[Spheres of Power] Wraith base class Playtest

[stack]

Hello, this is stack. You may remember be from such playtests as "the Convoker's Handbook", "the Destroyer's Handbook," "the Shapeshifter's Handbook," and "Spheres of Might." I come to you today to invite your feedback on a new Spheres of Power based base class, the wraith.
playtest 0.2 (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DZmfPEE8Ux84mcgLOid-Hdp3BIjrD40I2uT9mV6DfP4/edit#heading=h.3rdcrjn)

I want to state right up front: the class is a bit odd and uses mechanics that are not usually seen at low levels nor as major focuses of PCs. Incorporeality and possession are tricky to balance. I believe the basis of the class is reasonably sound, but it definitely needs table time.

Further material may be added later.

Hold nothing (pertinent) back. Thanks for all your help.

EDIT
Took much longer than originally planned, but version 0.2 is viewable at the above link.

I have a couple more archetype ideas in the works, but wanted to get the base class revisions in the open.

playtest 0.1 (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1wenEL3homyM33sBVwsBKRBqRtBrmpkXAnzklv9cLa 50)

[Nyaa]

On the one hand, Path of the Despoiler could really use a way to gather vermin around him to form a swarm, as giant vermin are so rare he will probably use creatures suffering from poison etc most of time. On the other hand, possessing an almost infinite (in proper environments) supply of swarms sounds like a nightmare to balance, and Path of the Poltergeist gets swarm possession only at 14.

Phantasm seems to miss "Path of the " part.

[stack]

On the one hand, Path of the Despoiler could really use a way to gather vermin around him to form a swarm, as giant vermin are so rare he will probably use creatures suffering from poison etc most of time. On the other hand, possessing an almost infinite (in proper environments) supply of swarms sounds like a nightmare to balance, and Path of the Poltergeist gets swarm possession only at 14.

Phantasm seems to miss "Path of the " part.

Phantasm text fixed.

Good thinking on a swarm option; other paths have essentially unlimited material for possession, so that by itself shouldn't be a problem, but swarm do present challenges. Making a note to work on it.

[QuadraticGish]

I'm glancing through as I go, so please tell me if I'm missing something. At least with how possessing seems to work it does appear to promote dumping your most of your physical stats, especially if you get to start at any point higher than 1st level. Any chances of allowing a PC with high physical attributes to affect the form they possess? I do find it odd that their signature class feature is delayed until 2nd level, pretty much leaving them with not much to work with.

Path of the Anima is pretty good early on, but it does seem to peter out a bit at mid levels. It also looks like that Air and Earth elementals are generally the best choices in most situations due to their availablility and movement abilities, leaving Fire and Water to be situational at best(it almost seems like you have to start a forest fire for a large and better fire elemental). Shouldn't the possessed elemental chart begin at 2nd level rather 1st since a PC doesn't obtain possession until then?

Path of the Corruptor: I love this, but what happens if someone tries to possess the undead you are already possessing? Or what happens if one of the various methods of controlling undead are used against you(command undead feat, command undead spell, command undead talent ect...)?

Path of the Poltergeist: Any chance for benefits by possessing your allies' equipment?

Improved Path Sphere: This seems like an autochoice in most given situations. Why not just make it a class feature like most other mid-casters?

Lengthened Control: For a lot of paths, I'd consider this a really good choice to take early on.

Greater Possession: Would it be possible for there to be an alternate choice that's like Lengthened Control for those that prefer singular possession only?

[stack]

Both wraith form and possession are what I would consider 'signature' abilities. It would be too much to grant them both at level 1. Wraith form comes first because when I first wrote the class you had to be in wraith form to possess something, which I later cut.

Dumping physical stats is an issue; you still want CON since damage carries over and you won't always have something to possess or spell points to use possession (less of an issue at later levels). I wouldn't want to buff strong hosts, but providing some benefit to hosts with lower stats might be worthwhile.

Air and earth would be my first choices, yes. Nature of the beast I suppose.

There should be general text for conflicting control/possessions. If there isn't there will be soon.

For possessing allies' equipment, I had thought about that some. Poltergeist already gets a pretty good deal (animating objects plus the rules in the enhancer's handbook for animating sections of structures means you almost always have a host handy), so I am not sure I would put any special buffs there. Might need its own path or an archetype (an archetype would need more than JUST that, obviously). Almost all of my archetype ideas thus far have become paths instead.

Improved path sphere is a good pick, though one you could put off for a bit. I originally had it in the base, but decided to hold it back for the time being. Figured you already were getting potentially powerful abilities at low levels, adding full CL in your main sphere didn't seem required too, but that may change.

Lengthened control is definitely a strong pick if you have a path that creates or has easy access to willing hosts.

Greater possession, if I had a compelling option I would consider doing something else here.

[khadgar567]

love the wraith class but it needs some way to posses longer and longer as wraith is best as scouting as you gonna chain possessing mooks to scout the entire dungeon. if he need to get rid of some one he can posses a fool and pop a cap on target use amnesia to get perfect scapegoat to leave the vicinity bardic performing carmen for all he cares.
but we realy need a feat to make that possession last longer both for willing and unwilling targets.

[stack]

love the wraith class but it needs some way to posses longer and longer as wraith is best as scouting as you gonna chain possessing mooks to scout the entire dungeon. if he need to get rid of some one he can posses a fool and pop a cap on target use amnesia to get perfect scapegoat to leave the vicinity bardic performing carmen for all he cares.
but we realy need a feat to make that possession last longer both for willing and unwilling targets.

Lengthened control is already there.
Upon successfully using his possession ability, the wraith may spend a spell point as a free action to increase the duration of the possession to 1 minute per class level for an unwilling target and 10 minutes per caster level for a willing target. If using the ghostly ride or object ride talents, the duration increases to 1 hour per class level.

[khadgar567]

Lengthened control is already there.
Upon successfully using his possession ability, the wraith may spend a spell point as a free action to increase the duration of the possession to 1 minute per class level for an unwilling target and 10 minutes per caster level for a willing target. If using the ghostly ride or object ride talents, the duration increases to 1 hour per class level.
I know we have moderate time possession what this class needs ability to posses for hours so we can enjoy the benefits of hijacking mooks to do our job not rolling perception check every damn minute to keep in control of the puppet. or at least a way to get rid of saves or making harder to lose control.

[NomGarret]

Hours at a time is a lot, if for no other reason than that's a lot of screen time that doesn't involve the other players. I wonder what a concentration option would look like, though?

[dude123nice]

I know we have moderate time possession what this class needs ability to posses for hours so we can enjoy the benefits of hijacking mooks to do our job not rolling perception check every damn minute to keep in control of the puppet. or at least a way to get rid of saves or making harder to lose control.

I have an idea that i would like to propose: what if knocking a target unconscious beforehand would stop them from checking every minute, provided you didn't put the host through any strenuous activity such as combat or using physical skills.

[Dragolord]

Hours at a time is a lot, if for no other reason than that's a lot of screen time that doesn't involve the other players. I wonder what a concentration option would look like, though?


I have an idea that i would like to propose: what if knocking a target unconscious beforehand would stop them from checking every minute, provided you didn't put the host through any strenuous activity such as combat or using physical skills.

Both good ideas. It does seem strange that the class's two signature powers are both of such short duration.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Now that could make for a good dream-themed archetype! The Sleepwalker or Sandman, maybe? Can only possess sleeping targets but as long as you don’t do anything strenuous and no one wakes them intentionally the duration is uncapped.

[EldritchWeaver]

Dumping physical stats is an issue; you still want CON since damage carries over and you won't always have something to possess or spell points to use possession (less of an issue at later levels). I wouldn't want to buff strong hosts, but providing some benefit to hosts with lower stats might be worthwhile.

Maybe saying the the better of the physical stats is used? That way weaker forms only would get a potential buff.

[stack]

Using wraith physical stats has the downside of requiring that much more recalculation on the fly though. I am concerned that possession will be slow at the table.

[Mezzaluna]

I am concerned that possession will be slow at the table.

If the signature ability, the very thing that the class is designed to be used for, might be awkward in play, then its mechanics should be streamlined, rather than its use restricted.

I agree with the above comments in that the class feels too restricted in its access to its defining features that make it unique. When possession is so short term, it encourages being very conservative with its use, and when the majority of Wraith abilities are about using possession, the rest of the time you feel like you're just playing a midcaster with no class features.

A few possible ideas that could help with that:
-Increase uses/use time of possession
-Give the Wraith more interesting class features that don't depend on possession to use, so it has more identity while outside of possession (maybe tie them into paths like incanter specializations?)
-Make possession cooldown-based instead of defaulting to a spell point cost (with the option to spend a spell point to bypass the cooldown)

[khadgar567]

If the signature ability, the very thing that the class is designed to be used for, might be awkward in play, then its mechanics should be streamlined, rather than its use restricted.

I agree with the above comments in that the class feels too restricted in its access to its defining features that make it unique. When possession is so short term, it encourages being very conservative with its use, and when the majority of Wraith abilities are about using possession, the rest of the time you feel like you're just playing a midcaster with no class features.

A few possible ideas that could help with that:
-Increase uses/use time of possession
-Give the Wraith more interesting class features that don't depend on possession to use, so it has more identity while outside of possession (maybe tie them into paths like incanter specializations?)
-Make possession cooldown-based instead of defaulting to a spell point cost (with the option to spend a spell point to bypass the cooldown)
Looks like we all agreed on class needs long enough time on possession part and any knowledge on how possession effected by spells like spell focus or other spells. and mind sphere path option feels wrong for me as mind meshes well with possessing and controlling someone while path requires you to go intimidate build just to get its benifit instead of lets say any creature under your charms counts as willing creature for possession like ability which actually uses mind spheres core focus as path ability.

[stack]

Feedback is noted. Given the the power of possession effects, I am not going to be quick to buff it. This is only week 1 of the playtest after all.

Added the swarmheart archetype, because I have a reputation to keep.:smallbiggrin:

[EarthSeraphEdna]

For the past few hours, I have been trying to build a 5th-level wraith. I like to think that a single-classed character should be 100% competent and problem-free by 5th-level, but I have been struggling with the wraith. I have identified a few problems with it.

1. The wraith is heavily bound to limited daily resources. Wraith form has a pathetic rounds per day of class level + Charisma modifier. Possession costs a spell point for a measly 1 round per level (or 1 minute per level against a willing/unconscious target). With a purchase of the lengthened control haunt, possession costs two spell points for 1 minute per caster level (or 10 minutes per caster level against a willing/unconscious target).
Meanwhile, a fey adept is a High Caster with an independent pool of shadow points (or word points, for a word witch).

2. Mid-combat possession is mediocre. It requires spell points, it requires the wraith to get up close, it requires path possession abilities to be feasible against various targets, and those path possession abilities still make it a huge hassle to possess aberrations, dragons, fey, humanoids, magical beasts, monstrous humanoids, outsiders, and plants. Even then, possession still has a Hit Dice limit.
Meanwhile, a fey adept slings out high-impact effects with no questions asked, fueled by either spell points or shadow points (or word points, for a word witch).

3. A wraith is pushed towards the combat role of a much worse wild-shaping druid from 2nd to 11th level. The wraith flails around with the possessed creature's natural attacks from 2nd to 5th level, and then upgrades to a pouncer from 6th to 11th level. That would be great if it was not such a hassle to actually stay in such a "combat form." Instead, the wraith has to pay spell points and either contend with aggravatingly short durations, or find some way to treat a creature as willing/unconscious for the sake of a longer duration. It is extremely janky and user-unfriendly.

I cannot build a 5th-level wraith that I would look at and say, "This is definitely worth considering in place of a fey adept or a sphere druid."

Is there some secret to real ultimate power that I am missing about the wraith?

At the moment, the only truly remarkable use of possession I can see is using the path of the corruptor to possess a high-CR creature's corpse, and even then, that might not actually be legal due to the Hit Dice cap of the baseline possession class feature.

As it currently stands, the wraith could be turned into a High Caster with one magic talent per level, much like the fey adept, and given an independent pool of possession uses per day. Possession would still be terribly inconvenient to use, but at least it could be justified as a side show to the High Casting, much like the fey adept.

[AlienFromBeyond]

To add to ESE's post, the ally focused Path of the Ancestor seems so much more awful than the rest. Instead of converting an enemy to your side, you're merely taking yourself out of the picture for very little, it's like a really bad fusion. The "free" aegis is nice, but that only kicks in at level 8, and really is just there to make up for the fact that possession costs a spell point and doesn't last as long as casting the aegis yourself on the ally! Sure you can still use magic (assuming you've done the work needed for that) but you could have done that while not possessing the ally while also offering an additional target and pool of hit points to distribute hits a bit more (this only gets addressed at level 14). Never mind that say a 4 man party turning into a 3 man in terms of bodies means your presence on the battlefield is much reduced and being surrounded or flanked becomes a real concern then. At the very least Path of the Ancestor should be able to target the host with effects that would only normally target/affect yourself, much like what the Awakened Weapon of a Spirit-Wielder can do (this allows things like using Steal Time to give the host a standard action). The path should be Ghostly Ride++, not just a free Ghostly Ride Wraith Haunt pick.

[QuadraticGish]

I just spent the last couple of hours myself making a 5th level Path of the Corrupter Wraith and honestly I think the results are less than stellar. No matter how I look at it, I can't justify every using possession at this point. Why possess a dead body for a spell point with for such a small duration when I can just use Reanimate enhanced by Lingering Necromancy? Sure I could become a super powered skeleton for a few minutes, or I can just reanimate it as a super powered skeleton and use for a few hours with added action economy bonus. Add in Extend Spell, and he's here all day. If Advanced Talents are allowed, I could just have a permanent minion instead. The Possession advanced talent is available as soon as 10th CL with 2 prerequisite talents and is a lot less restrictive in some ways in exchange for extra weaknesses. I imagine one way you could deal with those is just have a conjuration companion act as a vanguard for your body while you're possessing an enemy for the day(or possessing a better conjuration companion if you have that kind of room for talents.) You know, that sounds like it could be some neat puppet master archetype or something for Wraith.

[Dragolord]

Feedback is noted. Given the the power of possession effects, I am not going to be quick to buff it. This is only week 1 of the playtest after all.

Added the swarmheart archetype, because I have a reputation to keep.:smallbiggrin:

Have you ever heard of Grod's Law?

[stack]

For the past few hours, I have been trying to build a 5th-level wraith. I like to think that a single-classed character should be 100% competent and problem-free by 5th-level, but I have been struggling with the wraith. I have identified a few problems with it.

1. The wraith is heavily bound to limited daily resources. Wraith form has a pathetic rounds per day of class level + Charisma modifier. Possession costs a spell point for a measly 1 round per level (or 1 minute per level against a willing/unconscious target). With a purchase of the lengthened control haunt, possession costs two spell points for 1 minute per caster level (or 10 minutes per caster level against a willing/unconscious target).
Meanwhile, a fey adept is a High Caster with an independent pool of shadow points (or word points, for a word witch).

2. Mid-combat possession is mediocre. It requires spell points, it requires the wraith to get up close, it requires path possession abilities to be feasible against various targets, and those path possession abilities still make it a huge hassle to possess aberrations, dragons, fey, humanoids, magical beasts, monstrous humanoids, outsiders, and plants. Even then, possession still has a Hit Dice limit.
Meanwhile, a fey adept slings out high-impact effects with no questions asked, fueled by either spell points or shadow points (or word points, for a word witch).

3. A wraith is pushed towards the combat role of a much worse wild-shaping druid from 2nd to 11th level. The wraith flails around with the possessed creature's natural attacks from 2nd to 5th level, and then upgrades to a pouncer from 6th to 11th level. That would be great if it was not such a hassle to actually stay in such a "combat form." Instead, the wraith has to pay spell points and either contend with aggravatingly short durations, or find some way to treat a creature as willing/unconscious for the sake of a longer duration. It is extremely janky and user-unfriendly.

I cannot build a 5th-level wraith that I would look at and say, "This is definitely worth considering in place of a fey adept or a sphere druid."

Is there some secret to real ultimate power that I am missing about the wraith?

At the moment, the only truly remarkable use of possession I can see is using the path of the corrupter to possess a high-CR creature's corpse, and even then, that might not actually be legal due to the Hit Dice cap of the baseline possession class feature.

As it currently stands, the wraith could be turned into a High Caster with one magic talent per level, much like the fey adept, and given an independent pool of possession uses per day. Possession would still be terribly inconvenient to use, but at least it could be justified as a side show to the High Casting, much like the fey adept.
The corrupter may need to get the HD = twice level limit; it was the first path written and the least changed.
Before create reality comes online, a fey adept's shadow points are only useful for a mediocre ranged attack; afterwords, they still require an illusion to be useful, so you are spending two resources.
The duration issue if one I am seeing come up a fair bit, so that is definitely under consideration.

To add to ESE's post, the ally focused Path of the Ancestor seems so much more awful than the rest. Instead of converting an enemy to your side, you're merely taking yourself out of the picture for very little, it's like a really bad fusion. The "free" aegis is nice, but that only kicks in at level 8, and really is just there to make up for the fact that possession costs a spell point and doesn't last as long as casting the aegis yourself on the ally! Sure you can still use magic (assuming you've done the work needed for that) but you could have done that while not possessing the ally while also offering an additional target and pool of hit points to distribute hits a bit more (this only gets addressed at level 14). Never mind that say a 4 man party turning into a 3 man in terms of bodies means your presence on the battlefield is much reduced and being surrounded or flanked becomes a real concern then. At the very least Path of the Ancestor should be able to target the host with effects that would only normally target/affect yourself, much like what the Awakened Weapon of a Spirit-Wielder can do (this allows things like using Steal Time to give the host a standard action). The path should be Ghostly Ride++, not just a free Ghostly Ride Wraith Haunt pick.
Comments noted. I do agree that ancestor needs a buff. That buff will probably look like some of your suggestions.

I just spent the last couple of hours myself making a 5th level Path of the Corrupter Wraith and honestly I think the results are less than stellar. No matter how I look at it, I can't justify every using possession at this point. Why possess a dead body for a spell point with for such a small duration when I can just use Reanimate enhanced by Lingering Necromancy? Sure I could become a super powered skeleton for a few minutes, or I can just reanimate it as a super powered skeleton and use for a few hours with added action economy bonus. Add in Extend Spell, and he's here all day. If Advanced Talents are allowed, I could just have a permanent minion instead. The Possession advanced talent is available as soon as 10th CL with 2 prerequisite talents and is a lot less restrictive in some ways in exchange for extra weaknesses. I imagine one way you could deal with those is just have a conjuration companion act as a vanguard for your body while you're possessing an enemy for the day(or possessing a better conjuration companion if you have that kind of room for talents.) You know, that sounds like it could be some neat puppet master archetype or something for Wraith.
Advanced talents are a bit iffy for using as the basis of a comparison to a base class. The point on the duration for reanimate vs possession is well taken; I may integrate the possession into the base reanimate more. Have to think on it.

Have you ever heard of Grod's Law?

What do you consider to be unnecessarily complicated? There is a lot of complexity in the class and archetypes, but there are also many potential places for loopholes and undefined interactions; the nature of the type of ability causes it. Also, limitations for balance purposes do not necessarily equal an attempt to balance by making it obnoxious to use.

[khadgar567]

What do you consider to be unnecessarily complicated? There is a lot of complexity in the class and archetypes, but there are also many potential places for loopholes and undefined interactions; the nature of the type of ability causes it. Also, limitations for balance purposes do not necessarily equal an attempt to balance by making it obnoxious to use.
allow me to try to explain. as the class with ability to posses people this class clearly lacks options to posses anything thanks to paths of suck we cant posses any thing worth of salt while even fighter can do thinks more then this class.
as Edna. me and few of the folks said this class lacks the key features time( 1 round per level is to low) and all path kinda needs to be re thought again while archetypes are basicly just flavour changes with no content changed or updated.

[Dragolord]

What do you consider to be unnecessarily complicated? There is a lot of complexity in the class and archetypes, but there are also many potential places for loopholes and undefined interactions; the nature of the type of ability causes it. Also, limitations for balance purposes do not necessarily equal an attempt to balance by making it obnoxious to use.

If you think that possession and incorporality are both so powerful that a class devoted to them can't be allowed to use its class features for more than a few minutes a day, then perhaps you should think of some other way of limiting them. As it stands, I'm not sure what this class is supposed to do. It can't be an incorporeal spy and scout, because his wraith form doesn't last for long enough. It can't be a social manipulator who flits from aristocrat to aristocrat on his way to the treasury, because he won't have enough spell points. He'll have great difficulty playing as a possessor of enemies, if only because "fight against my allies and help these people I want to kill, even though they will surely kill or imprison me afterwards" is against anyone sane's nature.
Also, I'm not sure why the Path of the Cryptid or the Swarmheart archetype, as cool as the latter may be, are better than just playing a shifter with either the Mimicry or Swarm talents, although the Shrink Swarm haunt would be nice in a campaign without advanced talents.

[stack]

Feedback is noted. I will hold off on making major re-balancing for a few weeks when I will make a playtest 0.2 update.

[khadgar567]

Feedback is noted. I will hold off on making major re-balancing for a few weeks when I will make a playtest 0.2 update.
good to see this threat going strong as i hate this one become the next arcforge threat.

[ICN]

I think how I'd change things with the class as a whole is make the base ability a ride along sort of thing. You can hop into the mind of a target, but if you want to do anything besides share their senses or communicate telepathically with them, you spend a spell point to enable the full possession for a limited duration. Endless mind hopping like Granny Weatherwax's borrowing is a good goal to shoot to enable with the class I think, if you're familiar with the character.

Path of the Poltergeist I think the base possession should be the Object Ride talent for simplicity of Wraith Haunt interaction, with some nifty doo dads to differentiate it from any other Wraith picking up Object Ride.

For archetypes, I think one that gets an animal companion just to ride around in would be nice, and on the stranger side, one for simply being a magical object, for anyone who's ever wanted to play a magic sword that either supports or enslaves their wielder.

[Slavezero]

don't really have anything to add that hasn't been said at the moment so i'll just say that the concept so far looks really cool and i can't wait till the 0.2 version

[EarthSeraphEdna]

Does the wraith not suffer the problem of slowly falling through the floor in wraith form?

Ultimately, the wraith still lacks a fly speed, and therefore, the wraith is doomed to slowly fall.

[stack]

Does the wraith not suffer the problem of slowly falling through the floor in wraith form?

Ultimately, the wraith still lacks a fly speed, and therefore, the wraith is doomed to slowly fall.
I had thought it was sufficiently clear that you used normal movement modes and only applies the gliding option when not on or in material that would support your normal form and that there was just one commenter with a bad faith reading, but since there is continued confusion I may have to address that prior to the planned 0.2 update.

[Slavezero]

not sure how well it would work but maybe give the wraith some way to go to the ethereal plane? it makes sense for the class and you could possibly use it as a scouting tool or use it to bypass or flank enemy's. plus since wraiths have possession maybe it could give them an easier time body jacking people or something

[khadgar567]

not sure how well it would work but maybe give the wraith some way to go to the ethereal plane? it makes sense for the class and you could possibly use it as a scouting tool or use it to bypass or flank enemy's. plus since wraiths have possession maybe it could give them an easier time body jacking people or something
another good idea for updated version of the class.

[khadgar567]

okay lets review this class so we can get the 0.2 ready
as whole threat said again and again possession feels to short to be usefull in both combat and scouting in dungeon and the feats suppose to expend the time limit feels like feat tax to be honest when i first read the class i immediately look both lingering possession and expended possession and hope using both will give me all day possession. But what i get is none of i hoped. so when i said paths of suck i kinda mean it.
Path of ancestors putting protection talent on host is good but in lot of encounters you need to kill the enemy either quicker or for this classes case control one of them to effect numbers game. Which path does not helps in any way you can protect squishes to help your party but one of you either the host or you need to sit doing nothing in combat where one more dps caster or possessed meat shield will be more usefull and enjoyable instead. so my suggestion either buff this to path or scrap it. Or if you want to keep it put in to sphere like fallen fey so its there when you want it and same time its not there if you dont want it.

Path of anima: So we can turn in to elemental. News flash any sphere caster can do it from level one with alteration sphere with elemental transformation. Hell even paizo's own shifter can do it better then this and shifter is freaking martial class to bout. so my suggestion scrap it completely.

Path of corrupter: Death and corruption are kinda not mesh in peoples mind corruption means you start as good and thanks to possession from this class you start to go slippery slope in to worshiping asmodeus with out knowing you fell from grace. Not i posses corpses way the currently path wants to go. My suggestion turn in to mind sphere with new focus as if player gonna go death sphere its much better to go minionmancy route then posses single corpse at a time.

Path of cryptid: Possessing animals and fighting with them. you know this path and its abilities better works as part of the supportive sphere which stating point works animal possession with talent like superior possession to by past it before getting enough level to naturally posses humanoids then other eventual upgrades.

Path of despoiler: Ability to posses vermin might be sound cool in your mind but believe me its a headache as a) where you gonna find them when you need it. and b every one of them kinda either tiny or small so getting road kill is kinda to easy to accomplish. Suggestion make this optional talent on supporting sphere so we can grab it via hedgewitch secret.

Path of poltergeist: You know i kinda get the point you stuck on designing path of a class whose shick is possessing some one and decide to make a path mimic basic ghost powers. While telekinesis sphere and any one with predestination cantrip can pull same stunts with out this much hassle. suggestion put to in the supporting sphere as option instead of making it in to path.

Path of shadow: I dont know how its usefull since adventuring 101 is you keep some torches in the event you dont have dark vision. suggestion either scrap it or make it i dont know persons shadow focused.

Path of spook: To intimidate based build here we go. You know intimidating some one kinda hard enough to accomplish such that its better to posses random rat rather then spend entire build to secure a way to reliably posses some one via this. Suggestion scrap this and put i dont know a enchantment path that allows you to offer deal with the devil.

Path of illusion: Here is actually usable path if we dont have problem of will saves as any caster worth of salt knows detect magic so they can disbelief as free action. Suggestion unless class gets a way to shut down will save enough. Scrap this and start from scratch.

So here is the part one of the most needed review of the class to get 0.2 iteration of the class

[khadgar567]

Part 2 of wraith review for 0.2 edition request.
so here is the haunts:
Amnesiac possession: Good choice to pick as helps player in both scouting and thievery needs plus gives solid way to break wealth by level as any NPC possessed by the class is new bank account full of money needs to be spend on party needs. My advice keep it as it is hell even buff it up a bit.

benevolent possesion: Another good pick if we can posses long enough to get benifits of it.

consume host: As nasty as it is kinda good pick when you need to make your big reveal in the big bads inner sanctum.
deep pass: i am not sure how to rate this one as possesing one of the mooks kinda do the same. but playing ghost is also okay to.

Disorienting Possession: making host do a fort save when you stop possesing. while it feels kinda good amnesiac
possesion feels better as first makes sure host does not spill the beans. secondly makes sure host is ready for the get away.

dominate ooze: no comment as it expends the list of things class can posses.

expend path possesion: ability to gain another path is good if the paths worth it.

forced wraith form: ability to rip souls kinda feels good pick but unless we can keep body and destroy the soul its kinda bad.

ghostly fade: Flavorfull ability to escape:

ghost glide and its improvement: classic flight granting ability no comment needed.

ghost in the machine: flavorful abilty for technology heavy campings

ghost ride: standard ghost power to be hidden from the host nothing worth to comment.

ghost talent no comment you gain bonus talent from paths sphere.

hidden rider good pick for any one who wants to infiltrate a church via possesing one of the priests.

imroved path ability: yay we get second power from other path we choosed.

into the air. immidiate action wraith form nice when you need to scram for exit.

Lengthened Control: Every ones first looked and disapointed talent as this is gonna be solution to classes biggest problem but what do we have here a disappointment of hopes to save the class might well as put 20th level tag so its worth the heartache.

Lingering Incorporeality: abilty to keep wraith form two more turns until we reach the next meat suit.

object ride.well another ghost power we need to spent talent to do.

posses armaments: ability to give enchantment bonus to items we posses. well its there if we can posses long enough to need it.

reactive possesion: good pick alalong as allows that suprise class to utilize the surprise turn.

share wraith form. good pick for all team as it allows party to pull oceans eleven on the target. kinda liked it actually as mook rebels to his boss suddenly dies ( from consume host) and suddenly whole party is in the big bads sanctum ready to face him.
steal thoughts. good pick for the interrogation and abilty to do not caught while possesing some one out of character.
Part 2 done i hope we get the 0.2 version quick as this is the only requirement before boosted possesion time this class desperately need.

[Mehangel]

khadgar567, Maybe go back and reformat your posts, specifically make bold the names of different paths, etc or atleast separate each with a double space. As it is, I find it painful to look at, let alone read (it comes off as just huge wall of text).

[khadgar567]

about that up coming update to wraith class is any one know when we can get our grubby paws to it or i need to start brewing the update/ patch my self's only thing we needed for the update was honest review of the class and i thing with the posts of mine we completed that. please just few words on update s eta or when we end this excruciating pain and publish the patched or unpatched version so we can know.

[stack]

Basically at this point the update will come when I have time for it. Been busy with non-writing stuff. Official publishing won't be for some time regardless. Best not to rush a class.

[stack]

Took much longer than originally planned, but version 0.2 is viewable here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DZmfPEE8Ux84mcgLOid-Hdp3BIjrD40I2uT9mV6DfP4/edit#heading=h.3rdcrjn).

I have a couple more archetype ideas in the works, but wanted to get the base class revisions in the open.

[khadgar567]

passive possession is glad to have as makes class finally do the scouting role it needs. and boosted time on active possession is realy fixes the biggest problem of the class.
extra in corporeality nice to have. Finally Lengthened Control does what class needs from the start giving us ample time to both scout the dungeon and if we want to make sure host has decent trouble for us.
ranged possession is welcome to see.

well 0.2 version of the wraith looks much better thanks to increased time on possesion we can now gatter info without to much problem.

[calyst]

The inability to possess creatures of CR over class level -2, means this possession ability is rather hard to use on anything you are likely to fight that isn't a mook, and you likely can not use it on your own party members, maybe animal companion or cohort if you took Leadership, and if you multi-class it is unlikely you will be able to use the possession ability for anything worthwhile, maybe ride weak undead if you went that route.

[stack]

The inability to possess creatures of CR over class level -2, means this possession ability is rather hard to use on anything you are likely to fight that isn't a mook, and you likely can not use it on your own party members, maybe animal companion or cohort if you took Leadership, and if you multi-class it is unlikely you will be able to use the possession ability for anything worthwhile, maybe ride weak undead if you went that route.

Someday I may learn to stop making last minute changes. Yeah, that's a problem. Probably be able to fix it tomorrow.

[stack]

Changed to CR +1. We can see how people find it in play and tweak from there. Not sure what I was thinking on the -2 thing.

Edit - Also noticed that comment were not enabled on the new doc. Fixed.

[dude123nice]

What about possesing animal companions, eidolons, conjuration sphere companions etc. who do not posses a CR?

[stack]

What about possesing animal companions, eidolons, conjuration sphere companions etc. who do not posses a CR?

Excellent question!

Maybe simplest to define them as CR= HD -X for the purpose of the ability. 2 maybe? Not accurate across the whole level range, but has the benefit of simplicity.

[khadgar567]

Excellent question!

Maybe simplest to define them as CR= HD -X for the purpose of the ability. 2 maybe? Not accurate across the whole level range, but has the benefit of simplicity.
HD works but same time creates the problem of templates best approach i think is give wraith a sphere so we can kinda solve the problem. I know i always say give wraith a sphere every time but currently class has no defined go to sphere to boost the efficency of possesion skill.

[dude123nice]

HD works but same time creates the problem of templates best approach i think is give wraith a sphere so we can kinda solve the problem. I know i always say give wraith a sphere every time but currently class has no defined go to sphere to boost the efficency of possesion skill.

How does creating a new sphere do anything to solve the issue i pointed out? To me it seems like wraith class features clearly give it ways to improve it's possesion ability and wether it is a sphere or through class abilities creatures wothout a given CR still are a problem to solve.

[khadgar567]

How does creating a new sphere do anything to solve the issue i pointed out? To me it seems like wraith class features clearly give it ways to improve it's possesion ability and wether it is a sphere or through class abilities creatures wothout a given CR still are a problem to solve.
answer is simple give each corner case a talent so they are under control
like
hostile possesion
as swift action spending a spell point you can posses summoned creature whos level 2 lower then yours.

[dude123nice]

answer is simple give each corner case a talent so they are under control
like
hostile possesion
as swift action spending a spell point you can posses summoned creature whos level 2 lower then yours.

Or that can just be a specified in the class feature. I just don't understand what would be gained if you made that into a sphete instead of a class feature. There probably wouldn't even be a need for a new class anymore.

[stack]

Or that can just be a specified in the class feature. I just don't understand what would be gained if you made that into a sphete instead of a class feature. There probably wouldn't even be a need for a new class anymore.

The possession mechanic could be done as a sphere and doing so would remove the need for the class. The line between talent and class feature can be pretty fuzzy. I have chosen to work it as a class, bundling the incorporeal and possession aspects together into one base. I think it works well this way.

[khadgar567]

The possession mechanic could be done as a sphere and doing so would remove the need for the class. The line between talent and class feature can be pretty fuzzy. I have chosen to work it as a class, bundling the incorporeal and possession aspects together into one base. I think it works well this way.
still options to play celebrimbor would be nice with all sprit stuff bow and glaive as part of the class.

[stack]

Added the unbodied archetype (needs a name that doesn't overlap with psionics). Its rather experimental, more-so than even the base class, so...yeah, I expect there to be problems and it may not make final release, but I wanted to hear poeple's thoughts.

[dude123nice]

I have a few questions regarding both the base class and the Unbodied archetype
First, I am a little confused on wether or not the wraith gains any of the standard benefits of incorporeality in wraith form, such as deflection bonus to AC.

Also, for a low level unbodied the spell point tax of their possesion ability is going to be a nightmare. A low level unbodied without a willing host probably can't even survive since he will run out of spell points before he even has a chance to regain them, not to mention that if a the target succeeds on their saving throw, the unbodied is out of luck for 24 hours. Even with a willing host, the unbodied has to constantly end the possesion and start it again, since spendiing a spell point to extend the duration for 3 or 4 hours at a time geta costly pretty quickly. Actually i would argue that, for the base wraith as well, having to spend spell points to extend possesion of a willing host is just an unnecessary spell point tax, especially at low levels.

[Omnificer]

I have a few questions regarding both the base class and the Unbodied archetype
First, I am a little confused on wether or not the wraith gains any of the standard benefits of incorporeality in wraith form, such as deflection bonus to AC.


There is actually a list on the 5th and 6th pages of what all you get for being incorporeal. Like the deflection bonus to AC is explicitly listed as your Charisma mod.



Also, for a low level unbodied the spell point tax of their possesion ability is going to be a nightmare. A low level unbodied without a willing host probably can't even survive since he will run out of spell points before he even has a chance to regain them, not to mention that if a the target succeeds on their saving throw, the unbodied is out of luck for 24 hours. Even with a willing host, the unbodied has to constantly end the possesion and start it again, since spendiing a spell point to extend the duration for 3 or 4 hours at a time geta costly pretty quickly. Actually i would argue that, for the base wraith as well, having to spend spell points to extend possesion of a willing host is just an unnecessary spell point tax, especially at low levels.

An Unbodied by itself or without very trusting allies does seem pretty screwed. Maybe an alternate version of Object Ride might help with that. The Unbodied can shelter in an inanimate object (without a spell point like Object Ride requires) passively and spend a spell point to actively possess it. Kind of like Bob the Skull in Dresden Files.


Added the unbodied archetype (needs a name that doesn't overlap with psionics). Its rather experimental, more-so than even the base class, so...yeah, I expect there to be problems and it may not make final release, but I wanted to hear poeple's thoughts.

I can see that the non-lethal damage is to keep people from just being super scouts 100% of the time but what are the ramifications if they do pass out? They are unconscious, still taking the nonlethal and eventually lethal damage (I think) so they can never wake up and their allies can't help because it can only be removed by possessing something.

So, the Unbodied is neat way of directly playing a ghost like creature from the start. Looking at the retraining section it sounds like you're anticipating a standard Wraith losing touch with their physical self late in a game and retraining to Unbodied to reflect that. In that instance the limitations aren't as extreme, but that sounds more like a Prestige Class than an Archetype. And even a high level Wraith can still just straight up die with no chance of being saved if there aren't willing people around and they don't have Object Ride or Spell Points.

[stack]

The unbodied definitely has a few kinks to work out and I thank you for highlighting them. I am thinking the nonlethal could be capped so it doesn't spill over into lethal damage, or else it could have some kind of 'discorporate and reform x hours later' mechanic. Object ride is good; biggest challenge is shoving all that in to first level. Makes it rather packed.

Comments on re-upping passive on willing targets are well made. Popping out and back in repeatedly does seem unnecessary.

[dude123nice]

There is actually a list on the 5th and 6th pages of what all you get for being incorporeal. Like the deflection bonus to AC is explicitly listed as your Charisma mod.


I've seen that. I am not asking what are the normal benefits of being incorporeal, i am asking if the wraith ACTUALLY receives ANY of these benefits or if he only receives the benefits stated in the wraith form entry. The main reason I am asking this is because one of the benefits of wraith form, taking half damage from nonmagical weapons, is just a weaker version of the incorporeal benefit of taking half damage from all corporeal damage, including most spells and magic weapons. Does this mean that wraith form intentionally overwrites that ability with a weaker one? Or does wraith form not receive ANY brnefits of normal incorporeal creatures, and only the benefits stated in wraith form's description.

EDDIT: Also some people would argue that receiving CHA to AC with no catch like the monk or investment like the striker is a bit strong for a PC. If you have a ghost touch weapon this would make wraithform into a pure combat buff.

[stack]

Added - "The duration of an ongoing possession may be reset with the same action and spell point cost that was required to initiate it."

Shuffled a few things around to sort costs/benefits on the unbodied. May be easier to 'pay' for things with an HD drop. I have had the 'Bob' thought before, working on how to make that fit in without overloading it. Maybe a limited object ride (single bound object of limited size).

dude123nice - the benefits for incorporeal are as normal except where noted; some aspects are intentionally overwritten with weaker ones. CHA to AC is replacing any armor/shield you wear, so it isn't without cost. Also limited in rounds/day of use (unless unbodied, which has its own drawbacks).

[Slavezero]

whats your thoughts on a wraith haunt that adds in some/all of the incorporeal traits that the wraith is missing? and what about adding something that deals with the ethereal plane since the wraith is so close to death or what not that they gain ghost powers it would make sense that they can do something with it.

also on the whole flight issue i think it would be fine since it's not too much of a problem as base pathfinder has the strix race that starts with fly and with spheres it's really not hard to get since if i remember right you can get it at level 3 rather easily

[Omnificer]

I have some questions, thoughts, and assumptions I want to clear up, let me know if the assumptions are incorrect.

Assumptions:
I assume that possessing a creature means you can use touch spells without issue. I also assume you have line of sight and effect to whatever your host does, so you could passively possess an ally and shoot Destruction sphere orbs out of their body all day, assuming you haven't taken Verbal or Somatic drawbacks.

I assume that for possessing a Small Fire Elemental through the Path of Anima its bonus feats such as Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse and the Extraordinary ability Burn all count as ongoing passive abilities that don't need to be activated and work normally while possessing, even below 6th level.

Questions:
This line "The creature’s combat talents, feats that require active use, magic talents, spells, sphere abilities, and spell-like abilities do not stay with the body." and the chart stating you keep the host's bonus feats are hard for me to understand.

Are only non-activated bonus feats kept? Or are all non-activated feats kept, bonus and from host HD?
If activated bonus feats are kept, does the Wraith ever get the ability to activate them?
Does the Wraith ever get access to the host's non-bonus feats, activated or passive? The 6th, 12th, 16th, and 18 upgrades to possession don't mention feats as far as I can tell.

If you have Path of the Anima, do you get the Caster level = class level to both Weather and Nature, or do you have to choose one?

Thoughts:
1) Possessed creatures still get a save against things like Alteration, like an unwilling possessed owlbear for instance requires an additional spell point and it gets a Fort save to be buffed.
2) Animals/Magical Beasts/Vermin are a small portion of enemies. Of course the Wraith can possess any creature, but these are easier for it.
Therefore it seems like a Path of the Cryptid or Despoiler may want an animal companion to have consistent usage of their strengths. That would probably involve the Bound Creature boon or the Beastmastery sphere. Unfortunately the Bound Creature would have the midcaster Conjuration progression and would be more likely to die if you're possessing it, leaving you with spell casting failure chance for a month. The Beastmastery (tame) sphere is better. They could bring along possession friendly pets. But I think to get a full companion a Cryptid wouldn't be able to get any Animal Companion until 3rd level which would be below full companion strength until 5th level, and the Despoiler would need to wait until 7th level for a Vermin companion. This is through giving up every feat to get Beastmastery -> Animal Companion x2 -> Broad Skills (for Despoiler).
The Anima path seems to have an easier time creating disposable Elemental bodies without the major drawbacks when they die.
Do you have any suggestions for dealing with those constraints?

Have you considered something like the Path of the Ancestor with Fate instead of Protection? Consecrations moving with you for passive bonuses and Curses for active actions seems both appropriate and effective.

[stack]

whats your thoughts on a wraith haunt that adds in some/all of the incorporeal traits that the wraith is missing? and what about adding something that deals with the ethereal plane since the wraith is so close to death or what not that they gain ghost powers it would make sense that they can do something with it.

also on the whole flight issue i think it would be fine since it's not too much of a problem as base pathfinder has the strix race that starts with fly and with spheres it's really not hard to get since if i remember right you can get it at level 3 rather easily
Not sure what kind of ghost powers you mean. They have possession and telekinesis is only a sphere away. An AOE intimidate could work. For corrupting touch you can take destruction.

Strix is almost universally banned at low levels in my experience. Alteration can give flight at 1 (elemental transformation - air elemental, costs a spell point). Since wraith form is limited, the alteration argument is fairly strong.

I have some questions, thoughts, and assumptions I want to clear up, let me know if the assumptions are incorrect.

Assumptions:
I assume that possessing a creature means you can use touch spells without issue. I also assume you have line of sight and effect to whatever your host does, so you could passively possess an ally and shoot Destruction sphere orbs out of their body all day, assuming you haven't taken Verbal or Somatic drawbacks.

I assume that for possessing a Small Fire Elemental through the Path of Anima its bonus feats such as Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse and the Extraordinary ability Burn all count as ongoing passive abilities that don't need to be activated and work normally while possessing, even below 6th level.

Questions:
This line "The creature’s combat talents, feats that require active use, magic talents, spells, sphere abilities, and spell-like abilities do not stay with the body." and the chart stating you keep the host's bonus feats are hard for me to understand.

Are only non-activated bonus feats kept? Or are all non-activated feats kept, bonus and from host HD?
If activated bonus feats are kept, does the Wraith ever get the ability to activate them?
Does the Wraith ever get access to the host's non-bonus feats, activated or passive? The 6th, 12th, 16th, and 18 upgrades to possession don't mention feats as far as I can tell.

If you have Path of the Anima, do you get the Caster level = class level to both Weather and Nature, or do you have to choose one?

Thoughts:
1) Possessed creatures still get a save against things like Alteration, like an unwilling possessed owlbear for instance requires an additional spell point and it gets a Fort save to be buffed.
2) Animals/Magical Beasts/Vermin are a small portion of enemies. Of course the Wraith can possess any creature, but these are easier for it.
Therefore it seems like a Path of the Cryptid or Despoiler may want an animal companion to have consistent usage of their strengths. That would probably involve the Bound Creature boon or the Beastmastery sphere. Unfortunately the Bound Creature would have the midcaster Conjuration progression and would be more likely to die if you're possessing it, leaving you with spell casting failure chance for a month. The Beastmastery (tame) sphere is better. They could bring along possession friendly pets. But I think to get a full companion a Cryptid wouldn't be able to get any Animal Companion until 3rd level which would be below full companion strength until 5th level, and the Despoiler would need to wait until 7th level for a Vermin companion. This is through giving up every feat to get Beastmastery -> Animal Companion x2 -> Broad Skills (for Despoiler).
The Anima path seems to have an easier time creating disposable Elemental bodies without the major drawbacks when they die.
Do you have any suggestions for dealing with those constraints?

Have you considered something like the Path of the Ancestor with Fate instead of Protection? Consecrations moving with you for passive bonuses and Curses for active actions seems both appropriate and effective.

While actively possessing a creature, using touch spells is not an issue.

I probably need to fix the table regarding feats. I will need to look into it.

Anima chooses one sphere as its path sphere to get full CL in.

Beastmastery is useful for those paths. Animals can be purchased for use at low levels and are common enemies early on. I would like to grant a martial tradition, but that would overload level 1 I think. Originally cryptid was an archetype that granted a companion, but I rolled it into a path instead. I suppose a familiar or animal companion set of haunts wouldn't be crazy. Have to think about it.

Protection works neatly for ancestor given the way aegis talents work. Fate consecrations could work and it would be thematic. Thematically, life could work too. Not sure I want to have a path for each, just from the perspective of the number of paths that makes since the class is already wordy.

[Slavezero]

Not sure what kind of ghost powers you mean. They have possession and telekinesis is only a sphere away. An AOE intimidate could work. For corrupting touch you can take destruction.

Strix is almost universally banned at low levels in my experience. Alteration can give flight at 1 (elemental transformation - air elemental, costs a spell point). Since wraith form is limited, the alteration argument is fairly strong.

ahh i had misread so i thought they were missing more stuff then that still to clarify what i had intended to say would a wraith haunt that gives them they're full cha to ac like a normal ghost be too powerful?

[stack]

ahh i had misread so i thought they were missing more stuff then that still to clarify what i had intended to say would a wraith haunt that gives them they're full cha to ac like a normal ghost be too powerful?
You mean charisma to AC all the time, not just while in wraith form?

[Slavezero]

You mean charisma to AC all the time, not just while in wraith form?

i am really off my game today i had thought you only got half your Cha to ac rather then the full amount. sorry for the confusion I've caused from me misreading and remembering things wrong

[stack]

Added the spirit blade armorist archetype. Its another unusual one.

[khadgar567]

İ cant see the armorist archtype.

[stack]

Its there. I forgot to refresh the table of contents, now that I have it is listed there properly. "Archetypes for other classes"

[Mithril Leaf]

Hey, couple questions about the Path of the Corruptor:
Are you still limited by the CR you can possess when possessing dead you reanimate?
Does Strengthened Possession improve the number of HD you can reanimate by possession?
Are you allowed to reanimate the variant undead allowed if you possess the Expanded Necromancy talent?

[stack]

Hey, couple questions about the Path of the Corruptor:
Are you still limited by the CR you can possess when possessing dead you reanimate?
Intent is that that you are switching to the animate dead rules, so the HD cap replaces the CR cap for this ability.

Does Strengthened Possession improve the number of HD you can reanimate by possession?
Yeah, I suppose that needs to be called out for all the special option path possessions.
EDIT: Added text to the feat to cover that.

Are you allowed to reanimate the variant undead allowed if you possess the Expanded Necromancy talent? Yes.

[khadgar567]

İs any one can update the file i still cant see armorist archtype its in the index but i cant find it in the document.

[stack]

Walls are small hinderance to those that can step between realms.
Wraith form (Su): At 1st level, the ghost stepper gains the wraith form ability as a wraith of her level.
This replaces the rogue talents gained at 2nd, 8th, and 14th levels. Additionally, the ghost stepper does not gain sneak attack until 3rd level and always had 1 fewer sneak attack die than normal for a rogue of her level.
Ghostly Talent: The ghost stepper may take wraith haunts in place of rogue talents. The ghost stepper treats her class level as wraith levels for using and qualifying for wraith haunts. These levels stack with those gained from other sources.

A person that learned to take the shape of a weapon or a weapon powerful enough to take shape and wield itself? Spirit blades blur the line between warrior and weapon, granting their skill or commanding those that would use them.
Proficiencies: Spirit blades are proficient with simple weapons, as well as light armor and bucklers. In addition, if this is this character’s first level in any class, they may select a Martial Tradition of their choice.
This modifies proficiencies.
Blended Training (Ex): Whenever a spirit blade would gain a magic talent from her class levels (not the 2 bonus talents gained when first gaining the casting class feature), she may instead choose to gain a combat talent. A spirit blade uses her casting ability modifier as her practitioner modifier.
This modifies magic talents. This archetype may be combined with other archetypes that replace magic talents; you cannot gain a combat talent in place of a magic talent the other archetype loses.
Weapon form: At 1st level, the spirit blade may take the form of one of her bound weapons as a full round action. This is a polymorph effect. The blade spirit gains the shapechanger subtype. Returning to her normal form is a full round action. While in weapon form, the spirit blade may be targeted as a weapon of the chosen type despite not being an object, though is always counted as being attended. The spirit blade in blade form may communicate telepathically with her wielder. As part of transforming into weapon form, the spirit blade may touch a willing creature that has at least one hand free; the transformation completes with the weapon form held by that creature. The touched creature may drop a held object to free a hand for this purpose as a free action that can be taken even when it is not that creature’s turn.
In weapon form, the blade spirit has no Strength or Dexterity scores and gains hardness equal to her class level or the hardness of the bound weapon, whichever is higher. The spirit blade in weapon form retains her normal senses and communication abilities.
Striking a creature or object as part of an attack does not damage the spirit blade nor force the her to make a concentration checks to maintain an ongoing effect. If the spirit blade has more than one bound weapon, she may change between their forms with the same action as required to assume weapon form.
This replaces summon equipment.
Possess Wielder (Su): At 2nd level, the spirit blade may spend a spell point to attempt to actively possess any creature that wields her, treating her spirit blade levels as wraith levels for determining the possession DC. The spirit blade’s weapon form body is not absorbed into the host; instead the host may wield it as a weapon while possessed. This otherwise functions as the possession ability of the wraith class.
Guiding Blade (Su): The spirit blade gains the following abilities:
Grant Skill: At 1st level, the spirit blade may grant her skill to her wielder. The spirit blade guides the wielder’s attacks that are made with the spirit blade’s weapon form, allowing them to be made with the spirit blade’s base attack bonus. The spirit blade may choose to share her magic and combat talents with her wielder.
Guide Strike: At 3rd level, the spirit blade’s influence allows the wielder to focus on other matters; the spirit blade may spend a standard action to allow the wielder to reduce the action required to make an attack action using her weapon form by one step (usually a standard to a move action, but sometimes a full round to a standard, a move to a swift, or a swift to a free action).
Coordinate Opening: At 7th level, the spirit blade in blade form, if a creature provokes an attack of opportunity from the spirit blade, she may spend her attack of opportunity to direct the wielder to attack with her weapon form. Treat the spirit blade as a creature of her wielder’s size occupying her wielder’s space with her normal ability scores for determining when these attacks can be made.
Teamwork: At 11th level, while in blade form, the spirit blade may share a number of teamwork feats she possesses with her wielder up to her Casting Ability Modifier (minimum 1). Treat the spirit blade as a creature of her wielder’s size occupying her wielder’s space with her normal ability scores for determining the application of these feats. Attacks made with the guide strike, greater guide strike, and coordinate opening abilities count as being made by the spirit blade for this purpose.
Greater Guide Strike: At 15th level, the spirit blade may spend a standard action to allow the wielder to reduce the action required to make an attack action using her weapon form by two steps or a move action to reduce it by one step. This replaces guide strike. This ability may only be used once per round.
Symbiotic Skill: At 19th level, the wielder may choose to use the spirit blade’s base attack bonus for all attacks made by the wielder, even if not made using the spirit blade for as long as the spirit blade is in its possession.
This replaces armor training.
Equip Wielder: At 5th level, when summoning a bound armor, shield, or staff while in weapon form and being wielded or possessing a wielder, it may appear on the wielder or possessed creature as if they were the spirit blade.
This modifies bound equipment.
Independent control (Su): At 20th level, the blade spirit may direct a willing wielder’s physical attack freely, allowing her to direct the wielder’s attacks without the wielder spending actions.
This replaces infinite arsenal.
Blade Haunts: The spirit blade gains exclusive access to the following arsenal tricks:
Absorbing Block - As an immediate action, the spirit blade may direct all damage and effects of an attack that would harm her wielder or creature she is possessing to herself. This choice is made after the result of the attack is known.
Dancing Blade - (Requires Telekinesis sphere) When the spirit blade targets herself in weapon form and only herself, she reduces the action required to concentrate on lift to a swift action.
Intuitive Skill - The wielder of the spirit blade in spirit form gains proficiency with the weapon form for as long it is wielded. If the wielder is already proficient with weapons of that type, it instead gains a +1 insight bonus on attack and damage rolls, increasing by +1 for every 7 class levels the spirit blade possesses.
Grappling Impale - The blade spirit gains the Lancer sphere, or another talent from that sphere if it is already possessed. If the spirit blade has a drawback that removes the impale ability of the Lancer sphere, this talent must be used to buy off that drawback. Any time the spirit blade in blade form is used to impale a creature, she may return to her normal form and attempt to initiate a grapple targeting the impaled creature as an immediate action. This grapple check gains the benefit of an enhancement bonus the spirit blade possesses while in blade form.
Impaling Possession - The blade spirit gains the Lancer sphere, or another talent from that sphere if it is already possessed. If the spirit blade has a drawback that removes the impale ability of the Lancer sphere, this talent must be used to buy off that drawback. Any time the spirit blade in blade form is used to impale a creature, she may attempt to possess that creature as an immediate action. If successful, dealing damage by removing the spirit blade’s weapon form does not grant the possessed creature a new save against the possession.
Quick Shift - the action required to enter or leave weapon form is reduced to a move action. At 7th level, it becomes a swift action. At 14th level, it may be done as a free or immediate action.

[khadgar567]

I like the spirit blade but how hard would be to jigger it to create xeno gears 2 blades.

[stack]

I like the spirit blade but how hard would be to jigger it to create xeno gears 2 blades.

I have no idea as I am not familiar with the reference game. It is a game, right?

[khadgar567]

I have no idea as I am not familiar with the reference game. It is a game, right?
Its game were you have weapons with personalities( includind split personalities) also npc character that travels along with pc but the problem is npc and weapon are same thing and have seperate bodies

[stack]

Added the draugr archetype for the wraith. Loses wraith form, gains rage which it can share with a host. Also gets blended training and a martial tradition.

[stack]

Bad timing with the PF2 playtest and all that, but I have implemented variable possession time based on CR relative to level.

[stack]

Looking to wrap the playtest end of August to give plenty of time to hit an early October release.

[dude123nice]

So what would happen if the wraith or the possessed creature had the Combat Stamina feat? I assume that in case of feats like toughness, if the possessed creature has it, it's benefit are still kept when a wraith is actively possessing the creature, but who would have to have the Combat Stamina feat, the wraith or the host, in order for the wraith to gain it's benefits when actively possessing?

[stack]

The class is released, thank you for your help in the playtest!

Future questions should be directed to the Ask Me Anything thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?561876-Drop-Dead-Studios-Ask-Me-Anything-3).


So what would happen if the wraith or the possessed creature had the Combat Stamina feat? I assume that in case of feats like toughness, if the possessed creature has it, it's benefit are still kept when a wraith is actively possessing the creature, but who would have to have the Combat Stamina feat, the wraith or the host, in order for the wraith to gain it's benefits when actively possessing?

You don't get access to the host's feats until 18th level. If the wraith has combat stamina and a feat with a stamina option, the wraith can use that option from his own stamina pool. At 18th level, you could benefit from the combat stamina feat and any feat with a stamina option the host has, drawing from the host's stamina pool if desired.

[dude123nice]

The class is released, thank you for your help in the playtest!

Future questions should be directed to the Ask Me Anything thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?561876-Drop-Dead-Studios-Ask-Me-Anything-3).



You don't get access to the host's feats until 18th level. If the wraith has combat stamina and a feat with a stamina option, the wraith can use that option from his own stamina pool. At 18th level, you could benefit from the combat stamina feat and any feat with a stamina option the host has, drawing from the host's stamina pool if desired.

But can you use your own Combat Stamina feat while possessing someone from 1st level?

[stack]

But can you use your own Combat Stamina feat while possessing someone from 1st level?





You don't get access to the host's feats until 18th level. If the wraith has combat stamina and a feat with a stamina option, the wraith can use that option from his own stamina pool. At 18th level, you could benefit from the combat stamina feat and any feat with a stamina option the host has, drawing from the host's stamina pool if desired.

Yes, the wraith can use his own feats.

[dude123nice]

Yes, the wraith can use his own feats.

Ah, so you also do not get to recalculate your stamina pool with your new Con, right?

[stack]

Correct. Your pool, your Con.