Counterspell vs. a spell without VSM

[Tubben]

Quick question:

Can you counterspell a spell without VSM?

Counterspell says:



Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell

By the wording, a spell without VSM cant be counterspelled, because you have no chance to see, that a spell is being cast.

I looked for a official ruling, but did not find anything.

Edit: Found something : https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/03/12/sorcerer-subtle-spell-vs-counterspell/

A spell without VSM cant be counterspelled.

[Paeleus]

Or if a spell with VSM components is cast by a Sorcerer using the Subtle Spell metamagic, they can't be counterspelled. (Just for full disclosure)

[No brains]

Technically if the caster of counterspell must SEE a spell being cast, doesn't that mean spells with only verbal components are unblockable? If spellcasters wear a little veil, their lips can't be seen as they speak.

[Unoriginal]

Can you counterspell a spell without VSM?


Nope.



But what about the act of casting a spell? Is it possible for someone to perceive that a spell is being cast in their presence? To be perceptible, the casting ofa spell must involve a verbal, somatic, or material component. The form ofa material component doesn’t matter for the purposes of perception, whether it’s an object specified in the spell’s description, a component pouch, or a spellcasting focus.

Xanathar's p. 85.

[Asmotherion]

Don't take what I say as RAW, just how I interpret both the rules, as Well as my personal DMing rules;

There are two ways, with a slight amount of preparation, in case you know you're facing a spellcaster, such as a spellcasting duel:

A) Detect Magic: Having it active allows you to detect at least that "the weave is starting reforming", in other words, that some magic is taking place. Focusing on it, allows you to determin the school of magic, and make an Arcana check with Advantage, to understand what spell is going to be Cast. At that moment, you can Counterspell (as a reaction), targeting who you think the caster might be.

B) Detect Thoughts: If the caster is within range, wile it won't be saying the verbal components out loud, it will at least need some mental effort on it's part. In the case of the Sorcerer's Subtle Spell, he will probably be saying the words mentally. This will allow someone who focuses on the caster to make an Arcana Check, and use Counterspell as a Reaction.

[Tubben]

B) Detect Thoughts: If the caster is within range, wile it won't be saying the verbal components out loud, it will at least need some mental effort on it's part. In the case of the Sorcerer's Subtle Spell, he will probably be saying the words mentally. This will allow someone who focuses on the caster to make an Arcana Check, and use Counterspell as a Reaction.

So he uses an Action to use an Reaction ? (a Readyaction can be triggered by using a Reaction, but thats something different).
I know you said thats how you handle this, but thats not even close to RAW.
But yeah, houserules are houserules :)

[ZorroGames]

Quick question:

Can you counterspell a spell without VSM?

Counterspell says:



By the wording, a spell without VSM cant be counterspelled, because you have no chance to see, that a spell is being cast.

I looked for a official ruling, but did not find anything.

Edit: Found something : https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/03/12/sorcerer-subtle-spell-vs-counterspell/

A spell without VSM cant be counterspelled.

So now I need to go look up how many if those exist just for my sanity’s sake... :smallconfused:

[Vingelot]

So which spell doesn't have VSM? So far as I know, none.

[Unoriginal]

So which spell doesn't have VSM? So far as I know, none.

Sorcerers can get that with Subbtle Spell, and some of the monsters' innate spellcasting (but not all) don't have any component. Most just remove the M component.

[Tanarii]

True Strike arguably just requires pointing at the target as its V component. If they don't think to examine the caster as their reaction, then it's unlikely to be recognized as casting a spell.

Not that any sane player would choose True Strike.

[Spiritchaser]

True Strike arguably just requires pointing at the target as its V component. If they don't think to examine the caster as their reaction, then it's unlikely to be recognized as casting a spell.

Not that any sane player would choose True Strike.

Hmmmn... Many decades ago I gave my players an arrow of disjunction. I could see casting true strike before firing that thing if I ever gave them one again (I likely won’t, lots of extra effort for me in a world where that existed)

[Tubben]

So which spell doesn't have VSM? So far as I know, none.

My mainchar is an Lv 20 Druid ;)


ARCHDRUID
At 20th levei, you can use your Wild Shape an unlimited
number of times.
Additionally, you can ignore the verbal and somatic
components of your druid spells, as well as any material
components that lack a cost and aren't consumed by a
spell. Vou gain this benefit in both your normal shape
and your beast shape from Wild Shape,

[Miz_Liz]

I am pretty sure this is only a house rule but I had a DM that made casters trying to counterspell something like this do a perception check with a high dc. If they passed, that meant they were paying close enough attention to CP in time. If not, they couldn't. Made for a nice happy medium.

[Tanarii]

I am pretty sure this is only a house rule but I had a DM that made casters trying to counterspell something like this do a perception check with a high dc. If they passed, that meant they were paying close enough attention to CP in time. If not, they couldn't. Made for a nice happy medium.
Technically it's a ruling, not a house rule. You can Counterspell any spell being cast within range. But the DM is supposed to set an ability check any time they deem there is a question of resolution. ie something doesn't happen automatically or fail automatically. Like knowing/perceiving a spell is being cast, so you can Counterspell.

[Naanomi]

Like some of the others above, I allow it if you have some other form of detecting the spell available... Detect Magic or any form of telepathy. We even had a magic item: Goggles of perminant Detect Magic that were designed for Mage-gladiator combatants

[Monster Manuel]

So he uses an Action to use an Reaction ? (a Readyaction can be triggered by using a Reaction, but thats something different).
I know you said thats how you handle this, but thats not even close to RAW.
But yeah, houserules are houserules :)

I think this works, RAW. He's maintaining concentration on Detect Thoughts. Uses his action to focus on the surface thoughts of the dude who's been casting all the fire bolts. On his turn, Fire Bolt Dude thinks "I'ma cast a fireball now, better make it Subtle so they can't counterspell me". Detect Thoughts Guy uses his reaction to counterspell, because he is aware of a spell being cast.

The house rule here is whether or not the surface thoughts would be sufficient to trigger the reaction to Counterspell. I would rule that it does, in my game, for what it's worth. But I see no problem, RAW, with using his action to set up a scenario where he can use his reaction later.

[Willie the Duck]

Technically if the caster of counterspell must SEE a spell being cast, doesn't that mean spells with only verbal components are unblockable? If spellcasters wear a little veil, their lips can't be seen as they speak.

I would rule that this gamebook rule is using colloquial understanding of SEEing the spell be cast, so in my game, a caster who could HEAR the verbal components could do so, as could a grimlock spellcaster who sonically 'saw' it happen.

[Tanarii]

Technically if the caster of counterspell must SEE a spell being cast, doesn't that mean spells with only verbal components are unblockable? If spellcasters wear a little veil, their lips can't be seen as they speak.


I would rule that this gamebook rule is using colloquial understanding of SEEing the spell be cast, so in my game, a caster who could HEAR the verbal components could do so, as could a grimlock spellcaster who sonically 'saw' it happen.
You don't need to be able to see a spell being cast to Counterspell it. Just perceive it (per Xanathar's).