

It does make sense the mage's guild in every city would have these set up...because hey, the funding they get from running a teleportation service is phenomenal. Hell, it may be a rule of the guild that everyone who can cast teleportation circle has to spend a year making one in exchange, perhaps, for free copies of higher levels spells from other peoples' spell books.

As for the temples...instead of paying cash up front, what they do is pay the wizard in clerical casting of equal worth. Like, creating a teleportation circle for the holy church might get you free of charge True Resurrections should you end up needing one...Temples can also prevent unwanted teleportations by their enemies with the Hallow spell. The circle would be placed in a hallowed area, with the rider effect of enemies of the church can't teleport in that area. So only friendlies can use it..

It's worth saying that once a city has a single teleportation circle, the utility of additional ones drastically reduces. Even in worlds where magic is common I feel it would be a very unusual setting where there would be a sufficiently high throughput of bards/wizards/sorc capable of casting level 5 spells to justify multiple circles in a city.

[Kaibis]

Isn't the permanent teleportation circle just a destination? I have been told that the permanent circles do not possess any ability to enable outgoing teleportation.


Correct, permanent circles only act as a landing point for teleports (including Plane Shift).


I don't think I agree with your reading of the spell. By my reading, casting the spell once per day for a year makes the circle permanent, but doesn't keep it permanently linked to a single destination (in fact, it could have been pointed to a different location each day during that year). So at the end of the year you have a permanent circle with a fixed "address" that can be used as a destination for incoming spells (Teleportation Circle, Teleport, Plane Shift) that are cast from anywhere, but for outgoing transport it's not linked to anywhere and you still need to cast the Teleportation Circle spell to temporarily link it to a destination each time you want to transport - but if you do cast Teleportation Circle from it, because the circle is already there, you don't need the 50gp component cost for drawing a temporary one.


I think I came across another discussion about the ambiguity of this spell wording. It needs a well place comma.
As written:
"You draw a circle on the ground inscribed with sigils that link your location to a permanent teleportation circle of your choice whose sigil sequence you know..."
But does it mean:
"You draw a circle on the ground inscribed with sigils, that link your location to a permanent teleportation circle of your choice, whose sigil sequence you know..."
OR
"You draw a circle on the ground, inscribed with sigils that link your location to a permanent teleportation circle of your choice, whose sigil sequence you know..."

The two meanings are very different, and guessing doesn't answer the question... I suppose DM choice here.

The other bit is the "You can create a permanent teleportation circle by casting this spell in the same location every day for year". Does that mean one you has to cast every instance, or multiple people. Again, the wording is ambiguous (DM choice again I suppose).


Arguments for and against:
Well, it makes sense for a portal to be a gateway, that reduces cost substantually, and makes a steady flow of traffic possible. However the chicken/egg bit bothers me... who made the first circle? To create a permanent circle one must cast a spell to link it to another circle...what if this is the first ever circle?

I feel happy now that I can make my DM choice based on good economics - I'll go with that.

[Kaibis]

It's worth saying that once a city has a single teleportation circle, the utility of additional ones drastically reduces. Even in worlds where magic is common I feel it would be a very unusual setting where there would be a sufficiently high throughput of bards/wizards/sorc capable of casting level 5 spells to justify multiple circles in a city.

Or they would be secret. A circle at a large thieves guild would be incredibly useful (bamph back home from a heist), but only the highest ranking members would know that it exists. Maybe just one member, for one crazy large long-game heist, spent a year creating it ...blah blah blah.

Or maybe members of a diety that believe only those of the faith may pass through. etc

But I would agree, only one common-for-all destination circle would be required per city

[Contrast]

Or they would be secret. A circle at a large thieves guild would be incredibly useful (bamph back home from a heist), but only the highest ranking members would know that it exists. Maybe just one member, for one crazy large long-game heist, spent a year creating it ...blah blah blah.

Pretty large expense on something which cannot be moved in case of discovery. Seems it would almost always be the better option to use the normal circle by arrangement and bribe people to look the other way as necessary. Maybe an excuse to have one in the poorer part of town though ('thieves made it hundreds of years ago before being turfed out by the city watch and its too valuable to just destroy').


Or maybe members of a diety that believe only those of the faith may pass through. etc

...must be pretty embarrassing when random passing bards/sorc/wizards can use it more easily than their clerics can though...

Thinking about it could be an interesting plot hook. Clerics of a certain religion on ascension to a certain rank are teleported by one of the more senior clergy to an unknown location to commune with their god and come back renewed with holy zeal (and are taught the circle while there but sworn to secrecy). Now all the heads of the church who knows the circle have been assassinated at the same time and what remains of the church has hired the party to try and figure out what happened and how to gain access to their secret sanctum again.


That all said, I agree people have built much more expensive, much less practical things so certainly some private ones would get built :smallbiggrin:

[Tubben]

I am pretty sure, there are things in Faerun, that are not explained in the PHB :-)

You can alter the magic of the spells, creating new and permanent versions of spells - like an permanent town portal.
Sure, the spell level would rise, you would have to cast that spell every day for a while, maybe you even need a group of casters to cast that spell everyday for a year. But eveything is possible.

But the Teleport Circles in Citys, temple, guild halls are just, AFAIK, landing points. Every Wizard capable of the Teleport Circle spell can make the circle permanent by casting the spell for 1 year, every day.

Thinking about it, if you have a large room, you could do something like this (fixed destinations) (https://cdn.blizzardwatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Dalaranportals3-Header-082616.jpg)

[Pex]

In Universe, yes. In reality, they're as common as the DM wants them to be.

1) DM has no problem with them. It's only public transportation, not the adventure itself. It's flavor text to how the party gets to as close as they can to where ever they really need to be for the adventure itself.

2) It's a commodity like any other. If a PC can cast the spell, fine. Their choice. For city use the DM sets a price high enough to not be common, at least for levels below 7 or so. If the PCs want to spend their money on it to use it, that's their choice. If they don't, they don't. Whatevs.

3) DM hates teleportation. They don't exist or only in particular cases. Very expensive to use and/or PCs need to do a favor (i.e. adventure hook). PCs have to travel and experience all the random and planned encounters the DM wants them to do before they get to where the actual adventure takes place. Sometimes the encounters they have are because the BBEG sent his minions to stop the PCs. Teleportation ruins their narrative. If a PC casts the spell, at least that's one less spell slot they have for a combat spell, but the PCs better be sure they know where they're going or else there will be "complications" when they arrive.

4) They don't exist because it doesn't fit the campaign, whether the DM hates teleportation or not.

[Tanarii]

On security & secrecy, it's worth noting that the caster of Teleportation Circle needs to know the sigil sequence for the target circle.

If it's a well known and intended to be publicly used circle, it's probably outside the city and carefully watched. If it's a personal use circle for a guild or temple or other association, it's probably carefully concealed, locked up (with the locks on the outside), and watched.

If it's in ancient ruins then it would depend on ifhhe local rules knew about it. Or there were local rulers. If there are, they might even brick it up or dispel it.

Reminds me of the Waygates in Wheel of Time really.

[Vogie]

In that case, there isn't a lot of impetus for most people, even those who could afford it, to make these circles. You'd have to predict that the utility gained by being able to move small numbers of people into your base quickly, so long as one of them is a magic-user of significant power, to outweigh the risk and cost of the security vulnerability the circle makes. The limits of the spells which link to the circle mean that there's very little utility for moving cargo or more than a few people through it.

Not necessarily. By planning where the circle is, you are mitigating the security vulnerability by creating a location where teleportation is allowed and recommended. The ability to focus the teleportation of other nation-states right outside the walls of the city, as a part of the port, right next to the garrison, or another secure place.

The location may even obscure the pattern of the circle of sigils (or even a single sigil, stargate-style), so those who want to use the circle have to actively seek out, be given, or purchase the full sigil 'coordinates' to limit access to the circle.

[Kaibis]

I am pretty sure, there are things in Faerun, that are not explained in the PHB :-)



A much needed reminder... Thank you so much. Of course I can do it the way that I want... I am getting a little too bound by the rules, forgetting that it is my game.

[Kaibis]

Thinking about it, if you have a large room, you could do something like this (fixed destinations) (https://cdn.blizzardwatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Dalaranportals3-Header-082616.jpg)

Exactly what I was envisioning, a transport hub.

[VoxRationis]

Not necessarily. By planning where the circle is, you are mitigating the security vulnerability by creating a location where teleportation is allowed and recommended. The ability to focus the teleportation of other nation-states right outside the walls of the city, as a part of the port, right next to the garrison, or another secure place.

The location may even obscure the pattern of the circle of sigils (or even a single sigil, stargate-style), so those who want to use the circle have to actively seek out, be given, or purchase the full sigil 'coordinates' to limit access to the circle.

Much like with a gate in a city wall, careful design allows you to reduce the vulnerability, but it still exists. Of particular note is the fact that any users of the circle are going to be mid- to high-level, while it is unlikely that you can keep a watch of like level on the circle at all times. Thus, there is an asymmetry in the skill and power of attacker and defender, which balances the asymmetry in positional advantage (which, of course, favors the defender).

[Kaibis]

Much like with a gate in a city wall, careful design allows you to reduce the vulnerability, but it still exists. Of particular note is the fact that any users of the circle are going to be mid- to high-level, while it is unlikely that you can keep a watch of like level on the circle at all times. Thus, there is an asymmetry in the skill and power of attacker and defender, which balances the asymmetry in positional advantage (which, of course, favors the defender).

We need an iris :D :D :D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MpGVeDxlK8

[PhoenixPhyre]

We need an iris :D :D :D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MpGVeDxlK8

I totally borrowedstole the whole Stargate thing for my homebrew universe. Same look, same number of glyphs, even the pedestal style DHD. The main group I had taught a bunch of goblins to put an iris on one when they were up against someone who also knew about them.

Basically I ran them as teleport circle destinations and starting points. Not totally reliable and can't be moved very far and no new ones can be built (they're relics of an older civilization). Some of the cities without them have started to do reception-only teleport circles (by casting teleport circle repeatedly).

The whole (local part of the) network is owned and operated by the International Adventurer's Guild, who charge a steep price for use (hundreds of gold per person for those in the guild, lots for merchants). It's a major source of funding for the guild (besides a share of what adventurers bring back, of course).

[Kaibis]

Oh that is cool. I really love the idea of magic transportation being somewhat common

[PhoenixPhyre]

Oh that is cool. I really love the idea of magic transportation being somewhat common

It was actually a discovery of some players:

I needed a way for a certain NPC to have exited an ancient facility. She wouldn't have been able to reasonably cast teleport (or known any locations as she'd been gone for 200 years and a cataclysm had happened in the mean time). So she needed some type of gate. I'm a Stargate fan, so I borrowed the aesthetic.

The party discovered this, so the existence of these gates became canon. As things progressed, they found places where it made total sense for there have been exits to this network. So I placed exits there. They founded the International Adventurer's Guild (more precisely strong-armed a bunch of nations into doing so), in part because they were the only ones (living, after they killed the NPC because she was evil) who knew how to use the gates.

For 99% of everyone, the gates are a legend. Only the top AG people and a few very well-connected merchants know how it works (plus some researchers).

[VoxRationis]

Don't get me wrong. I like Stargate, and I like the idea of teleportation circle acting in a similar way. I was just pointing out that that's not how the spell actually works as it appears in the PHB.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Don't get me wrong. I like Stargate, and I like the idea of teleportation circle acting in a similar way. I was just pointing out that that's not how the spell actually works as it appears in the PHB.

Oh absolutely. I make no bones about that--teleport circle is a very different thing. In my setting you can use the gates as exits if you cast the spell, but the gates aren't made by casting the spell a bunch. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I was more focusing on the "transport network" part, not the teleport circle part.

[Blacky the Blackball]

Of course, if you want to you can build a whole setting out of the idea of teleport circles.

I once ran a game in a setting where the major sapient races (humans, elves, dwarves, goblins, mind flayers, etc. etc.) didn't all share a world. Instead they had all developed on different planets. In the past, some race had developed magical space flight and had visited the different worlds leaving a network of teleport circles behind as a more convenient method of travel.

This meant that instead of having "the elven forest", for example, the setting had "the elven world", where the entire fauna and flora were different to that on the (default campaign start) human world. Over the centuries, there had been mixing as groups had gone from one world to another to settle, so you did get goblins living on the human world and the like - but since the number of people travelling from world to world was small compared to the number of natives on a particular world, each world kept its own essential character.

It was great fun when the characters had to visit the mind flayer world (where it's eternal twilight because the planet is tidally locked, and all non-mind flayers are thralls) in order to rescue someone from it.

[Tubben]

Don't get me wrong. I like Stargate, and I like the idea of teleportation circle acting in a similar way. I was just pointing out that that's not how the spell actually works as it appears in the PHB.

Aye, not one circle with several destinations (But it would be cool :-)...)

But you should be able to do an circle with an fixed destination permanent, by PHB.


Teleportation Circle

5 Conjuration

Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: 10 ft
Components: V M (Rare chalks and inks infused with precious gems with 50 gp, which the spell consumes)
Duration: 1 round
Classes: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard
As you cast the spell, you draw a 10-foot-diameter circle on the ground inscribed with sigils that link your location to a permanent teleportation circle of your choice whose sigil sequence you know and that is on the same plane of existence as you. A shimmering portal opens within the circle you drew and remains open until the end of your next turn. Any creature that enters the portal instantly appears within 5 feet of the destination circle or in the nearest unoccupied space if that space is occupied.

Many major temples, guilds, and other important places have permanent teleportation circles inscribed somewhere within their confines. Each such circle includes a unique sigil sequence - a string of magical runes arranged in a particular pattern. When you first gain the ability to cast this spell, you learn the sigil sequences for two destinations on the Material Plane, determined by the DM. You can learn additional sigil sequences during your adventures. You can commit a new sigil sequence to memory after studying it for 1 minute.

You can create a permanent teleportation circle by casting this spell in the same location every day for one year. You need not use the circle to teleport when you cast the spell in this way.

You could also plant that many magical bombs and traps into that (teleporter) room, that intruders suffer an fast and clean death, i think atleast :-)

[Kurt Kurageous]

I use this within my world as one of the reasons the Eastern Empire has continued to grow and withstand pressure. The circles are used by the powerful and those who are favored by the powerful, but...

The circles are located outside of the city defenses. Like a mile or so. And guarded with magical and mundane early warning thingies.

Think about it, folks. The cost of setting them up was massive. Many many people were involved in planning. No one thought of the risks? The very casters were completely mute on the possibility of abuse by extraplanar entities or even mundane enemies?

So a circle in a city? Not one that is known to the current powers that be.

Not saying it couldn't happen. Just that it would be a phenomenally bad idea.

[FreddyNoNose]

I guess the question is how much money can it make you? I could easily see making a fort just to put a circle in, under the assumption that people will pay you for access to that region.

How much time and expenses save transporting goods between cities!

For me, this is a side effect with having portals setup. Do you then put limits on it? once per day and/or at a specific time? How could it be used to invade the city? Assassins? Spies? Would the local rulers have any issues with that? Perhaps they say you have to build it away from town.

[mephnick]

I like how the Harpers have these things set up everywhere and hidden in like..farm houses and stuff..when each one is probably worth more than their main base.

[Sigreid]

An easy defense would be to create the circle in a stone enclosure next to an aqueduct, flooded or drained to allow or prevent safe travel.

[Seclora]

Personally, I am fine with using Teleportation Circles as a semi-common form of travel. Making a circle is something most governments and adequately wealthy organizations do, if only for convenience. It's nice to be able to have the court wizard open a portal to one of your outlying estates, or a distant library, and most Wizard's Towers will have one.

In practice, the average Wizard ends up making most of his livelihood off of Sending [Tell the boss the Caravan arrived safely], Teleportation Circle[We need to move these gems to the Central Bank], and Mending[Can you fix this?]. Is it exciting? Not really, but it pays for research, tower upkeep, and training new wizards.

For Gameplay, I allow Inter-Circle teleportation as a ritual. The extra time keeps them from using it to escape combat, and it helps make it cost effective for NPCs. It basically renders the actual spell to Town Portal status, but less exploitable because it's only open for a round.


As for defense. It varies by culture. The Largest Orc community keeps their nearest teleportation circle well away from the city walls, in a cave, on a cliff. Most Human cities keep one inside of an abjured pavillion, or at a guarded Customs House. Quarantine is more of a concern than invasion, since anyone who can afford a Teleportation Circle, can also afford their own Spellcasters, but a plague or invasive species can do far more damage than a strike team can.

[Tanarii]

A 9th level wizard maybe 1-3 in a million. They're not going to be making chump change casting their spells providing common transportation. They might take a year out of their lives to make a couple hundred thou permanently circle that will last beyond their lifetime, but that would be a special commission, or for a organization they are personally a member of.

[Kurt Kurageous]

An easy defense would be to create the circle in a stone enclosure next to an aqueduct, flooded or drained to allow or prevent safe travel.

Great idea. In the bottom of an excavated basin about 10' deep with cisterns to fill instantly. This is how mine were (as of now) built. Thanks for the steal.

Or was it molten lava???

[Seclora]

A 9th level wizard maybe 1-3 in a million.
Alright I'm familiar with this estimate. The frequency of wizards is not set in stone, it is variable by setting. Not all settings have a magic scarcity, we're not all the ridiculously well-known realms. Further, 2 in a million means that there are easily 50 in a stereotypically Medieval European world, upwards of 1,400 in ours right now. That is enough 9th level wizards that at least a few are bound to be interested in a steady, reliable job where they have an army between them and the nearest Dragon.


They're not going to be making chump change casting their spells providing common transportation. They might take a year out of their lives to make a couple hundred thou permanently circle that will last beyond their lifetime, but that would be a special commission, or for a organization they are personally a member of.

I didn't say what they charged either. I didn't say 'every town', I said Governments, cities, Corporations, International banks, and other wealthy organizations. These are people who can afford to pay your Monthly living expenses for a single spell cast, knowing that it will keep them from spending three or four times that hiring guards. Building a portal might cost them giving you somewhere to live, with expenses, and a stipend for research while you're stuck in town for a year. 15k gold for a year of work, if I read earlier commenters math properly, is not chump change, and if you use some of your divinations on making smart investments, employ your other spells while in town, and work on a few magic items while you have the space, you might even make up for the time you didn't spend harassing Dragons.

[Sigreid]

Great idea. In the bottom of an excavated basin about 10' deep with cisterns to fill instantly. This is how mine were (as of now) built. Thanks for the steal.

Or was it molten lava???

Lava by its nature wouldn't depart quickly and cleanly.

[Aembrosia]

You need to be able to defend your teleportation circle at a moments notice from every new drow mage that learns your sequence as one of its two random sigils.

You just bought a house and the contract states your local convenience store holds a lottery for keys to your back door.

[sir_argo]

If a wizard is going to create a permanent, private Teleportation Circle in his tower, he should create it about 1/4" below floor level. Then tile over over it. The circle should still work just fine, but anybody in the room cannot study it and learn the sigil sequence. And if he's really sinister, he could draw sigils on the tile to another permanent circle in a very nasty place (the ledge of an active volcano?). Anybody who studied the sigils would actually be learning the sequence to someplace very, very bad... not the wizard's tower.

[VoxRationis]

You need to be able to defend your teleportation circle at a moments notice from every new drow mage that learns your sequence as one of its two random sigils.

You just bought a house and the contract states your local convenience store holds a lottery for keys to your back door.

The spell description does not say that the two starting sequences are random; consequently, we can say that they are probably of the DM's determination, as the arbitration of matters that are neither randomly generated nor stated by the rules falls squarely into the DM's purview. It would be nonsensical for a newly created circle, whose sigil sequence is never given out, to be learned by up-and-coming mages a continent away for no reason. As such, the sequences initially learned are likely either those of institutions friendly to the caster or those known by whoever the spell was learned from (i.e., a PC who learns teleportation circle after slaying an NPC mage probably learns the sequences that NPC would have used).

[SirGraystone]

A large city like Waterdeep have many teleportation circles, probably one in each major temples, Blackstaff's tower or any powerful wizards, any large college or academy, the harpers have one, the zhentarim may have one hidden somewhere too. The problem for the players is to get access to them.

A wizard with link to the Zhentarim could know there, but is he allow to share it with the rest of the players who don't have link to the black network?

You could have an empire in which the emperor paid to have circle made in all major cities to move troops or resource quickly, or let merchant use them for a price.

[Sigreid]

The spell description does not say that the two starting sequences are random; consequently, we can say that they are probably of the DM's determination, as the arbitration of matters that are neither randomly generated nor stated by the rules falls squarely into the DM's purview. It would be nonsensical for a newly created circle, whose sigil sequence is never given out, to be learned by up-and-coming mages a continent away for no reason. As such, the sequences initially learned are likely either those of institutions friendly to the caster or those known by whoever the spell was learned from (i.e., a PC who learns teleportation circle after slaying an NPC mage probably learns the sequences that NPC would have used).

When I took it it made sense that the circles would he to the church of the Oracle my party had rescued earlier and the world's great library equivalent due to his sage background.

[Pex]

Hermit secret: the sigils for a teleportation circle important for the campaign, possibly one belonging to a BBEG.

[Akolyte01]

I would agree with those figures. The 5th lvl Greater Restoration is recommended to cost 450gp (inc. a 100gp component) - so 350gp for a 5th lvl spell, plus components.

350gp + 50gp = 400gp (cost to pay a wizard to cast the spell once)
400gp * 365 = 146,000gp (or 14,600pp).

~~150,000gp per teleportation circle. That is pricey.

If I am reading correctly the permanent teleportation does two things:
1) it acts as a "permanent circle" (ie no mishaps) for anyone teleporting from anywhere using the 7th lvl teleport spell.
2) it can be permanently linked to an existing circle, to allow continuous travel.

My reading of the rules suggests that for constant two-way travel between two-points, a series of circles would need to be created.
ie.
1. Location A: Perm. Circle A is created (linked to nowhere)
2. Location B: Perm. Circle B is created (linked to A, this allows travel from B-->A, but not A-->B)
3. Location A: Perm. Circle C is created (linked to B, this allows travel from C-->B.

Voila, permanent (free, and unsecured) travel now exists between two locations... at a total cost of 300-450 thousand gp (depending on whether you agree with my logic or not).


It's possible that a church might be able to achieve this for much cheaper, say an old arcanist has taken up resident with the church, he is retired, happy to do research all day, happy to cast one spell per day to make this happen. The cost for the church becomes a lot less, maybe as low as the 20k gp (especially if the old arcanist has decided to make it her mission to travel around the major churches providing this service.

Even with that cost such a link could easily pay for itself by charging merchants a fee to use it. Massive advantages to trade so there'd be huge demand to use it, but since a permanent circle is effectively 'free' after you set it up and has no rules about throughput, you'd end up with a massive ammount of people constantly shuffling through these things. I think the result would effectively be that you'd have teleportation circle 'airports' in nearly every major population center.

I wouldn't want this in my world because it would 'shrink' it significantly, so I"m going to houserule a maximum number of people a circle can transport a day for the extremely slim chance that such a thing ever comes up.

[Zalabim]

Even with that cost such a link could easily pay for itself by charging merchants a fee to use it. Massive advantages to trade so there'd be huge demand to use it, but since a permanent circle is effectively 'free' after you set it up and has no rules about throughput, you'd end up with a massive ammount of people constantly shuffling through these things. I think the result would effectively be that you'd have teleportation circle 'airports' in nearly every major population center.

I wouldn't want this in my world because it would 'shrink' it significantly, so I"m going to houserule a maximum number of people a circle can transport a day for the extremely slim chance that such a thing ever comes up.

A permanent teleportation circle is the circle of sigils that you use as the destination for the portal the spell opens. It isn't a portal itself. It may be possible to create permanent portals, but that's not what the spell is talking about.

[VoxRationis]

Since, as was established earlier, by RAW permanent circles do not serve as points of origin for outgoing teleportations, there is a pretty strict limit on throughput.

Each casting of teleportation circle to actually transport someone has a duration of one round and an area of effect of one 10' circle. Furthermore, the circle only teleports creatures; you can't draw them around pallets of packaged goods. Consequently, anything you wish to transport has to be able to be carried by a single user of the circle; it has to be in their arms or in a backpack or something.

If the outgoing circle were in open ground (which means you're either drawing a new circle for this purpose or you've established the old one in an area which is harder to defend), you can surround it completely with porters heavily laden with packs full of whatever goods you wish to ship. If we go by RAW, there's no limit on throughput based on space at the destination; the spell finds room for people, even if it has to shunt them for miles. This is helpful for cargo capacity, though a little hard to swallow, and your DM might give you the fisheye about this point.

If we surround our circle with porters and have them run directly into the circle, heedless of their fellows (which would probably take some getting used to but isn't the real limiting factor here), we can potentially shove quite a few through the portal before it closes, based on the number who can pass into the circle at any one time and the speed of the porters, multiplied by the duration of the circle (1 round). Now, obviously, the circular area surrounding the teleportation circle itself will provide space for more and more porters as the radius increases, but they're still limited by the space at the perimeter of the circle. Since the diameter of a 10'-radius circle is simply 31.4... feet, and each person takes somewhere between three and five feet of horizontal space, we can model the assemblage of porters as a series of 6-10 individual columns equal to the 1-round movement speed of the individual porters; we can assume they're taking double movement rate, as it's probably a bit much to assume they're rogues with Cunning Action. Since we're probably using Medium humanoids like humans or elves and we want to be transporting cargo, and can therefore assume that we're loading the porters up rather heavily, this means that they can move 40 feet in this round, and each column is made up of 8 individuals, making this assembly 48-80 porters. If we interpret the spell charitably, we can add another 4-5 individuals who were standing in the circle itself when the spell was completed, making a grand total of 52-85 porters.

Depending on whether the basic or variant encumbrance rules are being used, each porter is either carrying 15 times their Strengths score or <10 times their Strength score. Assuming that the destination is friendly to us, their clothes personal effects are probably of negligible weight in this consideration. (If we're trying to reinforce some sort of beachhead, we're going to have to take weight off for the armor, weapons, and other gear of the porters, who are now soldiers. If the destination is non-hostile but money-grubbing, the porters will probably be carrying either significant personal effects or a fair weight of coin in order to eat and sleep once they're at their destination. But let's be charitable and assume the porters are comfortable running through the portal in little more than a loincloth and backpack.

I'm not sure what the assumed population spread is for Strength scores. There's a lot of PC-NPC segregation talk on this forum that doesn't like it if you think NPCs get the same bell curve as players, an interpretation that would mean about 1 in 200 people would have a natural Strength score of 18. Certainly, if you interpret 18 as being equivalent to the end of the bell curve for real-life humans, such individuals are going to be rare indeed. Also, presumably at least some people of such high strength might have interests other than carrying bulk goods while running naked headlong into a portal. I think it's fair to say that, assuming we have a large population to draw from, we can probably find a porter crew with 15s for Strength. If this is the case, than each porter can carry either 225 pounds or 149.9 pounds.

All this comes out to a range of cargo capacity of somewhere between 7,794 and 19,125 pounds, depending on some of the variables in how the spoilered factors play out. This is a considerable capacity, and admittedly more than I had earlier assumed. But...
These figures are based on very generous rulings on not only how the spell works, but of how the setting works. The least of your concerns is finding a large crew of strong men comfortable not only with being sent hundreds or thousands of miles away with nothing but the clothes on their backs, but also in charging at full speed toward a central point, surrounded by literal tons of flesh and cargo crashing in towards the same point. We also assume:
You have a 9th-level caster, minimum, willing and able to cast the spell for you;
Said caster and the crew of porters are capable of coordinating to the point where they can time their respective actions to the second (actually, rather more precisely than a second; since there are more people in each column of porters than there are seconds in a round, a fraction of a second could make the difference between someone making the deadline or not);
The outgoing circle is in an open area where people are able to converge on it from all sides, unhindered by the environment;
The teleportation circle spell actually is as generous as it says it is with regards to finding safe destinations for all travelers using the spell;
Momentum does not carry through while teleporting in a way that would cause people to crash into one another;
The local environment surrounding the destination does not require the porters to carry anything for their own safety and/or comfort.
The caster of the spell has some way of avoiding the human freight train scheduled to barrel into them just as they finish the incantation.

In addition, we must consider that only goods which can be carried by individuals can be transported in this way. Heavy logs, for instance, wouldn't work; the first person carrying the log would be teleported as soon as they entered the circle, either taking some part of the log with them or leaving the rest of their compatriots in the lurch, such that eventually the remaining porters would be incapable of holding their cargo. One way or another, you wouldn't end up with whole logs on the other side. Consequently, we are limited to transporting goods which are discrete, but below (and ideally some factor of) the carrying capacity of an individual porter, or else to those goods which are basically continuously variable masses (sand, water, grain, etc.).
The primary sticking point is the assumption that we can time this endeavor out to the point where the porters are running full speed and hit the portal at just the beginning of its existence. I feel like, were you to broach the subject with DMs in real play, most would rule that the porters would probably have to walk, rather than run, and would have less-than-perfect timing, with the effect that total capacity is less than half of that earlier projected.


One way or another, this ends up being a fair amount of cargo, but with some important limitations to keep in mind, and even under ideal conditions, there's a hard maximum capacity.

[Tanarii]

Or you can just assume that it can't reasonably transport more than a dozen people at the outside, and that's being generous for a six second window.

And that dues to the extemely limited transport capacity, need for one of a very limited number of high level casters from across the entire kingdom, and the cost of casting ... that if it was used for trade at all, it would be done rarely and only for extremely high end goods. Very valuable (and small) works of art, gems, and magical items. Stuff like that.

[sir_argo]

Or you can just assume that it can't reasonably transport more than a dozen people at the outside, and that's being generous for a six second window.

I kinda like that rule even though it doesn't adhere to RL or game mechanics. Just because I think 12 is a reasonable number. In game mechanics, you can fit 80 people within 30' of movement to a portal. If you go through the initiative order, all 80 would get to move into the portal before it closes. IRL, you could literally have those 80 people form a line and all would be able to sprint through during a 6 second period of time.

But I really hate that stuff. I like 12 people. Very reasonable, and makes gameplay easy.

[Tanarii]

IRL, you could literally have those 80 people form a line and all would be able to sprint through during a 6 second period of time.
I doubt anywhere close to 80 could happen. I chose 12 on the basis that it's pretty reasonable. More than that and people will trip, fall, get in each other's way, and generally not succeed in getting through the portal.

80 seems like a goblin conga line in action. Or I guess it's the Healing Spirit conga line now. :smallyuk:

[Contrast]

Even if you assume you can fit a lot of people, you probably wouldn't want to.

A 20th level wizard could cast it nine times a day (so assuming you want to sleep in your bed at the end of the night that's four trips per day).

Even if we're assuming quite a lot of people taking what they can carry on their own that's a couple of wagon loads at the cost of hiring a 20th level wizard to burn all his high level spell slots for the day.

That produce better be damn expensive to be worth it. At which point it seems unlikely you're going to want your transporters to be sprinting around and jostling each other while carrying them.