3.5 gestalt Swiftblade help

[DragonsAion]

So the game starts at lvl 3 and one side of this build will be the Wizard class. On the other side I'm thinking at least Swashbuckler 3 for the INT to damage and then what? Fighter for the feats or Scout for the skirmish damage?

What would you all do with this build?

[Seharvepernfan]

My favorite character is a swiftblade who sure wishes he was gestalt. Scout/Transmuter/Ruathar/Unseen Seer/Swiftblade. If I were you, I'd go martial transmuter (or whatever) on one side, and scout 10/swiftblade 10 on the other (forfeiting it's caster advancement so as not to break the gestalt rule).

My guy uses a courtblade with weapon finesse and power attack (Str 20/Dex 24 before Reduce Person), but he doesn't have some of the (IMO) cheesier options like travel devotion, so you may want to go TWF if you do (especially if you dip swashbuckler 3). Between scout bonus feats and the fighter bonus feats from martial wizard (and the two you get from swiftblade), you'll have a ton of feats.
Also, if you're gonna get swashbuckler 3, you may as well get cloistered cleric 1, but I wouldn't get less than 6 scout levels.

All that said, as a full wizard you'll likely have better things to do than bother with physical attack rolls.

[Nifft]

So the game starts at lvl 3 and one side of this build will be the Wizard class. On the other side I'm thinking at least Swashbuckler 3 for the INT to damage and then what? Fighter for the feats or Scout for the skirmish damage?

What would you all do with this build?

Skirmish is great -- but if I wanted Skirmish, then I wouldn't take any Swashbuckler.

I'd just take Scout levels for Skirmish.

My suggestion would be to avoid losing caster levels by alternating which class is opposite Swiftblade.

Something like...

Level 1 - Expeditious Dodge feat (instead of regular underpowered Dodge)
(base) Wizard 5 // Scout 5 -> BAB +3, has level 3 slots with which to cast haste, use your level 4 Scout bonus feat to pick up Mobility

Level 6 - Wizard 6 // Swiftblade 1 - for your feat, take Improved Skirmish
Level 7 - Scout 6 // Swiftblade 2
Level 8 - Scout 7 // Swiftblade 3
Level 9 - Wizard 7 // Swiftblade 4
Level 10 - Scout 8 // Swiftblade 5
(etc.)

[DragonsAion]

I forgot to mention that we can use the oslecamo monster classes for races.


My suggestion would be to avoid losing caster levels by alternating which class is opposite Swiftblade.

Not sure how I would lose CL if I went Wizard 20 on one side of the gestalt.

[Nifft]

Not sure how I would lose CL if I went Wizard 20 on one side of the gestalt.

Then you're losing out on class features which you could have gotten.

Scout 10 vs. Scout 16 in this example.

[DragonsAion]

Well this is still in the planning stages so I'm not even sure I "need" a full Wizard 20 on one side.

[Seharvepernfan]

Ask your DM if you can waive the casting part of swiftblade.

[Rebel7284]

I think one of the best builds for a gestalt swiftblade is:

Martial Wizard 5/Swiftblade 1/Spelldancer 1/Swiftblade +9/Whatever 4
//
Factotum 5/Wizard 1/Factotum 3/Wizard 1/Whatever 10

Factotum is great for a number of reasons. You get Int to pretty much everything (attack/ac/damage), sure only a limited number of times per encounter, but most encounters are short. Extra actions are amazing (even if 1/round as is probably intended.) You can also take Factotum to 11 and automatically overcome ALL SR! Amazing out of combat versatility with ALL skills as class skills is icing on the cake.

Martial Wizard gives you two fighter bonus feats over 5 levels helping qualify for swiftblade.

Spelldancer, in addition to being flavorfull, allows you to apply metamagic for free which is pretty amazing for buffs. Normally high prerequisites are mostly shared with Swiftblade.

The build leaves plenty of space for other stuff like swashbuckler/scout/warblade after finishing factotum 8/11.

[DragonsAion]

Ask your DM if you can waive the casting part of swiftblade.

The only way the casting part of Swiftblade would come into play is if I didn't take all 20 levels of Wizard. If I took the full 20 lvls then the Swiftblade casting levels would be overridden by the casting levels of Wizard.

So if one side of the build is full Wizard 20 then I would have CL 20 despite what the other side of the gestalt was.


Spelldancer, in addition to being flavorfull, allows you to apply metamagic for free which is pretty amazing for buffs. Normally high prerequisites are mostly shared with Swiftblade.

just read up on this and was wondering why your trying to turn my character into Kevin Bacon from footloose?

[Cosi]

I would probably go with Wizard 6/Swiftblade 10/Abjurant Champion* 4//Fighter 1/Druid 19, or some variant thereof (arguably you have to do something like Fighter 2/Druid 18 depending on how Swiftblade's casting prerequisite interacts with your Druid casting). Your basic plan would get to Wild Shape into something with lots of attacks, and shred people with Arcane Strike powered full attacks. Eventually you can start throwing out extra spells once Swiftblade gives you an extra action. You might want to take Druid 20 instead of Fighter 1/Druid 19, which would require you to spend an extra feat to get into Swiftblade, but would let you get in at 6th level instead of 7th level. You can also swap some of your Druid levels to Wizard or Swiftblade levels to get full Wizard progression (arguably this doesn't work).

I don't really like Scout. As far as I can tell, all it really gets you is a bonus feat, which you can get out of a much smaller number of Fighter levels. The chassis isn't much better than Druids (if it is at all) and the class features are way worse. If you really want something like this, I think Bardblade for is better.

I also don't like Factotum. The big draw of the class is the extra actions, but Swiftblade gives you those, so I think you're better off looking for extra spells to use your actions on.

*: Or whatever. Those levels are basically totally free, and you're not terribly likely to get there in any case.

[DragonsAion]

I would like to keep the MADness down to a min. Thanks for the help everyone and please keep it coming.

[Cosi]

I would like to keep the MADness down to a min. Thanks for the help everyone and please keep it coming.

For what it's worth, I think Druid is probably less MAD than taking a martial-ish class. You have to invest in WIS, but you no longer have to worry about your physical stats (at least, past 6th level when you get Natural Spell), and you probably weren't meleeing much before that point since you only start taking Swiftblade levels at 6th level.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Since swiftblades get additional standard actions, how about some martial initiator classes to use them on without eating up resources? Mixing crusader (for healing maneuvers and automatic refreshing) and swordsage (for Wis to AC, skills, and utility maneuvers) could be quite nice, after all. Make sure to wear light armor without any arcane spell failure.

[Cosi]

Since swiftblades get additional standard actions, how about some martial initiator classes to use them on without eating up resources? Mixing crusader (for healing maneuvers and automatic refreshing) and swordsage (for Wis to AC, skills, and utility maneuvers) could be quite nice, after all. Make sure to wear light armor without any arcane spell failure.

Could also do a build with a Beguiler base to avoid spell failure. Maybe like Beguiler/Swiftblade//Bard/Warblade? That makes you a pretty good buffer/gish with Song of the White Raven.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Could also do a build with a Beguiler base to avoid spell failure. Maybe like Beguiler/Swiftblade//Bard/Warblade? That makes you a pretty good buffer/gish with Song of the White Raven.Well, it'd be easier to get non-ASF armor than do without all of those wonderful defensive wizard spells that beguilers don't get.

Might be a good idea to go for eidetic spellcaster instead of worrying about having a spellbook. Those things are a huge weakness, and they're a really clunky mechanic, too.

[DragonsAion]

eidetic spellcaster?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

eidetic spellcaster?From Dragon Magazine #357; it lets you store your spellbook inside your head so it's impossible to lose. Instead of scribing in special inks in a book, you meditate to special incense that costs the same as said ink.

[DragonsAion]

Ah, so nothing obtain familiar can't fix. Speaking of any ideas on a improved familiar that would work with this build if any?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Ah, so nothing obtain familiar can't fix. Speaking of any ideas on a improved familiar that would work with this build if any?Changeling wizard morphic familiar ACF, from Races of Eberron? It changes to whatever you're capable of summoning, so you can have ALL of the familiars. Take OF more than once, gain multiple shapeshifting familiars. Even better if you can take a few levels of spell sovereign, from Eberron, to get the ability to turn your familiar(s) into living spells. All of the low level spells from all spellcasting classes at will? Sounds pretty nice to me.

Say, how high-op is this game, anyway?

[DragonsAion]

All official wizards of the coast sources are allowed, no cheese or ticks for early entry, and Oslecamo monster classes on case by case.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

All official wizards of the coast sources are allowed, no cheese or ticks for early entry, and Oslecamo monster classes on case by case.Take changeling. I'd suggest maybe being a changeling dual-specialist (transmutation and illusion), in which case, also taking master specialist (transmutation and illusion). Make sure to grab the morphic familiar ACF. Lead into swiftblade.

On the other side, first level is changeling rogue ACF (grants skill mastery with all social skills and 10+Int skill points, multiplied by x4 at 1st level) 1/factotum 3, leading into a mix of crusader, swordsage, and wizard (on alternating levels that cover the caster level gaps in swiftblade). If your DM allows you to take two PrCs at the same time, exchange the alternating wizard levels with spell sovereign, instead.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Swiftblade advances spellcasting, so I'd skip taking Wizard at those levels. Keep in mind there's no 'side' to gestalt, it's just Class A + Class B at any given level, it doesn't matter what order they're arranged in.

I'd use a two-handed weapon since Str with (Draconic) Polymorph and two-handed Power Attacking with (Extended, Persistent) Wraithstrike is going to be your best source of damage. You can use a spiked chain or elven courtblade if you want to include Swashbuckler 3, but that's going to be a fairly mediocre bonus to damage in the long run.

Include Fighter 6 for the Dungeoncrasher ACF, you can even use that with spells like Melf's Unicorn Arrow (PH2). See if you can find a large size Dragon, Outsider, Monstrous Humanoid, or Magical Beast with an Int bonus in those monster classes, any of those types should get full BAB for the monster class HD. Take Knock-Back in RoS along with Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown), you won't even need to use a weapon that can trip. Even if you normally have a high Str and don't need to Polymorph, you can Draconic Polymorph into yourself to get an extra +8.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Swiftblade advances spellcasting, so I'd skip taking Wizard at those levels. Keep in mind there's no 'side' to gestalt, it's just Class A + Class B at any given level, it doesn't matter what order they're arranged in.Swiftblade has poor caster progression, only granting 6/10. Taking wizard on the levels that swiftblade doesn't grant CLs means you don't lose any (at the cost of taking another class during those levels, but the extra CLs are definitely worthwhile).


I'd use a two-handed weapon since Str with (Draconic) Polymorph and two-handed Power Attacking with (Extended, Persistent) Wraithstrike is going to be your best source of damage. You can use a spiked chain or elven courtblade if you want to include Swashbuckler 3, but that's going to be a fairly mediocre bonus to damage in the long run.

Include Fighter 6 for the Dungeoncrasher ACF, you can even use that with spells like Melf's Unicorn Arrow (PH2). See if you can find a large size Dragon, Outsider, Monstrous Humanoid, or Magical Beast with an Int bonus in those monster classes, any of those types should get full BAB for the monster class HD. Take Knock-Back in RoS along with Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown), you won't even need to use a weapon that can trip. Even if you normally have a high Str and don't need to Polymorph, you can Draconic Polymorph into yourself to get an extra +8.I can definitely get behind these. Excellent suggestions for high damage. You can even fit dungeon crasher in with my suggestions, as there are a lot of levels to fiddle with between changeling ACF rogue 1/factotum 3/crusader 1+/(ideally) swordsage 2+/(total) wizard 4.

[DragonsAion]

Take changeling. I'd suggest maybe being a changeling dual-specialist (transmutation and illusion), in which case, also taking master specialist (transmutation and illusion). Make sure to grab the morphic familiar ACF. Lead into swiftblade.

On the other side, first level is changeling rogue ACF (grants skill mastery with all social skills and 10+Int skill points, multiplied by x4 at 1st level) 1/factotum 3, leading into a mix of crusader, swordsage, and wizard (on alternating levels that cover the caster level gaps in swiftblade). If your DM allows you to take two PrCs at the same time, exchange the alternating wizard levels with spell sovereign, instead.

I was thinking of taking Elf or human, but I've read up on the Changeling and I think I will do that instead. I could go full doppelganger but that's a 3 lvl monster class.

[Urudin]

1. What levels of optimization do you want to achieve (any classes like Iot7V, Incantrix, Spelldancer, Dweomerkeeper)?
2. What do you want to do with your character, any preferred spell schools, or just everything best?
3. Do you want to be more offensive, or more defensive?
4. Do you want to be a wizard? (I KNOW IT'S IRRITATING ADVICE, DO NOT KILL MEH!). Have you read about generic spellcaster?

[DragonsAion]

Honestly I was going for INT synergy with the wizard and swashbuckler before going into the swiftblade. Now I have more to think about. I'm pretty set now on taking the changling as the race and wondering if I can mix warshaper into this some how.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Honestly I was going for INT synergy with the wizard and swashbuckler before going into the swiftblade. Now I have more to think about. I'm pretty set now on taking the changling as the race and wondering if I can mix warshaper into this some how.Alrighty. Can we assume that changelings qualify for the shape-changing aspect of warshaper? Are flaws a thing? Can we take two PrCs at the same time?

1.) Changeling rogue ACF 1 // Changeling eidetic spellcaster wizard dual-specialization 1
2.) Factotum 1 // Wizard 2
3.) Factotum 2 // Wizard 3
4.) Factotum 3 // Wizard 4
5.) Crusader 1 // Changeling morphic familiar wizard 5
6.) Swiftblade 1 // Wizard 6
7.) Swiftblade 2 // Shapeshifting druid 1
8.) Swiftblade 3 // Whirling frenzy spirit lion totem barbarian 1
9.) Swiftblade 4 // Wizard 7
10.) Swiftblade 5 // Unarmed variant swordsage 1
11.) Swiftblade 6 // Swordsage 2
12.) Swiftblade 7 // Wizard 8
13.) Swiftblade 8 // Totemist 1
14.) Swiftblade 9 // Totemist 2
15.) Swiftblade 10 // Wizard 9
16.) Warshaper 1 // Changeling override transmutation ACF Wizard 10
17.) Warshaper 2 // Wizard 11
18.) Warshaper 3 // Wizard 12
19.) Warshaper 4 // Wizard 13
20.) Warshaper 5 // Wizard 14

Note that the PHB 2's shapeshifting druid variant gives your combat forms more oomph. The barbarian level lets you pounce regardless of form. Crusader lets you heal while fighting and grants some maneuvers, while swordsage grants maneuvers, extra AC, and some really nice teleportation type stuff as an (Ex) ability. Totemist grants some great utility and skill boosting, and you can use spells to push the envelope on what you can do with it. (Many soulmelds also work regardless of shapeshifting.)

[Fouredged Sword]

One really easy way to get casting in light armor is ti dip spelltheif and take the master spellthief feat. Boom, all arcane casting in light armor ignores asf.

Wizard 3 // spellthief 1 / martial rogue 2 is a fine start. 1d6 sneak attack, 2nd level spells, good skills, two fighter feats, and evasion.

[Dread_Head]

No one has mentioned it yet but Duskblade is a class with a lot of synergy for an int based caster. Three levels gets Combat Casting which is useful as a prerequisite for a couple of prestige classes and standard action arcane channel which can be used with any of your wizard spells as well. Full Attack arcane channel would also be very nice as with swiftblade prerequisites and bonus feats you have most of the prereqs for whirlwind attack to use it with. It is a lot of dead levels to get there though so might not be worth it overall.

Also if you go for the changeling build suggested above I would recommend against taking dual specialist, giving up that extra school doesn't seem worth it to me. I would actually recommend taking Racial Emulation and grabbing the Elf Wizard substitution levels at 1 and 3 for elven generalist and doubling the bonus your familiar grants (works great with morphic familiar being able to change the bonus granted).

[Urudin]

To be honest, it is a little bit hard to suggest anything, since I do not know what type of playstyle do you want to achieve. Do you want to be more deffensive? Or offensive? Or maybe middle-ground? Do you want to focus more on buffing yourself to the stratosphere and fighting? Do you want to use a lot of persistent buffs? Or maybe you want to play with antimagic field?
You can go with abjurant champion for additional AC, factoctum (+int to AC) and monk with carmendine monk feats (+int to AC, evasion), which would make you unhittable to almost anything and give you evasion which would negate some of the DMG. You could connect it with evasion and reach weapon.
Or maybe you could go generic caster which would let you get divine power and combine it with 4 levels of mystic ranger which would get you swiftblade at level 5, opening 16 levels of prestige classes for your use and i-do-not-care-about-BAB-of-build argument.

[lylsyly]

For what its worth, the most fun I ever had playing a gish was a gestalt build.

Martial Transmuter 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Swiftblade 10///Duskblade 13/Initiate of the Seven Veils 7

Yes, you do lose 9th level spells *gasp*, but it a very fun combination. Full attack channeling, the versatility of a wizard's spell book, the versatility of haste, lots of spells per day (up to 6th level of course), and plenty of defensive options as well.

You could drop the 10th level of swiftblade and get 9ths if you choose to. (we allowed PRCs on both sides and could advance casting of that side only. In fact, the bit about flipping classes from one side to the other was disallowed).

[Urudin]

Iot7V is one of the best (if not the best one) caster classes when you won't consider persistent spell abuse or wish abuse ones.
Whaterver would be thrown around, using mystic ranger to get swiftblade at level 5 so that you can get 9 levels of swiftblade and 7 of Iot7V or 10 levels of swiftblade and 6 of Iot7V would give really good results.

[Cosi]

I don't think that works the way you want it to. Mystic Ranger gets 3rd level spells at 6th. You could use it for the BAB and Wizard for the casting, but you can do that with any full BAB class.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Martial Transmuter 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Swiftblade 10///Duskblade 13/Initiate of the Seven Veils 7That won't work unless the OP's DM allows for overlapping PrCs, which isn't guaranteed. I do agree, however, that Io7V is THE best defensive class for any arcane gish, including epic.

[Urudin]

I don't think that works the way you want it to. Mystic Ranger gets 3rd level spells at 6th. You could use it for the BAB and Wizard for the casting, but you can do that with any full BAB class.

Mystic ranger has 2nd lvl spell "swift, haste", which in theory would qualify for the requirements of a swiftblade. It would all depend how dm would treat this line:


Special: Must have spent the entire previous level using all 3rd level spell slots to exclusively cast haste.

Which most dms i've played with completely ignored. If he asks dm and gets it approved, then good for him (he can get 6 levels of prestige classes packed, go for generic caster with divine power, which is imo worth it), in my opinion mystic ranger is actually great class for gestalt gish - good buffs up to lvl 3/4 of spellcasting (primal spells line for example).
However, since we do not know what levels of optimization OP wants to hit, it's not that easy to give any advices :smallamused:

[DragonsAion]

Below are the rules that the DM as put forth for those that have been asking. My builds tend to be middle of the road and made for the flavor of things. Or in cases like this the idea of the Swiftblade seems cool and I try to build around that idea.


Basic Character Generation
•Gestalt Characters.
•You can only progress through one prestige class at a time, as per normal Gestalt rules.
•Fractional BAB and saves (please review your character sheets to reflect this).
•32 Point Buy (all abilities must be bought at 8 or higher)
•Up to 2 traits.
•Up to 2 flaws (1 extra feat per each flaw).
•Starting level 1 through 3.
•Max Health (Hit Points) Per Level.
•There will be no multi-class penalties to experience points.
•Once a class skill, always a class skill.
•Class skills for each class should be clearly noted on your character sheet.
•Permanent Intelligence increases do retroactively improve skill points.
•Permanent Constitution increases do retroactively improve hit points.
•Your effective level for a class feature (e.g., for an animal companion) cannot exceed your character level. Feats that combine class features or stack levels of different classes for a given class feature cannot increase your effective level above your character level.

Psionics and MagicPsionics-Magic transparency in effect

Level Adjustment
•Level Adjustment is allowed and takes up one side of the gestalt.
•Only one point of LA at each level (the other side of the gestalt must be a class level or racial HD)
•Use Inevitability's Reassigned Level Adjustments, with the following guidelines:
-•Monsters and templates with ECL 3 or lower are available for use at RFT
-•All PCs must have Int 6 or higher. If you want to play a creature with animal Intelligence or lower, you must use templates, spellcasting services and/or the newly-created Awakened feat by DragonFriend in order to meet the minimum Intelligence score.
-•Existing PCs that use races or templates with reassigned LAs can be converted to take advantage of the new LAs, but only if they are currently at ECL 6 or lower, and only if the conversion involves rebuilding at only 1 or 2 levels. The extent of this rebuilding is replacing points of LA that have been removed with class levels or other templates: no other aspects of the character can be altered at this time.
•No LA buyoff (LA simply counts as a "level").
•So this in effect restricts your starting LA to a +3 since the maximum starting level is 3.
•Any LA beyond 3 must be taken as a progression or racial class from an official source.
•HD and LA from the same source (e.g., a monster class) must be taken on the same side of the gestalt, in succession. You cannot take a racial HD on one side, and a point of LA from the same race at the same level.
•Savage Progressions have LA built in, and this LA is treated as any other.

Sources

Any Official WotC source, including content in the WotC online archives.
Savage Species
Savage Progressions
Dragon Magazine is case by case.
Dragon Compendium is approved
Dungeon Magazine is case by case



Special Cases
Oslecamo's Improved Monster Classes are permitted on a limited basis. This of course is case by case and subject to a lot of review before approval. While this source is allowed, builds that abuse it will not be approved, and the RFT moderators reserve the right to modify anything from Oslecamo classes.

[DragonsAion]

Here is the link to the Monster classes that we can use on a case by case.

Oslecamo's Monster Classes (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=270.0)

[Urudin]

I'd have few questions which might help me giving you advice:

1. What is your character of choice?
2. Do you want normal race, or are more for playing something special?
3. Wizard or generic spellcaster?
4. Would your dm allow mystic ranger early swiftblade entry?
5. Do you want 9 or 10 levels of swiftblade?
6. Are you considering persistent spell buffing, or want to avoid it?
7. Do you want to use anti-magic fields as your tactics?
8. Do you want to be more of a caster with fighting as an insurance, or fighting buffed by casting?

As a DM i have used a lot of swiftblade gestalt builds in my campaign, i can either send you some of them or build you something using Oslecamo monster class (though it would be a lot easier if you'd give type of race you want to play - he has a lot of really powerful stuff, especially in gestalt builds).

[lylsyly]

(we allowed PRCs on both sides and could advance casting of that side only. In fact, the bit about flipping classes from one side to the other was disallowed).


That won't work unless the OP's DM allows for overlapping PrCs, which isn't guaranteed. I do agree, however, that Io7V is THE best defensive class for any arcane gish, including epic.

Which is why I stated that we were using variant rules (I play in a six man group where we all take turns DMing and we usually do 4 games a week and not a single one of us would allow switching a class from one side of a gestalt to another).

Now that they have laid out the rules, Run straight duskblade on one side (except for switching wizard to that side to avoid loss of caster levels). However, you should dip a class that will give the wiz/swiftblade side casting in armor because Duskblade does state that the casting in armor only applies to spells on the Duskblade list.

What I said above still applies, Channeling, A Spellbook, Haste..... Yes Please!

[DragonsAion]

1. What is your character of choice?

-I love conjurers, blasters, and shape changers. Been on a melee kick recently as I've gotten tired of book keeping all the spell options. I've also mostly played mid to rear line types.

2. Do you want normal race, or are more for playing something special?

-I always seem to default to humans, but would like to try something else as long as it fits in with the theme/flavor of the build.

3. Wizard or generic spellcaster?

-Normally prefer sorcerer over wizards due to being able to cast the same spell over and over with worry. Been branching out since Wizard gives me more options at times.

4. Would your dm allow mystic ranger early swiftblade entry?

-As long as it meets the requirements with as little cheese as possible I don't see why they wouldn't.

5. Do you want 9 or 10 levels of swiftblade?

- 10 lvls as Innervated Speed sounds like a lot of fun.

6. Are you considering persistent spell buffing, or want to avoid it?

-Not sure where to stand on this. However, not having to waste time casting spells and always being ready for combat does sound good. I would like to avoid the DMM: persist cheese for now.

7. Do you want to use anti-magic fields as your tactics?

-Sure. Any magic that would buff, debuff, aid in or help with making a quick getaway would be nice.

8. Do you want to be more of a caster with fighting as an insurance, or fighting buffed by casting?

-fighting buffed by casting for this build.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Unless you use 3rd party sources and a psionic adaptation, you can't use swiftblade, but how about playing about with psionics for awhile? There's a lot of fun there, if you like sorcerer types. I love playing shapers, especially with the 3.5 constructor PrC; they're extremely fun and insanely versatile when you think outside the box, even with just a limited number of powers known.

[DragonsAion]

Psionics are just as good as anything else. There is no reason not to include them as they are not banned.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Psionics are just as good as anything else. There is no reason not to include them as they are not banned.There's a psionic version of haste, but it's 3rd party, so as I said, you couldn't use it with swiftblade (StP erudite aside, of course).

You're going for swiftblade this time around, so I'm not going to push it very hard, but if you've never tried playing a psion, it's basically the sorcerer as it should've been written, instead of the hackjob they made of it in the PHB.

[Fouredged Sword]

Another fun one is trapsmith. A cute little rogue Prc that has haste as a first level spell. It makes wizard 5 // spellthief 5 a solid entry with master spelltheif allowing casting in light armor and decent sneak attack.

The final build is wizard 14 / swiftblade 6 // spellthief 11 / trapsmith 5 / spellthief 4.

[lylsyly]

Because the somatic components required for spellthief spells are simple, a spellthief can cast spellthief spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance.

Of course, your DM may allow any casting in light armor.

[Fouredged Sword]

Of course, your DM may allow any casting in light armor.

The master spellthief feat allows ALL arcane casting in light armor.

AND stacks your CL for all arcane caster levels together. This should ether give you a CL of 20 for all arcane spells or with a permissive DM, cl 40.

[lylsyly]

I stand corrected, I had never looked at Master spellthief before.

[Fouredged Sword]

I stand corrected, I had never looked at Master spellthief before.

It is the reason I like spelltheif 1 over rogue 1 in my unseen seer builds.

[Nifft]

It is the reason I like spelltheif 1 over rogue 1 in my unseen seer builds.

This is an excellent reason.

[DragonsAion]

Spellthief and a Prc that gives you a kind of time stop? may need to go back to the drawing board with this one.

[Fouredged Sword]

Yeah, a base of wizard 3 / Spellthief 3 with master spelkthief as your third feat is a solid start. You start as a slightly tougher wizard with some sneak attack, almost rogue skills, and light armor.

The decision point is more spelltheif or more wizard. I prefer wizard 14 / swiftblade 6 // spellthief 16 / swiftblade 4. Master spellthief does not allmow you to steal more total spell levels, so it is good to have enough spellthief levels to hold onto an 9th level spell. Switch swiftblade to the spellthief side for levels with dead casting advancement to keep 20/20 wizard casting and 16/20 spellthief casting with cool self buffs like swift fly and swift invisibility that A, lack saves and B are great to have as spontanious options in your pocket at all times.

Int>dex>con>cha>str>wis.

[DragonsAion]

So with the changeling dual-specialist you have to drop 3 schools of magic. I was thinking of dropping enchantment and evocation. not sure what the third one should be so I thought I would ask for suggestions.

[Fouredged Sword]

Necromancy is a solid option for dropping. You miss out on negative levels, but as a gish you are unlikely to focus on int andndc boosting enough to make debuffs really a solid option, and minionmancy does not really fit a gish ether.

And remember, if you are going wizard//spellthief you can pick up key low level banned spells with spellthief casting and use spell completion items like scrolls for all sorc/wis spells 1-4th due to unrestricted spellthief casting.

Some people will tell you to drop abjuration. I don't like losing energy resistance and immunity spells. Dispel magic is also costly. That said, if you want to talk your DM into allowing you to play a focused specialist changling specialit, that would be my 4th school to drop.

[DragonsAion]

How big of a deal would it be if I changed out Wizard for Sorcerer?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How big of a deal would it be if I changed out Wizard for Sorcerer?No Int synergy, no shapeshifting familiar, no dual-specialization, much worse casting, much worse primary ability score (Cha casting sucks), a few better exclusive spells, no bonus feats, worse skills, and a whole tier lower than you were. Plus, you can get a spontaneous wizard that eats sorcerous casting for breakfast easily enough.

So, y'know, not that good of a switch, really.

[Fouredged Sword]

You COULD do sorcerer, but really full progression prepared casting on top of a little spontanious casting is better than full spontanious casting+ some extra spell slots.

Now, some people prefer sorcerers because they don't like messing around with spell slot prepping, and that is fine.

I wouldn't be worried about mad in a wizard/spellthief build though. A 10 cha and a +4 cloak will get you access to all spellthief casting you need. Spells with saves go in wizard casting. Low level buff and utility (swift fly/invisibility) go in spellthief casting.

[DragonsAion]

I'll see what I can do about linking the Character sheet for your all to look over.