(Spheres of Power) Trickster's Handbook Open Beta

[Dys Dogeater]

For those to who are unfamiliar, Drop Dead Studios (http://www.dropdeadstudios.com/) provides Spheres of Power (http://paizo.com/products/btpy96pr?Spheres-of-Power) alternate magic system, each expanding upon a single theme of magic.

I am the author for The Trickster's Handbook (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1utQJuCaLEGv-S52XtutWqj1sbu7sQAZ4vHrblR8ZeNo/edit?usp=sharing) a new addition that focuses on and expands the perception altering magics of Illusion.

This is the first of my work to be published and I am looking forward to your (hopefully constructive) criticisms and input to insure my first release is a good one. Thank you for your help.

[Galacktic]

Reading through it now, this is excellent so far! My roommate definitely agrees, and they were incredibly worried about the Illusion handbook specifically because it's such a tricky subject to write about. She says that you've -far- exceeded her expectations and she greatly appreciates this! We'll both keep peeking at this and coming up with what ideas and criticisms we can - we both -adore- the giant talent and feat list though, those are amazing.

[Dys Dogeater]

Thank you, I was actually kind of worried that much of the time and space spent on this was overly directed at "fixing" everything wrong with illusion rather than adding to it. By all means if anyone has suggestions for things that may have gotten left out or missed feel free to discuss them here. I'll be anxiously monitoring this thread as well as the document itself.

[Mithril Leaf]

It would be nice to have specified what can and cannot be made permanent via Permanent Image.

[Dys Dogeater]

It would be nice to have specified what can and cannot be made permanent via Permanent Image.

Going back and looking at even the base SoP a limiter needs to be put on permanent image not only in type of illusions but also and possibly more importantly the number of illusions that you are allowed to have permanent at any given time.

I am now cackling at the prospect of a bored CE Lv 10 illusionist with nothing but base sphere, lingering, touch x2 and perm image that sets every peasant hut he sees on "fire" for 3 spell points and it lasts until... well forever. I'm all for mayhem but "infinitely on imaginary fire" seems like one of those things that should have a bit more investment.

[Mithril Leaf]

Going back and looking at even the base SoP a limiter needs to be put on permanent image not only in type of illusions but also and possibly more importantly the number of illusions that you are allowed to have permanent at any given time.

I am now cackling at the prospect of a bored CE Lv 10 illusionist with nothing but base sphere, lingering, touch x2 and perm image that sets every peasant hut he sees on "fire" for 3 spell points and it lasts until... well forever. I'm all for mayhem but "infinitely on imaginary fire" seems like one of those things that should have a bit more investment.

I actually love the fact that the permanent options are not limited in raw number for world building purposes. It's cool as heck that you can have a character who's whole deal is just traveling the world and creating imaginary but extremely high end brothels. However it's not super great that you can have like, a permanently invisible party from level 8 if you're very focused.

[khadgar567]

can we get invisibilty enchant for armour to

[EldritchWeaver]

However it's not super great that you can have like, a permanently invisible party from level 8 if you're very focused.

How do they interact with other people? "Don't worry, mam, I'm just invisible, not a ghost!"

[Dragolord]

The sensory section at the end doesn't seem to specify what happens when a creature has lost its senses, or they shouldn't apply to the illusion. Should an echolocating creature automatically be able to see through a soundless illusion when one or both of them are inside an area of silence? What happens when the creature mistakenly believes that they are?

[Mithril Leaf]

How do they interact with other people? "Don't worry, mam, I'm just invisible, not a ghost!"

Create temporary illusions of bodies around the illusions of invisibility!

[Mehangel]

The sensory section at the end doesn't seem to specify what happens when a creature has lost its senses, or they shouldn't apply to the illusion. Should an echolocating creature automatically be able to see through a soundless illusion when one or both of them are inside an area of silence? What happens when the creature mistakenly believes that they are?

There are two sections which might interest you:


For suppressions: If all senses that make up the complex sense are suppressed by the effect, the complex sense fails to penetrate that area. When using Silence as a glamer, the affected creature treats all complex senses with all their base components suppressed as having range of 0.


Unless specifically noted, normally lacking the ability to experience a sensation created by an illusion does not render a creature automatically unaffected by it. Creating a sensation, a creature cannot normally experience, should grant the creature a Will save with a +2 circumstance bonus for each alien sensation and they are automatically treated as interacting with the illusion the instant they experience any sensation.

[Dys Dogeater]

It seems the most sensible compromise for the conundrum of permanent illusions would be that firstly they need to be figments and immobile and secondly need to be harmless in and of themselves.

Like fake bridges and concealed pits are still good but infinitely unquenchable fire is not.

I suppose it should also be clarified that they are allowed to continue to exist outside of your illusion range.

Give me the obvious things missed by this lol.

[EldritchWeaver]

It seems the most sensible compromise for the conundrum of permanent illusions would be that firstly they need to be figments and immobile and secondly need to be harmless in and of themselves.

Like fake bridges and concealed pits are still good but infinitely unquenchable fire is not.

I suppose it should also be clarified that they are allowed to continue to exist outside of your illusion range.

Give me the obvious things missed by this lol.

Maybe make the non-harmless part then an advanced talent?

BTW, I didn't get around answering some threads because I was busy (still am) with the Wild Magic book. So I'll have to reopen them at some point. No disrespect.

[The Vagabond]

So far, everything in the Archetype section looks awesome, though I do find a lot of them... Peculiar. Most of these archetypes seem a bit too similar, with little differentiating them aside from a handful of talents. You could probably save a whole page by turning them into one archetype, as they all affect classes with similar base structures and abilities. That might just be me, though. Alternatively, you could make another level of casting, like a Minor Mage, which functions like this. I can see some use from all the archetypes therein. The Solipsist is exactly what I've always wanted, and I am very happy right now. I just wish that the new Rogue archetype wouldn't replace trapfinding, or work for the Unchained rogue.

Really should try playing a Hedge Witch someday, but I always find the class so... Boring? Probably just me, but nothing about it grabs me.

The new Class Talents are nifty, though, as are the magical talents.


It seems the most sensible compromise for the conundrum of permanent illusions would be that firstly they need to be figments and immobile and secondly need to be harmless in and of themselves.
Like fake bridges and concealed pits are still good but infinitely unquenchable fire is not.
I suppose it should also be clarified that they are allowed to continue to exist outside of your illusion range.
Give me the obvious things missed by this lol.
You could probably just hammer out a new category of talent- Maliase. Like figments, but DAMN THEY HURT.

[stack]

The permanent image discussion reminds me of a random thought I had awhile ago; warp + illusion to make a private demiplane populated entirely with illusions, where the caster had a mental breakdown, so each illusory person was actually controlled by a fragment of his mind.

Then they rebel against the caster.:smallbiggrin:

[Mithril Leaf]

It seems the most sensible compromise for the conundrum of permanent illusions would be that firstly they need to be figments and immobile and secondly need to be harmless in and of themselves.

Like fake bridges and concealed pits are still good but infinitely unquenchable fire is not.

I suppose it should also be clarified that they are allowed to continue to exist outside of your illusion range.

Give me the obvious things missed by this lol.

I think immobile is a bit too strong, can we maybe limit them to being within your illusion range of their starting location? I really want my fake cities to keep being a thing.

I also think it could be useful to specify how adding talents adjusts the figment classification.

[Dys Dogeater]

So far, everything in the Archetype section looks awesome, though I do find a lot of them... Peculiar. Most of these archetypes seem a bit too similar, with little differentiating them aside from a handful of talents. You could probably save a whole page by turning them into one archetype, as they all affect classes with similar base structures and abilities. That might just be me, though. Alternatively, you could make another level of casting, like a Minor Mage, which functions like this. I can see some use from all the archetypes therein. The Solipsist is exactly what I've always wanted, and I am very happy right now. I just wish that the new Rogue archetype wouldn't replace trapfinding, or work for the Unchained rogue.

I had to chuckle a bit about this. Initially the rogue & ninja archetypes were one and the same. It was however pointed out that there is no precedent where one archetype applied to two classes (even if one of them is an alternate class). Archetype packages were close to this idea but did not grant the latitude to express the concept I had in mind and maintain balance.


I think immobile is a bit too strong, can we maybe limit them to being within your illusion range of their starting location? I really want my fake cities to keep being a thing.

By immobile I meant that the illusion area is fixed not that individual components of that illusion such as those granted by the complex illusion talent cannot still move within it. This would still allow for imaginary cities and the like but prevent for example an army of imaginary friends built up over years to be unleashed upon the world.


I also think it could be useful to specify how adding talents adjusts the figment classification.

I think this is covered, but perhaps you are seeing something I am not. Can you give me an example of something that would adjust the classification of an illusion as a figment and I'll see if it can be explained by what is already written?

[Mehangel]

I had to chuckle a bit about this. Initially the rogue & ninja archetypes were one and the same. It was however pointed out that there is no precedent where one archetype applied to two classes (even if one of them is an alternate class). Archetype packages were close to this idea but did not grant the latitude to express the concept I had in mind and maintain balance.

Dreamscarred Press introduced Class Templates (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/martial-class-templates/) which are archetypes that can be applied to multiple classes.

[Dys Dogeater]

Dreamscarred Press introduced Class Templates (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/martial-class-templates/) which are archetypes that can be applied to multiple classes.

I found the same issue with those that I did with the Archetype packages, they are not terribly different things ultimately.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

I found the same issue with those that I did with the Archetype packages, they are not terribly different things ultimately.

What issue was that?

[Dys Dogeater]

I ultimately needed to change out more things than the standard package allowed and it seemed imbalanced against the trade out.

[Dys Dogeater]

Okay now that I have a few of the more obvious changes in the works lets get back to piling on new ideas and fielding questions.


can we get invisibilty enchant for armour to

I'm not opposed to any idea but what do you think invisible armor would do that is not covered by "glamered". Are you talking about armor that renders the WEARER invisible? That is pretty cool and I don't think it exists yet. I'd imagine due to the power of that effect it would have to be a "(X) times per day" or have a significantly reduced miss chance compared to standard invisibility.


You could probably just hammer out a new category of talent- Maliase. Like figments, but DAMN THEY HURT.

Believe it or not with the right combination of talents illusions can dish out levels and types of suffering that would make a blaster blush. It's just not "burst" damage or nuking. To be honest I like it that way and turning up the output would quickly make illusion the go to for combat. Shadow infusion+hostile glamers+mass glamers= "Everyone I can see and don't like is going to continue melting until I get bored". No DR, No Energy Resist, Nowhere to run and Nowhere to hide.


Maybe make the non-harmless part then an advanced talent?

Permanent Illusion is already an advanced talent, It definitely needs fixed but it feels odd to errata something out of an ability only to re-add it as a character building tax. Not saying that I disagree with separating these things and solving it in exactly the way you are suggesting but it is bound to bring about some grumbling.


The permanent image discussion reminds me of a random thought I had awhile ago; warp + illusion to make a private demiplane populated entirely with illusions, where the caster had a mental breakdown, so each illusory person was actually controlled by a fragment of his mind.

Have you looked at "phantom mind" advanced talent yet? "Do you want Tyler Durdens? Because that's how you get Tyler Durdens." I am also kinda on the fence about a creature template still sitting in my scraps called "renegade illusion" so that after your mage gets eaten by his imaginary friends we have the rules to explain that they just go on pretending to be alive and are unleashed into an unsuspecting world.

[Scowling Dragon]

Has turning weapons invisible been addressed? I'm just wondering.

Also can I make explosives invisible? Not make illusionary explosives, but make my spell attacks invisible. If I do that what happens then?

Just asking.

[Dys Dogeater]

Has turning weapons invisible been addressed? I'm just wondering.

It has indeed, It is in the back with the rest of the gear "Invisible" is a +3 weapon enhancement.


Also can I make explosives invisible? Not make illusionary explosives, but make my spell attacks invisible. If I do that what happens then?

I got you there as well and even better than what you are asking, with the right investment it can't be heard, smelled or felt and hides its own aura too.

You are looking for the "Suppressed Spell" Metamagic feat for any and all of your clandestine demolition needs.

[Mithril Leaf]

I think this is covered, but perhaps you are seeing something I am not. Can you give me an example of something that would adjust the classification of an illusion as a figment and I'll see if it can be explained by what is already written?

My main issue is that for some reason Complex Illusion has the figment descriptor, but say Illusionary Odor does not. Does that mean things made with a figment and a sensory talent combined would not be able to be made permanent? What actually is a figment? I was thinking that it would be any of that fake stuff you can make, but it seems like most of those are actually sensory. There seems to me to be a weird sort of combination of figment as a type of thing you can make and also a tag for certain talents. I at the very least can't tell the difference well.

[EldritchWeaver]

I can't remember, if you already have a way to beat True Sight ala Lurker or similar.

[Scowling Dragon]

It has indeed, It is in the back with the rest of the gear "Invisible" is a +3 weapon enhancement.

Its an immensely weak enchantment for +3 and Im not even sure it would be worth even a +1 enchantment. Its essentially a weapon you have to dodge out of gut instinct and no pattern or trail, and all it does is give bonuses to feint?



I got you there as well and even better than what you are asking, with the right investment it can't be heard, smelled or felt and hides its own aura too.
You are looking for the "Suppressed Spell" Metamagic feat for any and all of your clandestine demolition needs.

Would you mind explaining in more detail what kind of saves you get for instance from an invisble spell?

[Lirya]

Is there any chance we can get an advanced talent that allows your illusory tentacles/web grapple enemies?

[Scowling Dragon]

Anyway, what I mean by invisible weapons isn't a weapon quality. Its what happens when your attacked by invisible things?

Let's say invisible rocks fall on you, is the argument that they are no harder to dodge then visible rocks falling on you?

[Dys Dogeater]

My main issue is that for some reason Complex Illusion has the figment descriptor, but say Illusionary Odor does not. Does that mean things made with a figment and a sensory talent combined would not be able to be made permanent? What actually is a figment? I was thinking that it would be any of that fake stuff you can make, but it seems like most of those are actually sensory. There seems to me to be a weird sort of combination of figment as a type of thing you can make and also a tag for certain talents. I at the very least can't tell the difference well.

At the beginning of the basic magic section where these descriptors are listed:

(Sensory) talents are talents that modify all illusions by expanding what senses are able to be modified, created or subverted. this means figments, glamers as well as figments/glamers modified by the shadow descriptor and/or have been made permanent.

It may also be of interest to your designs to look at the table on fooling exotic senses in the back for guidance on applying sensory talents to your permanent figments. Just to make sure the first dragon that ambles along can't just go "I have blindsense, and this is fake"


I can't remember, if you already have a way to beat True Sight ala Lurker or similar.

I think lurker in darkness did a pretty good job already, and was expanded upon by the divination handbook to enhance compatibility with SoP. Derfael (diviners handbook) and I did a great deal of collaboration in the deescalation of the arms race between illusions and divination to a more reasonable level. Using the rules for fooling exotic senses in the back should bring most conflicts down to player skill and what sphere talents are in play on both sides. There will still be either a skill check, will save, or magic skill check often with the better equipped/prepared side having an advantage.


Its an immensely weak enchantment for +3 and Im not even sure it would be worth even a +1 enchantment. Its essentially a weapon you have to dodge out of gut instinct and no pattern or trail, and all it does is give bonuses to feint?

The model I used was that of a weapon that provides a feat is a +1 bonus. It provides 2 feats as well as several small skill bonuses. Now that I have gotten that out of the way, I actually agree with you this is an instance of sound reasoning and math that ultimately does not equate to the total envisioned. It will be reworked shortly but ultimately the goal remains that the weapon is easy to conceal and will make some (but not every) attack(s) that deny dexterity bonus to AC.


Would you mind explaining in more detail what kind of saves you get for instance from an invisible spell?

That metamagic feat is not really intended to change the way saves work or add additional ones. Sniping with an AOE or spell that not based on attack rolls is a better model for what I had in mind for this. Dropping a fireball, acid cloud or chain lightning and hoping that no one makes their perception check so that you can keep doing it. The spell still does it's damage, the save DC is unchanged and everything else functions normally but the victims may be left confused and wondering why things just suddenly hurt.

Additionally for more intrigue type of stuff because it is based on your illusion sphere talents this feat + manipulate aura automatically resists divination that may reveal say warp, mind or alteration (or any other magic you would like to be slightly more discrete with but was already not super flashy)


Is there any chance we can get an advanced talent that allows your illusory tentacles/web grapple enemies?

The fluff is not explicit but hey its your illusion and it looks like whatever you say it looks like, take a look at the Illusory Labyrinth talent. Added bonus for that gimmick: there is a trick version so your illusionist can just reach out with its imaginary "tentacle(s)" and move the pawns to more convenient locations on the battlefield. Expanding upon that idea, Talented Trickster talent paired with the trick from B]Illusory Labyrinth[/B] would provide for uncomfortable amounts of "tentacles"

Alternatively you could just use shadow magic (conjuration) to create a creature that grabs things... but that idea was less interesting and exciting to me.


Anyway, what I mean by invisible weapons isn't a weapon quality. Its what happens when your attacked by invisible things?

Let's say invisible rocks fall on you, is the argument that they are no harder to dodge then visible rocks falling on you?

Not saying that this isn't related to illusion but it is mostly already covered by other rules. Barring a rockslide or cave-in of material that is naturally invisible (anything is possible but that is very specific) we can assume someone made rocks invisible, presumably for the purpose of a trap or being dropped on/thrown at someone.

Option A) this is done remotely I would use the rules for traps/trap making as a quick and simple way to handle this and just adjust the reflex save and perception checks (and cost) according to those rules to represent the invisibility component (some fluff may be necessary).

Option B) they are being manually dropped or thrown and the rules for invisibility combined with the rules for falling objects or throwing improvised weapons already sort of cover that situation. You are making a ranged touch attack against their AC (without a dex bonus if invisiblity is in play).

You are however completely correct in pointing out that (to the best of my knowledge) it is not explicitly stated that being invisible while dropping/throwing an object at someone (as covered by the rules) is the same thing as dropping/throwing an invisible object at someone. I will be happy to rectify that oversight. It will be added shortly to the back of the book with the other clarifications and suggested errata.

[Mithril Leaf]

At the beginning of the basic magic section where these descriptors are listed:
this means figments, glamers as well as figments/glamers modified by the shadow descriptor and/or have been made permanent.

It may also be of interest to your designs to look at the table on fooling exotic senses in the back for guidance on applying sensory talents to your permanent figments. Just to make sure the first dragon that ambles along can't just go "I have blindsense, and this is fake"


So what is the actual point of the figment descriptor on certain talents then? Does it actually do anything?

EDIT: Like why is Inspire Doubt a figment?
Anyone who successfully saves against your figments takes a -1 penalty to all saving throws and MSD against your other sphere effects and abilities for the next minute or until they attempt a save. This penalty increases by an additional one per 5 caster levels you possess.

[A.J.Gibson]

Is there any chance we can get an advanced talent that allows your illusory tentacles/web grapple enemies?

Why would this be advanced? It's not game breaking. The real problem is that once you say that illusion can duplicate the effects of other spheres by making illusions of them, illusion becomes the most versatile sphere. As a class (the fey adept) this is fine, but once you open the door to creature illusions, trap illusions, hazard illusions, and so forth, you're making it harder for other spheres to hold onto their niche.

[Dys Dogeater]

So what is the actual point of the figment descriptor on certain talents then? Does it actually do anything?

EDIT: Like why is Inspire Doubt a figment?
Anyone who successfully saves against your figments takes a -1 penalty to all saving throws and MSD against your other sphere effects and abilities for the next minute or until they attempt a save. This penalty increases by an additional one per 5 caster levels you possess.

The distinction is important because mechanically speaking they work completely different than glamers.

Glamers are (will: harmless) buffs or modifications that usually add a skill bonus cast on a creature or object. Figments are (will: disbelief) abilities cast on an area. With noted case specific exceptions such as hostile glamers no one even attempts to save against a glamer.

Glamers stick to the thing they are placed on no matter how far away they are from the illusionist. Figments must be moved and with the exceptions we have already discussed of things like permanence cannot leave the range of their caster.

Glamers often have an effect even if you know they are illusions (invisiblity or disguise for example). Figments are completely ignored when you know they are illusions/disbelieved.

Inspire doubt is basically "I threw a fake fireball and you knew it was fake so I am going to throw a real one right at your face and you don't dodge because you think that one is fake too" This does not work with "I tried to make you invisible and you didn't want to be so now you suck at dodging" There is no sensible explanation for how inspire doubt would be effective with a glamer.

[EldritchWeaver]

I think lurker in darkness did a pretty good job already, and was expanded upon by the divination handbook to enhance compatibility with SoP. Derfael (diviners handbook) and I did a great deal of collaboration in the deescalation of the arms race between illusions and divination to a more reasonable level. Using the rules for fooling exotic senses in the back should bring most conflicts down to player skill and what sphere talents are in play on both sides. There will still be either a skill check, will save, or magic skill check often with the better equipped/prepared side having an advantage.

So how do I beat the automatic part of True Sight?

[Dys Dogeater]

So how do I beat the automatic part of True Sight?

Just add shadow infusion to anything and the worst that anyone can do is reduce it to half as effective. True Sight (divination sphere) is only a bonus to will saves. True Sight (fey adept class ability) get comfortable with the fact that you can't fool them or drop Ocular Oblivion (this was carefully worded to work on such things) on them and wait for it to pass. True Seeing (Spell) suffers from the same vulnerability that the fey adept does. You cannot hide but you can prevent them from looking.

Given my long time hatred of people snooping on my spell-sneak characters, I like to set traps for people who look at me with true seeing. Find anything that is hazardous to look at and use illusions to hide it, keep this on you at all times. People need to learn to mind their own business.

[Lirya]

Why would this be advanced? It's not game breaking. The real problem is that once you say that illusion can duplicate the effects of other spheres by making illusions of them, illusion becomes the most versatile sphere. As a class (the fey adept) this is fine, but once you open the door to creature illusions, trap illusions, hazard illusions, and so forth, you're making it harder for other spheres to hold onto their niche.

It is advanced because clearly you need a minimum of tactile illusions before you can convince someone that they are being grappled by tentacles.

As for why grapple, imo Phantasmal Web (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedPlayersGuide/spells/phantasmalWeb.html) from pathfinder and Phantasmal Strangler from dnd 3.5 are both fairly iconic illusion spells (if you go outside the normal images/blur/invisibility).

[Mithril Leaf]

The distinction is important because mechanically speaking they work completely different than glamers.

Glamers are (will: harmless) buffs or modifications that usually add a skill bonus cast on a creature or object. Figments are (will: disbelief) abilities cast on an area. With noted case specific exceptions such as hostile glamers no one even attempts to save against a glamer.

Glamers stick to the thing they are placed on no matter how far away they are from the illusionist. Figments must be moved and with the exceptions we have already discussed of things like permanence cannot leave the range of their caster.

Glamers often have an effect even if you know they are illusions (invisiblity or disguise for example). Figments are completely ignored when you know they are illusions/disbelieved.

Inspire doubt is basically "I threw a fake fireball and you knew it was fake so I am going to throw a real one right at your face and you don't dodge because you think that one is fake too" This does not work with "I tried to make you invisible and you didn't want to be so now you suck at dodging" There is no sensible explanation for how inspire doubt would be effective with a glamer.

It's not that I think Inspire Doubt should be a Glamer, it's that I don't see why it's a Figment. Are you trying to specify that Figment is a catch all for any illusion that isn't anything else? If that's the case than why does it need to be anything specific at all?

[Dys Dogeater]

It's not that I think Inspire Doubt should be a Glamer, it's that I don't see why it's a Figment. Are you trying to specify that Figment is a catch all for any illusion that isn't anything else? If that's the case than why does it need to be anything specific at all?

Give me the benefit of a doubt here, I am going to get very very specific and give what is likely far too many examples to get my point across this is not done with a tone of condescension but in the hopes that I can determine where the break down in communication is with your help. Further, in writing this response I have come to realize that the practice of applying tags to things as this system has developed has also evolved a bit and because of that there are some inconsistencies. I will be passing on what I have just noticed in researching your question to the rest of the team and I genuinely want to thank you for helping us make this a better and easier to understand system.

Minor inconsistencies aside, the framework is pretty strong for what a tag means and how it should be used. There are variations because of how very different the spheres work but they all mean the same thing. It is just to reference already listed rules stated in other abilities.

Inspire doubt is a (figment) because it only modifies or add functions to the (figment) rules, it otherwise follows all the other rules for what has already been defined as (figment). When you break it down almost any tag added to a sphere effect is just a shortcut to avoid having to type out the same rules over and over and over again. If you see (Figment) just read it as "(illusion cast on an area, following all the previously listed rules regarding illusions cast upon an area plus whatever new rules are added by this talent regarding illusions cast upon an area)"

If it helps, a close approximation of why that tag is added is the same reason the (nimbus) tag was added in the illuminator handbook to denote that it modifies how the the Glow base ability functions, If they were called (Glow) talents instead of (Nimbus) this would be the exact same thing.

Another good example of this practice is in the base SoP book. Viewing (divine) the divine tag is added because it modifies a base ability not because it in and of itself is a new type of that ability. Otherwise it uses all the same rules for that ability except what it explicitly modifies or what you have modified by gaining other talents.

The best and actually almost perfect example of the exact same thing is Protection sphere (Ward) is roughly equivalent to (Figment), it is an the protection sphere ability that is cast on an area. All Protection sphere talents that have the (Ward) tag follow the rules of (ward) or modify the rules of (ward). (Aegis) is roughly equivalent to (Glamer), it is a protection sphere ability cast on a creature. All Protection sphere talents that have the (Aegis) tag follow the rules of (aegis) or modify the rules of (aegis).

Is there anything I/we can do to make the tags system more universal or easier to understand in the future?

[A.J.Gibson]

It is advanced because clearly you need a minimum of tactile illusions before you can convince someone that they are being grappled by tentacles.

As for why grapple, imo Phantasmal Web (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedPlayersGuide/spells/phantasmalWeb.html) from pathfinder and Phantasmal Strangler from dnd 3.5 are both fairly iconic illusion spells (if you go outside the normal images/blur/invisibility).

Advanced talent are talents that require GM permission to take because they can disrupt some types of campaigns; things like resurrection or mind reading. A tangling effect is not advanced. If a talent requires prerequisites, then it is a feat.

More importantly, just because phantasmal web is in PF doesn't mean it has to be a certain sphere in SoP. The Illusion sphere covers mental illusions, but not the 'illusionary matter' aspect PF and D&D like to give illusions. Spontaneous creating matter to control the battlefield is Creation's thing, and I really hope other spheres don't start to steal it's best combat trick.

[The Vagabond]

... What if we make an Illusion talent that lessens the cost for the Creation sphere?
Like, an Illusion talent that allows you to reduce the cost of your Illusions by 1 spell point by making it out of shadowstuff, therefore allowing a will saving throw. More cross-class than most talents, but it's a way of preventing that overlap.

[digiman619]

... What if we make an Illusion talent that lessens the cost for the Creation sphere?
Like, an Illusion talent that allows you to reduce the cost of your Illusions by 1 spell point by making it out of shadowstuff, therefore allowing a will saving throw. More cross-class than most talents, but it's a way of preventing that overlap.
That would more likely be a Dual Sphere feat (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/dual-sphere-feats) than a new talent.

[A.J.Gibson]

Inspire doubt is a (figment) because it only modifies or add functions to the (figment) rules, it otherwise follows all the other rules for what has already been defined as (figment).

Is the inspire doubt effect itself a figment? As in, the penalty is an illusion and can removed by disbelieving in it?

[Dys Dogeater]

Just a general public update now that I have a moment: I have had a rather packed schedule for the past 2 days and will continue to be more busy than usual for the next few. Working with you all has with rare exception has been a pleasure and I am having fun doing it. I am eagerly checking every comment and suggestion made when I get a chance but responding as quickly and with the depth I would prefer to each individual note is not an option right now. So I doing an update here for everyone at once.

Lots of good and even some frankly brilliant suggestions have come up over the past day or two on the document. Better still some of you are fielding the questions and concerns of others. I want to (and eventually will) thank many of you personally.

Overall most of the changes and adjustments that need to be made are minor missteps of balance or clarity. A few of the issues questioning balance to the point of things needing to be outright scrubbed I believe are issues that simply need context, comparison or discussions of underlying purpose to make them seem less imbalanced.

Two things keep coming up and definitely will have changes implemented. These are moderately significant changes and more detailed discussion, suggestions and even complaints/support will go a long way in insuring that they are for the better.

#1: Archetypes Several of them are very similar, and as mentioned earlier in this thread much of that is due to a very weird place occupied by alternate, hybrid or unchained variants of the same class only being Mostly compatible. If it were not for the fact that some other classes can sometimes take talents from the rogue/ninja/unchained rogue/unchained ninja/investigator I would be inclined to make a couple of lengthy and complex talent trees/feats with the limitations of those related classes (and only those classes) in mind.

#1.1Small slightly off topic outburst: "rogue/ninja/unchained rogue/unchained ninja/investigator talents". Seriously this has officially gotten out of hand at this point I demand to know the worst thing that could of happened if we just left them "rogue" talents with class/alternate/hybrid class feature prerequisites. On second thought, don't tell me... the worst thing that could happen is likely obvious and horrific enough that I will feel really stupid when it gets explained to me. Some things are better left a mystery so that I have something to rail against in willful ignorance. (Do not take this, anything I say or even me as person seriously)

Moving along

#2 Suppression advanced talents Specifically occular oblivion, opinion is all over the place. Is it too far? not too far enough? The end of the civilization as we know it?

The real questions I want a poll on before we get to if it is or isn't... something. Keeping in mind that these are based on silence and that is what I modeled them after. Mathematically speaking silence is more powerful than Energy Resistance (protection sphere) defensively speaking vs. sonic. Offensively speaking It also negates roughly 2/3s of all bard abilities, Language and sound effects, Fate (Words) because the fluff states they are spoken as well as all spell casting with verbal components (Roughly 80% of all traditional spells) All without a save (if cast on an area)

Do you feel that silence is heavily imbalanced or of roughly the power of other talents?

Do you feel that this (or any suppression talent for that matter) is more imbalanced or less imbalanced on its own than silence?

Ignoring the suppression talents added in this book do you believe that silence behaves like an illusion? And if so, what other illusion spells are also like silence and in what way?

#>9000 PS: I had an epiphany regarding the archetypes and the hurdles involved in getting things the way I envisioned them with the least compromises for me (and those of you who end up playing them). Too complex and half baked at this juncture to go into depth but the spirit of those archetypes will remain, it will just take time and that is at a premium currently.

And thank you all again for your help.

[Dys Dogeater]

Is the inspire doubt effect itself a figment? As in, the penalty is an illusion and can removed by disbelieving in it?

Even with what I am about to say in mind I will be adding some language clarifying that. If I can prevent even one argument at the game table with a single sentence the effort is well spent.

Each figment talent has the rules for what the results of a failed or successful save self contained within the talent. The only thing unique about inspire doubt is that the undesired effect is attached to a successful save rather than a failed one (It is odd but it is also consistent).

The only thing that has been specified as universal to a disbelieved figment is that 1) You are aware of it's nature and 2) it becomes transparent.

Congratulations, you successfully disbelieved inspire doubt!!! and for your trouble you are granted awareness that the penalty is an illusion giving you a penalty to your saves. Better still you can see through the aforementioned penalty clearly enough to be horrified by the next awful thing coming, while understanding that you are less prepared to deal with it.

I feel the need to make it clear that while I am being incredibly sarcastic it is (and almost always will be) a friendly joke. I just am that person. I take a massive charisma score penalty via text and quickly go from lovable ball busting scamp to just a needlessly mean person without my facial expressions and body language to punctuate it.

[Scowling Dragon]

When in doubt, have something be a scaling ability that activates at a higher cl

[Mithril Leaf]

Give me the benefit of a doubt here, I am going to get very very specific and give what is likely far too many examples to get my point across this is not done with a tone of condescension but in the hopes that I can determine where the break down in communication is with your help. Further, in writing this response I have come to realize that the practice of applying tags to things as this system has developed has also evolved a bit and because of that there are some inconsistencies. I will be passing on what I have just noticed in researching your question to the rest of the team and I genuinely want to thank you for helping us make this a better and easier to understand system.

Minor inconsistencies aside, the framework is pretty strong for what a tag means and how it should be used. There are variations because of how very different the spheres work but they all mean the same thing. It is just to reference already listed rules stated in other abilities.

Inspire doubt is a (figment) because it only modifies or add functions to the (figment) rules, it otherwise follows all the other rules for what has already been defined as (figment). When you break it down almost any tag added to a sphere effect is just a shortcut to avoid having to type out the same rules over and over and over again. If you see (Figment) just read it as "(illusion cast on an area, following all the previously listed rules regarding illusions cast upon an area plus whatever new rules are added by this talent regarding illusions cast upon an area)"

If it helps, a close approximation of why that tag is added is the same reason the (nimbus) tag was added in the illuminator handbook to denote that it modifies how the the Glow base ability functions, If they were called (Glow) talents instead of (Nimbus) this would be the exact same thing.

Another good example of this practice is in the base SoP book. Viewing (divine) the divine tag is added because it modifies a base ability not because it in and of itself is a new type of that ability. Otherwise it uses all the same rules for that ability except what it explicitly modifies or what you have modified by gaining other talents.

The best and actually almost perfect example of the exact same thing is Protection sphere (Ward) is roughly equivalent to (Figment), it is an the protection sphere ability that is cast on an area. All Protection sphere talents that have the (Ward) tag follow the rules of (ward) or modify the rules of (ward). (Aegis) is roughly equivalent to (Glamer), it is a protection sphere ability cast on a creature. All Protection sphere talents that have the (Aegis) tag follow the rules of (aegis) or modify the rules of (aegis).

Is there anything I/we can do to make the tags system more universal or easier to understand in the future?

That does help a lot, although it does make the sensory talents a bit strange considering the fact that they also by and large modify the base figment ability. I think if it had been part of the book back in the very early days and applied more consistently over the course of the books it would probably have been more clear. Maybe it could include some degree of text stating something along the lines of:

Figment talents include those that augment or modify your base Illusion Figment. You may apply as many of these talents per casting as are applicable.

[EldritchWeaver]

Just add shadow infusion to anything and the worst that anyone can do is reduce it to half as effective. True Sight (divination sphere) is only a bonus to will saves. True Sight (fey adept class ability) get comfortable with the fact that you can't fool them or drop Ocular Oblivion (this was carefully worded to work on such things) on them and wait for it to pass. True Seeing (Spell) suffers from the same vulnerability that the fey adept does. You cannot hide but you can prevent them from looking.

Given my long time hatred of people snooping on my spell-sneak characters, I like to set traps for people who look at me with true seeing. Find anything that is hazardous to look at and use illusions to hide it, keep this on you at all times. People need to learn to mind their own business.

I did mean true seeing (which is also a talent). I'm not really happy with the solution as you sketched ("Gaze upon me and suffer!"). I would prefer a Lurker solution for the simple reason that people get suddenly hurt and that breaks the illusion - the illusion itself and the attempt to deceive someone.

[Dys Dogeater]

I did mean true seeing (which is also a talent). I'm not really happy with the solution as you sketched ("Gaze upon me and suffer!"). I would prefer a Lurker solution for the simple reason that people get suddenly hurt and that breaks the illusion - the illusion itself and the attempt to deceive someone.

For what it is worth, I agree with you. In a small way my other work has already severely diminished the power of the true seeing divination sphere talent. It is completely useless against glamors, It won't help with disguises or invisibility in any way. Artisan Figments offsets the discrepancy (a very small amount) in will save vs. bonus to will save against illusions. It is a step in the right direction but not a full solution to the problem. I for the record am confirming that I see this as a problem.

Realize however that this problem is ultimately the product of almost 20 years of trump cards, played atop trump cards on top of older trump cards. It is the result of arms race power creep. Now true seeing (as the fey adept) mentions many things specifically as what it works on. There are 2 common ways to deal with this.

1) Call trueseeing out specifically as something that an illusion ability is unaffected by/counters in much the same way that it has already done. This will work fine until someone uses the second option.

2) Create something that is ALMOST the same thing it counters but works slightly differently and circumvents it. This will work fine until the next guy comes along and uses the first option.

To get a bit meta here I would prefer to handle this the way an illusionist would and take neither path and instead create a soft countering 3rd option. The escalation of force only begets the further escalation of force. The appearance of escalation however or rendering a thing unsustainable or inefficient within the existing framework leaves nothing to counter.

I promise you, the tools are there and not just in the illusion sphere or the tricksters handbook. As far as the ones in tricksters handbook I can suggest:

Arcane Arrestment: Nothing under this effect has descriptors including the descriptor "Illusion" "polymorph" and "transmuted" therefore nothing affected will interact with true seeing in any way.

Ocular Oblivion: They can see through illusions but that requires the ability to SEE and they are treated as being blind and having a sensory range of 0.

Spell Jamming: A non-suppression option that creates an automatic failure chance for spells, supernatural, sphere effects and spell like. Unfortunately true seeing (fey adept) does not specify what of these that it is but I imagine that it must be one of them.

Shadow Infusion: Carefully worded that things that ignore illusions are only half as effective. Against a shadow infusion illusion they (much like lurker in darkness) will still have to make a perception check against your disguise, invisibility (or whatever) but you only get half the bonus from your shadow infused disguise. I will try to come up with clearer language to make this more obvious if possible.

[Edit] UPDATE: I have added trueseeing to the table on fooling complex senses.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Isn’t the general rule that if an ability doesn’t specify, it’s (Ex)?

[Mehangel]

Isn’t the general rule that if an ability doesn’t specify, it’s (Ex)?

I believe there is a general rule that if it isn't specified that it is either a natural or extraordinary ability. However, Adam Meyers has stated that the majority of the Fey Adept's class features were meant to be Supernatural. Relevant Question Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21372566&postcount=1392); Response Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21410939&postcount=1428). Now I personally have a slightly different viewpoint on how each of the Fey Adept's class feature's should be classified (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21409956&postcount=1425)as, but that is not particularly relevant.

[Dys Dogeater]

Isn’t the general rule that if an ability doesn’t specify, it’s (Ex)?

That is likely true but definitely reckless in the case of the fey adept at least for more reasons than can be counted (but Mehangel already seems to have done most or all of that)


I personally have a slightly different viewpoint on how each of the Fey Adept's class feature's should be classified as, but that is not particularly relevant.

That is a good listing, that should likely be errata the only points of disagreement I find with that list are minor and largely on the basis of implied fluff and thematic consistency.

[Dys Dogeater]

Firstly thank you all again for helping make this a great book. I am really enjoying hearing your ideas and input. Some minor and major updates have been made yesterday and today, the most notable update has been to the illusionist guide.

Take a look at the updated illusionist guide for insights into:

Every devious idea I have ever had using illusions to manipulate, torment, annoy and control.
The underhanded and secret purpose of all those talents, feats and tricks that you suspected were useless.
Owing the battlefield as the stage your puppets dance and then die upon.
Unchaining your illusions adding a personal touch of flair or style.
Suggestions for DMs and players to better explain or communicate how NPCs and enemies should react to illusions.
Doing away with "obvious signs of trickery" and applying a model of interaction and investigation.

As always looking forward to your questions, comments, concerns, compunctions and even your complaints.

[Dys Dogeater]

In another round of updates, archetypes have been re-imagined as rogue talents and casting traditions. This will allow them to stack with pretty much any and all other archetypes without loosing out on all their cool functionality as "MacGyver mages".

This also makes room for a new archetype for the symbiat that I initially cut for space reasons. The operative is a "black ops" war mage leading the party in shadow strikes or false flag attacks behind enemy lines.

And as always thank you for your continued input.

[Saffron-sama]

The session toke place prior to the instantaneous, concentration, extended casting update of the feat.

The character is a 1st level incanter (Mage archetype with creation magic educqtion), with the Forge Earth talent. I will apply the extended casting to it since it should not effect the outcome to much. Forge Earth is a instantaneous talent that cost 1 sp, it area is a 5' radius at first level raising or lowering the ground by 5'. Those it rakes two casting to create a comfortable ceiling.
Lets assume a 12 hour workday, so 7200 rounds. Taking 2 rounds to cast it once and 2 casting to make a 10' cube. Adding in the 10% failure chance to the first division (3600 casting means only 3240 work). Means that for the underground palace I can add 1620 10' cubes a day which is more then enough to make a great space for a palace / dungeon.

I can make the furnishings using Forge which can be cast 3240 times including spell failure in a 12 hour period.

I did add traps of my own design but Mudra had little true effect on them mainly using Wondrous Wardrobe did.
I hopes this helps.
Mudra (Drawback)
Prerequisites: Somatic Casting, Extended Casting.
Benefit: You have discovered that specific body movements unlock magical potential. You may as a full-round action gain temporary spell points equal to the number of consecutive rounds spent performing mystic gestures (maximum 1 round +1 round per 5 HD). In addition, increase your spell failure chance by 10% per temporary spell point you possess granted by this feat. Possessing no spell failure counts as possessing 0% spell failure for the purpose of this feat. These temporary spell points dissipate one round after you cease making gestures. Temporary spell points granted by his feat can only be used on sphere effects with instantaneous durations or are being maintained via concentration. Temporary spell points granted by this feat also cannot be used on Life or Conjuration sphere effects.

[Mithril Leaf]

What is the actual design intent of the Mudra feat? Because it seems like it keeps getting put into weird boxes as a response to pointing out usage cases, but what should it actually be used for? Instantaneous still allows the full allotment of any permanent effects from Nature and higher level Creation. Plus it allows basically any Warp stuff you ever want to do.

[Dys Dogeater]

What is the actual design intent of the Mudra feat? Because it seems like it keeps getting put into weird boxes as a response to pointing out usage cases, but what should it actually be used for? Instantaneous still allows the full allotment of any permanent effects from Nature and higher level Creation. Plus it allows basically any Warp stuff you ever want to do.

While I will be the first to admit that it needed (and likely still does) adjustments and tweeks. Mudra was not altered because of how it was being used and generally speaking most of the things pointed out by you and others are exactly what I intended it for.

So here are the purposes I feel it serves:

Provides a thematic and mechanical ability to represent classic ninja/anime tropes of efficiently using spiritual power with perfect positioning or other sorts of body control in place of expending such energies as brute force.

Representing the idea of magic being as much a "tool" as it is a "weapon". Giving players that get a thrill from problem solving with limited resources (like myself) the ability to offset the cost (and inspire the use/selection) of talents and abilities for their utilitarian features. Their magic is less useful, accessible and efficient in combat so the play style of the character becomes one of preparation, positioning ambushes or avoidance (you know... like a ninja).

Illusion sphere is likely one of the most demanding spheres in talents, actions and sp. Providing alternatives to SP expenditure allows low casters that would benefit from it the most (sneaky types) an option to offset that cost and get some real millage out of their very small investment.

Inversely coupled with some of the other builds/abilities mudra allows for a different play style with its own challenges. I hope I'm the only one who loves the idea of having the latitude/resources (when being patient careful and clever) to treat many combat encounters as a tactical puzzle instead of a hack and slash orgy. Yes you can use powerful abilities for free but are you going to spend 3+ full rounds of combat doing nothing but getting a free teleport at a decent range and taking people with you? Only in the most dire circumstances would you even consider that a viable option and if you do and it pays off that sounds like an epic story about how your patience and tactical risk assessment saved a party. I would (and do if you look at my signature) gloat about something like that forever.

[Mithril Leaf]

While I will be the first to admit that it needed (and likely still does) adjustments and tweeks. Mudra was not altered because of how it was being used and generally speaking most of the things pointed out by you and others are exactly what I intended it for.

So here are the purposes I feel it serves:

Provides a thematic and mechanical ability to represent classic ninja/anime tropes of efficiently using spiritual power with perfect positioning or other sorts of body control in place of expending such energies as brute force.

Representing the idea of magic being as much a "tool" as it is a "weapon". Giving players that get a thrill from problem solving with limited resources (like myself) the ability to offset the cost (and inspire the use/selection) of talents and abilities for their utilitarian features. Their magic is less useful, accessible and efficient in combat so the play style of the character becomes one of preparation, positioning ambushes or avoidance (you know... like a ninja).

Illusion sphere is likely one of the most demanding spheres in talents, actions and sp. Providing alternatives to SP expenditure allows low casters that would benefit from it the most (sneaky types) an option to offset that cost and get some real millage out of their very small investment.

Inversely coupled with some of the other builds/abilities mudra allows for a different play style with its own challenges. I hope I'm the only one who loves the idea of having the latitude/resources (when being patient careful and clever) to treat many combat encounters as a tactical puzzle instead of a hack and slash orgy. Yes you can use powerful abilities for free but are you going to spend 3+ full rounds of combat doing nothing but getting a free teleport at a decent range and taking people with you? Only in the most dire circumstances would you even consider that a viable option and if you do and it pays off that sounds like an epic story about how your patience and tactical risk assessment saved a party. I would (and do if you look at my signature) gloat about something like that forever.

See I'm very on board with all of those, the main issue is just how hard it is to allow things like making temporary Illusions to distract people while not allowing stuff like having the whole party have pretty hefty buffs. It's a tricky one.

[Mehangel]

I think that the problem with Mudra is that people will likely only spend their actual spell points during combat, and utilize the Mudra feat outside of combat (where time is not so much an issue).

[Dys Dogeater]

I hopes this helps.


It definitely does, and thank you. This will be long and I am sorry for the novel.

That makes sense and is definitely more than a bit much. That is a real game changer. Not sure if I personally would go so far as to call it a game "breaker" but definitely could annoy a GM or disrupt a campaign. I do kinda have to ask however as a 1st lv Incanter with sphere spec you get what 5 talents unless you took sphere drawbacks?

So Creation, forge, nature, forge earth, expanded materials... what does this character do IN combat? (please tell me you role play him as a pacifist, coward or benevolent dictator of subterranean rodents, it will really make my day)

I'm not balking at the idea of an eminent sod home and caves interior design mage (I actually like it in a weird way). This sounds like heavy investment (in both talents and time) and a level of specialization in something relatively mundane to the point that it verges on being a post modern statement (actually... never mind this is exactly the sort of thing I would do).

As a preemptive caveat I am going to admit that just because something can already be done does not make it okay. It does, however add a bit of context and force the question of is the issue the outcome or the method. So could you already get that amount of digging done for 0 sp? Yep, your build that I have deemed "The mole king" is actually with regard to digging less efficient than a telekinesis sphere + powerful TK. No mudra required. (some gms may rule that you need telekinetic tools also) so another way to get that level of work done for 0 sp is trade powerful TK for TK tools and select overcharge in place of mudra. This gets twice as efficient as the mudra method. As an added bonus you can batter people with object controlled by your mind while outside of the mole kingdom.

So with regard to digging (and only the digging) I am inclined to believe that while it is impressive in its own right mudra is not to blame for that outcome. I don't see a problem with it, I personally would allow it and commend you on your creativity. I am however, not the GM of the world (/end implied Oberoni fallacy)

Now on to forge for free. Yep I could see that getting out of hand too. Given its limitation on crude objects I can't imagine what you would have made (sounds like stone/dirt chairs and tables) perhaps some heavy things that fall on intruders who would dare to invade the mole kingdom. I strongly suspect that this also could have been done almost as well with TK tools at this low of a level. I guess this is at higher levels pretty scary for pokey metal things as opposed to stone ones. Also would allow you to use fabricate for free by the time you qualify for it but that is an advanced talent for a reason (chock another one up for the implied Oberoni fallacy).

So, with everything you have come up with the abuse seems (to me at least) to be a situational issue based on the game and GM. Nothing you have described helps you kill even a lowly goblin unless of course you go H.H. Holmes on him and disguise the mole kingdom as a bed and breakfast. Without more information it also sounds like you are severely crippled in your murder hobo functionality in favor of being a craftsman of exquisite holes. Mudra at worst needs a note as a warning about the potential annoyance of magical construction workers, farmers using witchcraft, assembly line sorcery and Invokers of interior design.

I doubt you would have brought it up or even called it an issue if it had not at least annoyed your GM so that is at least one person that is comfortable with a nice familiar, safe and completely reasonable magical grenade launcher with infinite ammo over the genocidal horrors enabled by magical steam shovel with infinite gas. Not making fun of anyone for their preferences or making lite of their fears (well I am but it is genuinely friendly sarcasm) but I think a great deal of the concern over this idea is rooted more in expected convention of everything in pathfinder being related or leveraged in some way into overt force or violence. From a narrative or fiction standpoint I think your mole king mage is far more interesting and has equal right to dig his life away as the sorcerer that eventually comes along and murders him by collapsing his tunnel fortress in on him with a single standard action and a spell point.

TLDR: I'll make a note to the effect that it is annoying and may need GM oversight in some games.

[Dys Dogeater]

See I'm very on board with all of those, the main issue is just how hard it is to allow things like making temporary Illusions to distract people while not allowing stuff like having the whole party have pretty hefty buffs. It's a tricky one.

Yep it is a bit of hard mode, it forces you to be clever and have foresight as a player. That said it is a bit of a read but the illusionist guide while not explicitly mentioning mudra has a great deal of concepts that I don't think most people have considered. Specifically those regarding setting up ambushes is a great starting point for developing a strategy for overcoming some of those setbacks.

Example: you are invisible all/most of the time (if you arn't invisible all or most of the time what are you even using mudra for anyways?) Take your time cast your illusions of "nothing" in advance for reduced cost (again using mudra obviously).

When the fight breaks out you have already done the casting now you only need to spend a standard to alter the illusion into distraction/control/damage. Better still have them do it automatically using programed illusions. Congratulations you just set up an ambush delivered hot and fresh to their door in less than a minute instead of having them walk into it.

This makes tricks rough, but guess what you are getting most everything else a discount when out of combat perhaps spend your hoarded spell points on the talented trickster talent and still have enough actions to run around and knock some teeth in.

In regard to the entire party having pretty hefty buffs that has been fixed (at least at low levels of play) pretty much the entire time it has been a drawback feat. It only works on concentration effects. The talent investment for mass/multi target buffs is a good soft cap on what things you can do for the whole party. CL 7 to use alteration on a party of 4 and still losing an action to maintain concentration.

I just realized another loophole, Ill try to have that patched before anyone else notices lol.

Eventually I will give up on trying to make this janky but cool idea work... but today is not that day.

[Saffron-sama]

The Gm was not all that annoyed he just broght up the concerns that a 1st levels character could sell his services to cities to build large walls around them for large amounts of gold. In the campaign we are in now this is not a big deal since their is no magic items.

So Creation, forge, nature, forge earth, expanded materials... what does this character do IN combat? (please tell me you role play him as a pacifist, coward or benevolent dictator of subterranean rodents, it will really make my day)
Well I think I need to take Feats for Beastmastery combat sphere and Broad Skills. We will invade the surface world, eventually but for now I will expand my kingdom.

The things in the spoiler are a bit off topic so, but since you asked about the character "personality" and you like the trap plays. Hey maybe it will give you an idea of something to do for a clever and patient character.

The character does have a bunch more talents due to his race"s". Since the group uses a 3rd party book which makes Planar touch races as templates instead. During character creation you roll a d20 on a nat 20 yo may have one. Then you roll again, the group is generally fine with this. Mark my characters background I got a template free and rolled a 20 during building so i technically have three races and we have a thing about needing to replace spell like abilities on races. One gives me 2 extra nature talents (houri, and yes the character is one of the only male houri), tiefling grants me a destruction talent and Djinni-kin (from the book) grants me creation.

The character is as pacifist as a world with monsters can be. Thats largely because we outright removed alignment and goblins or red dragons could be nice folks. Then again when the young green dragon (cr 8 one) was threatening to eat my bones after killing my conjuration I used Forge Earth to trap me inside its lair and it outside while I set some traps.

The first was a pressureized section due to Forge earth trapping a 10' by 10' by 5' air in between two spots (2' between the first and second forge earths, I used sustenance to fill the space with flour and had a Unseen Servant spread the flour in the air. With a command to use flint and steel to set it off. It did like 4D6 damage.
Next trap used Wondrous Wardrobe to anchor a 10' stone cube with the trigger when dragon passes here fall. Tons of spider silk scarves to hold while waiting. In the moment it was based on the crushing stone trap which does like 16D6 damage. Thats whats in my mole hill now a bunch of stone drop traps.

[Mithril Leaf]

Yep it is a bit of hard mode, it forces you to be clever and have foresight as a player. That said it is a bit of a read but the illusionist guide while not explicitly mentioning mudra has a great deal of concepts that I don't think most people have considered. Specifically those regarding setting up ambushes is a great starting point for developing a strategy for overcoming some of those setbacks.

Example: you are invisible all/most of the time (if you arn't invisible all or most of the time what are you even using mudra for anyways?) Take your time cast your illusions of "nothing" in advance for reduced cost (again using mudra obviously).

When the fight breaks out you have already done the casting now you only need to spend a standard to alter the illusion into distraction/control/damage. Better still have them do it automatically using programed illusions. Congratulations you just set up an ambush delivered hot and fresh to their door in less than a minute instead of having them walk into it.

This makes tricks rough, but guess what you are getting most everything else a discount when out of combat perhaps spend your hoarded spell points on the talented trickster talent and still have enough actions to run around and knock some teeth in.

In regard to the entire party having pretty hefty buffs that has been fixed (at least at low levels of play) pretty much the entire time it has been a drawback feat. It only works on concentration effects. The talent investment for mass/multi target buffs is a good soft cap on what things you can do for the whole party. CL 7 to use alteration on a party of 4 and still losing an action to maintain concentration.

I just realized another loophole, Ill try to have that patched before anyone else notices lol.

Eventually I will give up on trying to make this janky but cool idea work... but today is not that day.

My issue isn't with trying to make it useful. It's that as is you can basically do any instantaneous effect out of combat for free. It's arguably still too strong, although my personal balance point says that it was honestly probably fine initially (before even the ability to use it for effects with hour durations was removed) because in general Spheres is really bad for buffing.

[Dys Dogeater]

The first was a pressureized section due to Forge earth trapping a 10' by 10' by 5' air in between two spots (2' between the first and second forge earths, I used sustenance to fill the space with flour and had a Unseen Servant spread the flour in the air. With a command to use flint and steel to set it off. It did like 4D6 damage.
Next trap used Wondrous Wardrobe to anchor a 10' stone cube with the trigger when dragon passes here fall. Tons of spider silk scarves to hold while waiting. In the moment it was based on the crushing stone trap which does like 16D6 damage. Thats whats in my mole hill now a bunch of stone drop traps.

... Are you me?

Otherwise, I am glad your GM is cool with it. I am not pretending it is a non-issue or passing the buck for it to be handled at the table but generally speaking in a world where people like your character exist it is almost absurd to assume that your talents are unique. You can't possibly be the only "construction mage" and given your level you are likely no where near the best one either. Just like any other job or skill that becomes redundant in an economy pouted by magic or burgeoning technology a character wanting to build walls for a large city would hilariously probably end up dealing with a bunch of senseless bureaucracy and being forced to join a union as a severely underpaid apprentice construction mage because he can only move dirt very slowly.

This is a premise, prompt or opportunity for a unique tale. It makes me sad sometimes to know that people don't embrace these sorts of weird (and largely harmless) things as inspiration and instead view them as unfounded threats in need of repair. Again, kudos to you, kudos to your GM and all hail the mole king!

[khadgar567]

you know mudra is perfect hybrid drawback for both spheres of power and spheres of might since the whole must perform special taolu to cast spell how about also give back martial focus to since the fluff of the drawback perfectly suits it.

[Dys Dogeater]

you know mudra is perfect hybrid drawback for both spheres of power and spheres of might since the whole must perform special taolu to cast spell how about also give back martial focus to since the fluff of the drawback perfectly suits it.

That is a good point, i don't THINK it will break anything and is more than fitting for what mudra is meant to be and exactly who it is supposed to be for. That should be added in one way or another in a few days.

Ever since this conversation about making money off infinite use abilities an old idea has resurfaced and been rolling around in my head. It seems that there is at least an implication that it is wanted if not needed. So, I will focus test for interest here it here with the expectation that someone within the forum hivemind will simply tell me that someone somewhere has already covered this.

There are plenty of settings where magic (or at least low magic) is ubiquitous. Many modern concepts are replicated in a dark age/Renaissance/industrial revolution setting with magic. In such settings you cant swing a dead caster without hitting 7 other people with at least cantrips. For a few examples that evoke this world concept: Avatar (the cartoon not the CG movie), Full Metal Alchemist, Almost any Piers Anthony Novel, Almost any anime with some combination of magic + school/war/technology/cooking/sports/craftsmanship, and even Harry Potter.

So here is the pitch at least 2 New sub-skills: Profession (Service Mage) and Perform (Illusions). Synergy between Illusion and perform has already been requested more than once. The issues brought up by Saffron-Sama and my response minimizing the problem to that of a "magical construction worker" are addressed by a Profession (Service Mage) skill check.

You can definitely make money off of magic but if it is that easy to do the payment for "spellcasting services" is disproportionate (it also occurred to me that this is potentially a problem with all spheres of power that are infinite use anyways). Profession is about the quality of your work and attention to detail while performing repetitive tasks even if that repetitive task is bending or breaking the laws of nature with pure will.

Perform (Illusions) is obvious in its intent.

If these are even remotely desired by anyone other than me and not well covered elsewhere, I will add them (likely with feat/talent support). It furthers my general idea of magic as a "tool" and have already touched on these ideas in different less abstracted ways with some of my illusion talents.

At least one idea for every sphere imagined as a mundane "job" (made as meaningless and dead-end as possible for comedic effect):

Illusionists as cinema projectors or serving as a telegraph/radio/phone network operators
Divination/fate is basically the entire stock market
Divination training is required for every detective on the police force
Conjured creatures and familiars run the postal service
Destruction mages reduced to heat and A/C technicians
Destruction mages serving as army reserve enlisted Artillarymen or Gunners mate in the royal navy
Creation mages doing factory line assembly or construction
Nature mages handle farming or professional lawn care
Telekinetic teamsters and mass transit or as elevator attendants
Protection mages obviously run the Occupational Safety and Health Organization
Warp mages handling parcels/pizza/paper delivery
Death sphere used by morticians and funerary services
War mages run the military officers or are weekend shift supervisors at the local chain restaurant
Life sphere nurses and trauma surgeons
Mind sphere therapists and social workers
Life casters being the entire medical and pharma complex
Life sphere as a job site first aid trainer or school nurse
Alteration specialists doing field biology research
Alteration casters shrinking themselves or others down to do micro fabrication and repair
Fate sphere professional gamblers, fortune tellers
Fate sphere public defenders, court bailiffs or any sort of rules oriented soulless bureaucrats.
Enhancement sphere personal trainers or high school gym teachers
Light sphere mages as lamp lighters
Weather sphere mages handling overseas transport with wind power
Weather magic used for agricultural purposes
Dark sphere information security and privacy specialists or as a living sun shade/parasol for self important nobility.

Prestidigitation/cantrips feat for: waitstaff, sanitation engineers, bar tenders, criers/intersection advertisers, lawn care management, dry cleaners, bathroom attendants or refrigerated storage.

[khadgar567]

That is a good point, i don't THINK it will break anything and is more than fitting for what mudra is meant to be and exactly who it is supposed to be for. That should be added in one way or another in a few days.

Ever since this conversation about making money off infinite use abilities an old idea has resurfaced and been rolling around in my head. It seems that there is at least an implication that it is wanted if not needed. So, I will focus test for interest here it here with the expectation that someone within the forum hivemind will simply tell me that someone somewhere has already covered this.

There are plenty of settings where magic (or at least low magic) is ubiquitous. Many modern concepts are replicated in a dark age/Renaissance/industrial revolution setting with magic. In such settings you cant swing a dead caster without hitting 7 other people with at least cantrips. For a few examples that evoke this world concept: Avatar (the cartoon not the CG movie), Full Metal Alchemist, Almost any Piers Anthony Novel, Almost any anime with some combination of magic + school/war/technology/cooking/sports/craftsmanship, and even Harry Potter.

So here is the pitch at least 2 New sub-skills: Profession (Service Mage) and Perform (Illusions). Synergy between Illusion and perform has already been requested more than once. The issues brought up by Saffron-Sama and my response minimizing the problem to that of a "magical construction worker" are addressed by a Profession (Service Mage) skill check.

You can definitely make money off of magic but if it is that easy to do the payment for "spellcasting services" is disproportionate (it also occurred to me that this is potentially a problem with all spheres of power that are infinite use anyways). Profession is about the quality of your work and attention to detail while performing repetitive tasks even if that repetitive task is bending or breaking the laws of nature with pure will.

Perform (Illusions) is obvious in its intent.

If these are even remotely desired by anyone other than me and not well covered elsewhere, I will add them (likely with feat/talent support). It furthers my general idea of magic as a "tool" and have already touched on these ideas in different less abstracted ways with some of my illusion talents.

At least one idea for every sphere imagined as a mundane "job" (made as meaningless and dead-end as possible for comedic effect):

Illusionists as cinema projectors or serving as a telegraph/radio/phone network operators
Divination/fate is basically the entire stock market
Divination training is required for every detective on the police force
Conjured creatures and familiars run the postal service
Destruction mages reduced to heat and A/C technicians
Destruction mages serving as army reserve enlisted Artillarymen or Gunners mate in the royal navy
Creation mages doing factory line assembly or construction
Nature mages handle farming or professional lawn care
Telekinetic teamsters and mass transit or as elevator attendants
Protection mages obviously run the Occupational Safety and Health Organization
Warp mages handling parcels/pizza/paper delivery
Death sphere used by morticians and funerary services
War mages run the military officers or are weekend shift supervisors at the local chain restaurant
Life sphere nurses and trauma surgeons
Mind sphere therapists and social workers
Life casters being the entire medical and pharma complex
Life sphere as a job site first aid trainer or school nurse
Alteration specialists doing field biology research
Alteration casters shrinking themselves or others down to do micro fabrication and repair
Fate sphere professional gamblers, fortune tellers
Fate sphere public defenders, court bailiffs or any sort of rules oriented soulless bureaucrats.
Enhancement sphere personal trainers or high school gym teachers
Light sphere mages as lamp lighters
Weather sphere mages handling overseas transport with wind power
Weather magic used for agricultural purposes
Dark sphere information security and privacy specialists or as a living sun shade/parasol for self important nobility.

Prestidigitation/cantrips feat for: waitstaff, sanitation engineers, bar tenders, criers/intersection advertisers, lawn care management, dry cleaners, bathroom attendants or refrigerated storage.
And they say tipptyverse is imposible.

[Mehangel]

So here is the pitch at least 2 New sub-skills: Profession (Service Mage) and Perform (Illusions). Synergy between Illusion and perform has already been requested more than once. The issues brought up by Saffron-Sama and my response minimizing the problem to that of a "magical construction worker" are addressed by a Profession (Service Mage) skill check.

The problem with writing up a new category for the Perform skill is that classes like Bard would also deserve to have corresponding options when it comes to it (mainly when it comes to versatile performance). Also, I don't think I would call the category (illusions), but rather instead be called (stage magic). I would then perhaps have versatile performance be tied to Use Magic Device (who knew that the wand's verbal activation was hokus pokus or abra kadabra?).

Profession as far as I can tell have no such class feature and thus are not so limited in such regard (I have no problem with people creating new categories for the Profession skill).

[Dys Dogeater]

And they say tipptyverse is imposible.

Is that a vote for or against?

Also I had to look that up and I am happy to know that I am not the only one who has contemplated the implications of magic being around from the dawn of time and how that would render society completely alien to anything we know or understand.

[Scowling Dragon]

Well I wouldn't mind more worldbuilding options.

[AlienFromBeyond]

Ever since this conversation about making money off infinite use abilities an old idea has resurfaced and been rolling around in my head. It seems that there is at least an implication that it is wanted if not needed. So, I will focus test for interest here it here with the expectation that someone within the forum hivemind will simply tell me that someone somewhere has already covered this.
It's not exactly a new or unique idea, but more importantly I'm not really sure how it all fits in the illusion handbook (as it's more of a general topic). It's already quite large and has some non-illusion stuff in it as it is, adding a whole sort of worldbuilding section seems over the top. Don't go trying to do too much and feature creep and bloat the book, stay focused and refine what you already have to make it as good as it can be.

[Mehangel]

It's not exactly a new or unique idea, but more importantly I'm not really sure how it all fits in the illusion handbook (as it's more of a general topic). It's already quite large and has some non-illusion stuff in it as it is, adding a whole sort of worldbuilding section seems over the top. Don't go trying to do too much and feature creep and bloat the book, stay focused and refine what you already have to make it as good as it can be.

This is a very good point, the handbook is already massive enough as it is and should remain focused in the Illusion sphere.

[Dys Dogeater]

Good point. Going down my own weird rabbit holes is enough, no need to take others down with me.

[khadgar567]

Is that a vote for or against?

Also I had to look that up and I am happy to know that I am not the only one who has contemplated the implications of magic being around from the dawn of time and how that would render society completely alien to anything we know or understand.
nope but thats how you start to build tipptyverse by making magic so common that once in a blue moon non magic guy basicly screwed. tippty verse in your style uses warp to pair the cities and use all the other spheres to automatize the every need of the magical city until you can reilably pull 20th level camping in just the same city. like nature and weather sphere to keep city fed.

[EldritchWeaver]

(To Saffron-sama:)


... Are you me?

Uses the same avatar - could be a second account of Dys. :P

[Dys Dogeater]

So some of the questions/concerns I am getting on the document are along the lines of why is this in an illusion handbook? I figured while I was answering that I would take the opportunity to expound upon some of my goals in this project as well as my personal and design philosophy. So wall of text incoming, you have been warned. (also, I'm sorry)

Most of the things you find and wonder if they belong are usually there for one or more of the following reasons:

1)It is part of something else more specifically related to illusion. Generally this is a result of something that was part of a larger package with an overall theme of illusion that was broken down into smaller parts to allow it to be applied in other ways or be built off by later work. I like options more than I like packages and that is why I have more feats and talents than the other books but less archetypes. If at all possible I will break things down to the smallest constituent parts.

2)It is a expanding or clarifying what I think illusion can or should be.

3)It is something I think illusion should not be. Traditionally, however it is and because of that alone still deserves options, attention or expansion. Some of the customarily illusion spells do not mesh well with (what I hope are) improvements to consistency. Still, I feel it would be a disservice in not expanding much loved staples. Conversely it would also be a disservice to go tampering too much with the classics to make them fit within the bigger picture.

4)It is in the spirit of illusion in that it is a very versatile but lower powered concept that tests player skill and in the moment problem solving more than brute force or character building. These things still apply to and can be used with illusions, (generally with great synergy) but also have far broader applications.

Those things said "why?" and "should it be?" are different questions and I am as always grateful for your help in determining the latter.

With regard to that, play tester Paul Fossgreen brings up a very legitimate concern when he stated:

"... it modifies a sense" seems like a huge stretch to justify illusion getting even more toys. I get how illusion can affect a sense so you perceive less (Silence/Invisibility) or make you perceive more than what is there (classic illusionary wall), but this is making your sense better at what it already does instead of altering what input it gets in the first place... in reference to the Amplify Senses talent. Concerns such as this also apply to other talents that add a new functionality or application that cannot be (obviously) compared to spells and abilities that already exist.

The difference between "stretching" to justify and "expanding" an idea is always a hard call based largely on personal opinion and i would like to hear all of your opinions about where the limit is but more importantly where it should be.

A few personal opinions on illusion:

I feel that if it has anything to do with the empirical, sensation or observation there is a place for it in illusion.

Given, "anything to do with the empirical, sensation or observation" covers a lot and admittedly has a great deal of overlap with many if not all other spheres. My feeling on Illusion is and always has been a multi tool that lets you fake your way through or half-ass anything/everything if you are clever enough to figure out how to apply it.

Illusion to even remotely function in the variety of ways it needs to must also very high fluff and presumptive in implementation. Unfortunately it is also often presumptive in (lack of) mechanical representation.For examples of things frequently assumed and have no existing comprehensive guidelines for look at the "Purpose Driven Figments" suggestion in the illusionist guide.

The full version is too much for here, I litterally have a 6 page long document just for:
A rambling diatribe about a significant percentage of all illusions being just RaI fluff (incredibly lite on the "R")
Things that shouldn't be illusions but are.
Things that should be illusions but aren't.
Assumptions that must be made for illusions to work.
All the assumptions that I (and I think most people) make without realizing.
I know that using fluff to justify something is a weak position, but also really all I have to work with in most cases regarding illusion.

Illusions definitely can create, conceal, distort and alter sensations. Most would agree that this is fair game.

But can they...

Yes. Ventriloquism, Shifted Steps, Displacement, Misdirection.
Yes. Mirror Image, Clarion Call, Greater Magic Aura, Project Image.
Yes. Color Spray, Wall of Nausea, Phantasmal Killer, Lunar Veil, Illusory Poison
Yes. Blend, Blur
Yes (by way of trigger). Magic Mouth, Programed Image

There is definitely a stretch here but I don't think it is "huge". That stretch (or expansion) is ultimately:
1) None of the cited spells that move sensations bring them closer only away from something.
2) None of the cited spells that multiply/amplify a sensation except Project Image do so in a "directed" or "targeted" way.

But back to the more specific concern: do you feel "reverse/inverted ventriloquism/shifted steps/clarion call/project image" is not within the powers of illusion? Why not? If it is within the powers of illusion what (if any) mechanical benefit would that grant?

Amplify senses is my answer to those questions.

As far as synesthesia that is strangely enough, nothing new. Just more sensible rules for a clever application (or munchkin) use of magic mouth/programed image that alerted you to things even though you personally have no actual way of being aware of them... because magic.

[khadgar567]

Snip
well thanks for the heart to heart talk mate

[Dys Dogeater]

well thanks for the heart to heart talk mate

Peace among worlds to you too, bro.

[Mithril Leaf]

Hmmmmmmmm...

Is there any way to word Mudra that would enable using it with things like Mystic Combats? There's probably other combat class features that would also fit.

[Dys Dogeater]

Hmmmmmmmm...

Is there any way to word Mudra that would enable using it with things like Mystic Combats? There's probably other combat class features that would also fit.

I am uncharacteristically busy as of late but slowly and surely making adjustments to things and going to apply them all at once.

Mudra seems to be a major sticking point and the criticism is fair so I am in the process of making changes to it already. I think the new version I am working on would have better synergy with mystic combat as well as anything and everything that runs on SP while being more thematically relevant. I have to accept that this requires removing the infinite use part (I know that infinite use was the best part but even I have to recognize that a cool idea is no excuse to skirt balance).

Is there anything specific you had in mind that you would like me to take into account while I prep for the rework?