Who should get what? A role play vs roll play thread

[Calthropstu]

In an ideal party, every single skill the party would need is covered. But in my games, there tends to be massive gaps in party skill allocations because "my character has no reason to know that stuff."

An adventure path I am running HEAVILY punishes the party for not having obscure skills like perform strings, perform dance, profession sailor etc.

So, do you consider missing skills in the party a serious problem? Or do you consider it a role play opportunity? (ie: questing for information, trying to find something out through npcs etc)

Personally, I think putting information divulgement in the hands of the gm is not neccesarily a bad thing. Putting information down to a straight die roll (or worse still pumping knowledges to the point where you know literally everything) never exactly sat well with me.

[heavyfuel]

While I have a hard time picturing a situation where Perform (String Instrument) would be a necessary asset, skills like Profession (Sailor) can be worked around by hiring NPCs at the low low cost of 3 SP/day

And yeah, Knowledge DCs are way too low for anyone that is investing moderately on the skills.

[Crake]

Historically, character may have no reason to pick up those kinds of skills, but at the same time, if they know that they're going to need them in the near future, their characters could actively learn those skills, putting ranks into them. Of course, if you just suddenly spring the checks on them, yeah, it wouldn't make any sense, but even in that circumstance, can they not simply go hire a specialist NPC? Rules for skill specific specialist NPCs are in the DMG2 if you want to peruse them. If they need to sail somewhere for example, why half ass it themselves when they can hire professional sailors? If they need to entertain a monarch, why play the violin themselves when they can just hire a minstrel?


While I have a hard time picturing a situation where Perform (String Instrument) would be a necessary asset, skills like Profession (Sailor) can be worked around by hiring NPCs at the low low cost of 3 SP/day

3sp/day will get you a level 1 npc with 1-4 ranks, and little to no other investment in the skill. It's trained labour, but not a specialist. For a bonus of +1-5 (maybe they have a 12 or 13 in the skill's ability score), the players can almost always do better simply off their ability scores alone.

[Darth Ultron]

I'm not a fan of Roll Play.

I really don't like the ''ok, the players can just sit back and relax...but have the characters roll to get a clever idea" or something like that.

And I want engage the players. I want to describe something like a book shelf and have the players figure out, for real, something about it. Not the ''my character rolled a 100, DM tell me stuff."

[RoboEmperor]

Spellcasters can pass every skill check with no investment.
Clerics alone have divine insight and that 3.0 webcontent spell that gives them like +30 to a skill check.

[Kelb_Panthera]

In an ideal party, every single skill the party would need is covered. But in my games, there tends to be massive gaps in party skill allocations because "my character has no reason to know that stuff."

Ultimately, no party can cover every possible circumstance. However, the most common obstacles can all be bypassed, albeit with some expense and difficulty, by someone other than the character of the "intended" role (ie; traps v rogues) if they're not excessively pressed for time and resources. There's always another way, even if it's putting a pickaxe to a wall or just bulling through and "damn the consequences."


An adventure path I am running HEAVILY punishes the party for not having obscure skills like perform strings, perform dance, profession sailor etc.

That's just bad writing. Still, the right summoned/ called outsider or payed NPC can get around it. Alternately, depending on what it is for which these checks are acting as a lock, finding some other way past -should- be possible but I can't say what without spoilers.


So, do you consider missing skills in the party a serious problem? Or do you consider it a role play opportunity? (ie: questing for information, trying to find something out through npcs etc)

It's no problem at all. Not for the DM anyway. Whatever gap there is in the PCs capabilities is an opportunity to challenge them -if- it's done well. The most common version of this is littering an area with traps when there's no one with trapfinding or the rogue didn't invest in search:

From your end; place some sign of the trap to spot (at a reasonable DC) so that it's not just a total blind-side (unless you want the first trap to be a minor resource drain and sign-post reading "Here there be traps") such as the sliced, crushed, or pierced bones of previous victims.

From their end; once they're aware of traps being present they can poke the road ahead with 10ft poles, summon creatures, hurl stones or fire arrows where they think a trigger would be if they were placing traps, etc. Then there's the good-old magical aping of skills option like scrolls and wands of find traps and generic skill boosters.


Personally, I think putting information divulgement in the hands of the gm is not neccesarily a bad thing. Putting information down to a straight die roll (or worse still pumping knowledges to the point where you know literally everything) never exactly sat well with me.

You don't give the fighter's player crap for the fact his fighter is able to sword-fight, don't give the wizard's player guff because the wizard knows things. It's part of what they've built the character to do so let them do it.

That said; you determine exactly what -facts- are known from knowledge checks (outside of monster IDs and abilities) so give them the facts that could reasonably be in scholarly circulation and leave it to the player to correlate those facts with the situation at hand. Special mention to know (local) and gather information; these represent a body of rapidly changing information and, as such, it's not inappropriate for even successful checks to result in incomplete or partially incorrect information. Info drawn from the gather information skill can even be outright wrong if the subject is sowing misinformation. Just don't abuse this idea.

[heavyfuel]

3sp/day will get you a level 1 npc with 1-4 ranks, and little to no other investment in the skill. It's trained labour, but not a specialist. For a bonus of +1-5 (maybe they have a 12 or 13 in the skill's ability score), the players can almost always do better simply off their ability scores alone.

That's why you hire a bunch of them, this way they can all Aid Another for +30 bonus or so.

It's hardly unreasonable for a ship to have a crew of over 15 people

[Crake]

That's why you hire a bunch of them, this way they can all Aid Another for +30 bonus or so.

It's hardly unreasonable for a ship to have a crew of over 15 people

Stormwrack happens to have the rules on how ship sailing works, and it doesn't work that way :smalltongue:

[tiercel]

If there is a reasonable communication of what is to be needed, then I don’t see a real problem. Most parties aren’t necessarily going to be true omnibuses. (For example, how much investment is any character going to put in Perform skills beyond either PrC/feat requirements or a single maxed out Perform skill for a bard? —This is a pet peeve with many magical instruments, by the way.)

In the case of a whole-campaign-critical skill (e.g. “pretty much this whole campaign is nautical”), players should just know this at character creation, so they can cope with the demand for relevant skill checks, or at least have the CHOICE to do things “the hard way.”

In the case of a plot-point skill check, as long as characters have the chance to adapt in game, it’s reasonable. (If there’s no reason to believe a campaign is nautical, but one adventure is, PCs should be able to hire or otherwise acquire an NPC captain with sufficient skill, and not suffer a story penalty for doing so — or, if PCs choose to bull ahead or seek an unconventional solution, then consequences thereof are their own adventure.)

But if an adventure suddenly just requires the PCs, mid boss-fight, to pass a Profession (Miller) DC 30 check or the BBEG escapes, then.... no. Likewise, if a plot-critical or even just Really Cool module-included magical instrument requires a character to have 12 ranks in Perform (hurdy-gurdy), then.... nope.

[Calthropstu]

If there is a reasonable communication of what is to be needed, then I don’t see a real problem. Most parties aren’t necessarily going to be true omnibuses. (For example, how much investment is any character going to put in Perform skills beyond either PrC/feat requirements or a single maxed out Perform skill for a bard? —This is a pet peeve with many magical instruments, by the way.)

In the case of a whole-campaign-critical skill (e.g. “pretty much this whole campaign is nautical”), players should just know this at character creation, so they can cope with the demand for relevant skill checks, or at least have the CHOICE to do things “the hard way.”

In the case of a plot-point skill check, as long as characters have the chance to adapt in game, it’s reasonable. (If there’s no reason to believe a campaign is nautical, but one adventure is, PCs should be able to hire or otherwise acquire an NPC captain with sufficient skill, and not suffer a story penalty for doing so — or, if PCs choose to bull ahead or seek an unconventional solution, then consequences thereof are their own adventure.)

But if an adventure suddenly just requires the PCs, mid boss-fight, to pass a Profession (Miller) DC 30 check or the BBEG escapes, then.... no. Likewise, if a plot-critical or even just Really Cool module-included magical instrument requires a character to have 12 ranks in Perform (hurdy-gurdy), then.... nope.

It was kind of along these lines. The module forced the party to make high dc perform, ride and a host of other obscure checks. Failure meant harsh sanctions within the city. And there was literally NOTHING indicating this could ever be a thing. The bard they were traveling with couldn't make the dcs on a nat 20 roll.
The party missed out on a fair amount of treasure because of it.
Btw, it's a pf module, but I'm not labeling this thread pf because it's kind of universal.
Regardless, I expect people going underground to pick up books on aberrations making knowledge dungeoneering quite relevant. But when they play a group of drow unexpectedly teleported to a forest, I do not expect to hear ""oh, but my character has been to the surface before so he has knowledge nature and knowledge geography and so I can tell what stuff is."
Yes, poor writing abounds in the adventure paths. I modify the stupider sections, fixing what I can. But that's not what I am asking here.

I am just curious how people go about skill selection between party members.

[tiercel]

I am just curious how people go about skill selection between party members.

In my experience most parties I've played with or DM'd for try to make sure obvious skills are covered at least once (social skills, perception skills, at least the major monster-ID Knowledge skills, usually trapfinding, maybe Survival - especially at low levels - etc), but nobody worries too much if there's something missing, because it's just its own sort of challenge (which can usually be beaten by sufficient application of magic of one kind or another anyway).

In part, that's less of purely skill metagaming and more generally "party role" - while there doesn't exactly have to be Fighter/Cleric/Mage/Rogue in the party, that general sort of mix tends to happen, and mean that most of the major skill bases are more or less covered, and that there are usually enough spellcasters around to fake what is missing.

That said, it would be interesting sometime to be in a more focused sort of party (one where all members had at least some significant social skills, or all had some stealth skills) rather than relegating that to mostly one, sometimes two PCs.

[RoboEmperor]

I am just curious how people go about skill selection between party members.

At our table we don't really care. We have players putting points into profession:brawling and the like for fun. Punishing these people for wasting skill points for noncombat or nonplot related skills detract from the fun.

As mentioned before if we have a plot related skill check that none of us possess then we simply use magic to beat it, be it by boosting our skill check or by bypassing the encounter entirely either by teleport, scrying, divining, or just by destroying everything in sight with a wrecking ball.

[Calthropstu]

At our table we don't really care. We have players putting points into profession:brawling and the like for fun. Punishing these people for wasting skill points for noncombat or nonplot related skills detract from the fun.

As mentioned before if we have a plot related skill check that none of us possess then we simply use magic to beat it, be it by boosting our skill check or by bypassing the encounter entirely either by teleport, scrying, divining, or just by destroying everything in sight with a wrecking ball.

Heh, none of these were an option. It wasn't combat related, and starting a combat was unwise. No spells were available to boost such checks. Assists weren't possible, and hiring others to do it for you defeated the whole purpose.

It was really a "suck it" kind of moment.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Alright, now I'm really curious. Think you could put the gist of the scenario in some spoiler tags?

[Calthropstu]

Alright, now I'm really curious. Think you could put the gist of the scenario in some spoiler tags?


So the party comes out of more than a year traipsing over the ice of what is essentially the north pole of golarion.

They come to the first large city they've seen in months and are welcomed by the prince of the city to visit the palace.

The prince becomes enamored with these very obvious strangers who have different skin color and orders a 7 day feast. At each day of the feast, the party is "requested" to perform some sort of display from their foreign lands. Failure or refusal results in the city's inhabitants refusing to deal with you because the prince so orders it.

They need 3 different checks each day. One is a mounted archery attempt, and no one had ride. Another was perform oratory, which also no one had. Another was a dc 35 perform string instrument check. Another was a wrestling match which they only won from a druid turning into a bear. He bearly pulled it off too. (Pun intended)

Each day, if you succeed in impressing the prince, you get a very nice reward. One is a +1 flaming weapon. Having been traipsing through bareen wasteland fighting hordes of enemies with zero treasure, money is SORELY needed.
On the last day, the prince proposes to one of the women in the party (it turned out to be the wizard's cohort).

[RoboEmperor]

Why isn't charm person an option?

How about engineering some sort of blackmail scenario? Kidnapping?

Diplomacy?

How about the prince's advisors? Charming them and the like I mean.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So the party comes out of more than a year traipsing over the ice of what is essentially the north pole of golarion.

They come to the first large city they've seen in months and are welcomed by the prince of the city to visit the palace.

The prince becomes enamored with these very obvious strangers who have different skin color and orders a 7 day feast. At each day of the feast, the party is "requested" to perform some sort of display from their foreign lands. Failure or refusal results in the city's inhabitants refusing to deal with you because the prince so orders it.

They need 3 different checks each day. One is a mounted archery attempt, and no one had ride. Another was perform oratory, which also no one had. Another was a dc 35 perform string instrument check. Another was a wrestling match which they only won from a druid turning into a bear. He bearly pulled it off too. (Pun intended)

Each day, if you succeed in impressing the prince, you get a very nice reward. One is a +1 flaming weapon. Having been traipsing through bareen wasteland fighting hordes of enemies with zero treasure, money is SORELY needed.
On the last day, the prince proposes to one of the women in the party (it turned out to be the wizard's cohort).

Seems to me the obvious answer on the DM side of the screen would have been to simply change the challenges for similar things the PCs were spec'ed for if you wanted it to be "gimme" type stuff.

On the player's side, a good diplomacy or bluff to explain that their homeland has no such traditions could maybe sub in for the mounted bit or the string instrument checks or at least grant circumstance bonuses to the checks for making an impression on the prince. Alternately there's the (perhaps surreptitious) application of skill boosting spells to consider. Although, I'm not sure why ride is a problem? It's dc 5 and not trained only; unless the contest was a simulated combat? I'll assume the PCs have no way of knowing they've missed out, else old-fashioned thievery could be on the table.

[Quertus]

So, do you consider missing skills in the party a serious problem? Or do you consider it a role play opportunity?

Actually, I think I'd consider a party that always had every skill covered more likely to be a serious problem. Like unto The Determinator.


I am just curious how people go about skill selection between party members.

Quertus, my signature Academia mage for whom this account is named, has Run, Endurance, and Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Shuriken. Clearly, I believe in picking what makes sense for the character, with little to no regard for effectiveness.

-----

As to the problem at hand...

um, what? Why would the Prince possibly be stupid enough to want to learn about their lands... By subjecting them to things from his lands? It should have been the PCs choosing to do things / choosing what things to do, and needing to make impressive DC checks at their chosen things in order to impress the Prince.

At least, that's my take on things.

[Calthropstu]

Actually, I think I'd consider a party that always had every skill covered more likely to be a serious problem. Like unto The Determinator.



Quertus, my signature Academia mage for whom this account is named, has Run, Endurance, and Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Shuriken. Clearly, I believe in picking what makes sense for the character, with little to no regard for effectiveness.

-----

As to the problem at hand...

um, what? Why would the Prince possibly be stupid enough to want to learn about their lands... By subjecting them to things from his lands? It should have been the PCs choosing to do things / choosing what things to do, and needing to make impressive DC checks at their chosen things in order to impress the Prince.

At least, that's my take on things.

I agree. The whole scenario was... odd. It was more about describing the orient and having the party participate in oriental style events to flaunt the culture difference. Not the best way to go about it, but I didn't write it. I have been changing more and more of the adventure path of late though, and pretty much am having half the last book go out the window.

Seriously, the bbeg is a EMPORER with ZERO arcane support. It boggles my mind how they could leave such a gaping hole in the defense of an entire nation.

[Yogibear41]

That's why you hire a bunch of them, this way they can all Aid Another for +30 bonus or so.


PHB says that a DM can rule that only so many people can aid another on a skill check, so he could easily cap it at +6, or +4 or even +2.

[Gnaeus]

Regardless, I expect people going underground to pick up books on aberrations making knowledge dungeoneering quite relevant. But when they play a group of drow unexpectedly teleported to a forest, I do not expect to hear ""oh, but my character has been to the surface before so he has knowledge nature and knowledge geography and so I can tell what stuff is.".

Why on earth not? I teach my kids knowledge geography and nature about places they have never visited. And my kids are smart, but probably not 60 (let alone 500) year old drow wizard smart. If I were running a drow House, and the int junkies failed to ID common fauna or identify raid targets if we found ourselves above ground, the next generation of drow would be studying maps made from their skin. If my DM told me I couldn’t use common knowledges on a Drow, I’d have some very nasty things to say to and about that DM.

I suppose a small penalty for things that changed within the last decade or so may be appropriate. If the village wasn’t there when they made the maps or when uncle dagbert last went raiding, if it wasn’t major enough to get picked up by scouts and updated.

How do the Stark kids in GoT know house words and sigils? They haven’t been to any tourneys or outside the north when the series started. Because the Maester teaches them stuff that they couldn’t learn directly, that they may find useful in the future. And gets mad when Bran can’t answer. Of course, in a drow house that education may come from a upworlder slave. But I wouldn’t want to be that slave if a raiding party came back after his information was bad.

[Cosi]

Personally, I think putting information divulgement in the hands of the gm is not neccesarily a bad thing. Putting information down to a straight die roll (or worse still pumping knowledges to the point where you know literally everything) never exactly sat well with me.

The ability to have, well, abilities that let you find out information that advances the plot is an important part of not being railroaded. The players should be able to find out information by rolling dice or casting divinations, just as they should be able to defeat enemies by rolling dice or casting evocations. "Guess what the DM wants you to do to unlock the next cutscene" is a lot less fun than DMs seem to think it is.

[P.F.]

For what its worth, my gaming group frequently discovers we have some sort of collective deficiency which itself then presents a further challenge which we had not anticipated. While we do sometimes co-ordinate our Knowledge: miscellaneous and social/stealth/utility skills, we're adaptable enough to work around any gaps in our abilities.

There was the time, for example, that we discovered no one in the group was strong enough to climb a rope, making it significantly more difficult to reach the levitating doorway at the top. No time to go back to town for a 30-foot ladder, too poor to have bought potions of fly, no way to approach it from above or go around, and so on. Eventually, we determined that we could make our rope into a knotted rope, which would allow the least weak character to climb up and scout around for us.

Or there was the time we discovered no one had bothered to take trapfinding or disable device. Fortunately, my character had the foresight to bring an 11-foot pole, and we used it and my Lucerne hammer to probe the floor and walls, and to open doors respectively. Of course we had to blunder into the first trap, and some of the subsequent ones had sufficient range to still hit us.

And of course there was the time no one had the relevant knowledge skill to identify the monsters that had ambushed us. We had to throw everything but the kitchen sink at them to figure out what would get past their formidable array of DR and immunities. In the end, only the NPC leader died during that encounter.

Ultimately, I come down on the side of role-playing: sometimes the character's (or party's) weaknesses are more interesting than their strengths. I probably wouldn't remember any of these encounters if we had just hit the "Easy button" and moved on.